On Hate

re: prem

...your efforts to make a point to hobbyty the religious retard are noble, but going around asking people sick caste questions is well, sick...there are enough small-minded indian pigs living in america and england who are still choking on regionalism and casteism...don`t encourage it...never in india was i asked about caste or whether i was gujju, punjabi, sindhi, etc...

re: shrinker #48

...in your pathetic attempt to appear PC, you become so patronizing it is unbelievable...

hobbyt, anyone

Since we are talking caste divisions being evil, and also been talking of a world view divided by religions being evil, can anyone explain whether the views of this person are theologically/religiously authentic:


http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2002-daily/10-05-2002/oped/o1.htm

Re Muslim/nonMuslim division:

``...I asked the reader to tell me what he meant by this label. He said that you see the world consisting of Muslims and non-Muslims and that my writings smack of a phobia and bias against the West. I reminded him of a recent incarnation of West`s own attitude toward Islam and Muslims -- this time expressed by none other than the President of the United States of America: ``You are either with us or against us.`` I also mentioned a number of Qur`aanic verses that clearly state that there are people, nations and tribes who are adherents of Truth (al-Haqq) and those who are against the Truth. In fact, the Qur`aan also mentions a party of Allah and a party against Allah. I quoted several ahadith of the Prophet of Islam in which he has mentioned that those who follow the non-believers in their ways are, in fact, among them.

This was too much for him. He retorted by stating: ``here you go again. You are un-curable.`` My next question to him was: ``Do you believe in the two prime sources of Islam from which I derive my worldview?`` He said, ``as a Muslim, I do believe in the Qur`aan and Sunnah but not in your interpretation.`` I told him that I was not even interpreting these sources; I was just quoting them. This brought us to a dead end...``


Re armed jihad :


``..According to my knowledge, our military academies do not teach any of these subjects. But what is worse, while expressing his complete adherence to the teachings of Islam, the [Punjab] governor said, ``it wouldn`t be a wise idea to wage jihad in far off places. It is not the right thing to send our youth to Chechnya or Eritrea for participating in jihad. We have a lot of frontiers to defend back home. Instead, the youth should be educated and engaged in more constructive and rewarding jobs, which, in turn, contribute to the progress of the country.``

Here we have a retired general, negating all Islamic teachings and history, issuing a religious decree without any qualifications, preaching things totally foreign to Islam. The Prophet of Islam had waged a relentless jihad against the Arab tribes who lived far away from Madinah. Just a day after the death of the Prophet of Islam, Abu Bakr (RA) sent out the Muslim army under the command of Usama bin Zayd to a place that was far away from Madina and he did this at a time when several false prophets were emerging and there was a great danger of tribal revolt against the nascent Islamic state. But a retired army general negates all of this and wishes to turn the ``youth toward more rewarding jobs``. And all of this in a state that still claims to be the ``Islamic Republic of Pakistan``!..``

``.. But the retired general, who issued the decree, ignores all of this. The youth of Pakistan, he says, should be employed in more rewarding jobs while their brethren in faith are being killed and their dead bodies are being savagely treated next door.

These new muftis are the victims of self-delusion. They have become prey to an engineered version of Islam that is being relentlessly forced on the Muslim world. In this new construction, most of the basic truths of Islam have been inverted. Along with this corruption, there has emerged a fabricated social reality, equally skewed....``


Who is more theologically sound, the author or the Punjab governor(who is the author says is unqualified to issue religious edicts?)?

An interview with Pakistani intellectual and leftist Tariq Ali

www.asiapacificforum.org

hobbyty,

{{``is it fair for me to proclaim that ``Islam is morally neutered by sect?!``

I think that`s a personal judgement - If you think that what it means - who amn I to object.}}

Thankyou for the short reply. For once, I could understand you.

No, I dont believe Islam is ``morally neutered``. That would be a very very unfair conclusion to make. I believe Islam is a great religion & the Prophet was one of the greatest men who walked on this earth, in the past millenium.

It is many of his overzealous followers who have betrayed him & Islam. The irony is that the ones who have spat on his face are the same guys who thump the Koran on their chests & wear Islam on their sleeves.

There has always been a great debate among muslims about ``who is a TRUE muslim?!`` It is my personal opinion that those who have interpreted Allah`s word in the Koran in an extremely narrow way, without giving any leeway to changing societal attitudes towards ``morality``, the passage of time, the ``shrinking`` of the world (where people of different faiths interact more closely than ever) have hijacked Islam & are destroying the good name of the religion.

