On Hate
Godot April 14, 2002
#404 Posted by hobbyty on May 7, 2002 1:59:04 am
Akash
Chacha Hobby never asked you what your caste was -he asked Prem what caste he, prem, was - So if you and other non-Brahmins have opted to out your caste affiliation - that is between you and Prem.
As for me, I think caste is - not bad, but evil! and it shames me that persons still find caste affiliation relevent.
Chacha Hobby never asked you what your caste was -he asked Prem what caste he, prem, was - So if you and other non-Brahmins have opted to out your caste affiliation - that is between you and Prem.
As for me, I think caste is - not bad, but evil! and it shames me that persons still find caste affiliation relevent.
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#403 Posted by Akash on May 6, 2002 9:04:00 pm
I consider myself only as an Indian, nothing more, nothing less. I strictly oppose any sort of caste system in Hinduism. According to me, Swami Dayananda and Vivekananda preached the true essence of Hinduism. But if Chacha Hobby insists, let him know that I belong to the caste of Lord Krishna, the Yadavas. And this caste is enlisted as a ``backward caste`` if this is what you want to know hobby.
#402 Posted by hobbyty on May 6, 2002 9:04:00 pm
Prem, Assorted Hindu and non-Hindu Indians
Thank you for number of posts identifying your caste - if you are representative of most Hindus Indians - then it is fair to say, that most hindu Indians on Chowk are not Brahmins.
Is this the first time you have outed yourselves by caste? Also, I noticed, and may be I a wrong, jujst an observation - Brahmin Hindus do not seem to need a lot of encouragement to out themselves by caste, at least relative to other Hindu caste -is this an observation you share?
Thank you for number of posts identifying your caste - if you are representative of most Hindus Indians - then it is fair to say, that most hindu Indians on Chowk are not Brahmins.
Is this the first time you have outed yourselves by caste? Also, I noticed, and may be I a wrong, jujst an observation - Brahmin Hindus do not seem to need a lot of encouragement to out themselves by caste, at least relative to other Hindu caste -is this an observation you share?
#401 Posted by hobbyty on May 6, 2002 9:04:00 pm
Zafar Al-Talib
Zafar, I regret your unwillingness to tackle the issue - The position is not that men and women should not have or do not have rights as human beings - human rights - the issue is how do we understand this given obvious differences between them - eg. A position is open, it requires a physical strength - the employer does not think a woman can handle it - but hires the woman anyway (govt reg.) then it turn out that it is too physical for the woman - Women soldier and the issue of rape.
Before you respond - once again, the issue is not the larger human rights - but the practical, the everyday implication.
And whatever happened to our discussion of caste?
Caste is another human rights issue you say - yes, it is - does that mean it is not an issue connected with Hinduism? Do most Hindus or Indians see caste as a ``human rights`` issue? Or if we discuss caste must we generalize to include all isues of human rights?
To get our conversation back on track, what did you think of the article Alpha posted? What the heck are ``lower caste politics``? and how are they differentiated from ``upper caste politics`` If ``lower caste politics`` attenuates violence between religious communities - how does it do it? and why doesn`t this apply at a national level?
Zafar, I regret your unwillingness to tackle the issue - The position is not that men and women should not have or do not have rights as human beings - human rights - the issue is how do we understand this given obvious differences between them - eg. A position is open, it requires a physical strength - the employer does not think a woman can handle it - but hires the woman anyway (govt reg.) then it turn out that it is too physical for the woman - Women soldier and the issue of rape.
Before you respond - once again, the issue is not the larger human rights - but the practical, the everyday implication.
And whatever happened to our discussion of caste?
Caste is another human rights issue you say - yes, it is - does that mean it is not an issue connected with Hinduism? Do most Hindus or Indians see caste as a ``human rights`` issue? Or if we discuss caste must we generalize to include all isues of human rights?
To get our conversation back on track, what did you think of the article Alpha posted? What the heck are ``lower caste politics``? and how are they differentiated from ``upper caste politics`` If ``lower caste politics`` attenuates violence between religious communities - how does it do it? and why doesn`t this apply at a national level?
#400 Posted by rsridhar on May 6, 2002 9:04:00 pm
re:Reply #: 402
AAmir,
It is a shame. As an NRI i can tell you i do not support BJP after the Gujarat carnage. USA is full of Gujjus who are pro-BJP. It is a pity that the land where Gandhi was born has become the most violent place in India today.
