On Hate

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re:Reply #: 422

Zafar,

Time was when one could spot a TamBram by his/her name. Names like Shanbhgambal or Pushpavalli were typically brahmin names. These names were usually highly sanskritised. Then in the 60s onwards (i think), a lot of these names were inspired by the north indian names. We have now Manoj, Harish, Ritika, Shreya etc as names of TamBrams. The issue is further complicated by the fact that even non-brahmins have sanskritised names now. It is difficult to make an intelligent guess as to the caste of a person from his/her name alone.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 420

Prem,

Excellent analysis. Of course some confounding factors would be: how soon the respondent read your request to identify his/her caste. Also, it is a fact that numerically, brahmins are a minority. The results reflect as such. Still, a great analysis. I hope hobbyty is careful in future.

Sridhar

Chacha Hobby

``As for me, I think caste is - not bad, but evil! and it shames me that persons still find caste affiliation relevent.

``

Dont worry Chacha Hobby. We dont take no nonsense from anybody, be it Brahmin, Rajput or Vaishya/bania. Brahmins love to talk and eat. The village pundits will put even Texans to shame with their obesity(Prem may be an exception). Some of the brahmins are truly intellectual while most of the others try to pass themselves as intellectuals. Aheers( yadavas, gurjars etc) dont make a pretense of intellectualism. There is a simple but effective philosophy that we follow. Aheer talks to his opponent patiently for the first time, next time he lets his ``laathee`` do all the talking. A laathee blow is just enough to bring the adversary to his senses and yet not fatal. A lathee is a very effective weapon to resist injustice, while still being relatively ``peaceful and non-violent``. May be if you guys replace your Kalashnikov culture by our laathee culture, Pakistan may become paradise.

PS Sorry if I hurt the sentiments of anyone by generalisation.

Zafar #421,

how dare you question my identity?

Zafar Al-Talib

get real - you are not accountiung for govt regs against discrimination - these regs have to be broad but while they are broad, they do not account for the kinds of problems I referred to.

Women soldiers - rape as a weapon of war and terror - generally is used against women.

Can just please be real for second - for how many male soldiers is rape a concern - whereas it is most definitely a concern for women soldiers.

What is ``lower caste politics``? how does it work? how is different from other types? I`m not trying to irritate you - I don`t know and want to know what it is.

Seems we are stuck on is caste unique or not and disagree - OK -

Prem

An amusing but poorly constructed study - I request you restructure the study and reorganize the data correctly and then reevaluate the validity of your conclusions:

Item 1) if we were to assert that your conclusions are correct - how will we account for the fact that different posters became aware of the querry at different times - if they had all become aware of the querry at the same time and then decided to out their caste affiliation, we could say that given equal encouragements at the same time, Brahmins do not demonstrate an ease with giving up their caste affiliation. Yet the the exact opposite has been show with data available - If one were to divide the data by querrys - that is one for me and one for you -

you, Brahmin, responded immediately to my querry -Seems to me that data do not suggest your conclusion. I think that even as some brahmin poo poo the notion of caste consciousness, they do so with realization that they are on the top of the pecking order.

item 2 ``Did Brahmins reveal their caste because they faced less encouragement``

Was the encouragement I offered Prem less than or greater than or equal to what prem offered other Hindu Indians? how do we gauge it - lets agree that it was equal - how do again account for the possibility that the Hindu indian posters became aware of this querry, this encouragement at the same time?

And make up your minds - you want to be referred to as Hindus or Indians?

re: banjaara # 419

Jesus, banjaara bhaiyaa!

I have been searching for words to that Aallha myself. I checked around to see if anybody brought out any CD or something....NO success.

Anybody knows? Please help.

Prem #420
(Shrimati Lajwanti, zara do minute udhar moonh pher lijiye, aur khabardaar rona shuru kiya tho)

`` Part 2: The level/kind of ``encouragement`` required by different Hindus to reveal their caste affliations.``

Prem, I have had an extended discussion on caste with hobbyt on at least 2-3 occasions in the past. For this reason, I skipped reading hobbyt`s original assertion #348, and didnot reply even when Stuka brought it up.

Kindly take this `wassa point?` factor into account for not mentioning my caste origins until you asked, in your praiseworthy and painstakingly exact analysis. At this time, I think this makes hobbyt`s hypothesis more wrong, but you are the boss.

