We, The Muslim Americans

``I can’t think of another minority group as diverse in its views, attitudes, and extent of assimilation as American Muslims of Middle- and Southeast origin. I risk overgeneralization by lumping together a good number of countries with quite distinct cultures``

How about Organizing yourselves as `Pakistani-Americans` instead of `Muslim-Americans`? Has that thought crossed your mind? I doubt it.

Dear Ms. Shamim:

This was an excelllent essay, thoughtful and fun to read. To be Muslim and American, I hope that the day will not come when the choice Muslim or American is imposed upon Muslims of America - imposed is the correct way to view the possibility of such a ``choice`` - because overwhelmingly those Muslims, not born here have made a conscious choice to be Americans - only a panicked government seeking to score political gains, or one under the influence of religio-political ideas hostile to Islam, will be responsible for such an imposition. Political involvement and resolution to ensure such a choice shall never enter public discourse, is an imperative for Muslims of America.

``su//cks to be a Muslim..`` Yes, it can, it has, but one can take responsiblity, that is to say become aware of what being a Muslim means, and not allow someone else`s defintion, or attititude or fear, define you - but one can`t just be a Muslim by virtue of birth, after becoming an adult, it will become a choice, one which I hope many more Muslims will make the effort, to make it a reasoned choice.

anne:

…about time you made an appearance here:)…(and i know it is not you but the chowk staff should be reprimanded for the formatting…wonder if they can fix it?)

…much has been written and would continue to be written about post nau-dou-gyaarah trauma…and you have expressed the immigrant muslim parent’s p-o-v very well…but!

…but why … yeah that is my query with the american media…i feel we have been inundated with the hows and wheres and whens but by and large the majority of the journalists and experts have been deafeningly silent on the whys of the bombing…one can be charitable and excuse the tube-journos but one is hard pressed to find excuses for the print media….and unless they …and we examine the issues seriously and then come to a consensus all other measures would be seen as hogwash…like the indians and pakistanis with their isi and raw obsession i think the americans have found their al-qaeda lurking behind every dark corner…and speakling of al-qaeda…i remember the time when i was exposed to a baghdadi-qaeda!…now there is a loaded word for an arabic primer…

…then there is also the serious possibility that this is a well thought out plan…and under the guise of ‘terrorism’ the unilateral unipolar uniamerica wants to dominate the world for the next century…

…oh well…

lve,

t

ps: shall we spread some rumour about pulitzer;)

Ms. Shamim

Its a well written and balanced article-except a couple of points (May be you have already changed your mind from this thesis, after six moths down the road):

1. You say

``I risk overgeneralization by lumping together a good number of countries with quite distinct cultures, but I do so in response to the hostile and provocativeatmosphere evoked by Muslim leaders like Saddam Hussein, Ayatollah Khomeini, Zia-ul-Haq, and of course, Osama bin Laden. These men may speak (or have spoken) different languages, but their fanatic zealotry, oppressive tactics, and antagonism toward the West – all in the name of God – have blended them together into one big monstrous whole and rendered any differences irrelevant.``

Comment:

I wish this statement were true. On the contrary these monsters were created to give something American public to hate about. No reality has ever came so clear than this, post 9/11; although the part where you say ``These men may speak (or have spoken) different languages, but their fanatic zealotry........`` is still true.

2. You say:

``However, my faith in the intrinsic strength and basic essence of this country tells me that these are and will remain isolated incidents. My hope is that even if we do see a large-scale outpouring of anti-Muslim sentiment, there will be enough social and political resistance to counter it, and we will be fine in the end – or at least as fine as we were before September 11.``

Comments:

Unfortunately, this is just wishful thinking. The post 9/11, Roman era moves by US government, which have converted the rest of the world into just a big military outpost, will increase the level of violence towards the Americans and vice versa. As in past American government will attribute this violence and hatred to the religion and political ideologies of opponents-And this process is already in progress in full swing. I think we (as American Muslims and Americans) are heading towards more testing times.

Thanks Anne Shamim,

This is an incredible piece of writing that
should be distributed to as many Muslim American households as possible.

Ras

yasser is right through experience have u ever seens articles published these days on middle eas issues ,``arab and muslim american groups....`` what islamists dont realize is that they are simple cam followers of arabs ..........please learn to develop a Pakistani American sense of nationality but i have yet to meet another person with these thoughts ....South Asian or Muslim American group activism is doomed not to benefit pakistan in anyway how many ``arab and muslim american groups`` denounced burning alive of of muslims gujurat? to my knowledge none only indian and pakistani groups did ....i wanna see jim zogby denounce muslim killings in kashmir chechyna turkestan india etc but he wont....

Re: author

“It sucs to be Muslim. Those were the words uttered by my fifteen-year-old son as we sat…2000 words… I didn’t have a worthwhile response for my son when he told me it sucked to be Muslim. But I think I’ll have him read this essay and hope …”

My advice – don’t bother reading this essay to your son. It will confuse the hell out of him. If after asking the question yourself, and attempting to answer it in a long article you still state, ‘I didn’t have a worthwhile response for my son…’ how do you think that HE will understand it? Instead, tell him that while religions may be great idea, far too many have died ‘protecting’ or ‘propagating’ them too. It is better to have a healthy dose of skepticism for any dogmatic thinking whether it is communism, and any my-way-or-the-highway religion.

fawad79 # 6

``....i wanna see jim zogby denounce muslim killings in kashmir chechyna turkestan india etc but he wont....``

fawad79, you should consider whether you harbor a deep streak of pan-Islamism similar to that of Hindutva that many Indians and Pakistanis rightly criticise. If that is what appeals to you most, you should follow your heart, but it shouldn`t be a matter merely of pragmatics (for example: I am not a pan-Islamist because Arabs are not. If they were, I would be delighted to be one too).

Whether one agrees with ylh or not, he is not an Islamist. He is concerned with the welfare of Pakistan. There are some others on Chowk who are Islamists. For them, Pakistan is merely a launching pad for the world-wide ummah.

This is not merely a matter of semantics. The implications of these differences are enormous. The two paths lead to two completely different kind of societies in Pakistan and elsewhere.

Given how we are brought up, this is not an easy choice to make. But you must make this choice very clearly for yourself if you seek any degree of clarity and integrity in your intellectual life.

temporal mian

... why ? ...you still ask why ?

``…but why … yeah that is my query with the american media…i feel we have been inundated with the hows and wheres and whens but by and large the majority of the journalists and experts have been deafeningly silent on the whys of the bombing…``

.... come on ! .... we all know why ...everyone and their one-legged sister has talked around and under this issue because of political correctness and other such nonsense....`` this is not a war against islam .. the muslims are good guys except for those who fly planes into tall buildings and ruin absolut with pomegrante juice `` ....... nobody is saying it on cnn but you don`t have to be too clever to read between the lines ...let me tell you what bill buckley has to say about this ....................but, before i do that, let me state it in plain dotted english :

.... alif: because the ideology that most muslims subscribe to is inherently hostile to modernity, moderation and everything and anything that can be labelled western, farangi, heathen or whatyoumayhaveit ..... kind of like the commie thing ....let`s call this ``irreconcible differences in ideology``

..... bay : most muslims are angry because they are miserable ....... some, like urstruly foam at the mouth, others simmer and seethe .... and they think they are miserable because the fat white baptist from arkansas ( and his jewish cousin from haifa) is persecuting them ...we love being victims ......let`s call this the ``persecution complex``

..... pay: most muslims are still peed off at losing cardoba and constantly whine about the mosque which has been turned into a church ..... of course, they also want to turn the church that was turned into a mosque and then into a museum, back to a mosque .... and let`s not even talk about mandars ...... so let`s call this thing, ``architectural deprivation``

.... ta`y:....most of us are lazy bums who would rather sit under the palm tree eating dates and then complain about the white man stealing our oil which we didn`t know was there in the first place ....of course, the malays complain about the chinese and the gujus complain about the hindoos and everyone blames it on the jews or the cia ........so let`s call this the ``old blame it on the other guy syndrome`` .......

.... this is not a complete list by any means, but i think you get the gist ....let me summarize :

- irreconcible differences in ideology

- persecution complex

- architectural deprivation

- the old blame it on the other guy syndrome

.... i am sure you won`t see alan keyes say this on msnbc, but you can bet that this is exactly what he is thinking - and he is not wrong inspite of being a black loudmouth fresh off the plantation ......

