Visit to Krishna-Janam-Bhoomi

Zafar #89

Agreed. My earlier posts are from a completely different discussion. My point to Soysauce is also in that context.

I agree that there is not the slightest relationship between Saudi Arabia and the brutal killings in Gujarat. The latter have completely to do with prejudice and hatred towards muslims that has been generated by RSS/VHP and tolerated by too many Indians.

Reply Pmishra2

The Saudi funding of Wahabbi schools is an issue, but it is very self indulgent to blame it for the majority of communal feeling among Muslims and Hindus in India today. That lets our home grown hate-mongers off the hook – and excuses our own traditions and prejudices (among all segments of society) from any kind of critical assessment. We have to accept responsibility for our own shortcomings – blaming foreigners (The “Foreign Hand” by another name) might be comfortable, but it is not good enough.

soysauce #81

You have asked an excellent question: what separates twenty years from today? Why should many hindus view things differently today than they did 20 years ago?

Hint: It has something to do with oil. It has to do with one of the worlds most-backward societies possessing an enormous amount of money. It has to do with fantastically rich people investing their money in virulent fanaticism. It has to do with 1000`s of indians working in the gulf states having to suppress their religion.

I will ask you this question again: how many moderate indian muslims have received any support from places like Saudi Arabia? And now, let me ask you a different question: how many extremists, fanatics and bigots receive finance from Saudi Arabia? And what is the single connecting factor for all of these people?

DO you really believe this has no impact on Indian culture and middle-class indian world view? The real challenge is how to respond to this changing world WITHOUT violence against our own minorities. But to pretend the world is unchanging....!

Ref meen-kari-kuzhambu #: 82

[#81 pmishra

I thought we were talking about indian muslims. Wherefore wahabism & such? I related an incident regarding the wholesale murder of jains by a hindu king on another board. Who should apologize for that and to whom?]

No apologies would be needed in that instance. However, we must have a quota system by which the upper castes of India must be punished for THEIR historic crime which merely consisted of refusing to have social interaction with people of other castes. After all, any psychiatrist (that great quack Headshrinker comes to mind here) would tell you that a killing is instantaneous and is not so bad as a perceived insult which causes long-term damage to the psyche.

Your arguments are proof that the quota candidates from India ARE inferior to the upper caste folks.

Ref Ralph #: 78

[soysauce 77

Pagans are not clamoring for adoption of pagan calendars and rebuilding of pagan temples in Christian countries for the same reasons that Hindus are not asking for adoption of Hindu calendar and rebuilding of Hindu temples in Pakistan. Comparing pagans in Christian countries and Hindus in India is just dishonest.]

Please don`t expect logical arguments or intellectual integrity from karuvattu-kuzhambu who calls himself soysauce.

re: sadna

taking away tax exempt status isn`t gonna do jackshit to the VHP`s coffers...the wealthy indian doctors, bankers, and tech gurus from america will continue to fund them, for reasons right or wrong...

pmishra2 #81

You would have seen this already, but just FYI for whatever its worth.

Statement : World Hindu Council of America(VHPA) deplores the Supreme Court verdict barring Hindus to worship at Ayodhya

http://www.vhp-america.org/press/vhpa_pr_031302.htm


IRS : Charitable organisations : Exemption Requirements for 501(c)(3)
http://www.irs.gov/exempt/charitable/display/0,,i1%3D3%26i2%3D18%26genericId%3D6874,00.html

re: pmishra2

{{(2) Most countries with a christian background have good rules regarding their minorities, especially their minorities right to religion.}}

right on...their past may have been ugly, but they`ve reformed...

#81 pmishra

I thought we were talking about indian muslims. Wherefore wahabism & such? I related an incident regarding the wholesale murder of jains by a hindu king on another board. Who should apologize for that and to whom?

You seem to be adopting the clinton strategy of coopting your adversary`s agenda. 20 years ago, i bet you, most people would not have cared about ayodhya, would not even have known what was and wasn`t there and would not have known the difference between seculars, pseudoseculars and binoculars. There was no victim complex among most hindus. Therefore you`re wrong to say that this was some historic problem that needs to be addressed.

Re: VHP`s tax-exempt status, you may need to contact the IRS first rather than a state AG..

soysauce #77

I disagree with you in the strongest terms that my message strengthens the RSS-VHP forces. On the contrary, it is the unwillingness of many educated indians to accept the reality of the massive and systematic destruction of the medieval hindu-buddhist culture of North India and Afghanistan that is helping the RSS-VHP.

Acceptance of this historical truth does not mean revenge, it means understanding the reasons for this destruction. And the reasons are clear: economic, technical and educational backwardness, lack of social justice and cohesion.

As far as christians go, I am no great fan of christianity, but I do note the following:

(1) The pope has apologized for anti-semitism and atrocities against native peoples specially in the Americans. Indeed, he called for the catholic church to repent for a 1000 years for what they did.

(2) Most countries with a christian background have good rules regarding their minorities, especially their minorities right to religion.

(3) You are deeply naive and misinformed if you think Wahhabi and orthodox strains of Islam view conversion and destruction of other cultures

as only part of their past. These people view it as very much part of their present.

(4) Given that one of the richest countries in the world, Saudi Arabia, backs this kind of hatred, this is a real threat to all of us. The Saudi State does NOT help its poor neighbors with their real problems (education, infra-structure) instead it funds the most backward looking religous institutions. Where do you think all those madrasas are getting their funding from?

Why do you think the sane voices of Indian muslims trying to stay true to their religion and yet accomodate indian multi-cultural reality get no support from these two-bit sheiks?

(5)

My project on the VHP is moving forward. I have contacted the state attorney general and a lawyer who has worked on related cases. I plan to work with them to make the case to the relevant authorities.

Miracle in Ajmer ... now if only all the Ram Murtis would start weeping ...

Khwaja’s ‘reflection’ at Chishti shrine

TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ FRIDAY, MARCH 29, 2002 12:16:04 AM ]

AJMER: A mysterious ‘‘reflection’’ at the Dargah of Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti on Wednesday night had thousands of devotees in a spiritual frenzy. For the administration, however, it turned out to be a horrifying night as they strived to control the crowd to ensure that no untoward incident took place.

According to sources, around 8 pm a ‘‘reflection’’ was noticed on the main dome over the sanctum sanctorum of Khwaja Saheb. This ‘‘reflection’’ was interpreted as the reflection of the face of Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti, the celebrated Sufi saint of Ajmer.

As the word spread, devotees started gathering in and around the Dargah complex to view the ‘‘miracle’’. Soon there were close to 7,000 people waiting with bated breath.

According to Syed Irfan Usmani, a Khadim at the Dargah, ‘‘It’s a miracle that has happened and I saw quite distinctly a face and half body along with another image of the Kaba.’’ Usmani said it was a miracle from Khwaja Saheb and added that a message had been sent to the country to put an end to all violence and spread peace and harmony.

Other Khadims and devotees also related similar accounts. The stream of pilgrims thronging the Dargah did not seem to end even on Thursday morning.

Tahmed #72

National Human Rights Commission of India is not public watchdog but a satutatory body established by Government of India as per an Act of Parliament.

Its Chairman as well as most of the members are retired Judges and are appointed by Govt. of India.

Its funding is done by Government and not individuals.

As an Institution, it has shown its independence as per terms of reference decided through Parliament Act.

soysauce 77

Pagans are not clamoring for adoption of pagan calendars and rebuilding of pagan temples in Christian countries for the same reasons that Hindus are not asking for adoption of Hindu calendar and rebuilding of Hindu temples in Pakistan. Comparing pagans in Christian countries and Hindus in India is just dishonest.