Contrary to others experiences, I didnot know `my` caste until I was in the first/second year of college(I had to check with my mom when I was asked by someone what it was).

hobbyt #416
``As for me, I think caste is - not bad, but evil! and it shames me that persons still find caste affiliation relevent.``

Hatred of Hindus and hypocrisy strikes again(hhh syndrome). What the heck were self-righteous types like hobbyt doing when Pakistani Army was pitting Pashtuns against Tajiks and Uzbeks for the last 20+ years?

Why do people still claim allegiance to clans like Afridi and Yusufzai and have surnames such as Shah, etc? Why were tribal allegiances so relevant to Pakistanis? Do Pakistani Muslims like hobbyt not have a conscience that says divisions and wars based on tribes and ethnicities are evil?

I am very curious, why was Musharraf declared a Syed before the referendum, even on chowk?

Reply Hobbyty # 413

“Zafar, I regret your unwillingness to tackle the issue”

Hobbyty, did you go to school to learn how to be this irritating or is a gift from God? If school, please share the address with us so we can all go and learn. If a gift from Duniya Ke Maalik…I don’t know whether to congratulate you or commiserate.

“The position is not that men and women should not have or do not have rights as human beings - human rights - the issue is how do we understand this given obvious differences between them - eg. A position is open, it requires a physical strength - the employer does not think a woman can handle it - but hires the woman anyway (govt reg.) then it turn out that it is too physical for the woman”

Alright, let’s go through this example logically.

What the job requires: physical strength.

What the applicants can be objectively tested for: physical strength.

The criterion which decides which applican gets the job: physical strength.

Now do you see ANY reference to ovaries and related secondary sexual characteristics here? Was any such reference necessary?

Granted, some women are physically weaker than you. On the other hand, there are some women who can kill a horse with one hand. (OK, I’m assuming that, like me, you can’t do this.) Isn’t it ridiculous to assume a single condition is valid for all women and another condition valid for all men, unless we are actually talking about XY chromosomes?

“Women soldier and the issue of rape.”

Tell me how this differs fundamentally from Male soldiers and the issue of death. Include discussion, where relevant, of risk, choice and social obligations and rights.

“And whatever happened to our discussion of caste?”

I won!!!!! Congratulate me?

No? Ok, see Shandana Minhas’ board – responding to your caste related post there.

(Sheesh, so aggro yaar…)

Regards

Zafar

PS Re: the identification of Brahmins, etc., let me tell you a secret – just as you can probably identify Hindus and Muslims from their names, people who are interested in these things can usually tell the caste of an individual’s family (at least paternal side) from their last names (and often where they are from in India as well). While this does leave these things mysteries for those with random handles, RSaxena’s Northie – UP? - bania antecedents (I think) are no surprise (unless he’s a TamBram, in which case I am obviously the wrong guy to ask :-) Anyway, my point is, if somebody is concerned with these things, he or she usually doesn’t have to baldly ask. Why have Brahmins been brought up? Which other caste group has such a high profile uss paar, I mean your iss paar…mathlab, did it even occur to you to demand if anybody was a Yadav?

Reply Scout # 408

“i am Kshatriya”

Um…we don’t have the caste system, last I checked…not that I am saying you shouldn`t be who you are...

scout

A scout is a scout is a very good scout. No need to be anything else.

Everyone else who participated in my little survey:

Thank you all. I am truly grateful. We can meet utter ignorance only with the light of knowledge.

Hobbyty,

I hope you see that your earlier hypothesis that all Hindus on Chowk are brahmins was not true. Now, you have advanced a second thesis.

ASSERTION 2:

``A Brahmin Hindu on Chowk is more willing/requires less encouragement to reveal his/her caste than does a non-Brahmin Hindu.``

We can test that hypothesis as well. The hypothesis implies that on chowk -

(1) Given equal levels of encouragement, Brahmin Hindus will be quicker to share information about their caste than other Hindus.

(2) For both Brahmin Hindus and non-Brahmin Hindus to be equally willing to reveal their caste affliations, brahmin Hindus will require less ``encouragement.``

I will analyze chowk data in two parts, taking the above-mentioned two implications in turn.

