Deja Vu

Re: Fuzair

``...its a bit much hearing this coming out of ``Altaf Bhai...``

Knowing only a little bit about him, and after hearing the audio version of his speech, I can only say that I do not trust the man and that he is a demagogue. His oral delivery gives me an uncomfortable feeling of his being a manipulator of gullible voters and a clever alley cat.

``...Lets hope that after the ``referendum,`` the MQM is again disposed off ...``

I would not bet on this. The cynic in me tells me that Musharraf will want to use every ally he can find to legitimize himself. Zia chose Islamists and Musharraf is chosing born-again Sindhi nationalists. I have also read that Musharraf is associating himself with all kinds of scum politicians on his `campaign` trail -- I do not know anything about these guys, but it does not bode well. I am also reminded about the gullible Indian voters who felt that the BJP could use the Hindu fanatics to deliver votes and then conveniently discard them after coming to power. We now know that discarding them has not proved to be easy and they have exacted their pound of flesh.

``...your`s (India`s hands) were dirty then...``

Our hands are STILL very dirty -- think Gujarat

Re: Prem

``...What is the strategic intent of these two Mohajir men?...``

You pose this question as if the Referendum and its associated politics is being played like a game of chess by two Grandmasters. It is not. It is a game of expediency in which caution is being thrown to the winds for tactical gains. There is no `strategic intent` -- it is a dirty game of real politik. The only intent is to stay in power.

YLH:

`...federalist Pakistan...`

Great idea on paper -- but have you listened to his speech in its entirety? If and when you do, you will come to the conclusion that this `clever` man is playing his own game of brinkmanship, and is looking to carve an empire for himself rather than care about a `Federation`. His subtle taunts and challenges do not come through English translations in newspapers, but are unmistakable in the original Urdu. Most of his speech was about Sindhi nationalism (and the `we have suffered a lot under Punjabis` demagoguery) rather than about Pakistan. He left little doubt in my mind that he would trade in Pakistani unity if he could be the new Sindhi czar. He even included a threat to impose a stiff import duty (1620%) on Punjabi imports if Sindh became independent unless Sindh begins to see more of the 67% contribution to the national exchequer.

Shammi

Altaf is not the threat he once was. And MQM, if it should see a level field for itself, will not be his exclusive tool. Communities that felt his need, no longer feel it, or rather do not feel it to the degree they once did. Additionally, like BB, he is finding that being outside, unconnected to his support base, a significant problem. And Mr. Musharraf has not been idle, numberous personalities and political movements with provincial or sub-provincial concerns are taking shape, these have diluted his appeal and support even more.

The call for a new constitution is indeed interesting - it may help Mr. Musharraf push ammendments with more support. But only by improving the business climate and conditions, creating large numbers of jobs in urban sindh and breaking feudalism in rural Sindh by promoting universal education and agricultural processing industry in rurual sindh, will the sense of neglect the support base of Mr. Altaf feels, be addressed.

re: Fuzair # 158

From what I have read many/most of those allegations seem to be true. Indian government, it seems, was very much instrumental in creating/supporting LTTE. That we later withdrew our support, and paid heavily for our foolishness in getting involved in someone else`s business, does not negate the fact that we were at that time a sponsor of terrorism. LTTE`s very genuine grievances do not change the fact that India was engaged in terrorism.

Still, I would like to know if you think there is a difference here, and that it may be far harder for Pakistan to put its terrorism behind than it was for India. I would present my somewhat cynical (but, as always, I think, factual) analysis.

Indian terrorism seems to have been a strictly military operation. The social sector, except for some pockets in Tamil Nadu, was untouched by this terrorism. In fact, if the whole nation had found out about the nature and extent of international terrorism abetted by India, domestic democratic processes would probably have ended this misadventure sooner, saving us much misery.

In Pakistan, matters appear to be radically different. Pakistani military does not keep its international terrorism hidden from Pakistani people. * It uses all its myriad instruments of power and communication (propaganda) to fashion and disseminate multichromatic justifications for international terrorism (I am assuming here that what appears on PTV and is written by quite a few civilian and almost all military commentators on subjects of Kashmir/Afghanistan in Pakistani press reflects at least some influence of Pakistani miltary`s views).

IMO, the ``logic of terror`` in Pakistani flows as follows -

Pakistani military on its own and with the help of its religious and journalistic collaborators propagates all kinds of justifications for internationl terrorism. The most effective way to do this is to use the word Jihad for terrorism, and to bombard Pakistani people with an ever rising graph of reported deaths and rapes, all to be blamed on the Indian military (not all of it false).

