The Great Illusion

SC admits Mallika Sarabhai’s petition

SHYAM PAREKH

TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ MONDAY, APRIL 15, 2002 4:02:26 PM ]

AHMEDABAD: The Supreme Court on Monday issued rule and admitted a petition seeking to fix liability of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, Bharatiya Janata Party and others in the recent riots in Gujarat.

The petition also sought to implement the National Human Righs Commission’s (NHRC) interim report and appointing it as a commission of inquiry into the riots.

A bench comprising Chief Justice Of India Justice S P Bharucha, Justice Shivraj V Patil and Justice H K Sema heard the petition which has been moved by Mallika Sarabhai and others.

Senior counsel P Chidambaram alongwith K G Vakharia and Tushar Mehta appeared for the petitioner.

The petitioners have also sought to fix up the responsibility of the state government and concerned police officers and to direct suitable actions against them.

It was prayed that the liability of the state, the VHP and the BJP should be determined and they be directed to pay the compensation for loss of life, injuries and properties.

An appointment of the impartial authority to survey the loss caused on account of the communal riots and to determine adequate compensation for relief and rehabilitation.

The respondents are the Union of India, Chief Minister Narendra Modi, and others.

The petitioner have also sought directions for the appointment of a special investigating team to probe into the crimes committed from February 27, 2002, on account of the communal riots which took place in Gujarat.

Such a team should be directed to invite publicly the complaints from victims of crime due to communal riots and register such complaints under section 154 of the CrPC, the petition submitted.

Directions were also sought to appoint a team to survey the loss caused to the residential and business properties on account of the communal riots, to determine the amount of compensation for the aforesaid losses and to determine the compensation for each and every victim of communal riots.

The petitioner`s early demand seeking direction to quash and set aside the notification dated March 6, 2002, was rejected by the apex court.

Shankar#481

Bravo!!! For the first time you showed some guts. Good reply to Prof Hobbs. Someone already said that Hobbs is ardently Hindu-hating bigot. But he nicely hides his bigotry and hatred in complicated phrases and big words. Anyone who reads him for sometime can call his bluff. I wonder when will he come out in the open and declare that he hates ALL HINDUS as KAFIRS without exception, simply because they follow Hinduism, an idolatrous religion. Honesty is the best policy, Hobbs. And just for the record, most of the pakistani muslims do feel this way, barring exceptions like Samir,Fuzair,Hamidm,tahmed,scout,saminashah. Had it been in their hands, they would have exterminated Hindus from the face of the earth.

re hindu vs muslim hatred

i respect any hindu who respects me as a pakistani muslim not a ``indian low caste -break way province convert to islam``

faor enough as for those pakistanis who said i should have made hindu friends been there done that

Shankar

For all your protest about not caring - it`s curious that of all the persons who could, it was you who choose to respond - It`s sad that instead of responding to burning and shooting of those you claim as your fellow citizens - your only response is that Hindus are not happy about it - OK, but what has anyone done about it, what has any Indian done to see that it comes to an end - daily there are reports of carnage - if sitting on one`s thumbs is enough that certainly Hindus have responded in the way they think appropriate, My point here has been that it`s not enough to say that one is saddened by such reports - these reports are not suggestive of this being an aberration, but rather that it is executed by plan - this is the conclusion of the British embassy in Delhi, they are not Pakistani agents are they - You know very well, this is indefensible and I`m genuinely saddened that you seem not to be able to rise above national or religious pride - DO something about this, enough talk - DO something or influence someone to do something - anything, just act!

``..our ``mock`` democracy is a thousand times better than any system of govt you jokers have setup.`` BACK to MINE IS BIGGER? Idiot, don`t tell me, show me! You`re better, good, show me. ``Every Indian govt has reserved seats in every educational institution & govt jobs. A lot of more time is needed before castes become redundant.`` - Why are defending this evil? The fact the govt. has to reserve and gaurantee jobs is itself proof of the social evil of caste.

