On Hate

Dost-mittar # 470

Thank you sir for your kind consideration and

necessary action.

Your most obediently:))

dost-mittar #465

[Banjaara ji, if you are working for the ISI, India is in deep do-do :-). And if you are not, all Indian Chowkies should petition the Indian govt. to give you an honorary citizenship; if Zafar is aadha Hindu, you are teen-chauthai there!]

Bhai jaan,

Nasha pila ke girana tau sub ko aata hai

maza tau jab hai ke girtoN ko thaam le saqi

Won`t it be better to work for ISI and still get the honorary citizenship with your help :-)

Regards.

PS: Yes it was the same Prithvi Raj Chauhan.

re: shrinker

{Idiot..praising a religion isnt patronising...}

...it is when you know jackshit about it and parrot stuff you hear other people say just to win some lemme-kiss-your-behind points....

{& why`s your dick all tied up in knots if I feel Paki girls are good looking?}

...b.c. you propogate this myth that your filthy behind is representative of indians in general...

...now fcuk off and go think about why you couldn`t hack it as a real doctor...

hobbyt contd
`` Can you please refresh my memory about his comments and specifically, exactly what about the comments?``
Its amazing you donot recall. Read him at :

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2002-daily/10-05-2002/oped/o1.htm

He seems to insist that its religiously-sanctioned to look at the world as divided into Muslims and nonMuslims, implicitly as mutual adversaries.

hobbyt #462
`` Yes, in my opinion, Jihad is morally sound - a request, please do not bother to go into what Jihad means - we`ve done that and we are not talking about wars of conquest or conversion but of self defense and freedom.``

Can you tell me examples of where jihad has been a successful method of self defense and attaining freedom?

Also, it seems that you think armed jihad in far-off places is to be waged for self-defense/freedom of Muslims only and then, only against nonMuslims.

The thinking that any Muslim anywhere in the world is justified in waging armed action anywhere else in the world translates in real life into the self-imposed isolation of Muslims.

NonMuslims acquainted with this religiously-sanctioned choice, will respond by preventing the free movement of Muslims into their regions of influence. Perhaps some Muslim countries may do so too. Was it Dubai or Abu Dhabi which was refusing visas to Pakistanis till recently?

Muslims supporting armed jihad cannot justifiably ask for equal just treatment and resolution of political conflicts without undue force until they are willing to recognise the exactly similar claims of others.

Saxena,

{{in your pathetic attempt to appear PC, you become so patronizing it is unbelievable...}}

Idiot..praising a religion isnt patronising...

& why`s your dick all tied up in knots if I feel Paki girls are good looking? Jealous..Raveena?

``appear PC``? huhn?! whats that? speak in english, achoot kid

Prem # 458

``OK, now, Banjaara bhaiyaa, out with the truth....yeh maazra kya hai? :)``

Bhai maajra kuch bhi nahin.One of your countrymen

taunted us Pakistanis that we know nothing about India and Indians and that forced me to tell him

a thing or two about India.

Dost-Mittar # 459

Pa ji (punjabi wala:))

Sher da matlab eh vay:

One who has not experienced pain

Has no knowledge about the hurt

As far as Aalha Udal are concerned,they were two Rajput Brothers serving the last Mahoba Ruler

Raja Piramal in the 12th century AD. Prithvi Raj Chauhan attacked Mahoba in 1182 and these two brothers fought valiantly to safeguard their Raja

and died in the process.The court poet Jagnik Rao wrote an epic comprising 20,000 verses of their valour and it is known as Veer Kavya.Qutbuddin Aibak conquered Mahoba in 1203 and it became a part of Delhi Sultanate.The Aalha Udal is sung

all over UP by the Yadavs and kshatris and reflects more of a martial than musical essence

as is also observed in the Rajzia poetry in Persian and Arabic.

Regards.

Sadna

``If i am not mistaken, you are saying you are not against armed jihad in faroff places in principle( the theology behind armed jihad is sound), its just that you want the citizens of only a future prosperous egalitarian Pakistan to take it up.``

Yes, in my opinion, Jihad is morally sound - a request, please do not bother to go into what Jihad means - we`ve done that and we are not talking about wars of conquest or conversion but of self defense and freedom.

But if it justified, why not act now? because we must first build a consensus and secondly a Pakistan populated by a more educated population, may wish to engage the entire issue differently.

``Does this condition you are adding on have basis in theology or its your personal opinion?``

I can`t speak of theology except to offer an opinion.

``And just how would you decide when the requisite amount of Liberty, equality and education has been reached to make a consensus on armed jihad acceptable?``

society can only do so after discussion, debate, awareness of the implications of action - followed by more debate and discussion - In any society in which Liberty is a value, grows the awareness, that it does not stand alone and that if it can be threatened in one place, it will be threatened in another. A more Egalitarian society, not an ``equal`` society -no communist rubbish, please - we can work to build a more egalitarian society - the day it becomes an ``equal `` society - Liberty will have been extinguished.

``You havenot replied about his comments on the Muslim/nonMuslim division``

Can you please refresh my memory about his comments and specifically, exactly what about the comments?

re: fawad

{regardless of what you say economically the pakistanis are better off, the average pakistani is not starving.}

that my friend is no longer true..india`s per capita is now higher than pakistan`s...the average pakistani is poorer than the average indian...stop deluding yourselves...

hey shank i agree with you pakistan aint paradise but neither is india and how dare you say we all bear some collective responsisbility ...............regardless of what you say economically the pakistanis are better off, the average pakistani is not starving............many many muslims moved up when the hindus left....hindusim is ripe in racism castism and violent tendencies as are all systems etc etc but hindus arent responsible i dont hold you respinsible for gujrat so you shouldnt hold me responsible for kashmir ....so spare us the anti muslim diatribe

Akash,

Man, we ought to launch a full-scale investigation - how on earth does Banjaara know so much about India?!

