The Great Illusion

Prem #435
See, its impossible to undersell the genus Indian women even to make a worthwhile/valid point. Wasn`t there was a time after Hum Aapke Hain Kaun when there was this Pakistani slogan ``Kashmir le lo, Madhuri de do``. :).

Shankar

Review my post to you - I said to you that your angry and defensive post was something to the effect of a: ``first response or reaction`` - that sooner or later you would get it - sooner or later you would have to deal with the heart of the post.

Embarassed to be Hindu? - I could not be less interested - What`s bugging me about this ``sorry, embarassed`` bit is that it is not going into the ACTION phase - soon, it will be another event in a long series of events - we`ll all get used to it - ``just one of those things`` - and if it does become that, we both know it will happen again and again and it will have consequences almost all Indian nationalists would want to avoid -

And I must tell you that it worries me that I and I think most on Chowk, do not understand the how and why of whole thing - and for whatever reason, seem unable to get to the ``how and why``.

On Caste - I discussed this someone else who has not posted on this board and their opinion was that caste has nothing to do with it - that there was just too much bad blood between the two antagonist/protagonist - in my opinion it does - how? Caste allows the inequality to function, not as merely economic or class structure but in a more fundamental way - rooted in Jaat/Zaat (in a biological basis or sense) -``Babar ki aulaad`` are not just ``invaders``, their non-Indianness is deeply connected to their not being, Hindus - that is, they are outside the framework of most Indians - and caste no longer functions to bind in ways benign to Hindus Indians - but, as a potent force of religious, racial (in a biological Zaat/Jaat sense) and nationalistic discrimination. I think this point deserves attention either after or simultaneously with the effort to understand how and why of the events in Gujrat and have an end put to them.

Reply Nagnatheshwar # 430

“Now its no news that communal riots is like a switch on & switch off...thanks to Laloo Yadav.Bihar was endemic for riots thanks to him Bagalpur was the last major one in that part of the country .For 15 years approx.Laloo not out of goodnes of heart but for MY Muslim Yadav alliance has kept his end of the bargain by arresting Advani in 89 just as he entered his borders arresting him .That done everything else was simbly easy.”

In so many words, we have the technology…but at times it benefits some people for us not to use it.

Solution...

re:Reply #: 436

Prem,

I had written at length on the caste system in another forum. I am no expert but i have read interpretations of caste system by various authorities. Caste system was initially (pre-vedic times when settlers came and settled in the area of modern Sindh)based on vocation. Brahmins were those engaged in scholarly work and interpretation of scriptures, ethics, social morals etc. Hence, a number of texts in those times including the now infamous Manusmriti.

Brahmins had an unfair advantage as they came to dominate all walks of life. Their help was needed from the time a baby was born, during marriage, during death ceremony etc.

Warrior race, though second to the brahmins in hierarchy, was in no way subservient. Brahmins were respected and held in awe for their spirituality and scholarship. However, king`s decision was still final and no brahmin of the day could overrule him. There were often frictions between the two (read the fascinating story of clash of Devayani, Sage Shukra`s daughter against Sharmishta, the princess in the chapter on Yayati in Mahabharata).

With time, traders (Vaishyas)became a powerful force. They supported Ashoka in his quest for power. Buddhism rose to power with tremendous support from this class. Shudras were mostly prisoners of wars. They were not outcastes but did menial jobs.

In the beginning, there was a free mobility between the castes (Veda Vyasa and Valmiki were both non-brahmins by birth but attained great stature and came to be recognised as brahmins ie knower of truth). Much later, it became hierarchial. Caste system, in an effort at self-preservation, became much more rigid during the muslim rule. For eg. many Rajput princesses preferred Sati to humiliation by muslim rulers. No brahmin ever forced this on them. It was a decision taken out of desperation. Rani Padmini`s fame only reinforced this tradition.

Varna in sanskrit means both color and class. Sanskrit is a rich language. You can talk about the same thing in different ways. For eg Sun can be talked of in sanskrit as Surya, Aditya, or Bhaskara etc. One word can have two different meanings depending on the context in which the word is used. For eg. the word Dwija (twice-born)may be used for both a brahmin and a bird.

