Deja Vu

Prem #291 I would be pleased to agree with you when you write that panjabis tend to be much less implacable enemies as UPites. Unfortunately, I must beg to differ with this generalization. There are rotten apples to be found in the panjab as they are to be found in UP or any other corner of the world. They may speak with different accents, but some people carry grudges and others dont. Regardless of ethnicity. Or any other grouping. My wife`s lifelong friends from college in Pakistan have been UPites, for example, despite the fact that we are panjabis.

re: Romair # 289

``Pakistan was not just an ego-centric, overly-ambitious Jinnah, misleading a group of religiously misguided and fanatic people. The people themselves believed in the idea. And in my personal life, when I see that my previous generations migrated (even though they didn`t have to), and have never once doubted their decision, and when I see the vacuum of Indian Muslims in the echelons of the US IT industry, what other belief can I have but to support the creation of Pakistan.``

You are mixing up different arguments and engaging in post-hoc rationalizations. Let`s leave out Jinnah for a moment, so as not to touch on raw nerves. Let`s take up other issues -

1. You make a big deal about yourself. That is totally unjustified and has little explanatory power. In fact, what is surprising is that you even make that argument. Consider this -

You are comparing what you ARE with what you THINK (doesn`t matter how sure you are of your own beliefs) you WOULD HAVE BEEN in India. What do you base this view of what you would have been on? On your view of the ``conditions of Muslims`` of Muslims in India. That condition in your view is VERY BLEAK.

Do you see how irrational and silly that comparison is: you believe Muslims in India have no opportunities; naturally you then conclude you would have gotten nowhere (which may well be true, given the level of competition) in India, then you compare your achievements with your reaching nowhere in India.

You are deriving `rational` conclusions based on supposedly objective data when those data are directly a function of your own beliefs.

That is ABSURD.

2. Again, you are making judgements about partition by looking at your (or Pakistani military`s, if not Pakistani in general) view of ``condition of Muslims`` in India. Normally, a million nitwits make that argument (read Pakistani newspapers anyday to see what I mean), and may they live happily in their eternal dreamworld. But if you are attempting to enter into a `rational` dialogue you need to think clearly.

You can not break a panther`s legs and then judge how fast the panther can run. If you break all of the panther`s legs, then even a donkey will outrun this panther.

That is precisely what you guys did to the Muslim community in India. Most people who left were either those who were loaded with ill-gotten, unearned, blood-stained wealth or those who were professionally successful in India. This community left so it could walk into a world of entitlement, not competition. And NOW you compare the achievements of the offsprings of this generation with the offsprings of those who remained behind in India - an entirely different population to begin with.

3. But population heterogeneity is only one issue. Far more toxic has been the original sin of extreme communalization and a million murders that will take time to wash, national wounds that will heal slowly. While you in a religously cleansed ``Muslim`` Pakistan celebrate and break open champagne bottles (always behind closed doors, ofcourse) on your ``achievement,`` the relations between Hindus and Muslims suffered a body blow everywhere. When you create, propagate, and justify your actions on a hateful theory, you help spread a deadly virus (to be fair, the viral poisoning was not ENTIRELY your doing) that does not disappear by asking ``Hindus to go their temples, and Muslims to go their mosques -let`s all be brothers now.`` While you just didnt have enough Hindus left in Pakistan for them to demand their basic inalienable equal rights (or your as a people just didnt care enough for that to trouble your conscience), we Indians - Hindu and Muslim - had to deal with the poison. And NOW you make comparisons.

Well, now that I have vented my feelings, let me re-state the logical flaw in your argument:

You ingore the effect of the HUGE event in the form of Partition itself. This event had DIFFERENT psychological effects on two countries. In religiously cleansed Pakistan, where only a handful of Hindus were left, where Hindus were formally denied all access to power and all opportunity for growth in that power, people were enthused (for what I don`t know), but in India the Partition had a demoralizing effect. More importantly, the Two Nation Theory took what were fringe ideas present in EVERY society all the time, and tranformed them into AVERAGE world view of ordinary, otherwise very decent people. Thus the event of partition poisoned relationships and created suspicions on unprecedented levels.

How could Hindus ever respect or trust any Muslim who believed in a hateful theory? What many foolish Hindus failed to realize was that most Muslims who stayed back were precisely THOSE who DID NOT share that medieval belief, and more importantly, REFUSED to be suckered into it by their co-religionists selling a distant pipe dream. These Muslims have been, and are, as Indian as any other. But many Hindu Mahasabha type Hindus who themselves shared Muslim League`s views of Two Nations have been carrying on the work of partition, and that is what we in India need to face now.