...... not to change the subject, but now we have another clown in khaki asking for a referendum to install himself as the master of the three ring circus ..... here we go again !.... blame it on the cia or the usda or the faa ... go on - i dare you! .....in a few years you will be asking the same question again - why? ...oh, but why? ....pray, tell me why?........ but before you blame the cia, read all the silly posts from gushing pakis like romair who think this guy is the greatest thing since gajar ka halwa .........

.... do you still want to know what william f buckley, a man who i greatly admire, inspite of his rumpled collar, has to say ?

``It is thought to be a sign of toleration to defer to Islam as simply another religion. It isn`t that. It is a form of condescension. Carefully selected, there are Koranic preachments that are consistent with civilized life. But on Sept. 11 we were looked in the face by a deed done by Muslims who understood themselves to be acting out Muslim ideals. It is all very well for individual Muslim spokesmen to assert the misjudgment of the terrorists, but the Islamic world is substantially made up of countries that ignore, or countenance or support terrorist activity.

Mustafa Kamal Uddin, a 32-year-old body-and-fender man in Karachi, explained it to a New York Times reporter. You see, he said, holy wars come about only when Allah has no other way to maintain justice, times like now. ``That is why Allah took out his sword`` on Sept. 11.

We demand to know: Who taught Mustafa Kamal Uddin to reason in that way, and the crowds in Karachi to support such thinking? Pending an answer to the question, and the unmistakable assumption by reputable Muslims of the responsibility to extirpate such misteaching, renounce modern Islam. Either restore the proper Allah -- or get ready for a holy war.``

...... and temporal mian, regardless of whose side hazrat khizer is on, the muslims will, and should, loose this holy war .........

salute!

Thank you for an excellent read, Ms Shamim. It is reassuring to see people express hope in anyone`s future, American or otherwise.

Look forward to reading more (and good luck to you as the conspiracy/paranoia unfolds on your board. . .)

Regards,

Aamir

Anne,

``But there are other intangible privileges too that so many of us take for granted: the freedom of thought and choice, the fostering of artistic and creative expression, the overall atmosphere of open-mindedness; the list is delightfully long and wonderfully complex.`` Isn`t that so true!

I liked it very much. As Ras said, this essay should be distributed widely in America. I know I`ll give it to a few people.

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Well said. These `Muslim American` Forums don`t concentrate on any Issues of Pakistan especially the Kashmir issue.

I remember when my proposal to include Kashmir on the forum of American Muslim Alliance was repeatedly shot down by the leadership, despite the fact that the leadership was almost entirely Pakistani American.

Arabs are a baneful influence, and though my heart goes out to the suffering of the palestinian people (as it does for the dead Israelis too), I will not lift a finger for the Palestinian cause until and unless Arabs take a more vocal stance on Kashmir.

-YLH

re shammi #7:

Couldn`t agree more. After reading the whole article, one fails to find any coherent theme or message. No wonder the kids here are so confused.

later

-sac

Anne Shamim,

A genuine issue raised.

However, economic migrants always have to pay a price. The value judgement involved is whether it`s too high !

My advice would be to tell your son to eat hot dogs, cheer touch-downs and home runs, and to integrate just as the Italian/Polish-Americans. It`s no use arguing over a `Muslim` identity when the prime motive for migration is economic and not to propogate one`s identity.

Reply #: 3 temporal

[…then there is also the serious possibility that this is a well thought out plan…and under the guise of ‘terrorism’ the unilateral unipolar uniamerica wants to dominate the world for the next century… ]

I don`t think that it was pre-planned, but that`s indeed how it has turned out. Given that America has embarked on an elaborate military course over women and children killed in WTC, but condones targeted killing of women and school children in Palestine which has actually accelerated after WTC. That does seem rather odd.

Rgds

``I do so in response to the hostile and provocative atmosphere evoked by Muslim leaders like Saddam Hussein, Ayatollah Khomeini, Zia-ul-Haq, and of course, Osama bin Laden. These men may speak (or have spoken) different languages, but their fanatic zealotry, oppressive tactics, and antagonism toward the West – all in the name of God – have blended them together into one big monstrous whole and rendered any differences irrelevant. ``

Zia-ul-Haq was, and is still is, one of the most adored men in the US govt. circles. His funeral had one of the highest no. of international attendees ever. George Schultz, the US Secretary of State, was sent as the official US rep. Zia is still a legend in the US military and cold war political circles (and in the journalistic circles amongst the journalists who actually went into Afghanistan). As far as the US was, and is, concerned, he alongwith the Afghans broke the back of the mighty USSR.

One can argue with the tactics used by Zia in fighting the Soviets, but the USSR`s actual destination was Karachi, not Kabul. And when they reached the Baluchistan border, they were a four hour tank ride away from the Arabian Sea. Once they entered Pakistan, India would have attacked simultaneously, and Pakistan would have been history. So the Afghanis basically fought, under the leadership of Zia and the, ``dreaded`` ISI agents, to protect Pakistan. And they did so very successfully, when the US had calculated that even its forces could not protect Pakistan, without a nuclear strike on the Soviet forces.

Where Zia screwed up was within Pakistan. He attempted to turn Pakistan into his own version of an Islamic state. But the Americans weren`t too bothered about that. Zia never showed, ``antagonism toward the West – all in the name of God.``

Saydam was the US blue-eyed boy also when he was attacking Iran. He was supplied with all kinds of weapons, including chemical weapons by NATO. It is only now that Saydam, for some reason, has gone nuts and has become anti-US.

Our good Ayotollah from Iran was anti-US from the get-go. No bones about it. While one cannot agree with the Ayotollah`s anti-US attitude, one has to agree with the general Irani anti-US attitude. After all, the US did get rid of a democratically elected Irani govt., and installed the Shah of Iran and his Savak on top of a complete Irani generation.

This brings us to our good friend OBL. OBL was on the US friendly list also, while he was fighting the filthy commies. He was even given US funds. But he seems to have gone nuts somewhere in between, and is now very anti-US.

And I wouldn`t put Zia (or Khomeni) on the list you have presented. His faults were at a much lower scale than the other two, and they weren`t at all directed towards the US. I would however place people like Ariel Sharon, and a few US foreign policymakers on that list with the other Muslim gentlemen.

Moral of the story: There is no reason for any Muslim in the US or anywhere to feel apologetic for any Muslim figure. Since many of these figures were actually funded by the US itself. And no one should be able to point to any of the people you have mentioned to sideline Muslims

Dear Ms. Shamim:

Great piece.

I understand your dilemma. I have raised four daughters and one son in the United States.

Here are a few suggestions.

One -- You two would have to do MUCH MORE GROWING UP -- than your growing children.

Two -- for heavens sake -- let your children MELT in the MELTING POT called the United States -- without GUILT -- with or without RELIGION.

Three -- always keep in mind -- this is NOT YOUR COUNTRY – your country is Pakistan.

This is your children`s country -- and your children`s children`s country.

Four -- Never choose for them -- let them choose whatever they want to choose by themselves -- allow them to make their own mistakes -- and let them deal with their own mistakes -- all by themselves.

Five -- let them talk back to you -- don`t be offended if they are rude to you -- don`t suppress their right of self expression -- INSIDE your house -- they will need it badly -- OUTSIDE your house.

It is a road full of heartache for immigrant parents -- but always console yourselves with the FACT -- this is NOT YOUR country – this is YOUR CHILDREN’S COUNTRY -- and your CHILDREN`S CHILDREN`S COUNTRY.

Best wishes.

Quote from cnn.com about Thursday`s bombing in Jerusalem:

``I was very close to him [the suicide bomber],`` a witness told The Associated Press. ``I saw him walking, looking here and there, and I saw he looked suspicious. I wanted to call someone, but I didn`t have time. Then he blew up. I saw arms and legs flying all over the place.``

What motivates a person to do that to himself? Food for serious thought. He was 22 yrs old, had a lot to look forward to.

Zeemax #17 & 10:

[…What motivates a person to do that to himself? Food for serious thought. He was 22 yrs old, had a lot to look forward to…]

…bet they are wrestling with this in war-room scenarios and cannot come up with any satisfactory answers…west’s dilemma…they can factor the enemy position, strength, available man and fire power and other operational tangibles in their reckoning…but how can they factor this intangible…the willingness to gamble away life…the kamikaze factor…

…of course the ‘momin’ calls it ‘eemaan’…and lesser mortals like me sometime wonder if it is all ‘faith’ that motivates them or hopelessness is a motivating factor...and to what degree…the bantustanisation and apathy from the entire world must give birth to this hopelessness…


hamidm 13:

…thanks…knew all about alif-bay…but that architectural-deprivation was a beauty...and here i thought it was real-estate-envy that was the cause of mother of all ills…shoo…move….get away….my fore-fathers lived here!…

…how can one fault Mustafa the body-maker when we have professors in isloo…long on beard and short on credentials writing papers on jinn-power?!…

rgds,

t

Hamidm

Alif, bay...accepted, it`s true of us and we must accept responsibility for our experience, however; it is only part of the ``why`` - Islamia is not exclusive, in drinking from a poisoned well - and this did not begin 9/11.