Given the combined reach of Pakistani military, mullahs, PTV, and hordes of ``committed`` journalists, many Pakistani people actually absorb the military mindset with regard to international terrorism.

Then Pakistani government/leaders turn around and claim that since Pakistani people support this terrorism, they are duty bound to continue with it. This justifies greater investment in military terrorist activities.

That`s how Pakistani military`s circle of terror gets completed. IMO Indian military`s terror campaign in Sri Lanka did not have such a self-reinforcing, self-perpetuating quality.

So, while India could stop its terrorism because its engagement was, in societal terms, very limted, and clandestine; in Pakistan the virus has been spread war and wide - among young and old, higly educated and totally uneducated. Besides this passive and ``(im)moral`` support of the populace, the cause of terrorism has been actively taken up by other segments of society - foremost among them the ``religious`` leaders -- who as far as Kashmir is (or Afghanistan was earlier) concerned, form a social extension of the Pakistani military mind.

Azhar Masood - a creature of the ISI and, hence, Pakistani military - is a typical example. Even if Pakistan wanted to, Pakistan can not get rid of him because, in a basic sense, he is an integral part of Pakistani military/ISI jehadi megastrcture. And so long as people like him are there, above-ground or under-ground, Pakistani authorities will say (perhaps out of genuine belief) that Pakistani people support international terrorism.

Am I being far too cynical? May be I am. It`s very late at night :)

Good night all.



* When I assert that Pakistani military does not keep its terrorist operations hidden from Pakistani public I mean that everyone in Pakistan is aware, deep down, that ``we are involved.`` Beyond that, people are remarkably adept at believing whatever the military tells them. So, I am certain many pakistanis did not believe that their military had anything to do with kargil. Even now articles appear insinuating that Indians attacked their own parliament, hijacked their own airplane to Kabul, killed their own people. So in a way, Pakistani military and Pakistani people seem to be engaged in a fascinating game of trust - of wink and nod - when it comes to international terrorism. This is not an indictment of Pakistani people - just a statement of why Pakistan`s challenge is more complex. Perhaps if we had been in their place, we would have done the same thing.

Romair,

I guess we are just spinning in circles.

Since you subscribe to the theory that India covets a merger with Pakistan...may I ask you? what benefit would such a merger be..for India?!

Yes, the IPKF did invade Sri Lanka and try to destroy the LTTE AFTER the Sri Lankan govt abandoned all pretence of national sovereignity and accepted the Rajiv Doctrine. Having achieved all of its aims, the Indian Govt rightly considered the LTTE to be quite dispensable and actually quite an embarrassment now. Unfortunately for the IPKF, the LTTE proved to be an undigestable mouthful. So I don`t think for a moment that the Indians had any altruistic motivation in despatching the IPKF. All they were there for was to destroy their now-dispensable and ultra-recalcitrant allies since the geopolitical realities had changed.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... Sound familiar? Isn`t that what Pakistan did post-9/11 and every Indian jumped up and down screaming themselves hoarse about it? Short memories some people have.

If the IPKF hadn`t failed in its pacification mission and Rajiv Gandhi hadn`t lost the elections, I have no doubt that the Indians would have a permanent military presence in Sri Lanka, complete with Indian military ``advisors`` in the Sri Lankan Armed Forces.

Now I`ve heard--don`t know if its absolutely true or not--that the Sri Lankan Army was passing on intelligence on the IPKF to the LTTE since it hated the Indians almost as much as it hated the LTTE. Quite a few Sri Lankan Army officers were/are trained in Pakistan, especially in artillery and COIN Ops and I believe our SSG helped set up the Sri Lankan special forces, and to a man there was no love lost between them and the Indians. I assume the passions have cooled down a bit now since the Indian govt (either state or central) is no longer openly arming, training and financing the LTTE but I`m sure that there are still LTTE sympathizers in RAW and the Tamil Nadu govt.

So give the moral high horse a rest. You are no better than us and the Indian govt`s hands are just as dirty. Its your good fortune that it was Al Qaeda who staged 9/11 and the Taliban who sheltered those homicidal fanatics. Now the Indians can pretend to be the aggrieved party and cry about being victimized by evil Pakistanis. IF the LTTE had staged 9/11 when the Indian govt was in the terrorism exporting business, you would have seen the Indians being on the receiving end of US moral outrage--but of course the LTTE are more rational than the Al Qaeda whackos and didn`t really have any reason to attack the US.

