Visit to Krishna-Janam-Bhoomi

Tri State Area Chowkies

A Concert to Benefit the victims of Gujrat

The Asian Pacific Forum and Samar Magazine are some of the sponsors of this performance to raise donations to help the communities ravaged in the violence in Gujrat.

Performing: Neela Bhagwat, an artist and activist who had released a CD of her sung interpretations of Kabir.

April 7th, Sunday at 5p.m.

Riverside Church, 120th and Riverside

Donations: Suggested donation is $20.00, but any amount will be appreciated.

Hope to see you there! If anyone needs contact into, please let me know.

Re: PMishra2

``..Do you feel nothing should be done today because current laws were not applicable when the injustice took place?...``

There is an important difference -- one cannot simply apply the algorithm blindly. There is a general consensus that universal education uplifts society. There is no such consensus on the `benefits` to society from replacing one religious structure with another.

harimau-45

``How about visiting Qutb Minar and looking at those pillars used in the construction o the mosque? There are no arches only column and beam construction with the columns still having figures of celestial maidens even though some of the facial features have been chipped off by those who found the figures to be offensive. You will then be telling me that these are the figures of houris and ghilmans... show me one mosque with any representation of a human figure.``

You are absolutely right.The name of this mosque is ``Quwwat-ul-Islam Mosque``.For your information

another mosque known as ``ARhai din ka JhopRa`` in

Ajmer was also built with the materials of a destroyed temple.Most of its columns are decorated

with the Hindu pantheon.For further details read

Arthur Cresswell`s Islamic art and Architecture.

Regards.

t-bhai #43,

i hear ya and i agree...that`s what pisses me off. people are too busy worrying about temples and masjids and other inanimate things instead of respecting human life and livelihood.

What is Hinduism

Hinduism is a Universal Religion

It is a synthesis of approaches. Even the name ``Hinduism``came late. The original name is Sanaat’ana Dharma, Eternal Truth. We can pick up and understand ``that Truth`` in any way we like. In this great religion we leave real freedom of choice in worship, in approaching that One Supreme Entity, that we call God.

In Hindu thought, there is room for everything, not only the nice, refined philosophies. Even the simple, ordinary crude forms of worship are accepted, because that`s where some people begin. They believe in that, like a baby playing with a wooden horse, taking it to the water, putting grass into its mouth and saying, ``Come on, horsey, come and eat.`` You don’`t laugh at the child, because that’s the way a child begins.

Hinduism never rejects or denies anything or anybody. It is a big ocean.It could be called Sindhuism .``Sindhu`` in some of the Indian languages means ``ocean.`` It never says, ``Only Ganga andGodavari may enter; Missouri and Mississippi must stay out.`` No ,they all flow in. Even the city gutter water goes in. It’s as if the big ocean mamma says, ``Come, my child, I know you went around and got dirty. Come in, and I will clean you up.`` Even atheism is accepted. The Hindus know that the moment you say, ``I don`’t believe in God,``you seem to accept a God. If there is not God, why do you want not to believe? You say, that there is a God, but you don’t believe in it. A true Hindu will have no problem in accepting all other faiths. He will never say,``Oh, I am only a Hindu. I am not a Catholic. I’`m not a Buddhist. I’`m not a Muslim.`` They are all based on devotion, the Bhakti Yoga. The ocean never denies any water; it’s all embracing. That is why sometimes I like to call myself ``Undo,`` because I would like to undo ``all limitations``.

All of our problems today are based on the attitude that, ``My way, my approach is the right one. And if you don’`t follow this, you’ll be condemned.``There is no one way, because each mind is different. Each person conceives of God according to his capacity, taste and temperament. You have your way. You have the freedom and the right to follow it; but your following ``your way`` should not cause problems to others. Just as you have your freedom, others must also have the freedom to find peace and joy,- in their own way.

It`s very, painful to see people hurting each other, even killing oneanother, in the name of God and religion. Even in the name of Hinduism, you find religious quarrels. People who see God as S’iva didn’t want to see God as Vishnu. S’aivites and Vaishnavites quarrel. It is our lack of understanding [of our own religion]; we don’`t see the underlying spirituality behind all the diversities in the creation.

Religion has a very important role to play in the world. Unfortunately, it forgets that role, and the different religions fight with one another. We have enough money, enough land, enough food to feed, clothe and house everyone. Poverty and hunger are not due to lack of resources. The reason is that we are not caring and sharing. We have to open and change the hearts of the people. That can be done onlythrough religious understanding;- to help them see that we are all children of that One Absolute God, one global, divine family. There is only one God who is our Lord, who is the life in us. Like rain in the river going back to the ocean, every drop of water that wants to go back to its source is a religious seeker.