Islam is a truely egalitarian religion which emphasises love, respect, tolerence & peace above anything else. Alas, take a look at Islamic countries, in general, today. For the sake of proving my point, take a look at Islamic Republic of Pakistan (other countries with Islamic majorities are, more or less, similar).

Is Pakistan:

1)egalitarian?: NO! There are ``classes`` & ``sects`` (you may not call them castes)..but for all practical purposes they are no different. The rich feudals & powerful military exploit the poor.

How many feudals will marry their children to their nauker`s children?! For that matter, how many middle class Pakistanis arrange a nikkah between their children & their servant`s children?!

2)Respectful of others?: NO! Sunnis & Shias kill each other..even places of worship are targetted in killing! Ofcourse, its easier to blame a ``foreign hand`` than taking personal responsibility.

3)Tolerant?: NO! Any group that DARES interpret Islam in their own way are EXCOMMUNICATED! Case in point, Ahmedias! Anybody who DARES criticise the Prophet is sentenced to death for blasphemy!

4) Peaceful?: NO! Murders, rapes, robberies, dacoiteries, terrorism are JUST as prevelant in Pakistan as in idol-worshipping Hindu majority India! In fact, internal Pakistani law & order situation is a JOKE!

Sometimes I wonder what GOOD has the PEFRECT word of God done for muslims...as a society?! Maybe, as individuals, it has enriched your spirituality..I cant argue with that. But dont you think, as a society, you ALL bear some COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY?!

I`ll be the first one to admit that we hindus are just as bad...maybe worse.. But, you see, we HAVENT had the benefit of recieving the PERFECT word of god!

Whats YOUR excuse, O pious muslims of this world?!

Seems to me, Allah gave you all the answers, before hand, then HE gave an ``open book`` exam. YOU STILL FAILED HIM, as a society!!! What the HELL good has all the wisdom of the PERFECT word of God done for Pakistan as a country, or society?!

You are surrounded by Islam, but you still argue what a TRUE muslim is! The same Islam has produced very decent people like tahmed & scout & absolute criminals like OBL. So, as a society, dont you think Islam has ever entered your souls? Sometimes I think Allah will look at us kafirs more kindly on Judgement Day. At least, we dont know any better! But you MUSLIM societies...fail an exam even after knowing the answers!!..

yaar..kuch to sharam karo!

shankar, dost-mittarji, sridhar

Thanks guys. Not sure if all this is water off a duck`s back, but one tries...One likes the pond; so one`s gotta deal with the occasional oily duck sometimes.

Zafar Mian

he he...my apologies! Aur bhi mauqe milenge iss haseen daur mein...:)

arjun_m

Hear ye, hear ye! Included you in that sorry list of brahmins in a bekaar attempt to bolster hobbyty`s hokey hypotheses. Ofcourse his delusions found no legs even then. But will my bending over backwards to do him this gentle favor keep hobbyty from complaining? Noooooo....isse kahte hain chori aur phir seena zori.

Hobbyty

I am sorry but your objections do not have any validity.

OBJECTION 1: Different people could have read my call at different times. Because I did not include this variable, my results are not valid.

Hmmm...someone clearly hasn`t analyzed much real data, certainly not very competently. Where should I begin to explain the basics of data analysis?...It`s like this, hobbty: there is no THEORETICAL or PRACTICAL reason to believe that the missing X variable is NOT orthogonal to the included X variables. That means the parameter estimates are UNBIASED.

sumjhe bade bhai?

OBJECTION 2: ``Was the encouragement I offered Prem less than or greater than or equal to what prem offered other Hindu Indians? how do we gauge it - lets agree that it was equal.``

Agreement is good, but not so soon, hobbytyji. And although this is not critical to our conclusions, let`s take at our respective ``encouragements:``

Your ``encouragement`` to me -

* * * * * * * * * *BEGIN * * * * * * * * * * * *

Reply Scout # 429

“how dare you question my identity?”

I wouldn’t dare…

(Btw, have I mentioned that I’m a Sunni Falasha of Chitpawan Brahmin/Syed background? Not that these things matter to me, of course…)

re: shankar # 438

I hear you. I have witnessed the suffering caused by the system of caste from close quarters, and from both pro- and anti- brahmin persepectives.

I once wrote a post for chowk describing how some older people in my own family discriminated against a dalit friend of mine (it was partly in homage to this friend that I had earlier picked the nick eklavya). That memory still rankles deep inside me.