``Who the F are YOU to stand in moral judgement of hindus?`` Who the F do I have to be, or who the F does anyone have to be? Why do you find yourself in this position? A Muslim, Pakistani conspiracy? Why this arrogant defensiveness? If you are as upset and as morally injured as you say, why are persons such as you not stopping or influening those who can stop this? ````Morally neutered by the curse of the caste``!! Caste is an evil, you know it but you want ot get on hind legs and growl at me with arrogance and defiance? - You are an idiot because you have failed to respond to these posts appropriately - that is to accept responsibility and DO SOMETHING TO STOP THIS !

It`s easier for you to you hate me, Pakistan suc/ks the big one, etc., - why is it that you are chosing to respond in this way? think about it, why so defensive, why blame me or Pakistan for a nerve Indians are responsible for having left exposed? Caste is a curse because it arrests society, it imprisons minds and souls, it promotes bigotry - it is bigotry!

Think how different are the positions you offer me than those that Mr. Modi offers - you both argue action/reaction - this is unacceptable! You may not accept such an argument because it morally unsupportable!!!

Is Allah the judge of us all? Of course but the living have a responsibility, especially if it is to be life or death to some innocent - Do not be decieved by this ``non-judgemental`` rubbish - it is but a judgement itself.

Just how old of a man are you? I thought you were a grown man - what`s this rubbish about kicking of balls? What`s all this rubbish about ``we`` and ``us``?

You are a pyschiatrist and you say to me that these are things that ``insenced you about my post:

``Generally speaking, The majority of Hindu indians are intellectually and morally neutered by the curse of caste and as they become more aware of it - they become angrier.``

Have I not made my point - Did I posit a untruth -Do you yourself not admit it, in your ``incensed`` defensiveness?

Respect, Hatred, Ball kicking, Giving 10 times more, Fighting? Look, why don`t you understand that if you cannot do these things with persons you call your own, just how much value are your words (however deeply felt or sincere they may be) going to be to anyone else?

You know something..Pakistan has done more harm to the cause of Indian muslims, by fanning the flames than any other nation on earth.``

Indeed, this is Mr. Modi`s argument as well - it seems Pakistan and Pakistanis have Indian Muslims as puppets - can this true? The social, political and religious dynamics of Indian society do not effect Indian Muslims but Pakistan and Pakistanis do? ``Incensed`` is no way to go thru life - it`s scary to others and it`s downright destructive. Once again, Prove me wrong in my assertions, DO something to put an end to these burnings and killings or influence someone who can - Don`t do it for Pakistan or Pakistanis or ``Muslims`` - What does it mean to be a Hindu?

Prof Hobbs,

No hindu on Chowk is rejoicing at what our fellow hindus are doing in Gujrat. Almost to a person, hindus have expressed their dismay & outrage at what is happening. The majority of hindus in India are angry at the BJP now..recent election results are telling the story...our ``mock`` democracy is a thousand times better than any system of govt you jokers have setup.

Yes,we need to recognise & guarantee Indian muslims the same rights as hindus have. We really dont need Pakistanis like you giving us sermons of what needs to be done.

As far as Kashmir is concerned, I have always stated India is wrong & Kashmir needs to go independant. That doesnt mean Pakistan is right. I think Pakistan has done more harm than good to the Kashmiris in India.

Here are excerpts of your post to fawad that incensed me:

{{If you were unaware before, now you know the hypocracy and hostility of the Indians. Generally speaking, The majority of Hindu indians are intellectually and morally neutered by the curse of caste and as they become more aware of it - they become angrier. Their only recourse has been to turn to the left; imagining that the self hatred can be washed away in a ``clean canvas.`` Other Hindus have embraced a ``Muscular`` Hinduism. who can fail to understanding the self loathing in that ``muscular`` arrival.}}

Who the F are YOU to stand in moral judgement of hindus? Dont you think only a mind as wise as Allah is qualified for the job?

``Morally neutered by the curse of the caste``!!

Wah! Kya psychoanalysis mara aap ne yahan!