Seems to me neither Bill Buckley, nor any American in a official or responsible position has yet asked himself or herself, how is it that, in general, a peoples as conservative and generally as circumspect of authority as Muslims, and who just 40-50 years ago saw the USA as the power of light, of freedom, of anti-colonialism, of prime among those promoting ``fellowship`` - have come to see Americans in such a manner as those who carried out the attacks of 9/11 -

If Alif, bay... apply to Muslims, in general, I suggest that a derivative applies to Americans and the West in general - indeed it cannot apply to Islam and Muslims unless a version of it applies to the Americans and the West. Your analysis absolves Americans and the West in general of their responsibility for their relations with Islamia in general - if Muslism are carrying a ``persecution`` ``ignorance``, etc., cross, so to speak, will you not acknowledge that Americans in particular should examine their responsibility for their experience?

A war against islam itself, is a suicidal proposition for anyone proposing it; it`s most irresponsible. If a goal is to elicit agreement within Islamia for values such as an ``open`` society, ``rule of law``, ``committment to do least harm in the development and impementation of public policies``, then surely waging a war agisnt Islam and Muslims seems to be counter productive to achieving those goals.

i would like to know regular-chowk-crowd`s response on the following:

http://chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=fversey_mar0702&n=20#reply492

zeeemax:

``What motivates a person to do that to himself? Food for serious thought. He was 22 yrs old, had a lot to look forward to.``

zeemax, i met with 5 young ppl representing the palestinian territories over the last week and this was my gripe too..WHAT makes you guys do something as asinine as blow yourselves up...thats just plain crazy..one night at the bar where everyone hung out i had a major showdown with a young man from ramallah who has lived in a refugee camp almost all his life..he just kept on saying you dont understand and you cant and i said okay so explain im listening and he just kept on crying and saying you wont understand..i didnt like the palestinians much overall..they were too much into themselves..i still dont most of them...too cocky i felt..but i got down to talking with a palestinian christian girl on the second last day after which we mainly hung out together..you have to hear the stories and at the risk of sounding really lame here, see those people cry as they talk about a 7 year old sister blown in 6 pieces while going to school and a father picked up and not seen for till today and about how their moms are routinely SLAPPED in front of them at one check point after the other (a hundred and fifty checkpoints if u want to go from one place to another) every single day while they just stand and watch because they dont want to get kiked in the guts or be taken away, to understand the desperation that makes them blow themselves up to do something as stupid as make a small hole in a building that belongs to israel..such is the helplessness, frustration and level of desperation- theyre willing to do things like end their life (which is just plain madness) to kill people who are associated through nationality or faith with the people who are doing these things to them...they cant do much more and no one`s listening..and while i do blame them (human life needs to be respected, yours or anothers), i totally understand where theyre coming from

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Behram #11: The center of the Muslim world needs to shift from the Arab world to the non-Arab world. There are around 220 million Arabs in the whole world. There are around 130 million Muslims in Pakistan alone. More than 4/5th of the Muslim world is non-Arab.

Infact, the most sophisticated Muslim societies are now non-Arab. These include Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia etc. The only Arab country with any level of sophistication is Egypt. With the independence of the Central Asian Muslim states, there is now a new source of oil in the world, under the control of Muslims. The Central Asian states are all non-Arabs, as well.

Pakistan, luckily, sits smack in the center of the non-Arab world, in all manners. It is potentially the most important non-Arab Muslim state in the world. It has by far the most powerful military in the Muslim world. It is the only country in the Muslim world with nuclear weapons (Iran has a chance of getting them in the next ten years; but other than that, with the Central Asian states giving theirs up, I don`t see any Muslim state going nuclear in the future). Pakistan is the second highest populated Muslim state in the world, after Indonesia. After Indonesia, it has the highest number of literate people amongst Muslim states (even with a low Pakistani literacy rate). Pakistan (probably) has the most affluent expatrtiate population amongst Muslim nations. And Pakistan sits at the door as the (perhaps only) major path to the Central Asian oil reserves (the most coveted natural resource in the first half of the 21st century).

If the USA is smart it will shift its emphasis from the Arab Muslim countries to the non-Arab Muslim countries. Specially now with the Central Asian oil reserves, it doesn`t need to depend on the Arabs, too much. Unfortunately, the naive American Middle East policymakers (believe me, they are naive), don`t know the difference between King Faisal and Faisalabad. The one country that should be on the axis of evil is Saudi Arabia. It has more in common with the Taliban than with America. The one country (apart from Pakistan) that the US should be engaging heavily is Iran. Iran is moving towards an genuine democracy, with oil, and has an extremely sophisticated history and culture. The US did just the opposite. Rumsfield eats dinner with Saudis and puts Iran on the axis of evil list. The one Muslim the US should have bombed was Saddam. The Muslims the US should not have bombed were the Iraqi civilians. The US did just the opposite, again. Why do Americans then ask, ``Why does everyone hate us?``

Pakistan now has opportunties galore. India is not as much of a threat as before due to its internal difficulties. The fact that India has not attacked now after amassing its forces, indicates that India has accepted Pakistan`s nuclear deterent. Musharraf is the most recognized South Asian face since Gandhi. He has outsmarted everyone, including the Indian leadership.

The only thing Pakistan needs to do is to get its economic rate of growth to the traditional 6% or higher (which it already sustained for four decades). It also needs an honest leadership for ten years straight. I personally don`t really care if that leadership is fully democratic, quasi-democratic, referedumly democratic etc. in the short term. Democracy comes after honesty, in my book.

For starters, Pakistan needs to recognize Israel, while simultaneously pointing out Israel`s massive human rights violations (Morroco, Egypt, Jordan, Turkey and many other Muslim countries already reconginze Israel). Indian forces are sitting 100 meters from the Pakistani border, and none of the pathetic Arab leaders (including Yasir Arafat) has said a single word, against India. Why should Pakistan then break their own shops in support of Arabs?

Israel desperately wants recognition from Pakistan. Israel`s US based Jewish lobby will then happily invest billions into Pakistan (also Pakistan needs to change Faisalabad`s name back to Lyallpur or Jinnahabad or something).

And Pakistani Muslims need to stop being so apologetic about their identity and their religion. Islam is a religion. Its out there. If someone likes it, they should follow it. If they don`t like it, they shouldn`t follow it. But I don`t think anyone (including Americans) has a right to badmouth it, if they don`t understand it.

As far as the situation of Pakistanis in the US: if someone attempts to discriminate against Pakistanis, they should do what I plan to do: tell that person to fu/ */k off (if he/she goes back and brings a hundred of his/her discrimating colleagues, led by John Ashcroft, then move to Canada :-))

hamidm #13: Do I sense an inferiority complex?

Actually, the USA was the darling of the colonised eyes (Muslims and non-Muslims), for a long time. This was when the Muslims were in much worse condition then they are now. It was actually the Europeans that all the Muslims (and other colonised groups like Hindus) hated.

So the pathetic condition of Muslims formula of yours, doesn`t hold water. If it was accurate, then Muslims would have hated the Americans far more a hundred years ago, than they do now. Since hundred years ago, the Muslim condition was much more pathetic. The only independent Muslim country was Afghanistan, and the rest of us were all slaves.

Interestingly, now while the Muslim countries hate the USA and are actually begining to grow fond of European countries (their old colonial masters). The Europeans themselves are starting to lose their fondness for the USA.

So what the hell is going on.

Something wierd is going on in the relations between the USA and the Muslim countries. I mean why the hell do all these terrorists first migrate to Hamburg, then to Toronto and then blow up something in the USA? Why not just blow up Helmut Kohl or the CN Tower?

The alif, bay, pay reasons you have given (i should point out that they are as entertaining as your normal replies, but equally useless) should apply to European countries as well. Muslims are equally pathetic in comparison to them, also. There is a different set of alif, bay, pays. What are they? Lets ask Buckley. Or the latest CNN correspond who can barely pronounce hamidm, much less pronounce, ``jeeey had.``

``but before you blame the cia, read all the silly posts from gushing pakis like romair who think this guy is the greatest thing since gajar ka halwa .........``

I really miss gajar ka hulwa. And do not consider anyone equivalent of such high status. So please do not put words in my mouth. It is offensive to not only me, but to the hulwa. I don`t think Musharraf is the greatest thing since gajar ka hulwa. I don`t even think he is the greates thing since sliced bread (which is not even in the same league as gajar ka hulwa).