#75 pmishra2

``I do believe that the Islamic community has not

separated itself from this destruction. This is in

contrast to the Christians, who also have an

extremely bloody history of combining conquest

with religion. Until this separation takes place

within Islam, and minorities are able to flourish in

Islamic states, many people will have concerns

about islam. ``

What do you mean by islamic community separating itself? The christians who destroyed pagan temples and erected churches there, took over the pagan calendar, have not ``separated`` themselves from anything. Nor are the pagans clamoring for that. You are playing directly into the hands of the likes of VHP (btw how goes the effort to deny them the tax-exempt status)who, first amplify historic grievances and then blur the distinction between the present and the past so that these grievances continue to exist..

Children are very perceptive - they are v adept in understanding the truth nomatter how bad/confused it may seem to adults. At the same time draw wrong conclusions, spread wrong ideas if things arent explained clearly.

The reason I say this is because it just reminded me of the past. Pls read the foll, enjoy it and keep all sarcastic/scholastic comments to yourselves. Inanity welcome. My eldest cousin was doing engg and would bring her friends home for group study sessions (with a lot of giggling) much to our grandfathers annoyance re closed doors!! Somehow my youngest cousin - and his friends (all 4-7 yrs then) - would watch the comings&goings with interest and you guessed it. One of their very imaginative/colourful conversations was overheard by our grandfather - needless to say all hell broke loose. All her male friends were banned under threat of dire consequences which involved his swords, revolver and the pet daschund - the usual routine!! Much much todo followed. Later she discovered the culprits. But by then for her atleast the damage had been done : )

Shah #74

I have not made any statements about hindus

being victimized by indian muslims. What I have

said is the following:

``The systematic destruction of hindu and buddhist

artifacts throughout North India is a basic fact of

history. Not a single temple of any history survives

in Afghanistan, Pakistan or Northern India. All of

these areas have had a major hindu-buddhist

civilization for 4000 years. This needs to be

acknowledged. The aggressive positioning of

mosques and other structures in locations deeply

sacred to Hindus also requires

acknowledgement.``

I do believe that the Islamic community has not

separated itself from this destruction. This is in

contrast to the Christians, who also have an

extremely bloody history of combining conquest

with religion. Until this separation takes place

within Islam, and minorities are able to flourish in

Islamic states, many people will have concerns

about islam.

I see this as no different than the caste-system in

Hindu culture. Until Hindu society fully

acknowledges the damage of caste and works to

repair it, there will be questions about its integrity

and functioning as a faith.

roohi #69 I think between public watchdog groups like Human Rights Commissions on the one hand, and a free press and even the internet to broadcast their findings, we have the basis for making up for deficiencies in formal state institutions (police, judiciary) as well as for countering the threat to a peaceful society that is posed by extremists. It is heartening that both India and Pakistan have active public watchdog groups and a free press. They deserve the financial and moral support of all those who seek peace and progress in that part of the world.

Shah #68

I have no idea why you are ranting at me. Your message bears no relationship to mine. I would appreciate the courtesy of your reading my message(s) before you begin some long (and content-free!) diatribe.

roohi #66

No, never heard of the organisation. Since it was my first and only visit to Vrindavan, I can`t really say whether the conditions have improved or not. Though, must say that after all the talk about the town being filty that I have heard before hand, I didn`t find it all that bad. Guess, I was expecting something even worse.

Mona

NHRC indicts Modi, seeks CBI probe

TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ MONDAY, APRIL 01, 2002 8:26:52 PM ]

NEW DELHI: In a vote of no-confidence in Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi, the National Human Rights Commission said on Monday that it trusted neither his government’s explanation on why the violence occurred and has continued for so long, nor its ability to prosecute those guilty of heinous crimes.

The NHRC, in its ‘‘preliminary comments’’ on the Gujarat government’s ‘‘comprehensive’’ action taken report, noted widespread allegations that FIRs have been ‘‘poorly or wrongly’’ recorded and that criminal investigations were being ‘‘influenced’’ by extraneous considerations.

‘‘The commission is of the view that the integrity of the process has to be restored. It, therefore, recommends the entrusting of certain critical cases to the CBI. These include the cases relating to the Godhra incident, which is at present being investigated by the Government Railway Police, the Chamanpura (Gulbarga society) incident, the Naroda-Patiya incident, the Best Bakery case in Vadodara and the Sardarpura case in Mehsana district,’’ the NHRC said.

The commission said special courts should try these cases on a day-to-day basis with the judges being handpicked by the chief justice of the high court. Special prosecutors should be appointed as needed. Policemen, bureaucrats and politicians who facilitated the violence through acts of omission should also be punished, it added.

‘‘Action should be initiated to identify and proceed against those who have failed to act appropriately to control the violence in its incipient stages.’’ Material collected by NGOs such as Citizen’s Initiative, PUCL and others should also be used.

The official explanation of ‘‘intelligence failure’’ leading to the Godhra incident and subsequent attacks on Muslims in the state was seen by the NHRC as an excuse aimed at hiding the fact that the administration had failed to protect the life, liberty, equality and dignity of the people. ‘‘Unless rebutted by the state government, the adverse inference arising against it would render it accountable. The burden is, therefore, now on the state govt to rebut this presumption,’’ the commission said.

The NHRC found fault with the state government calling the Godhra incident ‘‘premeditated’’ without ‘‘clarifying as to who precisely was responsible for this incident’’. The commission noted that Modi’s claim of containing violence within the first 72 hours was ‘‘naive’’.

‘‘Violence continues in Gujarat at the time of writing these proceedings,’’ the NHRC said.

Mona #64

Have you heard of the Vrindavan Preservation Society ? They did some fund raising with the Indian Association of Greater Boston a while back ... the name stuck in my head - don`t know if they are doing anything useful to clean up the place or are some VHP chaap NRI group.

shammi #58

Cool, I am all for your founding the next Infosys and other great things. In other words you are not interested in this issue ==== great ! But in that case I am not sure why you felt you had to comment on my posting. Either take the heat or stay out of the discussion.

dost-mittar #63

You did not respond to my central point - presumably you either accept it or do not feel it is important enought to respond to. In any case, without addressing its contents there is really nothing substantive to discuss.

``The systematic destruction of hindu and buddhist artifacts throughout North India is a basic fact of history. Not a single temple of any history survives in Afghanistan, Pakistan or Northern India. All of these areas have had a major hindu-buddhist civilization for 4000 years. This needs to be acknowledged. The aggressive positioning of mosques and other structures in locations deeply sacred to Hindus also requires acknowledgement.``

How should acknowledgement be given? I must say I was deeply amused by your idea that the islamic community has no simple way to speak up!!! This from a group that does not tire in issuing ``fatwas`` every day and night! Every two bit mullah issues rulings on world politics, local elections, right to beat your wife and so on.

How come this community was able to speak up mightily to support Bin Laden and pass a death sentence on Salman Rushdie? Lets get real here! Lets not take this discussion to the absurdly theoretical level (you see there is no islamic pope, etc. etc.). There are many simple and practical ways that such a dialog can take place.

As for your statement that there is an alternative muslim view of all this destruction. Well, what is it? Lets put our cards on the table!

If it is, well, idol smashing is OK and these folks were kafirs anyway, well, lets say it openly. One of the most amusing sidelights of the Bamiyan Buddha destruction was an opinion from a revered cleric of Al-Azhar in Cairo: he said there was no need to demolish the Bamiyan Buddhas, as these images were no longer being worshipped! Heh, heh, I am sure that really impressed 1.5 billion hindus and buddhists.

