The Great Illusion

ylh 306

What has U.S. to do with Parvez Musharraf saying his government doesn`t know Dawood Ibrahim`s whereabouts while giving him citizenship at the same time?

Shah #302

``I dont say as much enthusiasm in chasing HINDIAN perpetretors of crime as Afroze ,Dawood,Chota Shakeel,Ansari,....``

Ansari???

Ylh #306:

``Jay, If US can grant citizenship to former Nazis, Dawood Ibrahim is a small fish. I am not sure it really happened, but if it did, so be it.``

Congrats ylh. With this attitude you can justify and live with anything.

pmishra2 # 293

``And to think that the Indian goverment wanted to join these barbarians! What a lucky break that they couldnt.``

Mishra Ji

I too am surprised.Lucky they couldn`t.Afterall they are in a class of their own.Look at their

civilized response to Godhra and it still continues.Today`s score ONLY 5 muslims burnt

alive in the city of Bapu.Ahimsa Parmo Dharma is

so suitable for the Mahaan Bharat.

Jai Hind.

r: ylh

{{Voting on UN security Council resolutions can hardly be called `lipservice`.}}

is that so? then why not back-up that non-lipservice with some real pressure on india? why?...because it is all a facade...it IS lipservice...grow up and face reality for a change....else one day it will come and smack you real hard....

{{We will persevere, survive and the final victory will be ours inshallah, and that is a promise!}}

not if 1 billion indians can help it...and that is a promise too, inshabartsimpson...(btw, what kind of victory? like the thrashing you got at the hands of the indian army in 1971?)

Prem

I think you make a subtle but correct distinction. The emphasis on withdrawal is no doubt in the final stage. However, I think over all there is a glorification of renunciation, which is actively opposed in Sikhism.

I would be interested in more detail of the Hindu concept of Moksha, and the path to it.

YLH

Leave seperatism aside. What facts of the JKLF do you refute?

I state:

The JKLF took responsibility for the assasination of Ravindra Mhatre, an Indian diplomat in London.

The JKLF (including Yasin Malik) took responsibility of mowing down 14 Air Force personnel at a bus stop in Srinagar. Yasin Malik has not taken personal responsibility for the actual killing, but he has acknowledged the JKLF`s role.

The JKLF took responsibility for the kidnapping and subsequent murder of Mr Khera, GM of HMT factory, Srinagar.

The JKLF and the Hizbul Mujahideen were involved in rivalry in the valley in the early 90s. The JKLF lost a substantial number of cadre in this.

I am not lying to the best of my knowledge. Therefore, I would be very interested in finding out the facts you dispute and the sources.

Cheers

ylh 304

Just as Bangladeshis, Baloochis, Pakhtoons were. Nothing like a Muslim woman being raped by a Muslim for being a Muslim.

fairdinkum #296
I`m not sure what you mean I am comparing. I was mentioning a hypothesis regarding UN involvement prolonging conflicts.

I quoted a short exchange from this program, available for viewing at:

http://www.booktv.org/feature/index.asp?segid=2376&schedID=120
Bernard Lewis & Akbar Ahmed Discussion on Islam

Akbar Ahmed spoke at some length about Jinnah and Pakistan.

btw, this might be interesting too, this speaker spoke about Pakistan too.
http://www.booktv.org/feature/index.asp?segid=2365&schedID=120
Jihad: The Rise of Militant Islam in Central Asia
Ahmed Rashid

From NYT: Bin Laden Falls Off Pakistan`s Best-Seller List

By Raymond Bonner/The New York Times

PESHAWAR, Pakistan, March 27 — In this raucous border town, long a center of men and materiél for wars in next-door Afghanistan, Osama bin Laden has fallen out of favor, and at least one industry is thriving on the change. ``My business is flourishing,`` said Naveed Akhtar, a book publisher, amid a jumble of machines and papers in what serves as the office of NTR Printers. Six weeks ago Mr. Akhtar, the owner of what had been a very small business, received an order for 250,000 primary school textbooks for Afghanistan. He has doubled the number of his employees to 12, set up 12-hour shifts and expects his profit to increase to 150,000 rupees a month, roughly $2,500, from 30,000 rupees a month...During the Taliban era, the only orders from Afghanistan were for Islamic books, and the mustachioed but otherwise cleanshaven Mr. Akhtar did not get any of those because the Taliban`s intolerance for men without beards — and they opposed a liberal education``...Business is very bad,`` groaned Mohammad Saeed Ahmad, the owner of Maktabiadal Mohallah bookshop. He sells only Islamic books, written in Persian and Arabic, and with the fall of the Taliban his buyers have disappeared....In another sign that readers follow politics, most of the stores, which were heavily stocked with books about Mr. bin Laden, have seen their sales lag. ...