I do however think, he is better than the other bozos that are available, like BB, NS and Altaf Bhai.

Unless of course, one believes that Pakistani idiots like yourself (and me and others) are going to all of a sudden become enlightened and vote out these morons, through a, ``democratic process`` (Where the hell is this democratic process everyone keeps talking about?). I voted in the 90s, but things never changed. They just got worse (it was a jewish conspiracy or an isi conspiracy). Considering the fact that educated Pakistanis like yourself still cannot see anything wrong with BB and NS, what chance do uneducated guys like me, have of not voting for them. Believe me, we will all elect the same morons again, and again and again. And then, along with all the opposition parties, ask why the Army doesn`t take over.

It took the British 350 years, from the Magna Carta onwards, to figure out what actual democracy is. It took Americans 200 years from the Declaration of Independence to the Civil Rights movements to figure out what democracy is. Keeping in mind your definition of the low IQ of the average Muslim, it will take us Pakistanis 500 years to figure out what democracy is. By that time I will be dead. So why not support someone who is willing to consider other things (like economics and freedom of press) more important than voting, for a change.

I don`t support Musharraf because I think he is going to be extremely constructive. I support him because I don`t think he is destructive (or at least intentionally destructive) for Pakistan. Which is more than one can say for the other electable options. And because I don`t like standing in those long lines to vote, with the smelly burgoise. And I hate the stain they put on thumb after I have voted. If us Pakistanis cannot even come up with an ultraviolet stamp for our voters, what chance do we have of voting in a decent person.

And if you think the current deomcratic process is going to allow honest leaders to eventually come up, go have a talk with the Imran Khan`s and Khattaks and Asghar Khans of the world. They have cried themselves hoarse, trying to tell everyone to not vote for the BBs of Pakistan. But I guess we believe much more in voting (and that too for idiots), rather than stability and honesty.

Of course, I could join you in the jai namaz and pray and hope that BB will be reformed this time around, so we should continue with the, ``supreme democratic process`` we have in Pakistan, without changing it.

I live in UK and I am assuming that the life in USA for your son is as bad as it is for most muslim children or even adults in this country. I am not an archtypical muslim (cover my head and all that stuff) and on most occassion refrain myself from making an over zealous show of my religious belief. The simple reason is I don`t go around practicing most of what Islam says we should so i feel I shouldn`t hold myself under its banner.

However, I can so relate to what your son is saying, it does sux to be a muslim in western countries at this point in time. It sure does in UK and british scepticism about whole 11 September is a lot higher than their American counterparts.

After the whole 11 September thing it was like I suddenly had to start defending myself for something I believed in, and I had to justify it - most people might not ask for explicit explanation but they required it implicitly. It was suddenly a question of proving your allegiance, not rambunctious demands but demands still. Your article still does not answer the question for me - I am sorry, it is a great article but does not answer questions I was faced after the whole 11 sep thing.

re romair

``Pakistan, luckily, sits smack in the center of the non-Arab world, in all manners. It is potentially the most important non-Arab Muslim state in the world.``

Ah, that word `potentially`.

`` It has by far the most powerful military in the Muslim world.``

With an impressive military record I may add. Massacre of civillians in Jordan (1970), Bangladesh (1971), and Baluchistan (1976?). Not to mention the meek surrender of 90,000 mard-e-momins the minute they ran into actual resistance as opposed to unarmed civilians. Until the Egyptial 10th Army`s surrender in 1973 war, the December 1971 capitulation of Niazi`s goons was an unparalleled feat in the annals of Muslim martial history. Yeah, it is the mightiest Islamic power alright.

``It is the only country in the Muslim world with nuclear weapons (Iran has a chance of getting them in the next ten years; but other than that, with the Central Asian states giving theirs up, I don`t see any Muslim state going nuclear in the future).``

Pray hard that ISraelis don`t think too much of that. Remember Iraq?

`` Pakistan is the second highest populated Muslim state in the world, after Indonesia. After Indonesia,``

That is considered a weakness, not a strength in the modern day world.

`` it has the highest number of literate people amongst Muslim states (even with a low Pakistani literacy rate).``

Literacy rates (1997-1998)by UNESCO

Pakistan 42.7 %

Bangladesh 55.9 %

ref: http://www.accu.or.jp/litdbase/efa/

The point is, air marshal, that sometimes you do take optimistic liberties with hard facts and serious reservations. SPecially the military stuff. I`ve said this before, and it is true for most of LAtin America as well: when colonels run WAPDA and generals run cricket boards, it is not exactly an army but a bloated armed bureaucracy whose will tenacity is seriously corroded by the greed and graft that comes with easy civilian life.

Some points:

1. It does not suk to be muslims. It sux to have brown middle-eastern looks. Red necks can not differentiate b/w Raj Nath and Abdul Ghaffar, or Mirza Amir Ahmadi and Ali Hassan, can they?

2. Why inculcate muslim, pakistani or Indian culture in ur children? if they r raised in USA (or any other counrty) as their citizen, they should be raised as Americans. period. whether they belive in islam or hindumat, it is their concern.

3. How one person is responsible for the actions of his countrymen, he does not ally with?

4. Most of the `muslim fanatics` ills in pakistan, were duly encouraged and nourished by USA. It is time red necks ask their Carter and Reagan Admins and CIA to explain their ties with all religous ppl from Gulbadin Hikmatyar to Fazlur Rehman.

5. Supporting Arab causes has nothing to due with how Arabs treat Pakistanis. It should be based on one`s moral judgement, not some `parchoon ka hissaab`. Should one start supporting Isreal because Palestinians hate Pakistanis? stupid thinking.

Alrite, here is what i was pointing at previously. (initially it was addressed to Naqshbandi Sahib but to no avail).

Mar-21-02 3:11:17 EST Reply #: 492

Raw_Dust

ATTn: Naqshbandi Sahib.

Could you enlighten me about the position of scholars associated

with Barelvi school of thought on this seemingly historical blunder

of Koran. ?(please see the translation of the verse 30 Chapter 09

(Surah Tauba) below from three different sources)

Judaic belief doesnot hold anyone whosoever as the Son of God.

That i can say after reading literature from various sources

regarding Basic Judaic Beliefs.

Could you please clarify my confusion?

Thanx.

``009.030

YUSUFALI: The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians

call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in

this) they but imitate what

the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah`s curse be on them: how

they are deluded away from the Truth!

PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the

Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their

saying with their mouths. They

imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself)

fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the

Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the

words of their mouths; they imitate

the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy

them; how they are turned away! ``

….poignant and thoughtfully written, anne….how are things six months down the line?…

….poignant and thoughtfully written, anne….how are things six months down the line?…

{{All of his speeches in connection with recent events have included some thoughts on the importance of recognizing Muslim Americans as rightful citizens of this country, because “They love America just as much as I do.”}}

he is only partly right...most Muslims may love America just as much as he does, but many don`t...the reason partly has to do with muslims like naqshabandi who put religion above country...they love their country of residence (be it US or India) to the extent that it doesn`t clash with someone, somewhere far off who happens to be Muslim...the minute that happens, out the window goes loyalty to country, and in comes a tribal sympathy for that Muslim, no matter how wretched...

...there is an ideal above religion...if you recognize and accept that, you will be fine in America or any other country...if you don`t, then a multi-religious country is not the place for you...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Literacy rates (1997-1998)by UNESCO

Pakistan 42.7 %

Bangladesh 55.9 %

India 57.7%

ref: http://www.accu.or.jp/litdbase/efa/

...for a country the size of india, that is a behemoth task...if it wasn`t for bihar and UP, we`d be even higher....

Another pakistani stereotype

Ms Anne

``I can’t think of another minority group as diverse in its views, attitudes, and extent of assimilation as American Muslims of Middle- and Southeast origin. I risk overgeneralization by lumping together a good number of countries with quite distinct cultures, but I do so in response to the hostile and provocative

atmosphere evoked by Muslim leaders like Saddam Hussein, Ayatollah Khomeini, Zia-ul-Haq, and of course, Osama bin Laden.``

Another typical blinkered pakistani in the US where all that is new and open and even enlightening in the US has fallen off the proverbial ducks back of the pak mind set. Read the quote baove again, what an example of the diversity of muslim thinkig, Khomeni to Osama. here is an allegedly educated pakistani talking about diversity of pak views.