If it is, this was a long time ago and we no longer agree with these practices, and look current muslim societies accommodate minorities including hindus and buddhists (none of this tribal ``people of the book`` junk please!), well that is a whole another matter.

dost-mittar

Sorry for the delay in response. Was busy lately - what with the festivities and all.

You are right about the filth in Vrindavan. However we visited the place when the weather was pleasant and thankfully it had not started to rain. But despite all the filth, the town has one of the most delicious `pedas` to offer and if you could put caution to air and not think of indigestion then you could enjoy the `bedai`, `samosas` and `kachoris`, which along with the pedas are the trademark of the Brij-Bhoomi.

Mona

scout #...

Crash course in Hinduism ... you asked for it ...

#20 ``judging by the number of God`s incarnations Hinduism has (correct me if i`m wrong)``

I DO agree with everything you said about avoiding violence and the deaths of innocents due to some holy piece of land.

Pmishra2

``One of the great ironies of this situation is that the ``bad guys`` (RSS, VHP) have found an issue that has genuine historical depth and complexity and deserves serious debate and resolution. Being bad guys they can only use this issue for division, violence and backwardness. The good guys (the secularists) refuse to engage intellectually with this issue, instead focussing on the RSS and VHP`s loathsome words and actions. This is a fundamental blunder and one reason why the RSS and VHP have been successful in reaching out to educated indians.

My own belief is that we need to re-claim the issue from the bad guys, give it the analysis and understanding it deserves, find symbolic and practical ways to resolve it and move on. BUT BEFORE WE CAN SOLVE A PROBLEM WE HAVE TO NAME IT AND ACKNOWLEDGE IT!

``

This is exactly the problem! These so called secularists are not even ready to acknowledge the problem. This way they have alienated a large segment of Indian population who chose to follow VHP as a backlash against these self-professed secularists. The secularists look the other way when the bitter truths are told to them. There is a need to snatch away the leadership of Hindus from the clutches of these hypocrite secularists/psecs and the Hindu extremists. Time for the middle man to step in who acknowledges all the historical inequities alongwith the caveat that it is INCORRECT to seek retribution from a group because of their ancestors.

RanaRansher #57,

you may point fingers at me, but this problem remains in your country. i find it funny that Indians, on the one hand cry about past religious injustices, and then call their country secular.

and if the government endorses such campaigns, it`s certainly not secular.

do whatever you want, but don`t do it under the farce of secularity and democracy, that`s hypocricy if you ask me. the only laudable democracy and secularity in the world exists in North America and some European countries.

the self-made pedestals Indians and Pakistanis stand on are made of sand.

roohi #...

I don`t need a crash course in Hinduism, I don`t care for religious nuances, Muslim or Hindu.

i was trying to make a point, but obviously some people are too `bitter` and `righteous` to hear it, and think they are being attacked by a Pakistani.

re: RanaRansher

{{AMar Akbar Anthony}}

now THAT was a good movie...better than that Gone With The Wind (wish it was) garbage people go on about....some other good ones: namakharaam; sharaabi; sholay; don; etc etc.

Re: Pmishra2

``...BUT BEFORE WE CAN SOLVE A PROBLEM WE HAVE TO NAME IT AND ACKNOWLEDGE IT! ...``

there are many ways of skinning this cat. One is to go back in history, uncover every wrong, analyze it, and truth be told till everyone is blue in their face. The other is, educate people with a modern, liberal, scientific education (OK -- throw in some liberal arts as well), and develop the economy with a feverish focus, and make a clean break from the past. A little bit of economic well-being with a decent respect (backed with a good old thick laathi) for everyone`s rights will go a long way to discredit the politics of divisiveness. We can spend our energy in many different ways, I would rather spend in developing the next Infosys, than on digging up the history in Baburnama and the title deeds of a now-demolished religious structure.

re: scout

``i hear ya and i agree...that`s what pisses me off. people are too busy worrying about temples and masjids and other inanimate things instead of respecting human life and livelihood.``

cut it out .... stop being such a hypocrite ...why ? you yourself were more concerned about how many Gods, which Gods, what should be holy with regards to Hindu temples.....

YOu dont even want to acknowledge a problem. Forget the solution (everyone become ``insaaN``) it wont come unless you can even acknowledge problems. I really do wonder why Muslims don`t apply their ``balanced and secular`` views to other Muslims. It seems to be reserved for the kafir.

What Mona has raised here is a very important issue ? What she is pointing out is exactly what the debate is all about ..... the history book revisions in India are occuring because of the ``white lies`` floated to appease people in the name of ``comunal harmony``. I personally agree with her (and prefer ``communal harmony`` down your throat type movies like AMar Akbar Anthony`` - but that is a different matter).
Nobody can be and should be held responsible for what their ancestors may or may not have done. All these apologies and reconcialiation is just nonsense and reconciliation of egos really. However, the lies should stop. People should acknowldge what did occur.

There are some people wondering that it would have been better if I had told the truth to my niece. But what purpose would that serve? No matter what the truth is, I wouldn`t want her to grow up being intellectually skewed. I would rather be an escapist than face the truth. For not every issue is solved through head-on confrontation. A lady lost her five years old grandson in the Godhra incident. He is still missing. An autorickshaw driver saw his son of the same age being torched alive in front of him in Ahmedabad. I shudder when I put my niece and nephew in their place. I would rather face these issues than worry about redeeming the past and if that makes me ‘intellectual dishonest’, so be it.

Though this analogue many sounds very romanticised but I would like to take the liberty to ask sonething. What if you are in love with someone and give yourself completely to that person and after taking you for a ride that person ditches you and goes ahead with his/ her life? Do you set out to seek vengeance or learn lesson from it and start looking towards future? This might not be a similar issue but I feel is more personal than any place of worship.

If so many people can spread the ‘truth’ to incite hatred, then a little white lie to bring people closer is not that bad for honesty is not always the best policy.

Mona

t #43

You`re right ofcourse - just trying to educate for the sake of the millions who worship the Maker in the form of Ram and Krishna. Seems people think there are a few million murtis in every hindus little puja!

Understanding others makes better insaaNs don`t you think ?

shammi #52

You use words like ``consensus`` and ``no benefit`` as though these terms are fully defined and understood in every situation. All of these terms need to argued through and their applicability understood in each case. To use these terms as though they are self-evident indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of the terms themselves.

Till the 1950`s there was no consensus that black people in the USA deserved equal treatment. Even today in North India there is no consensus that dalit peoples be given access to education and jobs. The consensus in the USA changed in the 60`s, and we all hope and should work to change attitudes in India.

In India, there has not been the acknowledgement of the massive destruction of hindu and buddhist artifacts. In Afghanistan and Pakistan the official and popular culture takes great pride in the destruction of these artifacts. The Bamiyan Buddha destruction was not an isolated incident: it is part of a sequence that has been going on for 500 years: the ``cleansing`` of Afghan society of its hindu-buddhist past.

In Tibet one aspect of chinese brutality has been the systematic destruction of monasteries and buddhist sites. These are justified are removing ``slavery`` and ``backward attitudes`` (does it remind you of a similar argument justifying destruction of artifacts?). Do you support the Tibetan peoples right to rebuild these structures? After all, in some cases, these structures have been replaced by clinics or transportation centers. Or do you say that ``consensus`` suggests that there is ``no benefit`` to their re-building. Whose ``consensus``? Whose ``benefit``?