Fuzair #158
There are two essential differences:
1. The Indian Army undertook (and failed) to disarm the LTTE and lost more than a thousand troops doing so.

2. Pakistani establishment lies and the jihad it lies about it are not confined to Kashmir, both the lies and the jihad have much larger international ramifications, so its either very foolhardy and/or megalomaniacal.

http://www.business2.com/articles/mag/0,1640,39717,FF.html?ref=cnet

``...When Musharraf`s spokesman, Maj. Gen. Rashid Qureshi, told FORTUNE that ``before Sept. 11, I for one had not heard of al Qaeda`` and that he was ``quite sure`` Musharraf hadn`t either, he must have conveniently forgotten that the U.S. had bombed al Qaeda targets in Afghanistan in 1998...``

Sadna (and other Indians)

Don`t forget, the Indians were supporting the LTTE in their (justified) grievances and (unjustified) terrorist acts against the Sri Lankan government and people. India`s hands are just as dirty as Pakistan`s. The only difference is that our`s are dirty now and your`s were dirty then. Just as we are now swearing our innocence, so were you swearing your`s then.

If India`s actions were justified then, are Pakistan`s now? If Pakistan`s actions make it deserving of ``terrorist state`` status now, was India a ``terrorist state`` then?

Re: Shammi #151

Given the way the MQM has tried to ethnically cleanse all non-Muhajirs (especially ethnic Sindhis, their new-found comrades) from Karachi and the type of Nazi-terror-state it ran there until they were hunted down in the streets, its a bit much hearing this coming out of ``Altaf Bhai.`` Its like hearing Vellupillai (sp?), the leader of the Tamil Tigers and ex-RAW operative, spouting off now about democracy and rule of law.

Presumably the Army has reached some sort of a modus vivendi with Altaf Hussain (who, after all, was created by the ISI as a counter to the JI in Karachi) in which each thinks that the other can be used and then conveniently discarded. Lets hope that after the ``referendum,`` the MQM is again disposed off as the mad dogs they are. The only regret I have is for the innocents who are bound to get caught in the cross-fire but, then again, innocents always suffer any way so why should this time be different?

Why are they contradicting Musharraf and maligning a struggle needlessly? Which foreign militants are they talking of, I just don`t understand.

http://www.indian-express.com/full_story.php?content_id=1282


PoK, Hurriyat leaders agree: end jehad

Muzamil Jaleel


Srinagar, April 20: There is an immediate need for complete withdrawal of foreign militants from Kashmir since jehad is tainting the “movement”, especially after September 11 and December 13, senior Hurriyat leader Abdul Gani Lone told former PoK president Sardar Abdul Qayoom Khan at a meeting in Dubai last week.

Khan now heads Pakistan’s Kashmir commiteee, appointed by General Pervez Musharraf after his January 12 speech.

Speaking to The Indian Express from London on his way to the US, Lone said that at their first-ever meeting, both he and Khan agreed that there’s ‘‘no scope for militancy in their struggle and a solution is only possible through negotiations and peaceful means.’’

Lone and former Hurriyat chief Mirwaiz Umar Farooq met Qayoom along with US-based Ghulam Nabi Fai (considered close to Jamat-e-Islami), Britain-based Nazir Geelani, Canada-based Mushtaq Geelani, former chief of Hurriyat (PoK wing) Yousuf Naseem and others.

‘There was a common realization that several things and strategies are needed to be reviewed to keep up with the changing times,’’ said Lone. ‘‘This movement has ceased to be the freedom struggle of Kashmiris. Let Kashmiris themselves take the driving seat.’’

Lone said: ‘‘(I told them) that it’s high time that jehadis should leave us alone. Their presence is detrimental to our struggle especially because they initiated their international jehadi agenda thus connecting Kashmir issue with terrorism,’’ he said.

‘‘There was a feeling that this diversion has only helped India’s argument that there is terrorism and not a freedom struggle going on in Kashmir.’’

He said that he was the first separatist leader who had welcomed the presence of foreign militants in Kashmir few years ago.

‘‘But when they started talking of unfurling their flag on Red Fort and White House, their activities began to hurt the interests of Kashmiris,’’ he said.

Lone, however, stressed that the meeting was not pre-planned. ‘‘It was a mere chance that I and Mirwaiz happened to be in Dubai. Khan took advantage of our presence and held this meeting,’’ he said.

‘‘But it was an important meet at this crucial juncture especially because the leaders from Kashmir often don’t get a chance to travel abroad and then meet leaders from across.’’