Even in their own country after all the searching and white washing all that they could come up with is one ehdhi runnung an ambulance service. It is time for the muslims to create some heros, at least one among the allegedly million should stand up and be counted. Of course in science muslims have made some contribution, especially in particle physics, one abdus salam...was he a muslim. Ms Anne, now that you are a US citizen, say out loud in pamikstan that abdus salam was a muslim and get arretsed for it.

It is people like you, finding diversity of islamic views between that of khomeni and osama that destroy a great religion.

Regards and best wishes for learning from your son

jay

What is in a name

:`` The center of the Muslim world needs to shift from the Arab world to the non-Arab world. There are around 220 million Arabs in the whole world. There are around 130 million Muslims in Pakistan alone. More than 4/5th of the Muslim world is non-Arab.``

Because of the 9/11, having lost my sit my sit at home work, I had to travel to some some bad places including australia to bury the parked aircraft following the collapse of Ansett airlines. Yes I was in saudi, and above quote from romair is well truly accepted by the saudi royals.

A town named jeddah has been renamed as Lyallpur. A lot of arabs are using names like ansari, quraishi etc reflecting the shift in muslim cetre of gravity to pakistan. Basant, they have changed to beshrant, but the point is it is celebrated. During ramzan arabs are eating mangos instead of dates.

Pakistanis have no limit to delusions, take it from me, it is one book, one place of worship and if you cannot be there at least face that direction and show your .... to all those in opposite direction.

On the lines of zen

Ms Anne, to understand the situation of pak muslims in US, you have explain the following fact from pakistan, why is it so?. From dawn of today.

Size of currency notes

The Pakistani currency notes come in denominations of 5, 10, 50, 100, 500, and 1,000. Recently, the government withdrew the notes of one and two rupees and introduced coins instead. Every currency note has a distinct colour and design representing our cultural heritage, and a size corresponding to its value. The size of our notes, too, is large compared to those of many other countries.

It is suggested that the size be reduced to standard size employed in most of the countries across the world. This way the cost of paper and printing would be reduced significantly. The space required to keep and carry money would also be reduced considerably.

When carrying in a wallet, the different sizes of currency notes don`t fit in properly, thus wearing out quickly.

Important currencies like dollar, pound, riyal and euro all come in one standard size, of course much smaller than ours. Why don`t we have the same?

BILAL ALI

Lahore

Re: Romair,

Romair, I believe hamidm when he says the average worthless ``shitpot`` general is worth around $2 to $3 million dollars plus the benefits of constantly adding insult to injury to the en masse, this whole sickening vicious triangular relationship between the gun toading idiotic Fauji, inept bureaucracy, and corrupt politicians has to go. I really don`t see why do we have to be the ``thaekaydaarz`` of Islam. No body gives a crap except for lottaz who have Islam as a source of income ( have you seen Fazlur rehman how fat is this pig ). This whole Muslim brotherhood and impotent league of Muslim countries ain`t worth squat. At least those s.o.bs have oil, what do we have to show for, around 50 million living below the poverty line and the remaining 100 million heading that way. If Mushy wants to do this screwed up country a favor he needs to really forget about the stupid referendum and ask the real question to the serfs and the unemployed and the uneducated and the hungry that in order for this country to move forward does he have their ``permission`` to snatch away all the bleeding Jagirs which these feudals inherited from god himself, break up the flour, candy, milk pack, sugar, cement, steel, banking monopolies, do some major land reform, clean up the civil services and the army. Forget about Kashmir, forget about Islam, forget about palestine, there is no need for us to be the experimental mess of a lab of Isalm or fortress of Islam (what are we defending? those nut job camel jockeys? ). No body died and appointed us the designated captain of this rudderless ship we don`t have to be the idiotic designated driver of Islam...and honestly we are not in any capacity to tout it either...I mean only crazy people think that Pakistan has the right resources and leverage to champion all these causes. More attention needs to be given to cleaning up the house, fixing it, putting it in order. We are a debt ridden pathetic little country and I am surprised that people on this forum convince me that our poverty fares better than Indians cuz they got more poor in the streets of Dehli, Calcutta, and Mumbai, I mean is this a statistic even worth mentioning. Who gives a crap what India does. We should stop comparing ourselves to India, If we need to really need to have a comparison so bad, then compare your state with G7 that should enligthen any reasonable person to use a pujabi phrase, ``Dunyaa CHUN touN ve aGgaye niK-al ga`eeaye tay asee ha`laay Jutti pay lub-nay aiN.`` And yes, BB and NS and Chaudris etc are worthless but don`t be fooled by the khakis. They have done us in over and over again. They are worthless as anyone else. They are only good for wearing starch uniforms and usurping the entire nations resources, 0.2% is the amount allocated to medicine, 1.7% to education...its a joke that they have been playing on us for 50 plus years...almost cynical ``yaye to wohi jagaa haye niklay thay hum jahan say``...:-), Yaye saalay saub aik hee mitti kay bannay who-ay hain, aour yaye mulk in ko muft mein milla haye...I hope this general president chief executive commando anitcipated ameer-ul-mominin proves me wrong...and does something different...at the least do a new con, cuz I am really bored by the same old rabbit & the hat trick.

Re ROMAIR:

i might not agree with the statistics but I do agree with the fact that democracy does not work in Pakistan. For all the people trying to defend democracy as the voice of people, I just have question: what voice is it that you are defending?

The voice that would follow anyone blindly who leads them to dreams of havean without any definite plans? The voice which is burning down churches in Pakistan at the moment because somehow that will help the country? The voice that is still slave to the master who rules them? The voice that is going to vote for the landlord who rules them irrespective of whether he kills them, rape their daughters because if they didn`t he would do it anyway and it would be worse.

It seems more like a dictatorship cloaked in democracy. If nothing else army rule has one thing straight its not a democracy and it doesn`t hold itself to be one! One truth is better than none, wouldn`t you agree?

sigalph #29: Unfortunately, you seem to grow itchy when someone says anything positive about Pakistan. I did not even mention Bangladesh in my previous reply, yet you have come out with all guns blazing against Pakistan, as usual. I sense you are a bit angry that I did not place Bangladesh on the list of sophisticated Muslim countries.

The points I made are accurate, in reference to Islamic nations. Which is what my reference was.

``Ah, that word `potentially`.``

There is a reason I used the word potentially. Pakistan does have the potential to be the most important non-Arab Muslim state. It implies that this position is open at the moment, and if Pakistan gets its act together, it could occupy it. Not every country has this potential. Why does that bother you?

``With an impressive military record I may add. Massacre of civillians in Jordan (1970), Bangladesh (1971), and Baluchistan (1976?).``

Your references make no sense. They are stuck in the past. Unfortunately, it is only powerful militaries that can carry out the most henious acts of civilian killings (i only consider you Bangladesh reference a massacre. you are over extending way too much, on the other ones. for example in Jordan, it was Pakistani military commanders that were on deputation serving in the Jordanian military; they were under Jordanian high command; and if the year is 1970, then there must have been East Paksitanis there as well. I know one East Pakistani pilot that was deputed to the Syrian Air Force; do you consider him responsible for any, ``massacres.`` or is he clean because he was an East Pakistani?): Russia in Afghanistan (over 1 million killed), India in Kashmir (70k killed), US in Iraq (hundreds of thousands killed), etc. The fact still remains that they are powerful militaries.

Let`s talk about the present, and more importantly lets talk about Muslim states. Could you tell me one Muslim state that has a more powerful military than Pakistan`s? After all this was the whole point I was discussing. The discussion wasn`t on the historical human rights of Muslim militaries. Pakistan is the only country in South Asia to which the Indians cannot dictate to. What would any other South Asian country do if India had 1 million troops parked on its border?

Once again, if you don`t agree with me, kindly point out a Muslim country with a stronger military.

``Pray hard that ISraelis don`t think too much of that. Remember Iraq?``

What is this supposed to mean? Are you suggesting that Israel would attack Pakistan`s nuclear program? They tried once, and didn`t succeed. If they could, they would have done so by now. Do you even have an iota of information on Pakistan`s security systems around Kahuta. If you did, you wouldn`t have gotten carried away, and made this comment.

I am doing research for such an attack for a story I am writing on this topic. And believe me, I had to create all kinds of scenarios to finally come up with a realistic game plan. And even that would only succeed if all the stars were pointed in the right direction. It is orders of magnitude more difficult, (due to geography, distance, defence systems etc. reasons) for Israel to attack Pakistan, in comparison with attacking Iraq. So I don`t understand your point.