What should the correct attitude of the Indian peoples and Indian state to this massive and religously justified destruction? Should we pretend it never really happened (always foolish to do so), should we demand ``revenge`` (inhuman, barbaric and loathsome) or should there some other process of resolution?

One of the great ironies of this situation is that the ``bad guys`` (RSS, VHP) have found an issue that has genuine historical depth and complexity and deserves serious debate and resolution. Being bad guys they can only use this issue for division, violence and backwardness. The good guys (the secularists) refuse to engage intellectually with this issue, instead focussing on the RSS and VHP`s loathsome words and actions. This is a fundamental blunder and one reason why the RSS and VHP have been successful in reaching out to educated indians.

My own belief is that we need to re-claim the issue from the bad guys, give it the analysis and understanding it deserves, find symbolic and practical ways to resolve it and move on. BUT BEFORE WE CAN SOLVE A PROBLEM WE HAVE TO NAME IT AND ACKNOWLEDGE IT!

Tri State Area Chowkies

A Concert to Benefit the victims of Gujrat

The Asian Pacific Forum and Samar Magazine are some of the sponsors of this performance to raise donations to help the communities ravaged in the violence in Gujrat.

Performing: Neela Bhagwat, an artist and activist who had released a CD of her sung interpretations of Kabir.

April 7th, Sunday at 5p.m.

Riverside Church, 120th and Riverside

Donations: Suggested donation is $20.00, but any amount will be appreciated.

Hope to see you there! If anyone needs contact into, please let me know.

Re: PMishra2

``..Do you feel nothing should be done today because current laws were not applicable when the injustice took place?...``

There is an important difference -- one cannot simply apply the algorithm blindly. There is a general consensus that universal education uplifts society. There is no such consensus on the `benefits` to society from replacing one religious structure with another.

harimau-45

``How about visiting Qutb Minar and looking at those pillars used in the construction o the mosque? There are no arches only column and beam construction with the columns still having figures of celestial maidens even though some of the facial features have been chipped off by those who found the figures to be offensive. You will then be telling me that these are the figures of houris and ghilmans... show me one mosque with any representation of a human figure.``

You are absolutely right.The name of this mosque is ``Quwwat-ul-Islam Mosque``.For your information

another mosque known as ``ARhai din ka JhopRa`` in

Ajmer was also built with the materials of a destroyed temple.Most of its columns are decorated

with the Hindu pantheon.For further details read

Arthur Cresswell`s Islamic art and Architecture.

Regards.

t-bhai #43,

i hear ya and i agree...that`s what pisses me off. people are too busy worrying about temples and masjids and other inanimate things instead of respecting human life and livelihood.

What is Hinduism

Hinduism is a Universal Religion

It is a synthesis of approaches. Even the name ``Hinduism``came late. The original name is Sanaat’ana Dharma, Eternal Truth. We can pick up and understand ``that Truth`` in any way we like. In this great religion we leave real freedom of choice in worship, in approaching that One Supreme Entity, that we call God.

In Hindu thought, there is room for everything, not only the nice, refined philosophies. Even the simple, ordinary crude forms of worship are accepted, because that`s where some people begin. They believe in that, like a baby playing with a wooden horse, taking it to the water, putting grass into its mouth and saying, ``Come on, horsey, come and eat.`` You don’`t laugh at the child, because that’s the way a child begins.

Hinduism never rejects or denies anything or anybody. It is a big ocean.It could be called Sindhuism .``Sindhu`` in some of the Indian languages means ``ocean.`` It never says, ``Only Ganga andGodavari may enter; Missouri and Mississippi must stay out.`` No ,they all flow in. Even the city gutter water goes in. It’s as if the big ocean mamma says, ``Come, my child, I know you went around and got dirty. Come in, and I will clean you up.`` Even atheism is accepted. The Hindus know that the moment you say, ``I don`’t believe in God,``you seem to accept a God. If there is not God, why do you want not to believe? You say, that there is a God, but you don’t believe in it. A true Hindu will have no problem in accepting all other faiths. He will never say,``Oh, I am only a Hindu. I am not a Catholic. I’`m not a Buddhist. I’`m not a Muslim.`` They are all based on devotion, the Bhakti Yoga. The ocean never denies any water; it’s all embracing. That is why sometimes I like to call myself ``Undo,`` because I would like to undo ``all limitations``.

All of our problems today are based on the attitude that, ``My way, my approach is the right one. And if you don’`t follow this, you’ll be condemned.``There is no one way, because each mind is different. Each person conceives of God according to his capacity, taste and temperament. You have your way. You have the freedom and the right to follow it; but your following ``your way`` should not cause problems to others. Just as you have your freedom, others must also have the freedom to find peace and joy,- in their own way.

It`s very, painful to see people hurting each other, even killing oneanother, in the name of God and religion. Even in the name of Hinduism, you find religious quarrels. People who see God as S’iva didn’t want to see God as Vishnu. S’aivites and Vaishnavites quarrel. It is our lack of understanding [of our own religion]; we don’`t see the underlying spirituality behind all the diversities in the creation.

Religion has a very important role to play in the world. Unfortunately, it forgets that role, and the different religions fight with one another. We have enough money, enough land, enough food to feed, clothe and house everyone. Poverty and hunger are not due to lack of resources. The reason is that we are not caring and sharing. We have to open and change the hearts of the people. That can be done onlythrough religious understanding;- to help them see that we are all children of that One Absolute God, one global, divine family. There is only one God who is our Lord, who is the life in us. Like rain in the river going back to the ocean, every drop of water that wants to go back to its source is a religious seeker.

God above is like completely distilled water. When it falls down on one side of the river, it is called Heavenly Father. On the other side, they call it Allah. If it falls in the Himalayas, they call it Siva. We may call this One God: Brahma, Father, Mother, Adonai, Cosmic Consciousness, Divine Essence, etc. But we mean the same thing. God is pleased with any name we give Him. He doesn’t care what we call Him, but rather how we feel about Him.

In the Ve’d’aant’ic part of the Hindu scriptures, it says that God has no name or form. So we find it hard to communicate. Due to our limitations, we can never comprehend something without a form. For example, if I say``sweetness``, how would you understand sweetness? Immediately, you have to think of sugar or money or candy. Without a form, you cannotunderstand sweetness. That is the reason why we try to understand God throughforms and names. Otherwise God is formless. The Saiva Saint Manikkavasagar said, ``You don`t have a name; You don`t have a form, but we approachYou with thousands of names and thousands of forms. You accept all our approaches.``

The beauty and greatness of Hinduism is that it allows real freedom of choice in worship. There is room for the Ve’d’aant’in who approaches God within as his own Self without any form. If you wish to approach God through a form, there is S’iva, or Vishnu, or Kumaara; or as a Goddess Durga, Lakshmi, Saraswati and others. If you don`’t believe in a human form of God, you can worship a tree, a snake ora stone. You can see God in any form you want, because God made everything in his own image; everything is His expression. [-as declared by the MahaaVaakyaasin the Ve’d’aas.]

It is my heartfelt player that we all make this resolution: ``From this day onward, my life will be all-embracing and harmonious. Let me learn to accept all the various approaches of people, because everyone is looking for the same happiness and joy in life. Let me not condemn anybody because he or she looks, thinks or, acts a little different. Let me reailize the spiritual unity behind all the diversities in the creation and remember always that we are members of one divine family. This, in my own small, humble way, may contribute to the peace, joy, and harmony of the world.``

pmishra2 #46
``slavery or the lack of education of dalit indians (due to the implementation of the caste system)?All of these events took place a long time ago``

This example is not exactly applicable here, because 1. the cumulative effect of discrimination in the past is the existence of socially and economically disadvantaged groups which suffer these disadvantages even in the present day and 2. society is not quite free of caste discrimination yet.