Lone said he and Mirwaiz had not consulted their colleagues before the meet. ‘‘We had not gone there on a Hurriyat mandate but whatever we discussed was in the interest of the suffering Kashmiri people,’’ he said.

Was the issue of Assembly elections on the Dubai agenda? ‘‘Elections are not a taboo for us,’’ said Lone. ‘‘We do talk and think about elections. It cannot be avoided...We are not against elections.

“But given the circumstances in Kashmir, it is going to be a farce. Even if Hurriyat decides to participate, which is highly unlikely, what is the guarantee that Farooq Abdullah will not rig the polls again and leave us high and dry?’’ he said.

Lone said that nobody can dispute that he was a moderate. ‘‘But see what the Government is doing to me and my party. My entire second-rung leadership is behind bars because Farooq knows that only people with moderate views are a real threat to him,’’ he said.

‘‘I have been personally attacked dozens of times and they withdrew my security. See what happened in Jammu.

“The Shiv Sena man who assaulted me has become a hero. He has six policemen as his personal guards because he enjoys full government patronage.’’

AUdio-VIdeo-RAdio # 150

``Allah ...``

Man, that was extremely offensive. If you consider yourself a Hindu, then there is no way you could not believe that Allah Ishwar Tero Naam. You are, in essence, saying that Ishwar is a goat. Translated thus, I hope you will see how uncouth your remark was. Making fun of religion is important, but only when that excercise is limited to those parts of religion that have proven to be harmful.

re: shammi # 151

Musharraf is too much of a Pakistani nationalist to be a willing participant in any scheme that will threaten Pakistan`s territorial integrity (in my cynical eyes, his only virtue). On the other hand, Altaf is too much a Mohajir nationalist to be bought off without substantial accommodation for Mohajirs. Can that accommodation be reached without involving other nationalities in a sustained national conversation? What is the strategic intent of these two Mohajir men? It will be interesting to read Pakistani commentators in days to come.

Shammi,

Constitution According to the 1940 Resolution is not that bad of an idea... it will create a federalist Pakistan ... which I personally support.

http://www.paknews.com/main.php?id=6&date1=2002-04-20

National Council for Minorities constituted

Updated on 2002-04-20 11:33:29



ISLAMABAD, April 20 (PNS): Federal Minister for Minorities, Culture, Sports, and Tourism Col. (Retd) S. K. Tresler has said that National Council for Minorities had been formed in which scholars of various religions would make collective efforts to create religious harmony in the country.

He was addressing a seminar on `Tolerance in Pakistan and Minorities Role` organised by the Ministry of Minorities Affair here in the auditorium of National Library on Friday.

He maintained that minorities had played a very vital role in Pakistan movement back in 1947 in which they struggled shoulders to shoulder with their Muslim brethren to carve out an independent state.

He regretted that culture of Pakistan does not allow the common man to take part in the nation building activities, as feudal lords had deprived them form their rights.

He underlined the need for giving equal opportunity to every citizen of the country in order to put the country on road towards progress.

Speaking on the occasion, Mehmood Ali, lifetime Federal Minister that Pakistan stressed the need to follow the footstep of Quid-I-Azam to over come the present difficulties.

``We need to create justice in our society so that every one can perform their duties with any fear for development of the country,`` he remarked.

Ghulam Murtaza Poya, a religious scholar, Behram Awari, Prof. Salamat Akhtar, Col. (Retd) K. M. Roy, Dr. Muhammad Anees along with others also addressed at the occasion and highlighted the need to understand the religious needs of each religion.

Ends

The apologists for dictatorships will do well to take note of the following words utterred by Altaf Hussain in a speech in Karachi yesterday:

`...We love Pakistan and want rights and autonomy within the boundaries of Pakistan. We don`t want independence, the people of Sindh would be free to approach the UN for self-determination if their demands were ignored...The people want supremacy of the parliament and provinces with full autonomous status. Whereas, the Parliament shall have the supremacy and provinces shall have full autonomous status, the Federation shall keep three subjects - Defence, Foreign Affairs and Currency - and the rest of the powers be vested in the provincial legislatures and governments. Under the 1940 resolution, the federation can keep Defence, Foreign Affairs and Currency. The people want a system in which the religious minorities and women should have equal rights. They want removal of all discriminatory policies,`` he said...``

During the speech, the participants were chanting slogans ``Aazadi``

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/apr2002-daily/20-04-2002/main/main4.htm

It appears as if the long exiled MQM leader has reached an unholy, ill-explained alliance with Gen. Musharraf, with both rubbing each other`s backs to promote their respective agendas. This expedient compromise has hardened the MQM`s position (they have called for virtual independence) in a manner that is eerily similar to Awami League`s 6-point program of the mid `60s.

shammisaab:

“What are the chickens that will come to roost as a result of this referendum? Every previous general who came to power through indirect means exacted a price. What price will this one exact?”