If however, you still feel strongly about the fact that Isreal can and will attack Pakistan`s nuclear plant, then could you tell me exactly how it could do it? I would like to use your scenario in my story.

If you cannot tell me any scenario (which I doubt you can, since you have no knowledge about Pakistan defence systems), then could you tell me why you get such a high from criticising anything Pakistani, just for the heck of it, without any facts to back it up?

And are you suggesting that Pakistan is not the only Muslim country with nuclear weapons? To the best of my knowledge, it is the only one.

``That is considered a weakness, not a strength in the modern day world.``

This is not a weakness in the modern day world. It is only a weakness if one does not have a good economic system, to accomodate the population. Otherwise it is a strenght. That is why I stated that Pakistan needs to get a higher economic growth rate.

Infact the biggest expected problem the Western world is to face in the coming years is going to be their reducing population. They will have to import people in great amounts.

``Pakistan 42.7 %

Bangladesh 55.9 %``

I used the following website: http://www.engenderhealth.org/ia/cbc/bangladesh.html for Bangladesh, which lists

Literacy Rate (Male) 51.3

Literacy Rate (Female) 31.4

But I will give you this one.

``The point is, air marshal, that sometimes you do take optimistic liberties with hard facts and serious reservations. SPecially the military stuff.``

This is a ridiculous comment. Please see the facts I have provided above. The only one which is debatable is the literacy rate. Everything else is dead on target.

Kindly point out what liberty I have taken with the military stuff. All I stated was that Pakistan has the most powerful military in the Muslim world. In addition to this it has nukes, which make it even more powerful. It is standing up to the gigantic Indian military right now, and it stood up to the gigantic Soviet military in the 80s. Can you name any other Muslim country that has stood up to countries seven times its size? All other Muslim countries, including Bangladesh, wet their pants when India coughs, or when Israel yawns. West Pakistan is still the same size as it was in 1947, despite Soviet and Indian efforst to tear it apart militarily (the only people who can destroy Pakistan are the Pakistanis themselves. I doubt India will ever be able to get an inch of it). East Pakistan is gone, because the East Pakistanis did not want to live with West Pakistan. That was their choice and I respect it (although I do not agree with their post-71 Bangladeshi generation taking liberties and throwing punches at the post-71 generation of Pakistanis). As long as Bangleshis wanted to be part of West Pakistan, India wasn`t able to make much headway attacking there also.

``when colonels run WAPDA and generals run cricket boards,``

What difference does it make whether Colonels are running Wapda or not? That is a separate issue. This may make the military weaker. But despite this, Pakistan`s military is still the strongest in the Muslim world. Large militaries may have other after effects on politics, economies etc. But I am purely making a comment about the strength of the military, not on the social after effects of that strength.

P.S. I have been one of the strongest critics of Pakistan`s 1971 policies in East Pakistan. But you seem to be still stuck there. You tend to use that in every reply, in an attempt to take pot shots at present day Pakistan. I am not sure what you will gain from this. There is a new generation of people in Pakistan now. Most of whom weren`t even alive in 1971. Less than 1% of the current Pakistani military or political or beaurecratic leadership was even in the govt. in 1971.

You need to learn to adjust to present day times, and not attempt to go after the present Pakistani generation with every reply, starting from 1971. It is no diffent than Pakistanis going after present day Brits for what happened to their previous generation. It is a very counterproductive way to handle things. And the easiest possible way to turn Pakistani present generation critics of Pakistan pasts into supporters of that past.

My reply was not about 1971. It wasn`t even about Bangladesh. It was about 2001. Unfortunately, every single one of your replies starts from 1970 (as did this one) and remains stuck there, i.e Pakistan military did this and this in 71, so it is still the same. Doesn`t it seem logical that in 30 years things change, or may have changed.

I have a friend whose whole family was killed in front of him by the Mukti Bahni. Even he has made peace with Bangladesh. Whether you are willing to make peace, is up to you. But kindly do not use history to take pot shots at other people. Please stick to the facts. If you continue taking cheap shots unnecessarily (on replies that weren`t even remotely about 1971), then others will start doing the same towards Bangladesh; which will be quite unfortunate.

Re: Romair #12

I think you`ve been reading too much anti-Soviet propaganda put out by the US State Dept. There is enough evidence out there now to argue that the Soviets did NOT back the 1979 coup, argued against all of the Afghan communist reforms that precipitated the mass uprisings against the Afghan communists and only very reluctantly invaded Afghanistan when it became clear that Hafizullah Amin was going to switch sides attempt a repeal of the Brezhnev doctrine. The Soviets were trying desperately to pacify Afghanistan at the lowest possible cost (to themselves, who cared about the Afghans anyway? Not them, us or the Americans).

If you don`t think this is true, ask yourself how many times Peshawar, Islamabad or Lahore were attacked and compare this to the US treatment of N. Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos.

Re: Hamidm #13

All too true. However, much of what is ``wrong`` with Muslim societies can be changed as soon as we accept that the Koran is NOT the literal word of God but merely divinely inspired (i.e., make the same transition that Christianity has done with the Bible). Since it is divinely inspired but not the literal word of God, it can then be rearranged and reinterpreted to suit modern requirements rather than exist in a fossilized 7th century CE stage, aka Saudi Arabia. Alas, easier said than done. Any one have a spare Martin Luther lying around the place? And whatever happened to that Sorush chap in Iran anyway? Not that he really matter to us, since he is a stinking Shia anyway.

Regards.

RE: # 17 zeemax

[``What motivates a person to do that to himself? Food for serious thought.``]

http://www.indian-express.com/ie20020323/top1.html

this is the story of how he watched his mother and sister die.

zeemax, maybe this is how suicide bombers are made?

lilith #28,

..... ``hum log`` vs ``yeh log`` and the new niggers ....

.....if it is any consolation to you, the pakis in america are following in the footsteps of their brothers and sisters in birmingham and manchester in becoming the new underclass - affectionately known as (aka), the new niggers ..... dont axe me why and how , because it is not easy to work your way to the bottom in this land of opportunity unless you really work hard at it.....but i will tell you anyway ..........

......you see, it all starts with the definition of ``us`` and ``them`` – ``us`` being the people of the faith and ``them`` being the infidels, which includes the japanese because they eat raw fish an use bidets instead of lotas, and the eskimos because they eat blubber and allow bay-watch into their igloos ......it starts with parents telling their children that we, that is ``hum log``, don’t do this and that because we are muslims and they, that is ``yeh log``, do it because the pork makes them promiscuous and crazy about baseball .......it starts with sunday school and leads to a lifetime membership in the msa and a career as a jihadist with al-qaeda or a java programmer with ramachandran systems.......the jihadist ends up in a jail cell in Karachi, seething and simmering at his high school mates - bob jones, david levi and ravi krishnamuthy - who control the world from wall street and hollywood........the java programmer ends up in a cube in the silicon valley seething and simmering at real indians and imaginary jews who own the company and spend more time in the napa valley while he sweats out the java beans or xml or whatever they happen to be growing on the plantation ......

.......you may still axe, how did it happen ? .....it is all about choosing sunday school over baseball, qari sahib over the piano teacher, tafseer over broadway and java programming over investment banking .......if you can’t tell the difference between short stop and pit stop or a merlot and a bordeaux, you will end up in a jail cell in karachi or the plantation cube in palo alto ........this stubborn and misguided unwillingness to even make an attempt to assimilate has sealed our fate as the new underclass and also peed off pat buchanan who was always a little suspicious of zulus in manhattan ......

...... stop being angry at them - give them a chance and go to the block picinic on labor day, and let the kid next door mow your yard and don`t worry about your daughter running off with him on the toro ......tell your kids to stop spending too much time with the moon-faced nuns of the msa before they pick up the bad habit .......tell them to pick up a violin instead of of the tasbeeh and, yes, it is okay to listen to linken park – almost two decades ago kevin bacon proved that loud music does not corrupt, but the ummah seems to be the only group of people who haven’t been touched by kevin ..........and please, stop importing brides and daigchees from mirpur and grooms and jharoos from lalukhet .........

re romair

``Unfortunately, you seem to grow itchy when someone says anything positive about Pakistan.``

That is simply inaccurate, and several interactors here know it well. I am quite a well-wisher and admirer of Pakistan; I have plenty of family and other connections there; and I write regularly for major Pakistani periodicals. That admiration does not, however, extend always to the Pakistani military for too many reasons.