Every Indian govt has reserved seats in every educational institution & govt jobs. A lot of more time is needed before castes become redundant. But hinduism & govt are recognising its a long & difficult job that needs to be started somewhere. God forbid if the govt tried to get some fairness with muslim social problems..like the Shah Bano case..hoo boy , what a hue & cry the muslims kicked up!

{{Recall they consider the Kashmiri, ``their own people`` as well and look what they have done to them - imagine what they want to do to us - but, Thanks to God and vigilance - they will remain in their cage.}}

I`ll tell you what we want to do with you:

1) If you come to us with respect, we`ll give you respect.

2) If you come to us showing how big your balls are, we`ll kick you in it.

3) If you come to us with hatred, we`ll give you back 10 times more.

4)If you come to us looking for a fight, we`ll give you one you wont believe. Of course, you can always proclaim ``a great victory for Pakistan``

5) If you want nothing to do with us, it will suit us just fine.

But NEVER EVER think that we want your precious Pakistan for ourselves. That is like eating a piece of rotten meat & dying of food poisoning.

{{The Indian Muslims who write on these boards of are basically busy earning the goodwill of the ``majority`` - Farzana is the exception,}}

Oh absolutely! Zafar & nasah have been warned that if they post any anti-hindu words, they will get a severe trashing from us!

Shows how petty your pathetic mind is...muslims that dont agree with the ``true muslims`` of Pakistan are hindu stooges, their water-boys, their chamchas. In the end, thats what you think of those muslims who decided to stay in India: ``they are nothing but cowards..hindu sychophants..we pity them all``

{{- even so many Indian Muslim despises the Muslim - }}

Haha..that was a beaut..you psycho idiot..

Those Pakistanis who dont agree with your scintillating views are, I guess, the ``seculars``, the pseudoliberal besharam commies..or maybe it was your comrade Urstruly who said that.

You know something..Pakistan has done more harm to the cause of Indian muslims, by fanning the flames than any other nation on earth.



{{what is your observation of Indians on Chowk - are they not a range, but they all have one thing in common - they despise the Muslim, they won`t come out and say it,}}

Whoah..look at the pot calling the kettle black!

I`ll tell you what comes out plainly, you wont come out & say it: you despise the Hindu!

Islam is the perfect religion. Anyone who is not following Islam will not be the Chosen people. They follow a God who is not as perfect as Allah. Especially those kafir hindu idolators! They pray to stinking idols of rock..a blasphemy to Allah for which they will never see jannat. That place is only reserved for the pious, the pure of heart like us, the TRUE MUSLIM. Yes,its also reserved for those brave ``homicide bombers`` who kill innocent civilians. they are holy martyrs for a just jihad!

Oh no! Tauba tauba! You wont say it so plainly..but we read between the lines quite well.

OK ..in the end..who gives a flying f--- about what your opinions about hindus & Indians are?! You are just about as insignificant as a dimple on the pimple of the left ball of an ant!

So why am I wasting my time with you? You Pakistanis have had a ball all these years.. cursing & hating hindus openly & publicly in your country. No hindu in Pakistan (the few who are left) would dare to challenge your crap. Now you come across hindus in cyberspace. Well, these hindus will give you a taste of your own medicine 10 times over. You are not used to be challenged on your prejudices, are you!

Because, I`ve seen how many of you react when you are given a taste of your own medicine--you gasp! & proclaim hindus are filled with hate & THEY are uncivilised.

Abey Pakistanis!...first fight the jihad of injustice & oppression in your own ``egalitarian`` society ..then maybe you can fight your jihad with us.

Until then, nobody will take you seriously... no matter how ``valid`` or ``moral`` you think your beef with India is. Not even your fellow ``brother`` muslim nations..

I was NEVER being defensive...just brutally honest..