OK, now, Banjaara bhaiyaa, out with the truth....yeh maazra kya hai? :)

Also, Banjaara, that little saying/ditty was among the favorite wisecracks of my grandmother...You reminded me of days long gone by...

hobbyt #455
``Were Pakistan a country that was overwhelmingly egalitarian in the opportunities, the life chances, it enables her citizens to have, were it`s citizens among the most highly educated in the world, were there a consensus that the Liberty and equality of Pakistanis and Muslims better served by accepting the sacrifices in ``far off places`` - such a difference in positions would be meaningless. On this issue, at this time, I tend to agree with the General.``

If i am not mistaken, you are saying you are not against armed jihad in faroff places in principle( the theology behind armed jihad is sound), its just that you want the citizens of only a future prosperous egalitarian Pakistan to take it up. Does this condition you are adding on have basis in theology or its your personal opinion?

And just how would you decide when the requisite amount of Liberty, equality and education has been reached to make a consensus on armed jihad acceptable?

You havenot replied about his comments on the Muslim/nonMuslim division

Banjara

Man, you just reminded me of the blood curdling way the story of valor of Alha-Udal is sung in UP. Alha is sung not only among Yadavas but also Rajputs. I believe these Alha-Udal were Bundelkhandi Rajputs. I dont remember the lyrics of Alha-Udal `coz I moved out of the village when I was young. But I still have faint memories of its recitation. One such scene is etched indelibly into my mind- that wonderful recitation of that person in chaupal that turned the whole crowd crazy. It was indescribable.

Sadna

The author of the article from which you have quoted is one of the great young intellectuals to come out of Pakistan in the recent past. He is a man of wide breadth of learning and intellectual endeavor - learned, young, accomplished, a scientist and a religious scholar and I like to think that I am his friend.

On Shandana`s board, I have posted a piece, actually several pieces, about the ``religiosity of emulation`` - I invite you to read them and comment - also my opinion of where the awakening of women in Muslim/Islamic society stands and what is required to invigorate this awakening.

The author of the article you have posted has taken a position against the kind of analysis and interpretation I find compelling. I am be wrong or perhaps he is wrong or we may be both wrong - however; it is clear to me, that we must be conscious that we are not operating in the framework of a single intellectual concept - and while one may not have the the right to issue religious edicts, it does not necessarily follow that the ideas or opinions one holds or expresses, are by that virtue, invalid, incorrect or just plain ``no damn good.``

In the article you quoted, both the author and the General, are agreed on doing the ``good`` - but choose to describe that ``good`` in different terms, reflecting different priorities. Were Pakistan a country that was overwhelmingly egalitarian in the opportunities, the life chances, it enables her citizens to have, were it`s citizens among the most highly educated in the world, were there a consensus that the Liberty and equality of Pakistanis and Muslims better served by accepting the sacrifices in ``far off places`` - such a difference in positions would be meaningless. On this issue, at this time, I tend to agree with the General.

BTW Sadna, also on Shandana`s board I have posted an article from the ``Hindu`` newspaper, written by an Indian foreign service officer - please comment - I think it is most pertinent, events will soon come to a head and the implications are horrific.

Prem # 447

``(not sure about you - because your knowledge of India and Hinduism is truly impressive).``

Jaa ke goR na jai bewaee

Oo ka jaane peeR paraee

Regards.

Prem

``It`s like this, hobbty: there is no THEORETICAL or PRACTICAL reason to believe that the missing X variable is NOT orthogonal to the included X variables. That means the parameter estimates are UNBIASED.``

Rubbish! You are not being asked to believe anything - you are being encouraged to include pertinent factors in the data to assess your conclusion.

The premise was that Brahmins give up their caste ID quicker than other lower castes - What`s being measured? The rate/speed at which respondents would give up their caste ID as Brahmins? how do we measure that if they become aware of the querry at different times?

Had all the respondents become aware of the question at the same time - we could then say, based on our data - such a premise is unsupportable - however; this was not the case and clearly, the conclusion you have reached is unsupportable by the data.

Shankar

Indeed, as Muslims, especially in Pakistan, we have failed ourselves - but a tremendous silver lining in included in this soul searching - success or failure is not the ultimate in the quest to seek meaning as a Muslim, in my opinion, it is being conscious of striving, struggling, to continue to seek meaning as a Muslim.

When it comes to the question of caste or any question of conscience - one`s failure, regardless of religion - must never infuse a paraylsis, or abandonment of conscience. Because one has been unable to live or create a more egalitarian, as opposed to less egalitarian society - does not mean that one shall cease to confront the evil of caste.

The response of so many Hindus and Indians has been to say ``well, what about you in Pakistan or what about you as Muslims`` - I think such a response misses the point of the discussion, which was caste, and it is an attempt to avoid the discussion by shifting attention elsewhere -Whenever such an attempt is made by persons who begin to feel insecure or defensive - if one`s interlocutor(s) had a malevolent intent, they would indeed be gratified - it ensures that the opposition remains, at it`s core, weak and empty. You decide whether that is to be the course of your choosing.