When Pakistan`s first military top brass was griping about the lack of stores and materiel handed over by India (India cheated big time), the Quaid-e-Azam rebuked them by mentioning that the core strength of an army is found not in its tanks and trucks but in the sterling quality of its officers and men. History has proven those thoughts of Mr Jinnah true many times before and after him. That quality of officers and men is, that sense of elan and self-sacrifice, is more important than all the numbers and hardware that you rest your argument on. And hence, colonels running WAPDA has EVERYTHING to do with it. Sorry sir, we cannot advance on the enemy today because colonel sahib is fixing water lines in Peshawar!

And who cares and what matters who the strongest military in the ISlamic world is? That line of comparison is becoming more and more irrelevant everyday.

Fuzair #44:The thrust of my reply was to point out that Zia is not hated in the USA, like the other person`s on the list presented by the author.

As for the Soviets and Americans fighting it out in the USSR. My own guess is that the Soviets wanted to get into the Arabian Sea. The issues of who supported whom in the various Afghan changes of power is debatable. But the end result is that the Soviets did invade and invaded ferociously. They killed women, children and anyone else, that came in their way. So much so, that the Afghans, who never unite with each other for anything, ended up united against the Soviets. According to many estimates, the Soviets killed between 1 to 1.5 million civilians in the USSR. One cannot call that an attempt to, ``pacify Afghanistan at the lowest possible cost,`` to themselves or to anyone else.

It is however possible, the Soviets would have accepted defeat earlier and agreed to a negotiated settlement, but the Americans wanted to do a Vietnam on them, and wouldn`t let them out of the war so easily. I have heard this, as well. But had the Soviets not been defeated, they would have kept marching onwards towards the Sind Club and Clifton.

One of the many reasons for the Soviet invasion are as follows:

``Complete a drive to the south through Central Asia by reaching the shores of the Arabian Sea. The next step: establish a Soviet Gibralter at Gawadar in Baluchistan, or outside Karachi, and link this new naval base complex to the Soviet rail system at Tashkent. Such a coup would allow the USSR to create the logistic base for a powerful Indian Ocean fleet.....(Margolis, Eric. P.42. War at the top of the World).

Eric Margolis was in the Afghan War. And is probably one of the biggest critics of US policies in the world. He is anything, but US propoganda.

``If you don`t think this is true, ask yourself how many times Peshawar, Islamabad or Lahore were attacked and compare this to the US treatment of N. Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos.``

I am quite surprised you would make this statement. I have a feeling, you are only looking at Army and Naval movements during those invasion days. If you had spent a day in Sargodha airbase, you would seen the intensity of the Soviet threat.

I was in Sargodha during those days. Pakistani F-16s were literally flying day and night, to engage Soviet aircraft intervening into Pakistan airspace. If I remember correctly there was an all out active CAP over Kahuta. Meaning two F-16s would go, and not come back from Kahuta until two more replaced them.

If I remember correctly, the number of Soviet air interventions into Pakistan ran into the hundreds. The Soviet aircraft would come in, check Pakistani defences, and then run away when they saw the F-16s coming. Pakistanis actually shot down a few while they were running away (the strict orders being that the planes had to be shot down in Pakistani territory).

The reason the Soviets did not attack Pindi, etc. is because they couldn`t. Plain and simple. They tried their very best. Lets look at the four ways, they could have attacked Pakistan:

1. Land: This was their main plan. The USSR is basically a land and nuclear military. Their air force equipment was not match to the F-16s. Their aircraft technology has only progressed recently (with Mig-29s and Su-30s) after they solved the mettalurgical problems they had with aircraft engine turbines.

The Soviet didn`t count on getting bogged down in Afghanistan. Their original plan was to cut through Afghanistan in months, if not weeks, and lauch a massive land invasion of Pakistan, along with air cover, at some stage (maybe immediately, maybe in 20 years, after destabilizing Pakistan).

The Afghans were still losing the war, until the Stinger missile arrived. After that, the Soviet could not provide air cover to their troops easily. Thus, the Afghans completely bogged down the Soviet lines of communications and logistics. From that point onwards, there was no way the Soviets could have taken on 450k Pakistani military with massively vulnerable logistics lines. To paraphrase someone, ``Naive Generals plan strategy, great Generals plan logistics.``

In addition to this, Soviets needed air cover (gunships and aircraft) for their ground forces. Pakistan has a very good air defence system. It is perhaps even better than Pakistan`s Air Force. Pakistanis would have neutralized the Soviet aircraft even more efficiently than Afghans did.

2. Naval: There was no chance of a naval invasion of Pakistan. Hence no activity there.

3. Air: Soviets tried day and night for years to test weaknesses in Pakistan`s air defence. Please read the F-16 remark above. But each and every time, they were detected and chased away. There pre-Mig 29 aircraft were no match for the Pakistani F-16s. One of the Soviet pilots shot down, and captured by Pakistanis, went on to become the Vice-President/Vice Prime Minister of one of the Soviet independent states. I suppose the Soviets could have just sent their whole Air Force towards Pakistan, but that would be pointless. It would result in a great no. of losses for the Soviet air force, with no gain militarily apart from the destruction of a Pakistani city.

4. Terrorism: During the Afghan war days, Pakistan had the highest no. of terrorist attacks in the world. I was also close to Peshawar during those days. Every day, something would get blown up. Movie theaters, etc.

So in a sense, the Soviets did attack Pakistan`s cities in the only way they could. Through covert ops. terrorism. But this wasn`t successful, because the average Pakistani wanted to remain with Pakistan. It only led to destruction and more hatred of the Soviets, but no Pukhtunistan or anything else.

So, in essence, the Soviets tried their best to attack or plan to attack Pakistan, but they couldn`t. There is a huge difference between Pakistani defences and Cambodian defences (I am sure you will agree with this). Specially when Pakistan had open and unlimited access to all the US high tech weapons, which were much superior to anything the Cambodians had access to (or even the Soviets themselves had access to). As well as open access to Saudi money, as well as strategic support from the Chinese. Also it was the ISI`s finest hour, and it clearly took it to the much bigger KGB, KHAD and whatever else.

The only support the Soviets had was from India. And India wasn`t going to attack Pakistan, until the Soviets made significant progress into Pakistan. So India kept waiting. And China may have attacked India, had India attacked Pakistan.

I am quite convinced that the Soviets wouldn`t risk and kill so much in Afghanistan (including their own soldiers), to just pacify a govt. And they wouldn`t intrude so regularly into Pakistani airspace and through terrorism, for no reason. They didn`t invade Pakistan, because they couldn`t even make in past Afghanistan. They may have wanted to end the war earlier and retreat. That is perhaps where the USA wanted to keep the war going. But the original Soviet intentions were to end up in Karachi.

This is a debt we owe to the Afghanis. Otherwise, somewhere along the line (through political destabilization, i.e. a new Pukhtunistan issue, independent Baluchistan, Indian help, etc.), the Soviets would have a made a thrust at the Arabian Sea. And within a few years, your name would have been Fuzairov and mine would have been Umairov (or Rajaov; i would have prefered Umairov). And Afghanistan and Pakistan would have been the newest, ``stans`` added to the long list of stans (countries, which like Pakistan, have nothing in common with Russia, but were annexed) already conquered by the Russian bear. Our next generation would have been gymnasts and ballet dancers instead of cricket and hockey players.

