Visit to Krishna-Janam-Bhoomi

Ralph #24, `` Every religion has a few very holy places. kashi, ayodhiya, mathura are very holy to hindus. They worship ram, krishna, shiva most importantly.``

what about the other Gods? aren`t they special to people too? not all Hindus worship just those three.

``Minorities in any country should respect the basic rights of the majority community. Intransigence of one minority creates anger and ill will against all minorities.``

basic rights? destroying and killing over some holy piece of land is a basic right? what happened to the secular, democratic India?

Reply #: 20

scout

``

...better yet, why stop at birth place?

``

-- Because Scout, we are compromising. The VHP has only asked for 3 places even though the number of temples that were destroyed, desecrated, converted into mosques run in the thousands.

We don`t want to dig up every unfair harm that happened to us during the time of the not so tolerant mughal regime.

However these 3 places are as sacred to us as the Mosques at Mecca and Medina and the Dome of the Rock is to Muslims.

So please don`t make the argument look ridiculous by putting in stts, such as ``when does it stop ?``

AD

Reply #: 23

pmishra2

Well said.

As I read in indiat-today, secularism is a 2 way street. Its about time muslims start practising what they expect from the majority community which is tolerance.

A good start would be for one of the gulf states to adopt a secular constitution. Let muslims first practise secularisim while they are in a majority before expecting the same when they are in the minority.

AD

Reply #: 1

ali1

``

Dont worry Mona, the demolition of the mosque in Mathura is also the national will of Indian people very much like the demolition of Babri Mosque. How can the birthplace of krishna be less important than the birthplace of rama? If some mosques are defiling their birthplaces then these must go. If Indian muslims have a problem with the demolition then they must go too! 5000 thousand muslims killed for ayodhya, another 5000 for mathura, hey!! whats the big deal?

``

-- Ali1, you have always been one to shoot first and ask questions later.

I ask you and all other muslims to answer one question: Say Israel goes crazy and demolishes the DOme of the Rock Mosque and replaces it with a synagogue. Over the years, Palastinie gets possession of Jerusalem. Would any of you support the synagogue over the mosque ?

And Ali1, the demand is only at 3 very sacred places for hindus. These palces find mention in texts that are over a 1000 years old. So please don`t try to misrepresent them by saying every majsid in India is contoversial and needs to go.

AD

RanaRansher

``

People should respect and learn from history and not seek to ``correct`` it by ``undoing`` things. And taking sides on a purely religious issue like this is, well, in the least unsecular. How far back is back afterall ?

``

--One of the strongest arguments I made against the temple construction was

that when Babar broke the temple, India was NOT a secular country but when

some Hindus broke the Majsid then India WAS a secular country. So what the

latter did was illegal and hence they were wrong.

However in the past couple of years the concept of ``Reconciliation`` has been

in vogue. E.g.:

1)Truth and Reconciliation Commission in S. Africa for crimes against blacks

during apartheid.

2)Families of Nazi Victims getting money back from Swiss banks despite

inadequate proof of ownership

3)Japan apologizing to S. Korea for using their women as comfort women in

the Korean war.

4)Debate in the U.S. about compensating blacks for slavery.

5) General Pinochet of Argentina facing Crimes Against Humanity for his

brutal repression of political dissidents in Argentina.

6) Pope close to apologizing for the Spanish Inquisition

(http://www.geocities.com/iberianinquisition/)

All the above have ONE thing in common. One group of people was victimized

by another group on the basis of their skin color, ethnicity, nationality,

religion or political beliefs. In fact #6 is similar to what happened in

India, simply replace Islam with Catholics and Hindus with Jews.

If you are opposed to the above, then I can understand your stance on the

temple issue.

Otherwise, I think true healing only takes place once the symbols of oppression are removed, be it the Confederate flag in the US or the Babri majsids and its` like in India.

AD

Reply # 3 scout

[``are you Pakistani?``]

I am of Pakistani origin.

[``if you are, did you ever get this passionate about the sectarian violence that occurs in Pakistan every day?``]

I am passionate about a number of things and you have no need to know about `em all. But this one you should know: I have absolutely no passion for aging desi spinsters who repeatedly enroll in community colleges to get the ``student`` label.

Don`t worry too much about sectarianism or communalism please. Why don`t you go and play your makhi/machhar or pumpkin/munchkin game with rsaxena?

Reply # 3 scout

[``are you Pakistani?``]

I am of Pakistani origin.

[``if you are, did you ever get this passionate about the sectarian violence that occurs in Pakistan every day?``]

I am passionate about a number of things and you have no need to know about `em all. But this one you should know: I have absolutely no passion for aging desi spinsters who repeatedly enroll in community colleges to get the ``student`` label.

Don`t worry too much about sectarianism or communalism please. Why don`t you go and play your makhi/machhar or pumpkin/munchkin game with rsaxena?

Shankar #27

I do not think people are suggesting that existing mosques and structures (e.g., Qutub Minar) be destroyed. But there should be an open acknowledgement of the problem. Unfortunately, there has been a tendency to pretend this problem does not exist and can be ignored. Even more distressing is the open lying and suggestions that somehow the construction of mosques right next to Hindu sites is respectful or appropriate.

This type of evasion has helped the RSS and the VHP a lot. They have been able to divert all positive thinking on this issue to hatred and revenge taking.

BTW, you are right about the state guaranteeing minority rights. Without that democracy and secularism mean nothing. Notice however that in the USA there is a single civil code that governs all citizens. This is also a reasonable goal for India.

You may be interested to know that this was challenged in the USA by the Mormons in the 1840s. A large federal army arrived soon after in Salt Lake City, and to this day, Fort Douglas looms over the city, its (old) cannon pointing straight down towards the mormon cathedral downtown.