God above is like completely distilled water. When it falls down on one side of the river, it is called Heavenly Father. On the other side, they call it Allah. If it falls in the Himalayas, they call it Siva. We may call this One God: Brahma, Father, Mother, Adonai, Cosmic Consciousness, Divine Essence, etc. But we mean the same thing. God is pleased with any name we give Him. He doesn’t care what we call Him, but rather how we feel about Him.

In the Ve’d’aant’ic part of the Hindu scriptures, it says that God has no name or form. So we find it hard to communicate. Due to our limitations, we can never comprehend something without a form. For example, if I say``sweetness``, how would you understand sweetness? Immediately, you have to think of sugar or money or candy. Without a form, you cannotunderstand sweetness. That is the reason why we try to understand God throughforms and names. Otherwise God is formless. The Saiva Saint Manikkavasagar said, ``You don`t have a name; You don`t have a form, but we approachYou with thousands of names and thousands of forms. You accept all our approaches.``

The beauty and greatness of Hinduism is that it allows real freedom of choice in worship. There is room for the Ve’d’aant’in who approaches God within as his own Self without any form. If you wish to approach God through a form, there is S’iva, or Vishnu, or Kumaara; or as a Goddess Durga, Lakshmi, Saraswati and others. If you don`’t believe in a human form of God, you can worship a tree, a snake ora stone. You can see God in any form you want, because God made everything in his own image; everything is His expression. [-as declared by the MahaaVaakyaasin the Ve’d’aas.]

It is my heartfelt player that we all make this resolution: ``From this day onward, my life will be all-embracing and harmonious. Let me learn to accept all the various approaches of people, because everyone is looking for the same happiness and joy in life. Let me not condemn anybody because he or she looks, thinks or, acts a little different. Let me reailize the spiritual unity behind all the diversities in the creation and remember always that we are members of one divine family. This, in my own small, humble way, may contribute to the peace, joy, and harmony of the world.``

pmishra2 #46
``slavery or the lack of education of dalit indians (due to the implementation of the caste system)?All of these events took place a long time ago``

This example is not exactly applicable here, because 1. the cumulative effect of discrimination in the past is the existence of socially and economically disadvantaged groups which suffer these disadvantages even in the present day and 2. society is not quite free of caste discrimination yet.

I had never even heard of RamJanambhoomi growing up as a kid (in the 70s and 80s) but I had heard of Mecca-Medina. For me personally, this temple has no resonance - I did not grow up equating it with Kaaba. I couldnt give a damn if the temple was built or blown-up. If it is important for others, I dont grudge them their priorities. All I know is that never in a million years will I set foot in that temple, if it ever gets built. In fact, to anybody who will listen, I would say, dont touch that temple with a mile long barge pole. Its filthy.

dost-mittar #42

Well spoken. Now here is a different question -- what is your thinking about slavery or the lack of education of dalit indians (due to the implementation of the caste system)? All of these events took place a long time ago, well before current legal and political infra-structure was in place. What is your position in this space? Do you feel nothing should be done today because current laws were not applicable when the injustice took place?

I think an honest appraisal of the past is always difficult. Without honesty no real progress is possible. Further, acknowledging injustice in the past does not mean that ``revenge`` is justified today.

The systematic destruction of hindu and buddhist artifacts throughout North India is a basic fact of history. Not a single temple of any history survives in Afghanistan, Pakistan or Northern India. All of these areas have had a major hindu-buddhist civilization for 4000 years. This needs to be acknowledged. The aggressive positioning of mosques and other structures in locations deeply sacred to Hindus also requires acknowledgement.

How to respond to this destruction is another matter. But without honesty about the problem we will never get anywhere. The RSS and VHP will win with their hateful agendas and horrible attitudes towards minorities.

Ref AAmir #: 19

[harimau

How SURE are you that what your Hypothesis is NOT base on South Indian having more temples than North India.??

Why is it Not possible that North Indian Hindus were different than South indians as borne by architecture of temples in South is very intricate almost piece of artistic carvings .I have never seen ,even among the Birla mandirs ,Kali of Kalighat Calcutta ,Bhubaneshwar,Puri Pashupathi nath ,Benares, anything resembling temples in & around Chennai?]