For my Pakistani friends, a flattering article:)

Competing visions for Pakistan`s future

Police yesterday arrested over 30 militants, including alleged Al Qaeda members.

By Scott Baldauf | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

ISLAMABAD, PAKISTAN – He is the point man in Pakistan`s war on terrorism, a difficult job by any measure.



And Interior Minister Moinuddin Haider isn`t raising expectations. He says it will take years of effort and severe punishments to restore law and order to Pakistan.

As a frontline state in America`s war in Afghanistan, Pakistan remains a vital staging area for both military and humanitarian missions. Any significant disruption of stability here could change the course of the entire war.

That is precisely the motive behind all the recent terrorist incidents here, including the kidnapping and murder of Daniel Pearl, the massacre of Shiite Muslims in Rawalpindi, and the bombing of a Protestant church, says General Haider.

``To fight these people you have to use a heavy hand with them, and it takes time,`` says Haider, with his narrow eyes and slick black hair. ``We need the world`s support and understanding and patience. They have to help us ban poverty, to have a better education in the country, and find employment for people, and to help our security situation.``

Yesterday, Pakistani police arrested more than 30 Islamic militants, including alledged Al Qaeda members, in raids in Faisalabad and Lahore. Meanwhile, the government this week announced it has deported hundreds of foreign students this month from religious schools, seen as recruiting grounds for Islamic militant groups.

In his ongoing crackdowns, President Pervez Musharraf is walking a thin line between restoring order and violating civil liberties. On one hand, he is criticized for failing to strike terrorist groups hard enough. On the other side, he is criticized by civil libertarians and mainstream political parties for restricting political-party activity and rallies in the run-up to national elections this fall.

Implementing these often-contradictory goals will require a new vision for what Pakistan should become.

``The challenge that we are facing in Pakistan is choosing whether we are moving toward becoming a theocracy or becoming a liberal democracy,`` says Afrasiab Khattak, chairman of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan in Peshawar. ``These people who are striking against the state are using violence, but the state should not violate the law itself, because that can breed more violence.``

Compounding the difficulty of Musharraf`s efforts are the advantages that a small band of terrorists can have against a global superpower and its friends. While Pakistan has all the tools of the state to crush terrorism, the terrorists merely have to lie low and choose a few high-profile targets. This makes them look more powerful and numerous than they are, and inflicts painful wounds on the Pakistani state`s image of control.

For his part, Haider says that Pakistan does have a vision for itself, set out by Pakistan`s founding father, Muhammad Ali Jinnah. ``We believe in moderate Islam, not in political Islam,`` says Haider.

Like many Pakistanis, Haider says the rise of religious extremists in Pakistan was the result of America`s proxy war against the Soviets who invaded neighboring Afghanistan. With no hint of sarcasm, Haider says Pakistan received ``four gifts`` from the Afghan war: foreign-supported religious extremists, a booming narcotics trade, a thriving gun culture, and millions of Afghan refugees who never went home.

``President Musharraf`s government, even before the 11th of September, took very strong measures against terrorism,`` he says. ``We are continuously working to tackle all these groups and to bring about a good law and order situation.... But obviously these people have been on the ground here for the past 20 years. It will require a few months to bring everything under the state control.``

At the same time, Haider says his government has been showing some new flexibility with extremists. ``Many of these people who were part of the parties, now are getting back to the government, saying ... `give us an opportunity to give up membership in these parties and lead the life of a responsible citizen.` But those people who ... wish to challenge the government, and indulge in crime or terrorism, will be dealt with severely.``

Government critics say ridding the country of extremism will take more than invoking the 55-year-old vision of Jinnah.

``Even though the top hierarchy of these outfits are in jail, there`s a cadre that has developed across the board, united by a cause,`` says Mansoor Taamnan, a former member of parliament under the center-right Pakistan Muslim League. ``We are looking for corrective changes in law and order, but we need more than that to face this disaffection. We need a counter vision to these extremists, and we don`t have that right now.``

Others say Pakistan should move more quickly toward addressing the ``root causes`` of violence, including poverty, illiteracy, and the growing prominence of religious seminaries, or madrassahs, which are often the only place where poor rural children can receive an education.

Haider says that combating illiteracy is one of his top priorities but that Pakistan could never rid itself of madrassas, even if it wanted to. ``If we had 100 percent resources to organize a general education system for all Pakistani children, some people by choice would go to madrassas to learn about religion,`` he says, adding that some madrassas offer excellent schooling.