Although not nearly as much as in South, things are changing in the North as well. Mayawati is our Chief Minister for the third time. This is all for the good, although it does cause a great deal of unhappiness sometimes.

Once my father had a dalit IAS officer boss. For reasons best known to himself (I have my suspicions. My father must have made some thoughtless comments - he is no better than me, in that respect), he turned my father`s life upside down for years. How many times our family invited this officer home just to placate him! The basta *d would come, eat to his heart`s content, and still not change his behavior :)

Now I can smile about it, but in those days, I used to feel a deep black rage at the very thought of this guy. I didn`t mind serving him food, I just detested his smirk. I even sent him an anonymous death threat once! LOL...not sure if it ever reached him.

These personal experiences apart, on balance, I would still prefer not to be a dalit, at least in UP. UP has got MILES to go before it can be counted among the civilized places on earth-free from discrimination of man against man.

re: sadna # 441

Thanks for that link. I noticed they sell a CD too, which I will try to get.

The funny thing is that I have heard Aallha sung ONLY ONCE in my entire life; and that too, when I was very very young. That one experience has left an idelible impression on my mind. There is nothing quite like Aallha in any other form of music I ever heard.

``is it fair for me to proclaim that ``Islam is morally neutered by sect?!``

I think that`s a personal judgement - If you think that what it means - who amn I to object.

``You shameless SOB, when you point one finger at us, there are 3 more pointing back at you!!``

GROUP THINK - you decide how healthy, appealing or convincing that is

re: shanka `s diatribe

Shanka in pakistan there are reserved seats for underrepresented classes too namely afghanis , hindus kashmiris too.....i guess the reserved seats for the dalits are a form of affirmative action...in america a black american or a spanish person needs a 2.5 and a 24 on his MCATs and he`ll get into medical school does this mean that blacks and spanish people are set????? hardly....look at %age of dalit med grads nationwide id still say it would be absymall....are there abuses of affirmative action? yes.....i knew a blond haired egyptian guy who applied to Howard Med on an african american basis if that isnt abuse i dont know what is..............as per the killing of shia doctors this is because of the terrorism of SSP which the govt has condemned and most mainstream parties have condemned ...................but no province in pakistan colludes with extremist groups in the genocide of minorities as in india..........the murder of shias in pakistan is done by hardline extremist groups it is not wholescale and there are no such thing as shia sunni riots......whereas in india this is not the case............well lets leave hinduism and islam out of this

Prem #436
`they only see what they want to see`. The whole 3/4D space needs to be distorted to accomodate a single point extrapolation..

`` Being an optimist is sometimes a tough job.``

Needless to say, the patience and optimism of Zafar, dost-mittar, shammi, yourself and others in imparting cartesian geometry is awe-inspiring. I must say hobbyt is generally patient too :)

Banjaara#419, Prem #426
Singing ballads of Alha Udal seem to be rather widespread in UP/MP. Where my family comes from (Agra/Gwalior) its apparently a wellknown tradition. Here is one link to a Bundelkhandi Aalha tradition which is quite different in singing style and perhaps words too:

http://www.beatofindia.com/forms/aalha.htm

The original website seems to have quite a collection of folk songs from many regions:
http://www.beatofindia.com/mainpages/forms.htm

Banjaara, I can only add two lines randomly remembered in my family from it:

Alha Udal bade ladaaiya
Unki maar sahi na jaaye
..
shagun vichare baaman baniya
jo sir-dhar-mohar vivahan jaa`nye
shagun vichare hum ka kshatri
jo raN chaDhke loh chabaa`nye
..

Prem

Amusing post but flawed study:

How do you justify the conclusions, when you do not account for the fact that the respondents did not become aware of the querry at the same time?

on the other hand we have one bit of data that we can rely on, when asked your caste, you responded immediately.

Prem,

I came to this ``referendum`` late...heheh, seems like I missed out on some fun. BTW, are you trying to prove a point to Prof Hobbs? Dont bother, the man is TOTALLY prejudiced. No matter what you say, he`ll stick to his guns. If you try & debate with him, he ``accuses`` you of being ``defensive``. Evidently, he thinks he`s God & he`s always right & he wonders why we get annoyed by him?!.

Personally, I wish I WAS``NT brahmin. I cursed my fate that I was born into a brahmin household & wrote an article on Chowk re the reverse discrimination I`ve personally experienced in India. Ofcourse, many sanctimonious Indians dissed me for complaining. They felt that because of the ``sins of my ancestors``, I should happily accept my lot in life.