I had never even heard of RamJanambhoomi growing up as a kid (in the 70s and 80s) but I had heard of Mecca-Medina. For me personally, this temple has no resonance - I did not grow up equating it with Kaaba. I couldnt give a damn if the temple was built or blown-up. If it is important for others, I dont grudge them their priorities. All I know is that never in a million years will I set foot in that temple, if it ever gets built. In fact, to anybody who will listen, I would say, dont touch that temple with a mile long barge pole. Its filthy.

dost-mittar #42

Well spoken. Now here is a different question -- what is your thinking about slavery or the lack of education of dalit indians (due to the implementation of the caste system)? All of these events took place a long time ago, well before current legal and political infra-structure was in place. What is your position in this space? Do you feel nothing should be done today because current laws were not applicable when the injustice took place?

I think an honest appraisal of the past is always difficult. Without honesty no real progress is possible. Further, acknowledging injustice in the past does not mean that ``revenge`` is justified today.

The systematic destruction of hindu and buddhist artifacts throughout North India is a basic fact of history. Not a single temple of any history survives in Afghanistan, Pakistan or Northern India. All of these areas have had a major hindu-buddhist civilization for 4000 years. This needs to be acknowledged. The aggressive positioning of mosques and other structures in locations deeply sacred to Hindus also requires acknowledgement.

How to respond to this destruction is another matter. But without honesty about the problem we will never get anywhere. The RSS and VHP will win with their hateful agendas and horrible attitudes towards minorities.

Ref AAmir #: 19

[harimau

How SURE are you that what your Hypothesis is NOT base on South Indian having more temples than North India.??

Why is it Not possible that North Indian Hindus were different than South indians as borne by architecture of temples in South is very intricate almost piece of artistic carvings .I have never seen ,even among the Birla mandirs ,Kali of Kalighat Calcutta ,Bhubaneshwar,Puri Pashupathi nath ,Benares, anything resembling temples in & around Chennai?]

So why don`t you read history written by Muslim historians and see what they had to say about their sultans? How about visiting Qutb Minar and looking at those pillars used in the construction o the mosque? There are no arches only column and beam construction with the columns still having figures of celestial maidens even though some of the facial features have been chipped off by those who found the figures to be offensive. You will then be telling me that these are the figures of houris and ghilmans... show me one mosque with any representation of a human figure.

Don`t attempt to deny history. I have never said that some current generation of Muslims should pay for the misdeeds of some invader a thousand years back. But I will not let historical inaccuracies be presented as the truth.

Ref ylh #: 16

[Thankyou sir for that information. I didn`t know that. I will never again mention Nehru as one of my favorite world leaders since according to you he was a closet Hindu Bigot.]

Yasser, chill, will ya.

A leader must understand the feelings of his people if he is to lead them. Thus Nehru could understand the feelings of the people of Saurashtra about the destruction of the Somnath temple and their desire to rebuild it. Why the hell are all of you so hellbent on liberating Jerusalem from Israel? That is okay for Muslims to do but no other people, be it Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, should have any fondness for historical sites?

[I never understand this need to heal the `wounds` inflicted by people 1000 years ago in a different time to different people in context of a different environment. Only fools `heal` such wounds! Next perhaps the Muslim World should attack Mongolia to avenge the destruction of Baghdad by Halaqu in the 13th century, and while we are at it, lets go kill a couple of Englishmen for King Richard`s attrocities in the Holy Land during the Crusades...]

No, no, no. Just get the Sunnis from killing the Shias in Pakistan before you tell the rest of the world how to behave.

Do you realize how tiresome you have begun to sound?

roohi #41: and scout

........shhhhhhhhhhh......zara kaan nazdeek la`iyay.....aur hum jo likhaiNgay oosay apnay paas hee rakhna...theek hay?;)

...aray behnaa!...as`l baat tou yeh hay kay pehlay hum aadmi/aaurat say guzar kar `insaan` banaiN...achchay insaan banaiN...kisi ka dil na duka`aiN...jub hum insaan bun ja`aiNgay tou phir kisi khuda/bhagwaan ki zaroorat ya kami mehsoos na hogi...

lve,

t

scout

``what about the other Gods? aren`t they special to people too? not all Hindus worship just those three.``

Scout, this is my understanding - Practicing Hindus believe in the Trimurti or the Trinity of Bhrama - Vishnu - Shiva. The creator the preserver and the destroyer. Three aspects of the same universal Brahman (or Bhagwan, Paramatma, Ishwar etc.)

Most Hindus are Vaishnav - for them Vishnu the Preserver is the supreme aspect of God. Vishnu is the only one that incarnates on earth to protect the universal order or Dharma.

Of Vishnus 9 incarnations the ones where he is a man and his life story is well known enough to warrant a Janam Bhoomi are Ram Avtar (Ayodhya) and Krishna Avtar (Mathura)and Buddha(Lumbani - in Nepal - no controversy there).

What other gods are you talking about ? My list in order of importance ....

Ram (7 th Avtar of Vishnu)

Krishna (8th Avtar of Vishnu)

Shiva (the destroyer) there are many Shivaite sects though nowhere nowhere close to the Vaishnavs - but Shiva is not born, he just is

Bhrama (the creator) is not ususally worshipped

Their wives:

Laxmi (Vishnu`s wife)

Durga (Shiva`s wife)

Saraswati (Bhrama`s wife)

Any other deities are secondary ... please correct me if I`m wrong people ... I`m not an expert ... just trying to summarize the Pantheon for the (even more) uninformed

Aamir #19:

``I have never seen ,even among the Birla mandirs ,Kali of Kalighat Calcutta ,Bhubaneshwar,Puri Pashupathi nath ,Benares, anything resembling temples in & around Chennai?``

Aamir, temples in Chennai and rest of South India follow the Dravidan style of architecture and hence are different from those in the North. The RULES for temple building are different.

``Why is the charges of demolition only ...in Cow belt area which have banned beef,urdu ,are Sangh Parivar controlled ANti Muslim ,visibly & Virulent...``

Becase North India was the region most targeted by Muslim invaders. Hindus there have more bitter memories of suffering at the hands of Muslim rulers, forced conversions etc.

The South was lucky to escape much of the devastation and hence there are lots of historic temples in the South. And also, less friction between the two religions. Muslim rulers here were relatively benign. Tipu Sultan is a hero in Karnataka (though a villian to my Keralite friends).

scout #20:

Layman - ``Also, hardly any Muslims in Spain at the moment to rue over the lost mosques, while there are lots of Hindus in India, and tasting political power after a loooong time, so there...``

Scout - ``dude, the only country hurting in all this temple vs. mosque bull$hit is India. i don`t see what kind of political gain unrest is.``

I think you misunderstood. What I said was that in India, Hindu (nationalists) are now in a position of power and hence able to do something about past ills (whether the course they are taking is right is another matter), whereas in Spain, I dont think there are enough number of Muslims to be able to do something about the mosques converted to churches.

``judging by the number of God`s incarnations Hinduism has (correct me if i`m wrong), there can`t possibly just a couple of places that are sacred then? where do you draw the line?

better yet, why stop at birth place?``

I think others have made the point that only the three holiest of the holy sites are being asked for. This is the VHP view. It does not represent all Hindus. Some Hindus may not care to reclaim even these. Others may want more. One way to look at it is the relative importance of the mosques in these sites. Are these mosques of special significance (like the Hazrat Bal or Mecca)? Or are they just like ANY OTHER mosque in India?