Would be interested in your comments.

````“”However, much of what is ``wrong`` with Muslim societies can be changed as soon as we accept that the Koran is NOT the literal word of God but merely divinely inspired (i.e., make the same transition that Christianity has done with the Bible).

Since it is divinely inspired but not the literal word of God, it can then be rearranged and reinterpreted to suit modern requirements rather than exist in a fossilized 7th century CE stage, aka Saudi Arabia.””(Fuzair)

Dear Fuz:

I hope you’re in the United States -- for good.

Waheed #42: ``I believe hamidm when he says the average worthless ``shitpot`` general is worth around $2 to $3 million dollars``

The only way a General can be worth 2 to 3 million is thru corruption, or thru a family business. He cannot make that much money thru his salary. If one gets into corruption, then that is a different debate. There are probably entry level people in Customs who are millionaires. I was only talking about an honest salaries. In any case, I understand the pluses and minuses of Generals quite well. Hence my first suggestion for reforming the military by cutting down the size of the Generals to 1/3rd the current size.

`` this whole sickening vicious triangular relationship between the gun toading idiotic Fauji, inept bureaucracy, and corrupt politicians has to go.``

This is ture. But who is going to bell the cat. That is what we need to think about. It isn`t going to go away just by saying it. And the common voting Pakistanis, like hamidm, are still crying tears to bring back BB and NS. I feel at least Musharraf is making some attempt to clean up this house. I doubt any of the politicians of the ARD are going to make such an attempt.

``If Mushy wants to do this screwed up country a favor he needs to really forget about the stupid referendum and ask the real question to the serfs and the unemployed and the uneducated and the hungry that in order for this country to move forward does he have their ``permission`` to snatch away all the bleeding Jagirs which these feudals inherited from god himself, break up the flour, candy, milk pack, sugar, cement, steel, banking monopolies, do some major land reform, clean up the civil services and the army.``

This is true, and the right way to go. I think within his limitations he has broken up the beaurecracy and the religious right and gone after the corrupt businessmen. Unfortunately, if he were to start going after the feudals in the manner you are suggesting (which is the correct manner in my opinion), the hamidms of the world will start jumping up and down, along with Nawabzada Nasrullah, pointing out that Pakistan`s grand democracy (where exactly is it) is being ruined and that the feudals jagirs should only be taken through a vote by their voting peasants (that will happen when pigs fly).

``And yes, BB and NS and Chaudris etc are worthless but don`t be fooled by the khakis. They have done us in over and over again.``

This is correct also. But someone has to run the country. I don`t think one can generalize. BB is bad, than doesn`t mean every Sindhi is bad, or every PPPliya is bad. NS is bad, but that doesn`t mean every Punjabi or PMLiya is bad. Similarly, Zia`s policies were domestically destructive, but that doesn`t mean every General is bad.

Under the current circumstances, I don`t see a better option than Musharraf. It doesn`t matter to me whether he is a General, a Lieutenant, a Dhobi, a Nai, a Christian, Muslim or Hindu. Or if he gets into power thru a referendum or through the barell of the gun. If he talks sense, he should be supported. If he talks nonsense, then he should not be supported. If anyone thinks the ARD leaders want democracy because they want to help Pakistan, then I have a some furniture in my attic I would like to sell them.

I think we need to right now just look at individuals, and then slowly move towards democracy. If a decent person is in power, for the time being, forget about where he came from, or how he got there

Romair:

``I believe hamidm when he says the average worthless ``shitpot`` general is worth around $2 to $3 million dollars``

Bhai, the Paki generals are lucky. I would be grateful if my ``worthless general`` father was worth even two-three hundred thousand dollars. If we convert to dollars from rupees, saala 50,000 bhee nahin pahunchta hoga. If someone has to be corrupt in India, why can`t it be the generals. At least the progeny of the generals know how to live well, and will spend well.

Fuzair

`stinking shia`

and you smell of roses, sweetiepie?

Muslim Americans is a much better terminology than American Muslims. The last part of identity usually defines the latest and more important aspect of identity, having the sort of veto powers over all else in certain areas. Author has chosen the better of the two terms.

Children are the only practical way to biological immortality whereas immortality in acquired skills can be achieved through recognition. Since 99+ percent of the people live average life with little recognition beyond a select group of family and friends, children are the only mode available for immortality in this world. For this very reason all parents wish their children successful in life. However, many parents start following a contradictory path from the day one, a child is born. Such is the case with a large number of Muslim Americans, Hindu Americans and south Asian Americans as well. Whether some of these people will choose to go back to their motherlands in time or not, their progeny will invariably stay in America and slowly diluting their Muslim or south Asian identities. Almost everybody agrees to this but selects a coarse path for their children than a smooth one. Why?

When children are given names like Syed Mustansir Jarrar Siddiqui or Gannapati Venkatraman Subramanian, the stage is set to identify the child more clearly as a minority as if his/ her color of skin is not enough. I do not have to argue here for the advantages of belonging to majority and disadvantages of belonging to any minority. Is this the best use of parent power to increase the probability of discrimination or ridicule for your own biological immortality? Why do they want their children to suffer hardships compared to kids next door? While the next door children are taking piano lessons, playing soccer, eating at McDonalds, the intensification of minority status beyond color is instilled through head covers, fasting, no-meat or no-pork based dietary laws, no-this-and-no-that etc. Parents are using the freedom of religion and freedom to choose in order to abuse the normal growing up of children in a particular environment. Is this mere selfishness or stupidity included also? Parents should spare no effort to make life easy and smooth for their children, not leaving them with a baggage that is a constant source of backwardness and irrationality. They should try to blur the boundaries of majority-minority as much as possible and not sharpening them with erecting a steel wall surrounding their children separating them in the most identifiable ways from the rest. It is very stupid of some to think that their children will help increase the percentage of Muslims to a level where they can find a Quaid-e-Azam in the future and secede from USA or that Muslims will be accepted as equal but a distinct minority with every right to detest the values system and morality of the majority.

If the disliking or detesting pork-eating, skirts-wearing, hair-flying, dancing and imbibing alcohol majority are the hallmarks of an identity as a powerless minority, then the 15 year old understood it better than his mother, the author. Do not turn him into a more clearly defined minority than he already is.

Muslims has to accept the face value of other societies and their ethno-religious background as equally valid and then do a lot of introspection. Blame their shortcomings and predicaments on themselves. Try to get rid of or modify whatever component of their belief system is impediment to getting out of quagmire. Without a doubt in my mind, they have to shun all forms of organized Islam and Islamic organizations. Above all, get over the hangover of Islamic dogma in any form having the veto power over their thinking and others lifestyles. Islam is not above survival instinct. It is not above life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. If it fails on these counts than it is a failure. If the Islamic experiment fails in Pakistan, it is the failure of Islam and not Pakistan. Pakistan acted as a laboratory and not the experiment - Islam was the experiment.

Talking about Pakistani military being the strongest among Muslim countries or Pakistani being the natural center of Islamic world is meaningless because a small piece of real estate in a pristine setting is better than being the center of graveyard and having the best grave diggers.

Sameerjb,

``It is very stupid of some to think that their children will help increase the percentage of Muslims to a level where they can find a Quaid-e-Azam in the future and secede from USA or that Muslims will be accepted as equal but a distinct minority with every right to detest the values system and morality of the majority.``

If there was a Quaid e Azam, and he truly was a Quaid e Azam, for the American Muslims, I doubt that he would want to secede from the USA but would instead work really hard to blur the minority majority distinctions. And from what I know of American Muslims, they will NEVER find a Quaid e Azam.. unlike other places in the world, the Muslims are migrants to the US by their own will, and much more than any other place the scope of Multicultural Unity is a tangible reality in the US. So a true Quaid e Azam for the American Muslims would like our Quaid e Azam, make every effort to get Muslims involved in Secular Politics of the US.. get them registered as Voters as Democrats and Republicans, and ask them to be `Americans first second and last`, just like our Quaid e Azam had told Raja of Mahmudabad, one should be an `Indian first second and last`.

In the US, such a Man and his constitutional methods would succeed... I have no doubt about it, in elevating the conditions of Muslims and helping them come to terms with the Majority so much so that `Muslims will cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense but in a political sense, and they shall become citizens` of the United States of America.

``If the Islamic experiment fails in Pakistan, it is the failure of Islam and not Pakistan. Pakistan acted as a laboratory and not the experiment - Islam was the experiment. Talking about Pakistani military being the strongest among Muslim countries or Pakistani being the natural center of Islamic world is meaningless because a small piece of real estate in a pristine setting is better than being the center of graveyard and having the best grave diggers.``

WELL SAID .. BRAVO SAMEER!

1) Zia`s `Islamic Experiment` has failed.

2) Pakistan has realized that.

3) Islamism and not Pakistan has failed!

thank you for your comments. one minor point: i realize that zia`s name does not belong in this list; actually, i omitted it from the final draft, but i guess i sent chowk an earlier version by mistake (i hate such oversights!).

i`m not much of a practicer as far as my religion, but do consider it central to my identity, just as i do being pakistani. yes, i want my children to feel as american as the next kid, but at the same time, i want them to develop a happy awareness of their ethnicity. in no way does this consciousness have to conflict with their pride or joy in being american. and i`m only trying, with no absolute guarantees of total success.

true, i`m under no obligation to act as an apologist for terrorist acts committed by men who happen to share my religious background; however, i felt a need to say something when we were all being lumped together.

my son is doing much better, thank you (for those who asked). my daughter is younger, less brooding, and less aware in general. we had just moved to a different state (kids in new schools) and then this happened. you can imagine what it felt like to an angst-prone adolescent with no friends yet, and a very arab sounding name (not osama, thank god!). in any case, he has made quite a few friends since, and seems to be getting along well (except the sulky side of him, which has nothing to do with anything anyway).

--AS

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sameerjb ..

..... dang! - you are good .....i tried to say pretty much the same thing in m