Shankar

A most gratifying response. But I recognize it as a first response and consider it highly defensive. There can be obscuring the continued failures in Gujrat, in Kashmir and elsewhere in India - no amount of ``Democracy,`` ``secularism,`` or ``Enshrined Constitution`` can hide both moral and political failures of the worrisome proportions, that continue to afflict India. No amount of defensiveness in the name of ``Hindus`` or Indian nationalism will hide the failure to take responsibility and the failure to respond appropriately.

Who does one have to be, to point out the continued failure in Gujrat and Kashmir? Just who can get through to persons as defensive as you come across in your post?

You are free to hate any Muslim you choose to hate but you are only hammering the nails on your coffin - here`s the facts: You`re not going anywhere, in India or outside it, without making peace with Muslims - regardless of whom you love or hate, if you refuse to play the rules, refuse to apply law equally to Muslims in India, you only make it that much easier for those who see present day India as a threat to humanity, to hasten the day when political cohesion and territorial integrity will be distant memory in minds of ``Indians.`` So, by all means hate all you like, that only goes to prove my assertion that hate is what unifies Indians, gives them meaning.

Muslims far from perfect? duh! But what does it have to do with Hindus lack of response to what is happening in Gujrat or Kashmir? What does it have to do with Indians claims that theirs is a secular polity when their premier publicly states his anti-Muslim bias? Why are Muslim civil servants requesting transfer out of Gujrat on ``humanitarian`` grounds? - Before you respond with the defensiveness with which you have responded, think about whether or not I have written anything that you yourself or anyone else can refute on the basis of reported facts? If my post has hurt you or caused you injury, good! your and other Hindus conscience need pricking - you need to understand that this situation is not acceptable and if you find it acceptable, you must explain why - And if you and others find it unacceptable, why does it continue to persist??

Pakistan stinks! And so, India must stink as well?? Pakistani army was brutal in Bangladesh! And so, Indians should burn Muslims in Gujrat?? Continue to kill in Kashmir? - Aren`t these persons being burned and shot regardless of their confession, Indian?? What the heck is wrong with you? Will you lose your conscience because a Pakistani has none?? Your post in indefensible and objectionable - Your response should have been to be behave in a way that refutes my post - demonstrate that it is not true that Hindus are intellectually and morally neutered by caste - demonstrate that they can rise above - demonstrate that Democracy and Tolerance are understood by Hindus - instead you say you hate me and others - OK, but sooner, rather than later, because it`s already later than you think, Indians will have to awaken from this monstrous bargain it has made with those who posit that being Indian means being Hindu - and awaken to responsibility - You want to gauge what that`s like? Look at Pakistan - if a Pakistani says ``fire burns`` - must the Indian stick his hand in fire to be able to say the Pakistani is a liar?? What the heck is wrong with you?

Won every war? Sure. Great. And? so? Are you not proving my assertion that Hindu Indians are congenitally hostile towards Muslims? If Pakistan has been an annoying neighbor? What is the REASON for India to have been and continue to be a hostile neighbor? What`s that mean to the Muslims been burned in Gujrat or Kashmir? Are you making war on Indian citizens as well?? Why are you constantly only reacting? Where is the head of this dog and where is the tail?

Jannat or Janhanum - these are immaterial and obfuscation on for part - Put a stop to the killings - live up to what you say is best in you. But of course since a Pakistani says this to you, means you have to do the opposite? Demonstrate my assertions are untrue, and you can continue to hate me.

We were not sure where the Pashnupatah Mandir was, and we could not read the signs, so we went into a large brick building that looked run down but interesting. It turned out that it had a huge courtyard with a flat hill in the middled. On the hill were tall white buildings that looked like miniture skyscrapers. They were very old -- the white paint was failing and plants grew on the roofs and ledges -- and at the base were dozens of old, very pitiful looking people. I do not know what was wrong with them, but we had a bad feeling. The place was filthy and falling apart. We got out.