Similarly of the 3000+ temples destroyed by Muslims, which were of special significance and which were like ANY OTHER temple in India?

If both parties agree that only these three sites are MOST IMPORTANT to Hindus and that the mosques on these sites are not of special significance to Muslims, then what (except ego) prevents a compromise where these sites are returned to Hindus and the same mosques (with govt or Hindu funding) built elsewhere to continue to meet the religious needs of the Muslims using them now?

``in any event, isn`t it better to avoid violence and the deaths of innocents due to some holy piece of land? i`m sure the God who was born there must be looking down and shaking his head. Conflicts regarding religion are not really conflicts of Gods but conflicts of the egos of people.``

Absolutely I agree that the solution should not come through violence. Which is why a compromise that satisfies both parties and aviods violence must be sought. I am not sure whether the courts can decide on a matter of faith, especially in a country like India where rule of law and respect for it is not as entrenched as say the US or Germany.

re: scout

I am trying to point out that while the end result (truth) we both seek in this case is the same, the arguments (alternate truths) you make seem to obfuscate the main point here.

To your questions: ``all i`m saying is that, when something does more harm than good, is it worth making a fuss over?``
NO

``is building a temple in place of the destroyed mosque worth the aggravation and murders of innocents, Hindus and Muslims? just answer that.``
NO.

THe reason the answers to the above are NO, are different than the ones you are trying to make. Lets try this a different way .... it does not lie in How many Gods (personal diety/manifestations) are worshipped or making a fuss over ONE:MANY. Or why a place is ``sacred`` holy at all ? These silly arguments may have brought about a truce amongst warring tribes at various places in various times but have no bearing to the current Mandir/Masjid disputes in India (or any such debate about ANY holy place). Places are sacred because people have ``faith``....all very irrational. So get this chip off your shoulder.... start by understanding familiar stuff like ``Why do Muslims perform Hajj and what is special about the Kabba ?`` Or what is so special about Mosques built after destroying other places of worship (not to mention the millions of kafirs killed to do so)

The KluKluxKlan of India (the VHP/RSS) needs to be stopped for different reasons. (secularism and the fact that 2 wrongs don`t make a right, etc., etc. and the fact that they have a fascist world-view)


BTW does your secular advice apply to all the ``disputed Muslim Holy lands`` ? (Jerusalem and every other place they are doing ``jihad`` to ``liberate`` it) OR to Muslims at all. Should Palestinians abide by the following ``in any event, isn`t it better to avoid violence and the deaths of innocents due to some holy piece of land?`` ---- and does it apply to all the Muslims doing Jihad (as seen on TV) globally for the last 6 months. (I am not saying that all Muslims are terrorists but just that a lot of Muslims are doing terrorism and calling it Jihad)

everyone:
Please no lectures on what Jihad actually means. I am talking about Jihad - AS SEEN ON TV. Just like the Jihad VHP Hindus were doing in Gujrat.

RanaRansher #25,

i don`t know what you`re trying to say by pointing out holy places. i don`t give a damn about them and the hair of Prophet Mohammed is insignificant to most educated people. that is not the issue here anyway.

all i`m saying is that, when something does more harm than good, is it worth making a fuss over?

is building a temple in place of the destroyed mosque worth the aggravation and murders of innocents, Hindus and Muslims? just answer that.

Ralph #24, `` Every religion has a few very holy places. kashi, ayodhiya, mathura are very holy to hindus. They worship ram, krishna, shiva most importantly.``

what about the other Gods? aren`t they special to people too? not all Hindus worship just those three.

``Minorities in any country should respect the basic rights of the majority community. Intransigence of one minority creates anger and ill will against all minorities.``

basic rights? destroying and killing over some holy piece of land is a basic right? what happened to the secular, democratic India?

Reply #: 20

scout

``

...better yet, why stop at birth place?

``

-- Because Scout, we are compromising. The VHP has only asked for 3 places even though the number of temples that were destroyed, desecrated, converted into mosques run in the thousands.

We don`t want to dig up every unfair harm that happened to us during the time of the not so tolerant mughal regime.

However these 3 places are as sacred to us as the Mosques at Mecca and Medina and the Dome of the Rock is to Muslims.

So please don`t make the argument look ridiculous by putting in stts, such as ``when does it stop ?``

AD

Reply #: 23

pmishra2

Well said.

As I read in indiat-today, secularism is a 2 way street. Its about time muslims start practising what they expect from the majority community which is tolerance.

A good start would be for one of the gulf states to adopt a secular constitution. Let muslims first practise secularisim while they are in a majority before expecting the same when they are in the minority.

AD

Reply #: 1

ali1

``

Dont worry Mona, the demolition of the mosque in Mathura is also the national will of Indian people very much like the demolition of Babri Mosque. How can the birthplace of krishna be less important than the birthplace of rama? If some mosques are defiling their birthplaces then these must go. If Indian muslims have a problem with the demolition then they must go too! 5000 thousand muslims killed for ayodhya, another 5000 for mathura, hey!! whats the big deal?

``

-- Ali1, you have always been one to shoot first and ask questions later.

I ask you and all other muslims to answer one question: Say Israel goes crazy and demolishes the DOme of the Rock Mosque and replaces it with a synagogue. Over the years, Palastinie gets possession of Jerusalem. Would any of you support the synagogue over the mosque ?

And Ali1, the demand is only at 3 very sacred places for hindus. These palces find mention in texts that are over a 1000 years old. So please don`t try to misrepresent them by saying every majsid in India is contoversial and needs to go.

AD

RanaRansher

``

People should respect and learn from history and not seek to ``correct`` it by ``undoing`` things. And taking sides on a purely religious issue like this is, well, in the least unsecular. How far back is back afterall ?

``

--One of the strongest arguments I made against the temple construction was

that when Babar broke the temple, India was NOT a secular country but when

some Hindus broke the Majsid then India WAS a secular country. So what the

latter did was illegal and hence they were wrong.

However in the past couple of years the concept of ``Reconciliation`` has been

in vogue. E.g.:

1)Truth and Reconciliation Commission in S. Africa for crimes against blacks

during apartheid.

2)Families of Nazi Victims getting money back from Swiss banks despite

inadequate proof of ownership

3)Japan apologizing to S. Korea for using their women as comfort women in

the Korean war.

4)Debate in the U.S. about compensating blacks for slavery.

5) General Pinochet of Argentina facing Crimes Against Humanity for his

brutal repression of political dissidents in Argentina.

6) Pope close to apologizing for the Spanish Inquisition

(http://www.geocities.com/iberianinquisition/)

All the above have ONE thing in common. One group of people was victimized

by another group on the basis of their skin color, ethnicity, nationality,

religion or political beliefs. In fact #6 is similar to what happened in

India, simply replace Islam with Catholics and Hindus with Jews.

If you are opposed to the above, then I can understand your stance on the

temple issue.

Otherwise, I think true healing only takes place once the symbols of oppression are removed, be it the Confederate flag in the US or the Babri majsids and its` like in India.

AD

Reply # 3 scout

[``are you Pakistani?``]

I am of Pakistani origin.

[``if you are, did you ever get this passionate about the sectarian violence that occurs in Pakistan every day?``]

I am passionate about a number of things and you have no need to know about `em all. But this one you should know: I have absolutely no passion for aging desi spinsters who repeatedly enroll in community colleges to get the ``student`` label.