Over the short term, however, Haider recognizes that his attention must remain focused on reining in terrorist groups, and even individuals who carry out suicide bombing missions, such as the attack on the Protestant International Church in Islamabad. ``The church attack was an unfortunate incident and we are doing our very best to see the motive behind this and the culprits behind this,`` he says.(CSM)

Jay,

If US can grant citizenship to former Nazis, Dawood Ibrahim is a small fish. I am not sure it really happened, but if it did, so be it.

-YLH

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/040402/detnat06.asp

THE ABC OF JIHAD AND JIHAD FACTORY(PAKISTAN)

Kashmiri jihadis got special training

Yashwant Raj

(Sheberghan (Afghanistan), April 3



Pakistan`s terror merchants exported hundreds of their fellow citizens into Afghanistan to try and save the Taliban regime from US attack. One kind of terrorist was held back. This was the jihadi born in India.

Not one of the Pakistani prisoners interviewed by the Hindustan Times in a jail here in northern Afghanistan, near Mazar-i-Sharif, recalled meeting an Indian Kashmiri jihadi in Afghanistan.

It was not as though there were no Indian Kashmiris available at the time. There were plenty of them around, for instance, in the training camps of Jaish-e-Mohammed and Harkat ul Jehad-i-Islami.

There were around 100 Indian Kashmiris at Balakot, Jaish-e-Mohammed`s camp in Pakistan`s North West Frontier Province (not in PoK as reported earlier), around the time Zulfikar Ali left for Afghanistan.

``They were housed in a separate enclosure. And their training was different. It lasted four months and was rigorous,`` Zulfikar said. Most of those sent to Afghanistan had received only 15 or 30 days of training.

In jihadi language, the Indians were given `Al Ahladeed` training, which, a Harkat ul Jehad Islami prisoner explained, was special training, higher on the difficulty scale than Tahsisia that supposedly follows the elementary stage.

The Indian Kashmiris were better trained. And perhaps better motivated. Many of the jailed jihadis said the fight in Kashmir is considered so tough that only the best and the highly motivated can cope.

Zaid Ahmad, a 20-year-old activist from Karachi, refused to be launched despite completing a six-month-long commando course in four months. His resolve, he admits, wavered when the time came.

Besides, Zaid said, he was absolutely disgusted by the attitude of an Indian Kashmiri (called waadi - valley - Kashmiris) he met at a Harkat ul Jehad Islami camp in Kotli, in Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir.

``He said something that put me off completely,`` said Zaid. ``We are fighting their war for them and here they are abusing my country. I decided let them fight their own battle - despite what the mullahs have to tell us.``

He left the camp and the Harkat ul Jehad Islami shortly, and took off for Afghanistan on his own.

While he was there though he saw plenty of Indian Kashmiris who were kept away from the Pakistanis, he says, for tactical reasons.

He says, ``There is a possibility that waadi Kashmiris may reveal during interrogation, if and when captured, identities of people they met while during training or launching.`` That`s why they are kept away.

Pmishra

``The Palestinians are lucky they are dealing with the Israelis, an arab goverement would have killed every one of them by now.``

Exactly well said... and what would have been worse would be if they were being oppressed by Indians... for then not only would they be killed, they would raped, and burnt alive en masse.

Thank God Palestinians are only facing the humane Israelis!

``lipservice lipservice lipservice...that is what the arab do for pakistan and it`s constant barking over kashmir...it is called lipservice...``

Voting on UN security Council resolutions can hardly be called `lipservice`. That was not your point earlier. I admit that we Pakistanis are surrounded by fools and dogs. On one side we have you guys who have sunk your teeth deep into the flesh of Kashmir like a rabid bull dog, and on the other side we have the pussies from the Middle East...

Your point, which was something else, has been countered in detail. I wish to say no more on this topic. We will persevere, survive and the final victory will be ours inshallah, and that is a promise!

urstru1y - hmmm .... thank god for some people with brains in the army .... wish the kashmiris were only in danger of being spoilt silly,wooed and courted by the indian establishment !!! why oh, why can`t they use the carrot ??????

As a kid on vacation in the valley in the 70`s I remember the houseboat, shikara and ski lift operators talking of wanting ITDC Hotels in the valley ... getting Amitabh Bachans autograph in Gurmarg during the shooting of ``Kasme-Wade`` - no bollywood shoots in Gulmarg any more - no tourists in Dal Lake houseboats ... no kiddos from New Delhi swimming in the Nagin Lake ... no loud Punjabi`s in Pahalgaum ... no nice shikara man saying to 9 year old brat ``Beta apne bacchon ko bhi lana`` in the ``Queen of Kashmir`` shikara ...