We walked down by the river. There were two bridges crossing and smoke coming from unseen fires down by the water. I had an inkling what the smoke was from but was not really prepared: funeral ghats. There were people lined up along the other bridge and a small wall along the edge looking down. We walked over to see what they were looking at. About 30 feet down across the small river were several fires burning atop square stone pedastals. I looked at the fire. There were logs arranged in a square and then I saw: two legs sticking out. The rest of the body was charred and very similar to the burning logs. Wow. It hit me like a hammer. ``Sharon,`` I said, ``you probably do not want to look.`` She looked. We walked away, very quiet. This was not culture shock, this was culture trauma.

We walked up stone steps that were lined with small, pointed stone buildings (Shiva shrines). There were monkeys everywhere. We meandered a bit and then walked up the hill. There were all kinds of old buildings, holy sites, etc. It was like a bizarre park. We walked through a wooded area with hundreds of monkeys. They looked dirty and mean, not cute.

We walked back to the bridge to cross and find the Pashnupatah Mandir. As we crossed, not really looking at the ghats, a boy stopped us and said, ``did you see the cremation?``

Yes, we started walking.

``Look,`` he said. There was a body in a white shroud with red (blood red) paint splattered on top (this is part of the Hindu priests ceremony). The boy said the man died yesterday in a taxi accident. He said the four ghats on the left were for poor people and the two on the right were for the rich. The four on the left are for each caste (i.e. Brahmins are only cremated on the Brahmin ghat). I looked again. There were men manning the fires with sticks. Below the ghats, in the dirty river, there were people wading and digging their hands in the water. They were looking for fillings, etc. from the remains that are pushed in after the burning. Horrific. I realized as I stood there -- feeling outside of my body -- that we were surrounded by smoke. I was breathing the smoke of burning bodies. It smelled like wood, with a sweet tinge. I wanted to vomit. We walked forwad. We were both quite nauseous and upset. It was so jarring.

We walked up a hill and between tall brick buildings. There were lepers, beggars without a leg or blind, dogs with mange so bad they were about bald, dirty children, a girl squatting in a ditch, cows eating trash and the smells. The smells of dung and urine and rot and decay. It is like an assault on your compassion. It overloads and you feel nothing. Empty. Numb.

We walked to the concrete gate of the Pashnupatah Mandir. There was a guard, Hindus only. The gate was part of a huge wall the surrounded the huge courtyard. He would not even let me stand in the gateway, but I could look through a bit. There was a huge (30-40 foot tall) golden bull with gonads bigger than I stand. There was the pagoda-style temple--it had silver and gold metalwork all along the front and rooftops. There were huge cast iron bells and chains. It looked like a mystic place from a different world. I felt like an alien peering into some sort of cosmic gatehole. But was not peering upon a magic world. I was peering upon something closer to hell.

We walked away. Sharon agreed that she felt sick. Hindu places are so dark. I do not know if it is because the culture is so incongruent. To me it seems vile. Buddist places are also quite different, but they charge me instead of draining me. You could not drag me to India in chains.

Went to the Birla Planetarium one night for the English presentation. 10 minutes before the show and no one at all is there. 5 minutes before showtime 500 Bengalis show up at once. Queuing up, pushing through the door. Typical Indian mob scene. Once the lights go down everyone pulls out their cameras and starts taking flash pictures of basically nothing (the roof of the Planetarium is too far away for their flashes). The head planetarium guy gets on the microphone and says, ``What I would like to know is why you come to this institution and without permission you go on flashing and flashing? Are you going to make me call the police?`` I picture in my mind the Bengali police coming in with their 3` long billy clubs and beating the hell out of the planetarium crowd. In typical fashion for the rest of the show, the authorities cause more trouble than the crowds. They keep turning their flashlights on and washing out the stars overhead. Even planeteriums are a madhouse here.