Aryan Invasion Theory itself is being questioned today. If all brahmins were fair colored, why is one of my cousins as dark as an Afro-American. Such classification has been used by European Indologists, who were biased in the first place. However, the caste system that India had in place in 19th century (even today)is clearly discriminatory. It is not just brahmin vs rest. The discrimination exists at all levels and across all castes.

Sridhar

An brief informational note on ``Varna.``

I think a few lines on this subject are necessary. If people want to discuss this subject in greater detail, I will be happy to join them later. As of now, my intention is to merely make a statement, not to enter into any ``my religion is this,`` ``your religion is that`` debate.

It is argued that varna means color. Therefore the varna system is a system based on skin color. This theory fits well with the observation that Aryans were a fairer people who, probably, subjugated the local darker-skinned population. Then Aryans imposed a system of discrimination based on color, in which the local darker people were assigned an inferior position of sudras.

This theory has been propagated most forcefully by dalit scholars, who have equated caste with racism. Personally, I have had no issues with that approach. I believe that the system of caste is so evil that ANY stick to beat it with is justified. Since it MY religion we are dealing with, I don`t mind people using false arguments to set things right. In fact, I am delighted Dalits were able to use the conference against racism as an opportunity to further their cause and highlight their situation. The more hammering we get on this issue, the better it is for us. But I will never take recourse to false arguments to score points with or distort other religions.

Unfortunately, that is precisely what is happening. Writings and opinions of Dalits - that many of us do not contest simply as a mark of respect for the long suffering Dalits - are taken by the bigots of other religions to strengthen their shaky arguments.

What does Varna mean?

It probably is useless for people to wrap their minds around Sanskrit terms and Indian constructs unless they develop a facility for broad, abstract, symbolic thinking. Most Sanskrit terms have an array of meanings, and are deployed in a variety of ways, with different contextual emphases.

Let me ask people a few questions:

I. If varna is used in the sense of color (only one of the word`s meanings), then what does the term ``avarna`` mean?

2. If varna is used in the sense of color, then what is the relationship of Upnayana ceremony and ``color?``

3. If varna is used in the sense of color, when what is the relationship of ``color`` with sanyas ashrama?

4. If varna is used in the sense of color, then how were the color ``gradations`` determined between A brahmin and a Khastriya, A kshatriya and a vaishya? What color distinctions existed between a vaishya and a sudra?

5. If varna is used in the sense of color, when how does one connect color to sanskara and to dharma?

6. If varna is a system of color gradation then what explains the fact that within the Hindu trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, the only truly WHITE god - Brahma is assumed to be cursed and is NEVER worshipped by Hindus. Or, that Shiva is often depicted as dark, while Vishna takes human forms in a dark complexion? Rama is dark. Krishna is dark.

7. If varna is used in the sense of color, and if color is so important to Hindu consciousness, then how on earth is Shakara - the greatest Hindu philosopher and religious leader of the last thousand years - as dark as they come?!

It will be very strange to accuse Christians of being white supremacists if they always depicted Jesus Christ as a black, and if their pope was a black person.

I would love to know answers to these questions. I don`t, and Hindus in general shouldn`t, debate these points with Dalits. Dalits have been victimized enough. We should let them heal themselves in whatever way they see best. But that doesn`t mean that non Dalits should be given the same pass to advance their own narrow agendas.

{Jesus! I detest feeling like a religious teacher}

re: Shankar # 434

``What got me angry was that you were implying & stating (ie if I understand your posts & read between the lines) that because of their religion, hindus are all inherently ``morally nuetered`` & bigots, most of them. If I misunderstood what you are saying, I apologise. But if I`m on the mark,then I have a very serious problem with you.``

Precisely. Either hobbyty didn`t mean that, or doesn`t know a thing about Hinduism today. I had responded to hobbyty`s post, but chowk seems to have lost that response. I am resubmitting it so hobbyty can see that charges of racism can not be made only against Indians and Hindus.

re: hobbyty # 409

You accuse Hindus of racism, but the only people I see as openly racist bigots are Pakistanis (correct me if I am wrong).