…. exactly….zia gave us bari tind, that idiot-par-excellence-rivaling-only-bush in the stupidity department….god knows who musharraf’s going to procreate….

Altaf seeks new constitution

By Habib Khan Ghori

KARACHI, April 19: The chief of Muttahida Qaumi Movement, Altaf Hussain, has said a new constitution should be framed in accordance with the spirit of 1940 resolution, in which provincial autonomy should be granted to all the federating units within the framework of the federation.

Speaking at a ``Sindh Solidarity Convention`` at Nishtar Park here on Friday, which turned out to be the largest-ever meeting held at the venue, Mr Hussain warned that if instead of paying attention to the resolutions adopted in this regard at the convention, the establishment opted for launching another operation, the people of Sindh would be justified in demanding the right of self-determination.

Referring to the issue of presidential referendum, the MQM chief said the coordination committee had left the decision to vote or otherwise to the people. He, however, added that if Gen Pervez Musharraf announced that provinces would be granted autonomy in accordance with the 1940 resolution, his vote would be for Gen Pervez Musharraf.

``Smaller provinces, particularly Sindh, have been facing exploitation since the last 54 years. Population of Sindh according to the census report is 23.28 per cent of the total population of the country but Sindh`s share to the national exchequer is 63 per cent as against the population of Punjab, which is 57 per cent of the total population while its share in the national revenue is only 27 per cent. The share of Punjab in the federal divisible pool is 57 per cent, while that of Sindh it is only 23.28 per cent. Even this 23 per cent share is not being given to Sindh honestly,`` he claimed and pointed out that not only that Sindh was not being paid its share, the province was also being deprived of its due water share, which was turning the fields into arid zones.

Mr Hussain asked how would the federation function in case Sindh stopped contributing its 63 per cent share and the country had only the shares of Punjab, NWFP and Balochistan. ``That is why I raised the slogan of Jiye Sindh as Sindh alone is meeting most of the expenses of the army, rangers and federation as the country could not function on the basis of 37 per cent revenue from the rest of the three provinces,`` he added.

Waving to a section of the crowd raising slogan of ``Azadi, Azadi`` on this occasion, the MQM leader said despite this ``we want Pakistan to grow stronger and prosper. We are neither enemy of the Punjab nor do we have hatred for our oppressed brothers in Punjab but we are opposed to the Punjabi establishment, feudals and Waderas. We want that a constitution assembly be set up to frame a new constitution in accordance with the 1940 resolution, ensuring full autonomy to the provinces as the massacre of Sindhis and Urdu-speaking people could not be allowed to continue.``

Referring to the Quaid-i-Azam`s speech of Aug 11, 1947, in the Constituent Assembly in which he had said that now when Pakistan had come into being all citizens would have full freedom of religion and have equal rights, Mr Hussain said if the MQM came into power all citizens would be treated equally and they would enjoy equal rights as Pakistani.

The MQM leader said the establishment should see reason and stop committing excesses against Sindh, give its due share of water and the NFC award and stop all projects against the interests of people of Sindh.

He said this convention had also negated the assessment of agencies which were of the opinion that the MQM had been eliminated by the operation and warned that in case another operation was launched against the party, they would take refuge in forests in Sindh where they could not pursue them.

The MQM chief said that the MQM was against terrorism, religious extremism and support the government policy against terrorism and its action against religious parties.

Pleading a policy of negotiation instead of seeking confrontation, he said that all issues, including Kashmir issue, could be resolved through peaceful means. He said the MQM would also like to have a European Union like grouping of the countries in the region including, Afghanistan, India, Iran, China, after the resolution of all bilateral issues peacefully as war was not the solution to any problem.

Mr Hussain also criticized the opposition parties and their role in the country`s politics.

Earlier, intellectual Ali Ahmad Brohi asked all the people living in Sindh to forget their differences and strive for the rights of Sindh. He said Sindh had been facing exploitation during the last 54 years and was being ruled from the Centre.

Syed Imdad Mohammed Shah said that we were not against the people of Punjab but the bureaucracy and the army which had taken over control of Sindh`s resources and deprived the people of their due share even in water.

Other speakers included Bhagat Arjundas, Bishop Dr Bashir R. Mal and Shafi Karnani, acting chairman of the Jiye Sindh Qaumi Mahaz.