After all that, we still had four days until we left, so we took a quick side-trip down to Mamallapuram (say that ten times quickly! - Heck, say it ONCE), a very holy ancient Hindu city on the coast. We actually got there during the festival dedicated to the God Shiva, and watched an endless procession of men, women and children shave their heads (for religious enlightenment and donations) and get clensed in the ocean waves. We enjoyed the Indian carnival simultaneously occurring, observing the snake charmers, Indian freak shows and weird souveneirs for sale (like the diseased vermin-covered stuffed squirrels with tails stuck straight up in the air and beady fire red eyes - a steal at only 25 rupees), but it was the absolute filth that began to wear on us. Mosquitos so thick you can barely see across the street, garbage (burning or fermenting) absolutely everywhere, and what our guidebook aptly named ``turd beach`` because all the locals move their bowels down near the water, making a sandy stroll a test in avoiding toxic landmines. But with the promise of The Andaman Islands and the perfect tropical paradise looming ahead, it was all OK...

Beggars

by Fred Glick

They are everywhere in India. More reliable than the electricity, moreconsistent than the heat, more varied than you might think.

Your initial reaction is to feel singled out. As a foreigner. You don`t want to be taken for a chump, so you chase them away. But after a bit, and a bit of observation, you discover that they aren`t just asking you, or tourists, or even just those who look better off. They are asking everyone…one of the few equal opportunities in India. Anyone can be asked for an extra rupee.

I once watched a pair of beggars working their way through a slum. One was blind, the other crippled in the extreme way Indian beggars often are: this one had neither arms, nor legs. They worked their way through the mud lanes, the blind one chanting, as the cripple rolled himself along the ground. The beggars help to remind everyone, even the poorest, that no matter how bad things seem, they could always be worse.

You are confronted with them all the time. On the street as you walk, in the market as you shop, in traffic as you wait for the light to change. So what do you do?

You rationalise. Everyone does, there`s no other way to survive India with your conscience, and sanity, intact.

``Most of them will just spend the money on booze.``

``It`s an organised racket. Some Fagin will just take most of it.``

``The money would be put to much better use if I give it to a charity doing work for these people.``

``There is no possible way I could give something to every beggar who approaches.``

All of these probably contain some truth, but the fact is that you are confronted with four or five beggars every morning on your way to work, four or five different ones on your way home, and some of them really are heart-wrenching.

Some people decide not to give and I`ve never seen anyone who always gave something. The last quote is probably true. There are just too many of them. Like vultures on a corpse, like pigeons gathering `round the bird lady, like yuppies at the latest hot restaurant, when one scores, others

seem to appear out of nowhere. An overly generous foreigner in central Delhi would soon be the centre of a mob, and quite possibly even a riot.

Most people seem to give something occasionally. Some may be motivated out of charity, some out of guilt, some may be simply trying to get rid of the filthy child pulling at their sleeve. How do you decide to whom to give and when?

How do you decide who is worthy of your charity?

One leper is at the same corner every morning, a small tin pail hooked over the wrist of his finger-less hand. Another girl is at another corner in the afternoon. She has a small, very dirty baby with her and is pregnant with another. She looks fifteen, but it could just be her stunted growth. When you do your grocery shopping you have to step over a man whose limbs have been shrivelled by polio.

My personal strategy has been to give to the ones I ``know``. In a series of cinematic coincidences they pop-up regularly, and not just at their regular corners

The leper at the corner. It turns out that he lives in a small slum, inhabited mostly by lepers, across the street from my office. Sometimes I see him in the evenings as I head home. When I do, he usually finds me rickshaw and tells the driver not to try to take advantage of me. I never give him anything when I see him in these circumstances and he never asks. Begging is a job in India, and he seems happy to leave his work at the office. Once, he even introduced me to his wife and showed me their

spotless brick-walled shack. It seemed to me that he was pleased to be showing me that there is more to his life than a begging bowl.

The girl with the baby. Her name is Seema, the baby`s, Sita. I see them at corners all over the city. In a city this size with some 13 million people you wouldn`t think such coincidences would be all that common, but somehow they are and every time we cross paths Seema comes over to chat. Even the baby recognises me now. My Hindi is limited, and Seema`s English non-existent, so we`d have a hard time finding more to say to one another if, say, the light didn`t change. But it always does. When I have some change, I give it to her. When I don`t, it`s no big deal. Somehow our relationship has changed. Sort of like when you become a regular at a local restaurant. You`re still a patron, but everyone`s on a first name basis now and even if you come in for just a cold drink the waiters still

seem happy to see you.