Were ALL those who left for Pakistan religious fanatics and bigots. I realize that that was just not true. Yet, that does not make your comparisons any more valid.

In fact, if you extend that argument to include the possibility that at least Muslims who stayed back in India DID believe in TNT, then you obviously don`t expect them to do very well in a country of which they did not consider themselves a part. That will further weaken your comparisons of what is with what ``would have been.`` Luckily, I am convinced there were VERY FEW, if any, people of this kind.

I hope you will stop making those totally unjustifiable comparisons.

Harpreet # 284

For that ignorance, I must blame myself. For a long time all I knew of Pakistan was that they believed in something strange called Two Nation Theory, that they couldn`t live with Hindus. You would understand that that thought didn`t leave much of a good impression.

Certainly, I was quite a fool in this regard. Some serious thinking would have told me that the madness that followed partition would have consumed all rationality, leaving behind only fear, with people running for their lives.

I think Punjabis, who suffered the most, saw all this well, and understand it better than the rest of us, certainly better than UPites. My tentative theory that says that UPites tend to be much more dedicated, and much more implacable, religious fanatics and hateful bigots, than average Punjabis. The same applies to UPite Mohajjirs in Pakistan. In the states, this is the only group of Pakistanis with whom interaction has been difficult.

Harpreet #284 Actually my father (who is getting quite old now) would like to visit our ancestral village (Sassoli) once. For those of us born afterwards that place has very little meaning compared to the older generation who spent the rest of their lives in Pakistan but who kept with them loving memories of the place they left behind for the remainder of their lives.

Our home is still standing in that village (they even sent a picture to my father, as I mentioned once on chowk), and is occupied by a sikh family. I am glad that it was put to use, rather than being rendered desolate as you mention is the case with many muslim homes. My father has an open invitation to visit that village from these people. All that stands between him and that village is a few hundred miles of road journey, and a few million miles of political journey for our esteemed Governments of India and Pakistan.

Aamir #274: ``Romair has, on many occassions, highlighted his Kashmiri grandparent who `had to flee`. He never explained why. Kashmir`s status was undecided in Aug.`47, and there was no communal violence at all, especially in the Valley. I find it hard to believe that his Muslim grandparent was forced to flee -- by whom? Why``

I don`t think I ever stated that my grandparents, ``had to flee.`` If I did, then that is an error on my part. If I didn`t, then perhaps you are misreading my words.

My grandparents left Kashmir and India because they wanted to be a part of Pakistan. One of them was actually living in India, but had their home was in Pakistan`s Punjab. The other migrated a couple of years after the partition from Indian Kashmir into Pakistan Kashmir.

I don` think they were forced out by riots. They were well-off and well-connected enough to bypass any riots that were occuring. They were part of the upper-middle professional class in India.

However, despite having everything a, ``native`` could ask for in British India, they did decided to leave everything (literally) behind, including furnished homes, and move to Pakistan. They did this in extreme hurry, and ended up (literally) in shacks in Pakistan. And started all over.

The question is why did they do this?

It is obvious that they were willing to move many steps down on the social and economic ladder. It is quite possible they may never have had to face directly any riots, problems in India as Muslims. Yet they still migrated. They weren`t exceptionally religious either. So it couldn`t have been just a religious awakening. This is furthur substantiated by the fact that they encouraged their kids and grandkids to migrate to non-Muslim countries to study/live, if they desired.

They migrated because according to their calcuations they, and specifically their children, would be better off in Pakistan than in India. They took a short term loss (leaving their life`s earnings) for a long term gain (according to them).

Has their decision proven correct? There are two ways to check this:

I have tried to play the devil`s advocate with my grandparents and parents on the creation of Pakistan, on many occassions. They all criticize different things about Pakistan, all the time. The politicians are corrupt, the military is too ambitious, etc. etc. Once in a blue moon, they even make racist comments about certain ethnic groups in Pakistan, as well. They do not bad mouth their days in India, however. They have very fond memories of their childhoods there, and reminisce about their Hindu and Sikh childhood friends. My mother repeatedly describes her house in Kashmir, and is hell-bent on moving back into it someday, before she passes away.

But never once, have I heard them doubt the creation of Pakistan. And never once have I heard them say that their decision to leave behind (voluntarily in their case) their lives` earnings in India was wrong. Their faces light up when one discusses the creation of Pakistan.

The second point is to see how their next generations are doing in Pakistan. Would I have been better off as an Indian Muslim?

I have had two professions in my life, and have considered one or two others. Had I pursued my military career, and had enough competence, the highest ranks of the Pakistan military were open to me. As an Indian Muslim, my chances of joining the Indian military would have been very low, much less making it to the top. I belive only 3% of the Indian military is Muslim.