Let me stick my neck out & make an assumption. If Shridhar lived in Tamil Nadu all his life, he would have faced the brunt of ``reverse discrimination`` there. Shridhar, I`d be very interested in knowing if my assumption is correct.

One of my uncles works for a Govt agency in India (the equivalent to the FDA in the US). One day, he & a few of his coworkers were in the office cafeteria having lunch. He cracked a joke about dalits. What he did`nt realise was that one of his coworkers was a dalit. This man lodged an official complaint.

This was about 10 years ago. My uncle said it was the WORST mistake in his life! He had to go through several ``official`` inquisitions. He has`nt been given a promotion because it is now an official part of his personnel record. What he found, in retrospect, was that this coworker was competing for the same promotion as he was. All the other coworkers who were present were officially subpoened for the inquiries & had to testify under oath! Even when they all testified that my uncle just said it jokingly, it was considered politically incorrect, because there is a ``zero tolerence`` policy in govt.

So, if you work in a govt job in India, you have to be VERY CAREFUL what you say, even in jest, otherwise you`re TOAST! Thats how much power the dalits have today. If you apply to any college run by the govt (most are)...fully 25-33% of seats are reserved for ``backward classes``. This policy has been going on for several decades. I graduated from medical college about 25 yrs ago & the reservation system was in full force even then...not just in getting admission in medical college...EVEN after you get your MBBS degree, 1/3rd of the post-graduate houseposts (residency)-are reserved for dalits!

So, atLEAST for the past 30 yrs or so, dalits have been given an unprecedented opportunity to advance themselves...not on merit, but because they had the GOOD fortune to be born in a ``lower`` caste household. All these guys now are prominent physicians & specialist consultants in Bombay. All they had to do was SCRAPE through their exams!

Prominent shia doctors are being ASSASINATED in Karachi & their murderers are hardly ever caught! Jesus Christ!! If dalit doctors ever got assassinated like that in Bombay(or ANYWHERE in India), there will be such a HUGE hue & cry, that it could bring ANY govt down!!

Ofcourse if that EVER happened, the good Prof Hobbs will jump up & down and sanctimoniously proclaim how ``Hinduism is morally neutered by caste!``

Hey professor sahib?! If shia doctors are murdered in COLD BLOOD in Pakistan , is it fair for me to proclaim that ``Islam is morally neutered by sect?!`` You shameless SOB, when you point one finger at us, there are 3 more pointing back at you!!

A GREAT STEP TOWARDS A MORE EQUITABLE HINDU SOCIETY

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/080502/detnat01.asp

Dalits eye new rites in UP...

Tarannum Manjul

(Lucknow, May 7)





In a few days from now, another - the last and most decisive - bastion of the Hindu upper castes is set to fall in Uttar Pradesh. With the graduation of the first batch of curriculum-trained priests in the state, several Dalit pundits will be ready to offer their services for the entire range of traditional Hindu rites.

The class of 2002 in the UP Sanskrit Sansthan`s paurohitya (priesthood) course includes several Dalit and other non-Brahmin students. The three-month course that was started in February, aimed at training students in the range of karmakand rites from mundan and vivah sanskar (marriage) to vrats (fasts) and tyohar (festivals).

The students have been trained by priests who were picked from a large pool of Sanskrit scholars in the state.

The scholars were given extensive training before being asked to fan out in the districts to impart their knowledge to priesthood-hopefuls. With the course now nearing completion almost everywhere, lists of successful trainees have begun to come in - they will receive certificates, and will be recognised as `registered pundits` qualified to perform karmakand rites.

re: sadna # 424

All of us see the world around us in our idiosyncratic ways. In Hobbyty`s worldview, caste is India and India is caste; forever the twain shall remain one. It is fixed view, frozen in time, subject to no known laws of nature.

You, I, dost-mitar, shammi (zafarbhai is a particularly favorite victim) have all been through the mind-breaking logical merry-go-round with him, all to no avail. Faced with this worldview, what can one do?

I am hoping that an analysis of the raw objectivity (or the lack thereof) of his statements might make a tiny dent. This is a time-consuming excercise, one I would normally avoid. Yet, the unrelenting Niagara of hobbyty`s opaque words (not to mention their utter unreality and often brazen immorality) drives one to make one last attempt...

Being an optimist is sometimes a tough job.