Don`t worry too much about sectarianism or communalism please. Why don`t you go and play your makhi/machhar or pumpkin/munchkin game with rsaxena?

Reply # 3 scout

[``are you Pakistani?``]

I am of Pakistani origin.

[``if you are, did you ever get this passionate about the sectarian violence that occurs in Pakistan every day?``]

I am passionate about a number of things and you have no need to know about `em all. But this one you should know: I have absolutely no passion for aging desi spinsters who repeatedly enroll in community colleges to get the ``student`` label.

Don`t worry too much about sectarianism or communalism please. Why don`t you go and play your makhi/machhar or pumpkin/munchkin game with rsaxena?

Shankar #27

I do not think people are suggesting that existing mosques and structures (e.g., Qutub Minar) be destroyed. But there should be an open acknowledgement of the problem. Unfortunately, there has been a tendency to pretend this problem does not exist and can be ignored. Even more distressing is the open lying and suggestions that somehow the construction of mosques right next to Hindu sites is respectful or appropriate.

This type of evasion has helped the RSS and the VHP a lot. They have been able to divert all positive thinking on this issue to hatred and revenge taking.

BTW, you are right about the state guaranteeing minority rights. Without that democracy and secularism mean nothing. Notice however that in the USA there is a single civil code that governs all citizens. This is also a reasonable goal for India.

You may be interested to know that this was challenged in the USA by the Mormons in the 1840s. A large federal army arrived soon after in Salt Lake City, and to this day, Fort Douglas looms over the city, its (old) cannon pointing straight down towards the mormon cathedral downtown.

Ralph,

Why cant temples be built next to mosques; instead of destroying the mosques? Just as minorities should respect majorities--the hallmark of democracy is that VICE VERSA should be guarded and respected as well. Otherwise words like ``secularism``, ``religious freedom``, ``democracy`` are meaningless.

There is much emphasis in the US system of democracy to prevent ``the tyranny of majority``. It is an elaborate system of ``checks & balances``. Thats why the Civil Liberties mvt fought for the rights of those annoying Hare Krishna guys to distribute pamphlets at US airports, or the right of the Jehovah`s Witness to knock on your door to distribute pamphlets--even if it is a bother.

S.Arabia has NEVER claimed its a democracy or is a secular country. So building a temple or synagauge next to the Kabaa is a moot issue.

If India constantly (and many times annoyingly) shouts at world forums about being the ``World`s largest democracy``--then it has automatically taken the responsibility of being judged by the prevailing standards of democracy.

Dukhi Ram

I am not fake, I am just petty. I dont want to con people, nor do I want to brainwash them, with charas, bhang or my miracles for crying out loud. If that was what I wanted, I would have done it long time ago. All I want is an isolated island of my own, where I am god over my nymphs. Where I love to listen to Serendipity. Where I am the Narcissus and I break my Echo`s heart every day, whenever she tries to speak to me. I am petty. Not fake.

re: scout
``better yet, why stop at birth place? ``

I am sure you know, people don`t ``stop`` at the birth place.

IN Afghanistan one of the most famous mosques is where supposedly Prophet Mohammad`s cloak sits. Mullah Omar takes the cloak out and shows it to the ``faithful`` and they do sajda to him (err fall at this feet) and kiss the cloak. That then seals his being Amir-ul-Momineen. How his cloak got there is irrelevant.

Kashmir has the famous ``Hazrat-bal`` mosque where supposedly a hair of Prophet Mohammad lies. The greatest new angle is the likelihood that Jesus CHrist was amongst the buried holimen in some of these present day mosques and they want to exhume the bodies. They already have gone ahead with this in parts of Pakistan. Aage aage hota hai - dekho. (Oh GOd !!by sharing that here have I just karmically sown a future riot somewhere ??)

Why ? .... in the US of A (and the rest of the world) , Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christian, Jews, Mormons, Moonies, etc, etc. all have their places of worship where absolutely nothing is sacred about them. They just bought the land.

And maybe you could explain what is so sacred about the Kabba. What is so special about that ? Or perhaps why Osama ``theGreatMussalman`` BinLaden is upset about the Americans ``desecrating`` ``the`` holy land ?

WHat are you trying to say scout ?
When humans ``organize`` themselves around religion this is what you get and this is one of the displays of ``faith``. Organized religion is indeed the biggest crime towards humanity.

Long live Kafirism !! join now - still a thriving ``sect`` not an ailing ``church``.

scout #20. Every religion has a few very holy places. kashi, ayodhiya, mathura are very holy to hindus. They worship ram, krishna, shiva most importantly. Minorities in any country should respect the basic rights of the majority community. Intransigence of one minority creates anger and ill will against all minorities.

rana #20. Well said. Let us see some secular muslims advocate construction of a temple next to kaba in medina. No one should destroy Kaba. Only build a temple next to it. That is not too much to ask to show the spirit of accommodation.

AAmir #19

There are differences between temple styles in South India and North India. So What??

The issue is the systematic destruction of

hindu, buddhist and jain temples in North

India. Just visit the Qutub Minar in Dehli. There is ample documentation and physical debris to prove its relationship to hindu and buddhist temples.

I have personally visited temples in the Jammu region where the faces

of all the idols have been systematically smashed. There is plenty of historical evidence to explain why this happened and who was responsible.

Don`t waste our time with your silly equivocations. Next, you will be explaining all the mosques perched right on top of traditional hindu pilgrimage sites as an amazing coincidence or even worse, a ``sign of respect``.

Within Islam destruction of explicit divine representation is supported. This is deeply hurtful to Hindus and Buddhists. Until muslims modernize and put some distance between this tradition and themselves, this issue will not go away.

The north of India, including what is now Pakistan have suffered specially from this type of systematic destruction. Almost no ancient temples survive in this region accept as ruins.

In the south and east India Islam has quite a different history and correspondingly relationship between hindus and muslims are also quite different.

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very interesting arguments.....
especially the very ``secular`` balanced views expressed by the Muslims on this board.
I agree with you 100%. No 2 wrongs make a right. People should respect and learn from history and not seek to ``correct`` it by ``undoing`` things. And taking sides on a purely religious issue like this is, well, in the least unsecular. How far back is back afterall ?

I hope some of you could go and solve the Arab-Israeli dispute. Maybe you could figure out Jerusalem for them. I hope your secular arguments even apply to Islam and Islamists.

Layman #8, ``I am not sure of the religious significance the mosques in Spain had... but the birth place of God`s incarnations (avatars) do have a special significance, dont you agree?``

judging by the number of God`s incarnations Hinduism has (correct me if i`m wrong), there can`t possibly just a couple of places that are sacred then? where do you draw the line?

better yet, why stop at birth place?

in any event, isn`t it better to avoid violence and the deaths of innocents due to some holy piece of land? i`m sure the God who was born there must be looking down and shaking his head. Conflicts regarding religion are not really conflicts of Gods but conflicts of the egos of people.

``Also, hardly any Muslims in Spain at the moment to rue over the lost mosques, while there are lots of Hindus in India, and tasting political power after a loooong time, so there...``

dude, the only country hurting in all this temple vs. mosque bull$hit is India. i don`t see what kind of political gain unrest is.