I then considered joining the civil services. The story is the same there. Very low percentage of Indian Muslims in Indian Civil Services.

I then ended up in the US IT industry. This industry is dominated by Hindu Indians. They own Silicon Valley. Yet, nearly every single South Asian Muslim I have met in this industry has been a Pakistani. Considering the fact that India has a higher literacy rate than Pakistan, it is way ahead of Pakistan in IT, and it has an equivalent number of Muslims as Pakistan, the number of Indian Muslims in the US IT industry should be many times that of Pakistanis. Yet Indian Muslims just a fraction of the Pakistanis.

I noticed the same ratios when I was in US colleges. The IT depts in univesities were flooded with Indian Hindus, yet there were no Indian Muslims.

Based on that, I have to say that my chances of making it in the US IT industry as an Indian Muslim would have been much lower than as a Pakistni. Had I changed my religion to Hinduism, and moved to India, my chances would be higher than they are now.

I could have been born in Srinigar, had my grandparents stayed behind. And we all know what is going on there.

This is not to throw dirt on India. Minorities aren`t doing to hot in Pakistan, either. Infact, until the BJP came along, Indian minorities (outside Kashmir) were better off than Pakistani minorities. And it maybe possible that Indian Muslims are just lazy (or they have been sidelined).

It is just to point out to Indians and explain, that they are misinformed about the motivations behind the creation of Pakistan. Pakistan was not just an ego-centric, overly-ambitious Jinnah, misleading a group of religiously misguided and fanatic people. The people themselves believed in the idea. And in my personal life, when I see that my previous generations migrated (even though they didn`t have to), and have never once doubted their decision, and when I see the vacuum of Indian Muslims in the echelons of the US IT industry, what other belief can I have but to support the creation of Pakistan.

I think Pakistanis respect the creation of India, and its independence. Similarly, Indians need to respect the creation of Pakistan, and consider it a correct occurence.

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Harpreet,

{{I am quite amazed that you had to come to Chowk to find out that not all the refugees westwards during partition moved because they thought they were going to a land of milk and honey where gold fell from the trees. It was a simple choice they faced, either move or end up as dead meat for most of them. The same was true for those moving eastwards. Maybe it is a Punjabi thing. We know the impulses of what happened in that conflagration.}}

Youre right! I think its because most Indians (other than Punjabis, Sindhis, Bengalis etc) didnt witness the horrors at the border, first hand. Thats why, our ``prejudices`` are based on what we hear.

After all, what is ``prejudice`` anyways...Prejudice is not a ``whiteman`s`` problem...its a HUMAN problem like greed, lust, hate etc etc If we dont have KNOWLEGE about a group of people, we fill in the blanks in our knowlege with preconcieved notions that are inherently false.

So the only ``pill`` for prejudice is knowlege. Romair is right, in that most Indians hardly know anything about Pakistan or Pakistanis. Pakistanis, I think, know a lot more about Indians (maybe cos of Bollywood). If it IS because of Bollywood, I hope they dont get a skewed idea of Indians:)

I want to ASSURE all Pakistanis that we dont break out into a frikking song & start dancing when we want to ``line marao`` a girl:)

tahmed,

{{the saying is if you see a sindhi and a snake, get the sindhi first.}}

haha..I heard that joke from a sindhi too..

The only people who really trust sindhis are sindhis only. They have a remarkable system of ``banking``. They lend money to each other...nobody knows what the interest rates are.

The most amazing part of that system is that NOTHING is put on paper..no contract, no nothing. It is done PURELY on trust. If a customer ``defaults`` on the loan, nobody goes & breaks his knees. What happens is that the person`s name becomes ``mud`` in their diaspora. Thats a worse fate for them than a broken knee cap...they DREAD a poor ``credit rating``...they call it ``izzat badnam hogaya``..no sindhi will ever do business with that person.

Thats how the whole sindhi community became rich in India. Gotta hand it to them, though.

shankar #253: ``Pakistan`s crap smells just as bad as India`s. I`ll say that to the sounds of violins!``

This is the unfortunate stance that most, if not all, Indian interactors adapt when something about India is being discussed. They do not just comment on India`s faults. When someone presents logic to them that is obvious, the answer is never, ``Yes, you are correct.`` The answer is well, ``Pakistan`s crap smells just as bad as India`s.``

This discussion is not about Pakistan`s crap. It is about India`s crap. If you want to have a discussion on Pakistan`s crap, we can do that as well, as a separate discussion. I have myself described Pakistan`s crap, from failed politics, to spineless judges, to ethnic violence, to ambitious generals, in great details.