Your friend Urstruly # 408 has a compulsive need to call Sadna ``Kali Mata.`` Earlier, your nationals have resorted to responding to her by describing her imagined physical features because in their eyes she belongs to some race not as ``beautiful`` as theirs. We have had Pakistanis going into obscene ecstasies over how ``white`` their daughters are, and they must marry ``whiter`` people to improve their gene-pool! We have here grown up Pakistanis actually believing they form some ``brave martial races`` who, because of their physical differences, have a military edge over Indians or Bengalis or whosoever else. How delusional can one get!

Dear Hobbyty, listen to the truth. One of the reasons, Pakistani military repeatedly got into wars with India has been that there was (I hope there is not anymore, although romair constantly proves otherwise) institutionalized structural and cultural racism in Pakistani military eating into its intellect as a cancer. Jesus! What a moron one has to be to believe ``One muslim (read Pakistani) is equal to ten Hindus (read Indian, for that is how Pakistani military sees its simple world). What is more, your military did not even spare its own majority population - Bengalis - for the crime of not being white and fair! It is the same mindset - a racist minority trying to lord over the majority. You, hobbyty, are the true inheritors of racist brahaminism today. Same exclusivist dogma, same fascism.

There is a lot of stupid color consciousness on both sides of the border, but when it comes to modern-day racism, you guys take the bakery. In India, the rise of the south and the political empowerment of dalits is slowly but surely churning up the entire color scene. The number of so-called ``fairer`` north Indian girls marrying ``darker`` Indians men from the south has sky-rocketed, even though language remains a barrier. On a personal basis, I have become disgusted with this notion of ``whiteness`` and hope that India becomes darker by the day. That will be a way to teach these ``white`` wallas a lesson.

The point, hobbyty, is that racism is a curse, Indian or Pakistani. There are lots of Indian morons who run after ``fair`` or ``white`` Indian/foreign girls; kowtow to ``white`` men; but one has to be particularly cussed to blame such attitudes only on Indians or Hinduism. Particularly, when all the evidence on Chowk and elsewhere points to the contrary.

Again, your mixing up of caste and varna and color is silly, no matter what you might have read on some websites.

hobbyty,

{{no one, certainly not any chowkie, has any idea why it happened and why it was not or could not be stopped; that interests me more than inadequate quality of my call to action post.}}

Agreed. However, the consensus of opinion in the overwhelming majority of Chowkies, is that we are embarrassed to be hindu & Indian today. That our religion & India`s politics is hijacked by the BJP & especially the RSS wing. Just like a lot of muslims are ashamed that their religion is hijacked by the jehadis.

Even people who hardly ever agrees with me (Saxena) agrees that he`s embarrassed. I was disillusioned by the BJP & have been cursing them on Chowk, ever since I came here. We`re hoping with (much confidence) that the BJP will be trounced in the next religion because the majority of hindus in India will vote against it. If our hopes dont come true, we will be even more dissappointed.

What got me angry was that you were implying & stating (ie if I understand your posts & read between the lines) that because of their religion, hindus are all inherently ``morally nuetered`` & bigots, most of them. If I misunderstood what you are saying, I apologise. But if I`m on the mark,then I have a very serious problem with you.

Hobbyty,

One additional, serious, issue to help us understand where you come from. You quoted Marianne Pearl`s wonderful, moving, deeply human words. She is a remarkable, delightful, admirable lady. May we be blessed with many many more of her kind. I hope you will agree.

The basic moral dictums guiding Marianne Pearl`s behavior, IMO, were:

-we should not hold grudges against those who might have hurt us. As human beings we should seek to forgive others.

-we should bring people from different backgrounds together in order to forge a common human brotherhood/sisterhood, not separate human beings into isolated, cultist communities, each out for itself.