Ralph,

Why cant temples be built next to mosques; instead of destroying the mosques? Just as minorities should respect majorities--the hallmark of democracy is that VICE VERSA should be guarded and respected as well. Otherwise words like ``secularism``, ``religious freedom``, ``democracy`` are meaningless.

There is much emphasis in the US system of democracy to prevent ``the tyranny of majority``. It is an elaborate system of ``checks & balances``. Thats why the Civil Liberties mvt fought for the rights of those annoying Hare Krishna guys to distribute pamphlets at US airports, or the right of the Jehovah`s Witness to knock on your door to distribute pamphlets--even if it is a bother.

S.Arabia has NEVER claimed its a democracy or is a secular country. So building a temple or synagauge next to the Kabaa is a moot issue.

If India constantly (and many times annoyingly) shouts at world forums about being the ``World`s largest democracy``--then it has automatically taken the responsibility of being judged by the prevailing standards of democracy.

Dukhi Ram

I am not fake, I am just petty. I dont want to con people, nor do I want to brainwash them, with charas, bhang or my miracles for crying out loud. If that was what I wanted, I would have done it long time ago. All I want is an isolated island of my own, where I am god over my nymphs. Where I love to listen to Serendipity. Where I am the Narcissus and I break my Echo`s heart every day, whenever she tries to speak to me. I am petty. Not fake.

re: scout
``better yet, why stop at birth place? ``

I am sure you know, people don`t ``stop`` at the birth place.

IN Afghanistan one of the most famous mosques is where supposedly Prophet Mohammad`s cloak sits. Mullah Omar takes the cloak out and shows it to the ``faithful`` and they do sajda to him (err fall at this feet) and kiss the cloak. That then seals his being Amir-ul-Momineen. How his cloak got there is irrelevant.

Kashmir has the famous ``Hazrat-bal`` mosque where supposedly a hair of Prophet Mohammad lies. The greatest new angle is the likelihood that Jesus CHrist was amongst the buried holimen in some of these present day mosques and they want to exhume the bodies. They already have gone ahead with this in parts of Pakistan. Aage aage hota hai - dekho. (Oh GOd !!by sharing that here have I just karmically sown a future riot somewhere ??)

Why ? .... in the US of A (and the rest of the world) , Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christian, Jews, Mormons, Moonies, etc, etc. all have their places of worship where absolutely nothing is sacred about them. They just bought the land.

And maybe you could explain what is so sacred about the Kabba. What is so special about that ? Or perhaps why Osama ``theGreatMussalman`` BinLaden is upset about the Americans ``desecrating`` ``the`` holy land ?

WHat are you trying to say scout ?
When humans ``organize`` themselves around religion this is what you get and this is one of the displays of ``faith``. Organized religion is indeed the biggest crime towards humanity.

Long live Kafirism !! join now - still a thriving ``sect`` not an ailing ``church``.

scout #20. Every religion has a few very holy places. kashi, ayodhiya, mathura are very holy to hindus. They worship ram, krishna, shiva most importantly. Minorities in any country should respect the basic rights of the majority community. Intransigence of one minority creates anger and ill will against all minorities.

rana #20. Well said. Let us see some secular muslims advocate construction of a temple next to kaba in medina. No one should destroy Kaba. Only build a temple next to it. That is not too much to ask to show the spirit of accommodation.

AAmir #19

There are differences between temple styles in South India and North India. So What??

The issue is the systematic destruction of

hindu, buddhist and jain temples in North

India. Just visit the Qutub Minar in Dehli. There is ample documentation and physical debris to prove its relationship to hindu and buddhist temples.

I have personally visited temples in the Jammu region where the faces

of all the idols have been systematically smashed. There is plenty of historical evidence to explain why this happened and who was responsible.

Don`t waste our time with your silly equivocations. Next, you will be explaining all the mosques perched right on top of traditional hindu pilgrimage sites as an amazing coincidence or even worse, a ``sign of respect``.

Within Islam destruction of explicit divine representation is supported. This is deeply hurtful to Hindus and Buddhists. Until muslims modernize and put some distance between this tradition and themselves, this issue will not go away.

The north of India, including what is now Pakistan have suffered specially from this type of systematic destruction. Almost no ancient temples survive in this region accept as ruins.

In the south and east India Islam has quite a different history and correspondingly relationship between hindus and muslims are also quite different.

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very interesting arguments.....
especially the very ``secular`` balanced views expressed by the Muslims on this board.
I agree with you 100%. No 2 wrongs make a right. People should respect and learn from history and not seek to ``correct`` it by ``undoing`` things. And taking sides on a purely religious issue like this is, well, in the least unsecular. How far back is back afterall ?

I hope some of you could go and solve the Arab-Israeli dispute. Maybe you could figure out Jerusalem for them. I hope your secular arguments even apply to Islam and Islamists.

Layman #8, ``I am not sure of the religious significance the mosques in Spain had... but the birth place of God`s incarnations (avatars) do have a special significance, dont you agree?``

judging by the number of God`s incarnations Hinduism has (correct me if i`m wrong), there can`t possibly just a couple of places that are sacred then? where do you draw the line?

better yet, why stop at birth place?

in any event, isn`t it better to avoid violence and the deaths of innocents due to some holy piece of land? i`m sure the God who was born there must be looking down and shaking his head. Conflicts regarding religion are not really conflicts of Gods but conflicts of the egos of people.

``Also, hardly any Muslims in Spain at the moment to rue over the lost mosques, while there are lots of Hindus in India, and tasting political power after a loooong time, so there...``

dude, the only country hurting in all this temple vs. mosque bull$hit is India. i don`t see what kind of political gain unrest is.