Part 1: Order of Revelations of Caste Affiliations by Hindus on Chowk

(1) As of May-5-02 20:49:44 , the order in which Hindus revealed their caste affiliations on Chowk was as follows -

Rank * Person Caste Affiliation

1. Prem: Brahmin (B)

2. Stuka: Non-Brahmin (NB)

3. Dost Mittar: Non-brahmin (NB)

4. Sadhna: Non-Brahmin (NB)

5. Humsab: Non-Brahmin (NB)

6. Jay: Non-Brahmin (NB) (Did I get that right, Jay?)

7. Arjun_M: Brahmin (B) (not that it is an honor :))

8. RSridhar: Brahmin (B)

9. Akash: Non-Brahmin (NB)

* Rank 1 assigned to the individual making the first revelation, rank 9 to the last.

Thus, out of a total of 9 `revelations,`

----- the rank order for brahmins was 1, 7, 8.

-----the rank order for nonbrahmins was 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9.

Were brahmins were quicker to reveal their caste affiliations than non-brhamins? The data support just the opposite conclusion.

Part 2: The level/kind of ``encouragement`` required by different Hindus to reveal their caste affliations.

If Hobbyty`s thesis is correct then Prem, Sridhar, and Arjun-M will require less ``encouragement`` than others to reveal their caste affiliation. The actual data are as follows:

Rank Person Nature/Amount of Encouragement

1. Prem # 294 Hobbyty # 293

2. Stuka # 386 Hobbyty # 348

3. RSaxena # various No encouragement. His declares his nonbrahminhood in his name.

4. Rest # various Prem # 394

Prem (#294) answered a direct personalized question posed to him by Hobbyty (#293): ``What caste are you? Please explain.`` If Prem did not honestly answer this question, he could be legitimately accused of hiding a fact that could otherwise prove Hobbyty`s contention. The ``encouragement`` to Prem was very large, personal, and moral.

Stuka responded to Hobbyty (#348) statement that all Indians (he meant all Hindus but we will overlook that) on Chowk are brahmins. If stuka did not reveal his caste ``status`` he would be accepting a false statement about himself and his family. The ``encouragement`` to Stuka was also large, but it was generalized, not personalized.

RSaxena never needed an encouragement to ``tell`` or reveal his caste. His name tells anybody who knows ANYTHING about India that he is not a brahmin, and/or does not wish to be thought of as one.

All others shared a common form of encouragement. They responded to a call to establish the objective truth. Neither confronting direct personal questions nor countering falsehoods about their individual families, they did not face ``encouragement`` anywhere as large as in the case of #348 and # 293. Non brahmins revealed their castes quickest in response to this common call sent out to brahmins and nonbrahmins alike. Out of 7 responders, 5 were non-brahmins, their rank order being 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 (rank 1 denotes the quickest revelation).

Did brahmins revealed their caste affiliations because they faced ``less`` encouragement than nonbrahmins? Data support just the opposite conclusion.

Thank you.

Data Analysis Notes: In analyzing chowk data mentioned above, I took affirmative action in FAVOR OF hobbyty`s hypothesis, giving it every opportunity to be proven true. Dost-Mittar, the first person to respond to my call, also shared (thank you, DMji) information about many others people, almost all Nonbrahmins. Including these non-brahmin names would demolish both of hobbty`s theses further. But I excluded those names in order to avoid analytical ambiguities. I also counted arjun_m (despite his own delectable uncertainties) among the Brahmins in order to prop up hobbyty`s thesis that all (most) Hindus on Chowk are brahmins. Even after I took these steps, data strongly disproved both of Hobbyty`s theses.



DRUMZ: Bro, you are lucky. Once a person crosses the age of 30, he/she loses all sense of proportion, getting drawn into completely MORONIC debates. All this after REPEATED pledges to oneself about avoiding certain kind of discussions :)

Akash # 415

Would you by any chance know the complete poem

which is one of the most reverred amongst the Yadav`s of UP.

Alha Udal baRe laRRayya

jin se haar gaee talwar

Will appreciate if you or anyone else can complete it.

Regards.

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Few days away from chowk and looks like we got typecast(e). Ah yes the ``C`` word and the cast(e) of characters is being revealed. Who cast(e) the first stone here?

I could tell you but I really don`t want to...So sorry not casting any votes here.