For the time being, lets assume that Pakistan`s crap is not as bad as India`s. Let`s assume that Pakistan`s crap smells even much worse than India`s. Now let`s set the following ground rules, and get back to the original discussion, and figure out India`s crap:

1) This is a debate on India and its concepts and actions, and contradictions (or at least stances that seem contradictory to me). So kindly do not answer every question by pointing out that Pakistan is even worse (we have agreed, for the time being, that Pakistan is worse).

2) There is no need to get defensive. You have a tendency, like nearly all Indians on this site, to get defensive everytime someone tries to debate India. Maybe, it is because Indians consider this a Pakistani site, and feel that they are always being attacked. Rest assured, I have criticized, dissected, highlighted the faults of Pakistan in far more detail than anything I have ever said about India. I would be more than happy to highlight Pakistan`s crap, with you also. But not to justify India`s crap. 3) Currently, I am just curious, and am trying to figure out what Indians feel about certain Indian policies that to me seem contradictory. Kindly accept that they are contradictory, or explain why they are not. But do not state, ``So what if they are contradictory, Pakistan`s are even more contradictory.`` Let`s try to understand each other`s contradictions, rather than get into a pissing contest on whose policies are less contradictory. Hopefully you will be able to explain them, without getting defensive, and without attacking Pakistan.

So the questions I asked were:

1- Why would Indians throw tomatoes at you (as per your own admission, and easily seen on Chowk) for pointing out India`s human rights violations in Kashmir, while Pakistanis never throw tomatoes at me when I point out Pakistan`s mistakes in Bangladesh, or in Afghanistan, and other places (as seen on this board)?

2- Do you agree that most Pakistanis on this site argue for self-determination of Kashmir (and not annexation to Pakistan), while most Indians on this site argue for annexation of Kashmir to India?

3- Is their any contradiction in India assisting in supporting the Bangladeshi freedom struggle, while simultaneously suppressing the Kashmiri freedom struggle?

4- Why do Indians hate Jinnah so much? Is it primarily because he created Pakistan? Once again, if that is the reason, then why did India support Mujib when he created Bangladesh?

5- And most importantly, do Indians believe that the breakup of the Sub-Continent in 47, and the subsequent creation of Pakistan was correct, i.e. do they feel that Pakistan should have been created, or not created?

Let`s keep this discussion civil and un-emotional.

shankar #278 In pakistan sindhis are generally seen as simple village people,exploited by a handful of rich landlords. I guess they become city slickers after they move out of the evillage: i learnt about this many years ago when an indian colleague, who was himself a sindhi, assured me that in india the saying is if you see a sindhi and a snake, get the sindhi first.

The same goes for other people too- people of jullunder were, i am told, supposed to be very good hearted people: but Gen. Zia was from jullunder too and seemed to fit the stereotype of a snake quite well.

Shankar and Prem,

I am quite amazed that you had to come to Chowk to find out that not all the refugees westwards during partition moved because they thought they were going to a land of milk and honey where gold fell from the trees. It was a simple choice they faced, either move or end up as dead meat for most of them. The same was true for those moving eastwards. Maybe it is a Punjabi thing. We know the impulses of what happened in that conflagration.

Read ``Toba Tek Singh`` by Saadat Hassan Manto which might give you an insight.

One of my friends family were from Rawalpindi originally. So we tease her and call her a Pakistani sometimes. But while she has no particular feelings for Pakistan and identifies herself as Indian, coming from India, in reality her whole family since the dawn of time came from the land that now comprises Pakistan. For that reason she says she would like to see the place. What a tangled web, to hate and feel affinity for a piece of land simultaneously.

The icing on the cake of this all is that we are seeing this happen today before our very eyes with refugees in Gujarat. Except they dont have anywhere else to go to. India has learnt nothing and knows nothing.

Fuzair;

I am surprised you sound so shocked at the antipathy that those Sindhi`s felt towards Muslims. In my experience that is not an uncommon (though not a universal) feeling amongst the descendants of the refugees, on both sides.

If you want to hear some more black propaganda. I know of somebody (Sikh) who said he was amazed when he met, as a teenager, his first Pakistani who spoke Punjabi just like him. He said his chin literally hit the floor. He had been brought up by his family to view Pakistanis as Arabs, spawn of the devil, not really Punjabis at all, that kind of thing.

tahmed;

I could feel the pain in your post about your ancestral village. So you are a Jullundari just like me. I hope one day if you feel the desire, you get the chance to see your ancestral village in India.