There`s a new group of pavement dwellers living on the median near the market. Pavement dwellers are too poor to afford even a shack in one of Delhi`s 1500 slums. Often they`re newly arrived from `the village` and I cannot even begin to imagine the conditions there if living on a five-foot wide strip of pavement in the middle of a main Delhi thoroughfare is preferable.

I go past them now every morning, and as I sit at the corner in a three-wheeled autorickshaw, waiting for the light to change I`m sometimes, when that corner`s regulars are between shifts, approached by one or another of the new arrivals.

One afternoon a woman approaches me carrying a baby so small, so undernourished that it seems obvious that it will die. I`ve seen other children like this and usually they come with women from ``the village``. How they`ve survived this long mystifies the doctors I work with. A two year old child that weighs five pounds, less than most of us weighed at birth. art.com

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I give the mother some money, but with misgivings. Will it go to buying food? And if it does buy food, will it go towards the nutritious food the child, and mother, need?

So with the best of intentions, when I do my shopping that evening I buy an extra bag of beans, just the kind of protein the child needs, and that is probably out of their price range.

I put this bag of beans in my satchel, but I don`t see the mother and her baby there the next day. Nor the next, nor the next. Still, I take these beans with me every day to work until, after a week, it becomes obvious that she was an aberration, working that one corner, that one day only.

But I`m still carrying a bag of beans with me. It doesn`t seem right that I should take them home and eat them myself. They are charity, and keeping them would be like reaching back into a beggar`s bowl to retrieve the five that you thought was a one.

So I carry this bag of beans with me, everyday to work and everywhere I go, trying to find someone who seems to really need them.

How do you determine who is worthy of your charity?

hobbyty,

Oh get off your arrogant holier-than-thou horse OK?! Just who the Hell are you or your damn country to morally judge us hindus? This is the same people & country who have killed millions of their muslim Bengali bretheren. Butchers is the right word for people like you. No wonder the rest of the world, including & especially the Islamic world, doesnt give 2 hoots to what you feel..hah!

Youre only partially right. We dont necessarily hate Islam or muslims in general. But we sure hate Goddamned muslim pigs like you. Thankyou Allah for making them create Pakistan. Otherwise creatures like you, Urstruly, Naqsbandhi would be calling themselves Indian!..ugh... even the thought of that revolts me..

At least I will admit that I hate you. Read your post again..you`ll be too damned hypocritically pious to even admit the hate that is wafting out of your words.

Islam is a perfect religion. But you muslims are far, far from perfect. Especially the ones who thump the Quran on your chest.

As far as Pakistanis like you are concerned, do you think we hindus GIVE A DAMN what you think of us?! We`ve put up with you as annoying neighbors for 50+ years. We can put up with your enimity for another million years if we have to; doesnt mean a damned thing to us. We have proven, without a shadow of a doubt, that when you get too big for your britches, we kick your sanctimonious butts in a war...& we can do that again & again if we have to. Too bad you guys are too stupid to even admit (what the rest of the world knows too well)..you have lost every frikking war you fought with us.

There are many Pakistanis & muslims, both on Chowk & in ``real`` life that I like & I`m honored to call my friends.

But muslims like you..Goddamned right I hate you...& I`m proud of it!

So go to your damned jannat for all we care. Use your brains for a second & THINK for a change...How do you think a hindu will feel if he was mistakenly sent to the same place that YOU will go to after you die?! He`ll be banging on the doors of the jannat & begging God to let him out!!

Imagine...spending an eternity with people like you, Ali1, Urstruly & Naqsbandhi..all ``chosen people``...yikes! Not to mention OBL, Khomeni & other unwashed samples of the Islamic world! All the houris in jannat wont make up for that torture!