Do you share these ideals? I very much hope you do.

re: hobbyty # 428

Hobbyty, it is certaily possible that we Indians, or I in particular, do not understand the nature of social dynamics as well as you do. Still, don`t you think it would be IRRATIONAL for us to take your advice at all unless you (1) offered the same advice to Indians/Hindus that you offer to Pakistanis/Muslims; and (2) were a person of goodwill?

Think of it logically. Let us assume that you are a brilliant man. As a brilliant man, you have expressed your desire that Pakistan (your country) be strengthened and India (not your country) break up. You also also made clear that you are an Islamist interested in the ``unity and welfare`` of ``all Muslims.`` Unless I missed it, you have made no such statement about your desire for the ``unity and welfare`` of ``all Hindus.``

Under these conditions, it will NOT be rational for Indians or Hindus to follow what you tell us. It WILL be rational for us to follow what you tell Pakistanis and Muslims.

All is not lost. You could still be extremely helpful, and influential, if you could make statements such as -

As I emphatically tell our Pakistanis, you Indians should ....

As I emphatically tell our Muslims, you Hindus should....

I am sure many Indians will take those pieces of advice very seriously.

Regards.

Zafar and Dost,

Both of you seem to have put your finger on some key issues. As soon as I heard of the train incident, my heart sank in fear of the riots that might break out, particularly in a place like Lucknow where we have such a strong presence of both Hindus and Muslims. Luckily, amazingly good sense among common people, proactive steps by the administration, and God`s grace all combined to keep Lucknow, like most other places, peaceful.

In Gujarat, two related and destructive effects came together: (1) Very high degree of communalization at the level of the common man, and (2) passing of the state power in the hand of a religious fascist. The results were tragic and disastrous; and are a wake up call to all secularists. All of us were becoming too sanguine, assuming that the virus of communalism was slowly dying away a natural death. We overlooked the fact that while the poison of communalism was ebbing on one hand, it was being piled mile high, once again, by neo-fascists in power.

General Appeal to Indians -

I see some people still discussing ``who did it first?`` We CAN NOT think along those lines. If merely a couple of people from both communities had died, it would make sense to ask which of those people started the fire. We are far beyond that stage. We must understand the structural and deeper reasons that led this enormous tragedy on both sides.

There is another important reason why ``whose fault was it?`` kind of discussion is unhealthy for all Indians. This kind of argumentation always ends up as if we were JUSTIFYING one kind of barbaric behavior or another. And there can be no justification at all. Can there be ANY justification for the burning down of that train? Can there be ANY justification for the mass murders that followed? None. When we begin to ``justify`` one or the other, we show our own bias. It is time to rise above our biases.

Re: Zafar Al Talib

``...We have no right to be accepted as civilised people until we learn to respect the human rights of our people before we are forced to do so by some international agency...``

The more I read about Gujarat, the more ashamed I am of being an India and a Hindu. I think that if the BJP do not clean up their act, and find the guilty (there are so many in Gujarat) then some sort of international condemnation of the Gujarat govt. and/or Indian govt. is in order. I will support such a move, because I know that the Indian government is VERY sensitive to such condemnation. I won`t be very happy doing so, but I feel morally bound to do so because it may save somebody`s life -- and that is more precious than India`s prestige. UK Gujaratis have already initiated legal proceedings against Modi for genocide (he can`t go to EU anymore without expecting trouble) -- and it is time that the BJP leadership clean up their house.

The BJP (through Modi, Bajrang Dal, VHP, RSS) has killed innocents and wounded India, and I am very angry. They have breached public trust. I once supported the BJP after being disillusioned by the instability of the left/center governments -- but I am regretting my naivette.

I think that there is a lot of work ahead of us in changing people`s hearts and minds -- the BJP and the Sangh Parivar have spread a lot of poison. I implore Indians to visit some India-based Internet boards and counter the hate that is to be found there.