So why don`t you read history written by Muslim historians and see what they had to say about their sultans? How about visiting Qutb Minar and looking at those pillars used in the construction o the mosque? There are no arches only column and beam construction with the columns still having figures of celestial maidens even though some of the facial features have been chipped off by those who found the figures to be offensive. You will then be telling me that these are the figures of houris and ghilmans... show me one mosque with any representation of a human figure.

Don`t attempt to deny history. I have never said that some current generation of Muslims should pay for the misdeeds of some invader a thousand years back. But I will not let historical inaccuracies be presented as the truth.

Ref ylh #: 16

[Thankyou sir for that information. I didn`t know that. I will never again mention Nehru as one of my favorite world leaders since according to you he was a closet Hindu Bigot.]

Yasser, chill, will ya.

A leader must understand the feelings of his people if he is to lead them. Thus Nehru could understand the feelings of the people of Saurashtra about the destruction of the Somnath temple and their desire to rebuild it. Why the hell are all of you so hellbent on liberating Jerusalem from Israel? That is okay for Muslims to do but no other people, be it Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, should have any fondness for historical sites?

[I never understand this need to heal the `wounds` inflicted by people 1000 years ago in a different time to different people in context of a different environment. Only fools `heal` such wounds! Next perhaps the Muslim World should attack Mongolia to avenge the destruction of Baghdad by Halaqu in the 13th century, and while we are at it, lets go kill a couple of Englishmen for King Richard`s attrocities in the Holy Land during the Crusades...]

No, no, no. Just get the Sunnis from killing the Shias in Pakistan before you tell the rest of the world how to behave.

Do you realize how tiresome you have begun to sound?

roohi #41: and scout

........shhhhhhhhhhh......zara kaan nazdeek la`iyay.....aur hum jo likhaiNgay oosay apnay paas hee rakhna...theek hay?;)

...aray behnaa!...as`l baat tou yeh hay kay pehlay hum aadmi/aaurat say guzar kar `insaan` banaiN...achchay insaan banaiN...kisi ka dil na duka`aiN...jub hum insaan bun ja`aiNgay tou phir kisi khuda/bhagwaan ki zaroorat ya kami mehsoos na hogi...

lve,

t

scout

``what about the other Gods? aren`t they special to people too? not all Hindus worship just those three.``

Scout, this is my understanding - Practicing Hindus believe in the Trimurti or the Trinity of Bhrama - Vishnu - Shiva. The creator the preserver and the destroyer. Three aspects of the same universal Brahman (or Bhagwan, Paramatma, Ishwar etc.)

Most Hindus are Vaishnav - for them Vishnu the Preserver is the supreme aspect of God. Vishnu is the only one that incarnates on earth to protect the universal order or Dharma.

Of Vishnus 9 incarnations the ones where he is a man and his life story is well known enough to warrant a Janam Bhoomi are Ram Avtar (Ayodhya) and Krishna Avtar (Mathura)and Buddha(Lumbani - in Nepal - no controversy there).

What other gods are you talking about ? My list in order of importance ....

Ram (7 th Avtar of Vishnu)

Krishna (8th Avtar of Vishnu)

Shiva (the destroyer) there are many Shivaite sects though nowhere nowhere close to the Vaishnavs - but Shiva is not born, he just is

Bhrama (the creator) is not ususally worshipped

Their wives:

Laxmi (Vishnu`s wife)

Durga (Shiva`s wife)

Saraswati (Bhrama`s wife)

Any other deities are secondary ... please correct me if I`m wrong people ... I`m not an expert ... just trying to summarize the Pantheon for the (even more) uninformed

Aamir #19:

``I have never seen ,even among the Birla mandirs ,Kali of Kalighat Calcutta ,Bhubaneshwar,Puri Pashupathi nath ,Benares, anything resembling temples in & around Chennai?``

Aamir, temples in Chennai and rest of South India follow the Dravidan style of architecture and hence are different from those in the North. The RULES for temple building are different.

``Why is the charges of demolition only ...in Cow belt area which have banned beef,urdu ,are Sangh Parivar controlled ANti Muslim ,visibly & Virulent...``

Becase North India was the region most targeted by Muslim invaders. Hindus there have more bitter memories of suffering at the hands of Muslim rulers, forced conversions etc.