Sridhar
AAmir,
It is a shame. As an NRI i can tell you i do not support BJP after the Gujarat carnage. USA is full of Gujjus who are pro-BJP. It is a pity that the land where Gandhi was born has become the most violent place in India today.
Sridhar
#399 Posted by rsridhar on May 6, 2002 9:04:00 pm
re: caste
Prem,
I am a brahmin. You would have guessed it if you had read my posts directed at one of the chowkies who has been writing nasty things about brahmins.
Sridhar
Prem,
I am a brahmin. You would have guessed it if you had read my posts directed at one of the chowkies who has been writing nasty things about brahmins.
Sridhar
#398 Posted by cutandpaste on May 6, 2002 9:04:00 pm
MINORITY GROUPS
Hindus, Sikhs say they still face threats in Afghanistan
By Indira A.R. Lakshmanan, Globe Staff, 5/6/2002
HOST, Afghanistan - They no longer have to wear yellow badges like the Jews under Nazi rule, but little else has changed for Afghanistan`s religious minorities, the Hindus and Sikhs.
One year ago, the Taliban provoked an international outcry with a decree that Hindus and Sikhs must identify themselves to the feared religious police by wearing patches, turbans, or veils of saffron yellow, the holy color of the two religions.
Four months ago, a new government took office, promising equal rights for all Afghans. Yet many Hindus and Sikhs say that life is no better - and in some cases, is worse - under the new Afghan flag.
Despite the end of official discrimination and kind words from the new leaders in Kabul, Sikhs and Hindus have no schools for their children, no access to government jobs or university education, no seats on the commission that set rules for electing a new government, and no protection from warlords who have seized their lands and homes.
``During the Taliban, we were first put in jail and then forced to wear yellow turbans and brown skullcaps, but at least we had law and order,`` said Bajan Singh, 27, a Sikh.
A few months ago, he said, his land and house were confiscated by a local commander in this eastern city near the Pakistani border.
``After the Taliban left, it`s turmoil in this city,`` said Bajan Singh, who like many Sikh men uses the last name Singh, as many women use the last name Kaur. ``By night, burglars rob our houses. By day, thieves steal from us. The police station closest to us harasses us.
``One of my brothers was kidnapped by security guards from this area, and we had to pay ransom,`` he said, lowering his voice to a whisper. ``We are stopped everywhere, and many don`t dare to go out of the house.``
Cooped up in walled compounds, a virtually invisible community that is among the poorest in Afghanistan has been overlooked even by the international aid agencies that came to help the needy after the fall of the Taliban. Programs have been created for women and ethnic minorities who were persecuted under the Taliban, but not for Hindus and Sikhs, the only non-Muslims here in any numbers.
Hinduism in Afghanistan dates back at least to the seventh century, when a Chinese traveler reported Hindu kingdoms in Kabul and Ghazni. In 1992, the community whose ancestors emigrated from what is now India numbered 50,000. When the mujahideen defeated the Soviet-backed regime that year, soldiers ran rampant in minority communities, burning homes and raping women, spurring an exodus to India that continued over the last decade of civil war and Taliban repression. The community dwindled to about 2,000 people in seven cities.
Because of their tiny numbers and related faiths, the Hindu and Sikh communities in Afghanistan have merged, sharing temples and residential compounds, even though their coreligionists in India have often been at odds. Those who remain in Afghanistan say they were simply too poor to flee.
Under the former king, Mohammed Zahir Shah, and later the communist government of the 1980s, Sikhs and Hindus held respected positions as doctors, engineers, and civil servants. They had two parliamentary representatives until the early 1990s, when the Islamic mujahideen government banned them from official jobs and college placements, restrictions that have not yet been lifted.
The situation is particularly bad for the 176 Sikhs and Hindus here in Khost, with Kandahar one of two former Taliban strongholds where authorities succeeded in forcing them to wear yellow last year. (In Kabul, Sikh leaders defeated the decree by threatening to move the entire community out of Afghanistan.) Men here were beaten and jailed for three days and then were marched around the town center wearing the new headgear so everyone would know they were not Muslims.
Looking back on that period, Singh considers the Taliban`s discriminatory dress code ``a minor problem`` compared to his current woes. Like many Afghan Sikhs, he wears a Muslim-style skullcap and ignores his religion`s prohibition against haircutting.
A local commander has seized land and houses, even cemetery plots, of Hindus and Sikhs for his personal use, according to community elders. They say that guards at a nearby checkpoint did nothing when a car was stolen and its driver beaten in front of the compound where Hindus and Sikhs now live.