Boss...Aapka jannat; hamara narak hai!

re: Humsab # 373

I am aware of the macro-level difference between India and Pakistan in the field of education. However, the Indo-Pak educational data do not reflect, in the main, differences of religion, but those of state ideology. Results would not be different were Pakistan a Hindu majority state following an ideology of ``Hindu difference.`` Pakistan is an imperfect religious state. India is an imperfect secular state. An imperfect/perfect religious state will always lag behind an imperfect/perfect secular state in certain key areas. As evidence, I present to you the case of Bangladesh. BD is a Muslim majority nation, but does not view itself primarily through the filter of religion. To the extent BD and India begin to see themselves as religious states, differences between BD and India on one side and Pakistan on the other will rapidly vanish.

I am sorry I am not very familiar with state-level data. Again, my guess would be that the distinctions have less to do with Hindu/Muslim identities than with structural factors.

To summarize, I do not believe the religious identity of Hindu/Muslim has anything at all to do with educational achievement. What matters critically is the COLLECTIVE IDEOLOGY.

Regards

Prem # 370

It is good to have a balanced approach while analysing issues but going overboard doing that can give wrong analysis as well as wrong conclusion. I suggest you check out latest data on Literacy rate in both countries at macro level and then compare disaaggregated data in respect of various States (excluding Bihar). You may find quite a few surprises.

Regards

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Fawad97

If you were unaware before, now you know the hypocracy and hostility of the Indians. Generally speaking, The majority of Hindu indians are intellectually and morally neutered by the curse of caste and as they become more aware of it - they become angrier. Their only recourse has been to turn to the left; imagining that the self hatred can be washed away in a ``clean canvas.`` Other Hindus have embraced a ``Muscular`` Hinduism. who can fail to understanding the self loathing in that ``muscular`` arrival.

So you will hear the endless ``we are the same``, ``there is no difference between us``, ``you like our movies, so it must follow that we are the same`` - that`s their depth, but their true identity and ``nature`` is revealed in the Gujrat. Recall they consider the Kashmiri, ``their own people`` as well and look what they have done to them - imagine what they want to do to us - but, Thanks to God and vigilance - they will remain in their cage.

The Indian Muslims who write on these boards of are basically busy earning the goodwill of the ``majority`` - Farzana is the exception, others talk of fighting a fight one can win, still others argue that ``secularism`` will have a positive effect, yet no one is actually willing to do anything about it. This is the extent of their understanding of ``Democracy`` and ``secularism`` - a mask for self hatred in their conception - how can these exist without the centrality of equality. As Muslims, citizens, continue to be burned, and hacked to death, they are powerless to act, but their ``mighty`` army relieves itself in the vast of Their deserts and upon the Kashmiri. Their police forces collude with religious bigots who seek to return to a tribalism in which they find confort, as if innocence once lost can be regained. Their ``enshrined`` constitution remains listless and yet another example of idolatory that plagues them.

As for Mr. Mohsin - let him to reconcile with his choice. His observations are his experience - what is your observation of Indians on Chowk - are they not a range, but they all have one thing in common - they despise the Muslim, they won`t come out and say it, but they have got themselves and certain ``educated`` Muslims to agree on the ``truth`` - even so many Indian Muslim despises the Muslim - a nation of hate is what their ideal is, if Muslims of India can make themselves free, then the ``majority`` will feed on themselves. We would do well to insist they deal with their self hate, that they promote peace, friendship and freedom inside their country among those who are or want to be it`s citizens, that they not hold Muslims in captivity, as they do in Captive Kashmir - that doing this will allow us to not regard them with justified suspicion.

re: alpha # 368, fawad79 # 369

Huh...the difference between the educational achievements of Hindus and Muslims is at best marginal, its evidence largely anecdotal. One lame person claims to crawl a bit faster than another person sharing a similar handicap. Meanwhile, the world whizzes past them both in space-age engines.

So much of India remains illiterate, as does so much of Pakistan. There is infinitely more to do than what we have been able to achieve.