Prem

You are confused and misrepresent about what I tell Muslims or what I think Muslims and Islam should do or think. You cannot seem to get past your one theory, one model, fits all approach - and I can see why you would have a problem discerning multiplcity of positions in a complex environment. However; if you think I am in error and you want an explnation, especially on the positions I have taken on general isssue on Islam, I would welcome the opportunity to the record straight.

On Irony - I don`t see any irony, but I do see a more practiced and talented hand in her piece - Marianne`s piece is a call to action, is was mine. However; I was mistaken, wrong, to to be as emohatic as I came across and was wrong to not allow for Hindu Indians to see their interest in joining my call to action. All hindu Indians saw was what that I made no distinction between caste and the Hindu religion - thus Hindu Indians could not go past what they percieved as an unjustified attack on the religion itself. This was certainly my wrong and I admit it.

In my opinion, You have not proceeded as yet to the ``call to action`` part - I don`t know about you, but I would wager, you are about as clueless about why the events in Gujrat happened and why they continue to happen and why all efforts to arrest this development seem to not meet with any success. Dost has begun to discuss it but as the rest of us, does not really understand how it could happen, is still in the condemnation phase -- I think it is incredible that after more than two months, no one, certainly not any chowkie, has any idea why it happened and why it was not or could not be stopped; that interests me more than inadequate quality of my call to action post.

Reply Dost-Mittar # 423

``In fact I am somewhat pleasantly surprised that it was limited to Gujarat; I even expected it to go beyond Gujarat and especially to Bombay, which, thank Bhagwan (and maybe Bal Thackeray), has been quiet.``

Dost-Mittarji

Bombay was peaceful because there were 2000 (two thousand) preventive arrests made before the March 15 bandh. (Sainiks, etc. Thackeray didn`t like it.)

Similarly, Kutch was largely peaceful because of preventive, or prompt in the case of instigation, arrests made of (you guessed it) BJP and VHP workers.

Where the Govt fulfilled its Raj Dharm there was no violence. Something to think about.

Zafar

To me, this made the handling of the aftermath even more unforgivable. Since the reaction could have been easily anticipated, the govt. should have taken immediate steps to douse the fires as soon as they started; instead the rulers added fuel to the fire by their incendiary statements. THIS I find unforgivable, especially since this is not an exception but the general reaction to any sectarian violence in India. We have no right to be accepted as civilised people until we learn to respect the human rights of our people before we are forced to do so by some international agency.

Hobbyty,

Did you ever ask yourself why you did not do what Mariane Pearl did? She quoted from Quran to reach out to Muslims - a community whose members had harmed her. Did you quote from the Gita or Ramayan or the Vedas to similarly appeal to the positive side of the Hindus? What you did was to offer us bigotted theories about things you know nothing of, revealing a shocking ignorance of a tradition about which one would have expected you to know at least a little bit.

Hobbyty, this blinkered world-view is hurting you more than it is hurting anybody else.

re: hobbyty # 421

Does the utter irony of your posting Mariane Pearl`s letter escape you?! Here she is, going out of her way, to show respect to a tradition that has screwed her up, and asking for a positive co-operative moving forward! She knows she can not blame all Muslims for what some Muslims did to her. She is NOT asking all Christians to gang up and ``unite`` against all infidel Muslims. And what does Hobbyty tell Muslims??

- That the whole world is screwing Muslims.

- That Muslims should unite to take on the world.

- That they should go back to the Islam.

- To move forward is to turn into Islamists, to isolate themselves. You call that identity!!

It sounds very much like Jihadis quoting Gandhi!!

That is why I said, hobbyty...one doesn`t know what you stand for... Is it ``to forgive our enemies`` as Marianne Pearl has so eloquently done?

Dost Mitter

I agree with your last lines. I am convinced that our national and reilgious self-interests can only be promoted, protected, and made to flourish unless we transcend bigotry against the self-interest (of same) of the other. That goal cannot be achived unless we are united and vocal against bigotry. Our voice against bigotry must be at least as loud as that of bigotry if not louder. Unfortunately, it is us, you and me, who has to do it. No one else would do the work which is ours.