For Roohi,

Kemal Ataturk to a British Correspondent ` I have no religion, and sometimes I wish all religions to the bottom of the sea` (1928)

Harimau,

`` Do you know that Nehru attended the opening of the Somnath Temple that was rebuilt after 1947? He said that the new temple finally started healing the gash that had been on the collective psyche of the Hindus for over a thousand years. Do you even understand why an agnostic like Nehru would have said that? Fortunately, Mahmud of Ghazni did not erect a mosque in place of the temple he destroyed so there was no controversy over the rebuilding of the Somnath Temple as there is today over Ramjanmabhoomi and Krishnajanmabhoomi.``

Thankyou sir for that information. I didn`t know that. I will never again mention Nehru as one of my favorite world leaders since according to you he was a closet Hindu Bigot.

I never understand this need to heal the `wounds` inflicted by people 1000 years ago in a different time to different people in context of a different environment. Only fools `heal` such wounds! Next perhaps the Muslim World should attack Mongolia to avenge the destruction of Baghdad by Halaqu in the 13th century, and while we are at it, lets go kill a couple of Englishmen for King Richard`s attrocities in the Holy Land during the Crusades...

Stupid, Stupid people!

#: 8

Layman

scout #3:

``there are many mosques in Spain that were turned into churches....it doesn`t really matter. people in Spain are doing fine. it`s just us desis who get idiotic about reli``

Layman

Well Done!

Teach these semi baked muslims there own history !!!

I have a dream, a desire, since I was a little kid, since the time I started reading on my own. But before I tell you about my dream, I want to ask people of Hindu faith a couple of questions. By george it is not my intention to offend you but to ask you to clarify certain things about your faith. It is my understanding that most of the prominent Hindu gods shared approximately a contemporary time with each other. The earliest Upnishads were written some 1000 to 1500 BC. The epics that describe those gods are from Upnaishads-meaning that gods came to earth in prehistoric times. So my question is when was the last time a god was born. And who. Why aren`t gods born these days. I have read that Gandhi is also considered an Avtar, was he literally an avtar or is it just a figure of speech. Why there hasn`t been a god born since past 2500-3000 years. Is there a chance that a god is born tomorrow. Does it have to be India where he will be born. Will you accept a god if he is born in Africa or even Paksitan. how would you know that a god is born. Does a new god has to do only good things to Hindu people or a god doing good things to Paksitani Muslims will also be a god. For example, was mother thresa a godess a devi and what about maulana abdul sattar edhi, is he a potential god.

I ask these questions because I have a dream since I was a kid. It is actually a carnal desire rather than a dream to be a god at some lonely undiscovered island. I think being god is great, being a prophet suckks. If you are a god you do not need to carry that bagage of morality and righteous virtue all the time like prophets. You do whatever you want to do because you are god-the unquestionable, the absolute, all powerful god. I like hindu gods better because they are not as absolute, as unquestionable, as all powerfull as Sematic gods. It is easier to relate to Hindu gods. I dont want to be an avtar like Gandhi. Gandhi had to work his tail off to become an avatar. I do not want to work that hard-I just want to be a god. I am sure if I know how, I will find my island.

rsaxena

why thankyou ... :)

The author says [True, that in many parts of India we find broken statues and temples. But if one is to be believed then why were mosques built in some of the places where once the temples stood. Was it because the invader/ ruler got some pervert satisfaction out of it? Or was it his way of recognizing the holiness of the place, while building a mosque there and offering prayers to the God in the way he was used to? We might never be sure because history only gives us an account of the rulers and invaders and tells us nothing about what went through the hearts and mind of the people of the bygone era.]

Yes, Mona. You are completely right. The Muslim invaders had nothing but the purest thoughts in mind. That is why they built their mosques on holy grounds wherever they found them. It is too bad that the Taliban was ousted before they could build a masjid where the Bamiyan Buddhas stood. They were only clearing the area to build a magnificent masjid so that the sanctity of the place could be recognized for years to come.

You, Mona, are a complete idiot. You are so full of sh!t I can`t believe it. Why did you lie to your niece? What happens when she learns of your lie from a Vishwa Hindu Parishad pamphlet that calls for the destruction of that particular mosque? Why didn`t you tell her that the previous Krishna temple was looted and then burnt to the ground by an invading Muslim king and the mosque was erected in its place and that Hindus over a period of time built their temple at an adjacent spot?... because that is the truth! Why didn`t you explain to her that it is perhaps not possible to set matters right today because of the fact that we have to learn to live with people of all faiths whereas that was not necessarily the thinking a thousand years back? Why did you lie? What were you so ashamed of that you had to lie?

Do you know that Nehru attended the opening of the Somnath Temple that was rebuilt after 1947? He said that the new temple finally started healing the gash that had been on the collective psyche of the Hindus for over a thousand years. Do you even understand why an agnostic like Nehru would have said that? Fortunately, Mahmud of Ghazni did not erect a mosque in place of the temple he destroyed so there was no controversy over the rebuilding of the Somnath Temple as there is today over Ramjanmabhoomi and Krishnajanmabhoomi.

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When Islam came to India, Muslims too saw this place. They to believing that God is one considered this place to be holy. So they built a mosque beside it to offer prayer in the way their religion has taught to them.

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This is intellectual dishonesty, plain and simple. This is not going to offer any solutions to anything. All it does is convinvce middle-class hindus that ``secular`` indians are afraid to face the truth about their islamic history. This is one reason why hate-mongers like the RSS have gained traction in India.

The systematic destruction of hindu and buddhist images and artifacts throughout North India and Afghanistan is something that needs to be acknowledged and accepted by all reasonable people. Doing so does not make one a hindu fanatic. Only a fanatic about the truth. Satyamev Jayate!

The next question is: what is the correct response? This is a difficult question, and like many others, requires open discussion and exchange of ideas.

Consider the caste-system. It is a terrible thing especially for the dalit peoples. It has basically been a form of slavery for them. It has mostly been perpetrated by upper-caste hindus.

Should we try to deny it? Should we pretend that in the past there could have been some reasons why it is was OK? Absolutely not. At the same time acknowledging this terrible crime does not give the right of revenge to dalits. There is affirmative action, special emphasis on dalit education, political empowerment,....

ylh #2

Would you please,please wake up and snap out of it ? This is Planet Earth - the most powerful nation here leads under the banner ``In God we Trust`` !! Bush is a born again and so is Putin !! No candidate running for President would ever deny God here in the USA. I get a couple of JW`s or Mormons at my door per month seeking new lambs for their flock. They politely ask me to accept the word of Jesus and I politely tell them No. This is OK with me and that is what we need to learn. I too have the freedom to go door to door handing out flowers and asking people to accept Krishna, if I wanted !!

Who are the Pakistanis and Indians with their millions of uneducated, poor masses to break out of the shameless ``subcontinental`` obsessions with god ? It is not going to HAPPEN in the REAL WORLD.

All we can do is TRY and get them to co-exist peacefully. It can happen - but people have to be persuaded to give up their cherished hatered of the OTHER faith and see them as people not evil monoliths !!! My neighborhood is filled with Jewish and Catholic families that a century or two ago were still in the Pogrom stage of coexistance.

Please DO continue to live in the fantasy world in your head while other people try and actually do something about reconciling people without stripping them of their faith !!!!! or GROW UP !!!

scout #3:

``there are many mosques in Spain that were turned into churches....it doesn`t really matter. people in Spain are doing fine. it`s just us desis who get idiotic about religious issues.``

I am not sure of the religious significance the mosques in Spain had... but the birth place of God`s incarnations (avatars) do have a special significance, dont you agree?

Also, hardly any Muslims in Spain at the moment to rue over the lost mosques, while there are lots of Hindus in India, and tasting political power after a loooong time, so there...