A dozen Hindus and Sikhs who opened video and music shops to capitalize on the renewed popularity of Indian movies after the fall of the Taliban keep their shutters half-closed since two bombings targeted their businesses. Unsigned pamphlets spread before the February attacks warned that those who sell or use ``things prohibited by Islam will face the consequences.``
Video store owners Jagjeet Singh and Seeda Nand escaped injury, but lost $1,000 each in inventory when their shops were bombed. Despite the danger of a fresh attack, they can`t afford to start new businesses. The front of Gopal Singh`s music shop was destroyed by another bomb, and his terrified landlord terminated his lease, leaving Gopal Singh broke and jobless.
``Like other Afghans, we`d like the right to live somewhere else, not just in this compound,`` said Khost community leader Prakash Lal, 76, gesturing toward the dilapidated mud dwellings of the compound, which stretch for blocks.
They also want a new temple, ``so we can pray freely and comfortably,`` Lal said, gesturing miserably at their bombed-out house of worship. It was sacked by a local commander in 1992 to avenge the destruction of a mosque in India by Hindu extremists.
In Kabul, community leader Autar Singh, 39, is more optimistic than Lal, thanks to a recent visit from interim leader Hamid Karzai. Yet Singh admitted his pleas for assistance have yet to yield any results.
The community`s top wish is for a teacher, because their children can`t go to school without enduring hurled stones and insults. In its heyday, Kabul`s Sikh and Hindu community had a school for 5,000 children; today, they have 100 youngsters and not one teacher.
``In terms of freedom, our lives are much better now, and we have good relations with officials in Kabul,`` said Autar Singh, who displays his loyalty to Afghanistan on his office walls, where framed portraits of Karzai and Northern Alliance hero Ahmad Shah Massood share space with posters of temples in India.
``But economically, our lives are approaching zero,`` he said with a sigh. ``All the other ethnic groups are getting help from the government, the aid agencies, or the United Nations. Why not us?``
This story ran on page A1 of the Boston Globe on 5/6/2002
Hindus, Sikhs say they still face threats in Afghanistan
By Indira A.R. Lakshmanan, Globe Staff, 5/6/2002
HOST, Afghanistan - They no longer have to wear yellow badges like the Jews under Nazi rule, but little else has changed for Afghanistan`s religious minorities, the Hindus and Sikhs.
One year ago, the Taliban provoked an international outcry with a decree that Hindus and Sikhs must identify themselves to the feared religious police by wearing patches, turbans, or veils of saffron yellow, the holy color of the two religions.
Four months ago, a new government took office, promising equal rights for all Afghans. Yet many Hindus and Sikhs say that life is no better - and in some cases, is worse - under the new Afghan flag.
Despite the end of official discrimination and kind words from the new leaders in Kabul, Sikhs and Hindus have no schools for their children, no access to government jobs or university education, no seats on the commission that set rules for electing a new government, and no protection from warlords who have seized their lands and homes.
``During the Taliban, we were first put in jail and then forced to wear yellow turbans and brown skullcaps, but at least we had law and order,`` said Bajan Singh, 27, a Sikh.
A few months ago, he said, his land and house were confiscated by a local commander in this eastern city near the Pakistani border.
``After the Taliban left, it`s turmoil in this city,`` said Bajan Singh, who like many Sikh men uses the last name Singh, as many women use the last name Kaur. ``By night, burglars rob our houses. By day, thieves steal from us. The police station closest to us harasses us.
``One of my brothers was kidnapped by security guards from this area, and we had to pay ransom,`` he said, lowering his voice to a whisper. ``We are stopped everywhere, and many don`t dare to go out of the house.``
Cooped up in walled compounds, a virtually invisible community that is among the poorest in Afghanistan has been overlooked even by the international aid agencies that came to help the needy after the fall of the Taliban. Programs have been created for women and ethnic minorities who were persecuted under the Taliban, but not for Hindus and Sikhs, the only non-Muslims here in any numbers.
Hinduism in Afghanistan dates back at least to the seventh century, when a Chinese traveler reported Hindu kingdoms in Kabul and Ghazni. In 1992, the community whose ancestors emigrated from what is now India numbered 50,000. When the mujahideen defeated the Soviet-backed regime that year, soldiers ran rampant in minority communities, burning homes and raping women, spurring an exodus to India that continued over the last decade of civil war and Taliban repression. The community dwindled to about 2,000 people in seven cities.