There are still empty houses in my village that were not appropriated post partition for whatever reason. My village is near Phagwara. I was looking at these Muslim homes when I was there in March, they are derelict now. Its quite sad. Full of ghosts I reckon.

-h-

re: fawdog

{yeah our army is bad but your air force makes nepal`s air force like the Israeli Air Force go check Jane`s Defense Weekly india has the worst air force in the world...}

...fcuk the airforce, win a war first...

scout,

{{by the way, what`s this fascination with the Pakistani army?... you Indians are just jealous our army is better looking than your army. :)}}

No we`re just jealous that Pakistani WOMEN are better looking than most Indian women!:) OK?! We admit it. Too bad your paranoid, possessive men encase you in a blooming shuttlecock...killjoys!..hey whats the harm in just looking?!:)

Your military...nah..were just AMUSED how Pakistanis on Chowk boast about how great your army & those knights-in-shining-armor flyboys are. Jeeze...at least WIN a war first, then maybe you can boast..!!!:)

It would be amusing if we Indians boasted about our cricket or hockey team. Do we?! NO! ..we freeeely admit you KICK OUR BUTTS.

You know what the greatest asset of Indians is? we`re sooooo honest, humble & modest (grinning, ducking & running)...

fawad,

Beta, you are new to Chowk. If I were an alien from outer space & happened to scan Chowk on internet...I would think that some country called Pakistan has the best military in the world...the way your soldier boys (esp EX-soldier boys) boast about its prowess.

Thats what the British say about the French; ``they never won a bloomin` war in the 20th Century, but the buggers are damn proud of their military!``

Fuzair,

I`m not a Sindhi, but the majority of my innermost friend circle, by coincidence, were Sindhi. Virtually all Sindhis in India are hindus.

These guys were all born 8-10 yrs after Partition. Their parents came to India from Sindh as refugees. In Bombay, there are two suburbs, Ulhasnagar & Kalyan that are heavily populated by Sindhis from Pakistan. Virtually all of them had to FLEE in the middle of the night, from marauding muslim crowds in Sindh (guys..dont jump on me...thats what they say)...

I`m told, by my friends` parents (now if this is ``propaganda`` or not, I dont know) that most of them were quite wealthy & at least middle class...many of them professionals & college educated...in Pakistan. They had to leave it all & run with the clothes on their back.

Sindhis are also the butt of many jokes because they are fond of money:) Also, they are not the most HONEST of Indians:) Not that they have a bad character...they really believe the TAX system of socialist India is VERY VERY unfair. So they dont consider it an offense at all if they have black money. In fact, theyre proud of it!:) The joke is that they are`nt lamenting leaving Pakistan...They lament leaving all their MONEY behind in Pakistan:)

What I DO know, is that these people are incredibly enterprising. The started from virtually nothing in 47 & most of them are among the wealthiest Indians, today. Those Sindhis who fled from Pakistan to Singapore, Hong Kong & Lagos are multi-millionaires today.

These guys are some of the finest capitalists in the world. Even a Sindhi with just the basic amount of education is an incredibly good businessman. I think a business sense is ``hard wired`` in their genes. They dont really need an MBA:) If you ever go on a cruise & go shopping in the Carribean Islands; most of the shops are owned by Sindhis!

Tahmed,

I sincerely hope that when you went to the Bahamas, you didnt go to a Sindhi owned store to shop. Man, those guys can sweet talk an Eskimo into buying a freezer:) Even if you see only local salespeople in those stores, dont be too sure; there just might be a bloody Sindhi in the back office there munching on a pappad & counting his money:)

Most of my Sindhi friends from med school that came to the US with me, 20 yrs ago, are millionaires many times over. They used to put a part of their measly salary (that a resident makes) into buying stocks of funny sounding companies like Microsoft & Intel. Shute, theyre having the last laugh now!

Even when before the market headed south, they took their money out & were buying real estate. They give Gujjus a run for their money:)

Practice medicine? hah..thats just ``seed`` money for them..

The only reason bloody Sindhis dont make it on the Forbes list of billionaires is because they DONT want the IRS to know their REAL worth:)!

scout,

{{I beg to differ, how can one make such a decision when there is no knowledge of the new nation?}}

Evidently SOME muslims WANTED Pakistan, did`nt they?! I dont think it was hindus who wanted them to create Pakistan. Ergo, isnt it logical to ASSUME that muslims who migrated to Pakistan went there, because they WANTED to?!

However, thanks to you & tahmed, I`ve learnt that that necessarily was`nt true. Evidently, some muslims went there because they really didnt have a choice. So I freely admit my assumption was wrong!

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many mohajirs went to Pakistan because they wanted to, vs, those who didnt have a choice?...