The South was lucky to escape much of the devastation and hence there are lots of historic temples in the South. And also, less friction between the two religions. Muslim rulers here were relatively benign. Tipu Sultan is a hero in Karnataka (though a villian to my Keralite friends).

scout #20:

Layman - ``Also, hardly any Muslims in Spain at the moment to rue over the lost mosques, while there are lots of Hindus in India, and tasting political power after a loooong time, so there...``

Scout - ``dude, the only country hurting in all this temple vs. mosque bull$hit is India. i don`t see what kind of political gain unrest is.``

I think you misunderstood. What I said was that in India, Hindu (nationalists) are now in a position of power and hence able to do something about past ills (whether the course they are taking is right is another matter), whereas in Spain, I dont think there are enough number of Muslims to be able to do something about the mosques converted to churches.

``judging by the number of God`s incarnations Hinduism has (correct me if i`m wrong), there can`t possibly just a couple of places that are sacred then? where do you draw the line?

better yet, why stop at birth place?``

I think others have made the point that only the three holiest of the holy sites are being asked for. This is the VHP view. It does not represent all Hindus. Some Hindus may not care to reclaim even these. Others may want more. One way to look at it is the relative importance of the mosques in these sites. Are these mosques of special significance (like the Hazrat Bal or Mecca)? Or are they just like ANY OTHER mosque in India?

Similarly of the 3000+ temples destroyed by Muslims, which were of special significance and which were like ANY OTHER temple in India?

If both parties agree that only these three sites are MOST IMPORTANT to Hindus and that the mosques on these sites are not of special significance to Muslims, then what (except ego) prevents a compromise where these sites are returned to Hindus and the same mosques (with govt or Hindu funding) built elsewhere to continue to meet the religious needs of the Muslims using them now?

``in any event, isn`t it better to avoid violence and the deaths of innocents due to some holy piece of land? i`m sure the God who was born there must be looking down and shaking his head. Conflicts regarding religion are not really conflicts of Gods but conflicts of the egos of people.``

Absolutely I agree that the solution should not come through violence. Which is why a compromise that satisfies both parties and aviods violence must be sought. I am not sure whether the courts can decide on a matter of faith, especially in a country like India where rule of law and respect for it is not as entrenched as say the US or Germany.

re: scout

I am trying to point out that while the end result (truth) we both seek in this case is the same, the arguments (alternate truths) you make seem to obfuscate the main point here.

To your questions: ``all i`m saying is that, when something does more harm than good, is it worth making a fuss over?``
NO

``is building a temple in place of the destroyed mosque worth the aggravation and murders of innocents, Hindus and Muslims? just answer that.``
NO.

THe reason the answers to the above are NO, are different than the ones you are trying to make. Lets try this a different way .... it does not lie in How many Gods (personal diety/manifestations) are worshipped or making a fuss over ONE:MANY. Or why a place is ``sacred`` holy at all ? These silly arguments may have brought about a truce amongst warring tribes at various places in various times but have no bearing to the current Mandir/Masjid disputes in India (or any such debate about ANY holy place). Places are sacred because people have ``faith``....all very irrational. So get this chip off your shoulder.... start by understanding familiar stuff like ``Why do Muslims perform Hajj and what is special about the Kabba ?`` Or what is so special about Mosques built after destroying other places of worship (not to mention the millions of kafirs killed to do so)

The KluKluxKlan of India (the VHP/RSS) needs to be stopped for different reasons. (secularism and the fact that 2 wrongs don`t make a right, etc., etc. and the fact that they have a fascist world-view)


BTW does your secular advice apply to all the ``disputed Muslim Holy lands`` ? (Jerusalem and every other place they are doing ``jihad`` to ``liberate`` it) OR to Muslims at all. Should Palestinians abide by the following ``in any event, isn`t it better to avoid violence and the deaths of innocents due to some holy piece of land?`` ---- and does it apply to all the Muslims doing Jihad (as seen on TV) globally for the last 6 months. (I am not saying that all Muslims are terrorists but just that a lot of Muslims are doing terrorism and calling it Jihad)

everyone:
Please no lectures on what Jihad actually means. I am talking about Jihad - AS SEEN ON TV. Just like the Jihad VHP Hindus were doing in Gujrat.

RanaRansher #25,

i don`t know what you`re trying to say by pointing out holy places. i don`t give a damn about them and the hair of Prophet Mohammed is insignificant to most educated people. that is not the issue here anyway.

all i`m saying is that, when something does more harm than good, is it worth making a fuss over?

is building a temple in place of the destroyed mosque worth the aggravation and murders of innocents, Hindus and Muslims? just answer that.