Because of their tiny numbers and related faiths, the Hindu and Sikh communities in Afghanistan have merged, sharing temples and residential compounds, even though their coreligionists in India have often been at odds. Those who remain in Afghanistan say they were simply too poor to flee.
Under the former king, Mohammed Zahir Shah, and later the communist government of the 1980s, Sikhs and Hindus held respected positions as doctors, engineers, and civil servants. They had two parliamentary representatives until the early 1990s, when the Islamic mujahideen government banned them from official jobs and college placements, restrictions that have not yet been lifted.
The situation is particularly bad for the 176 Sikhs and Hindus here in Khost, with Kandahar one of two former Taliban strongholds where authorities succeeded in forcing them to wear yellow last year. (In Kabul, Sikh leaders defeated the decree by threatening to move the entire community out of Afghanistan.) Men here were beaten and jailed for three days and then were marched around the town center wearing the new headgear so everyone would know they were not Muslims.
Looking back on that period, Singh considers the Taliban`s discriminatory dress code ``a minor problem`` compared to his current woes. Like many Afghan Sikhs, he wears a Muslim-style skullcap and ignores his religion`s prohibition against haircutting.
A local commander has seized land and houses, even cemetery plots, of Hindus and Sikhs for his personal use, according to community elders. They say that guards at a nearby checkpoint did nothing when a car was stolen and its driver beaten in front of the compound where Hindus and Sikhs now live.
A dozen Hindus and Sikhs who opened video and music shops to capitalize on the renewed popularity of Indian movies after the fall of the Taliban keep their shutters half-closed since two bombings targeted their businesses. Unsigned pamphlets spread before the February attacks warned that those who sell or use ``things prohibited by Islam will face the consequences.``
Video store owners Jagjeet Singh and Seeda Nand escaped injury, but lost $1,000 each in inventory when their shops were bombed. Despite the danger of a fresh attack, they can`t afford to start new businesses. The front of Gopal Singh`s music shop was destroyed by another bomb, and his terrified landlord terminated his lease, leaving Gopal Singh broke and jobless.
``Like other Afghans, we`d like the right to live somewhere else, not just in this compound,`` said Khost community leader Prakash Lal, 76, gesturing toward the dilapidated mud dwellings of the compound, which stretch for blocks.
They also want a new temple, ``so we can pray freely and comfortably,`` Lal said, gesturing miserably at their bombed-out house of worship. It was sacked by a local commander in 1992 to avenge the destruction of a mosque in India by Hindu extremists.
In Kabul, community leader Autar Singh, 39, is more optimistic than Lal, thanks to a recent visit from interim leader Hamid Karzai. Yet Singh admitted his pleas for assistance have yet to yield any results.
The community`s top wish is for a teacher, because their children can`t go to school without enduring hurled stones and insults. In its heyday, Kabul`s Sikh and Hindu community had a school for 5,000 children; today, they have 100 youngsters and not one teacher.
``In terms of freedom, our lives are much better now, and we have good relations with officials in Kabul,`` said Autar Singh, who displays his loyalty to Afghanistan on his office walls, where framed portraits of Karzai and Northern Alliance hero Ahmad Shah Massood share space with posters of temples in India.
``But economically, our lives are approaching zero,`` he said with a sigh. ``All the other ethnic groups are getting help from the government, the aid agencies, or the United Nations. Why not us?``
This story ran on page A1 of the Boston Globe on 5/6/2002
#397 Posted by arjun_m on May 6, 2002 9:04:00 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#395 Posted by satyavadi on May 6, 2002 1:00:53 pm
Dost Mittar #395:
I am non-Brahmin and not a Hindu by religion.
--Satyavadi
I am non-Brahmin and not a Hindu by religion.
--Satyavadi
#394 Posted by jay on May 6, 2002 12:01:55 pm
prem,
It is this urge to know the truth and to accept it is wahat makes an indian different from a pakistani. For a pakistani, none your statistics collection matters, it is the pakistani education system that has been drilled into them in the pak.org history that guides their action, learning in the early childhood that one can see through in YLH, romair and others where higher education makes no difference to their world view.
I have said once before, my family of one brother and four sisters are doctors and engineers, most with masters degrees, thanks to the caste based reservation system. If india has progressed, it is because of the belief of my generation, that you need no connection, no influence and no money to achieve progress, and no family can demonstrate it better than mine, children of illiterate poor parents. And probaly no one can prove it better than my classmate, who walked with me for an hour to go to primary school, and now runs the US$ ten billion Reliance refinary in Jamnagar.
regards
Jay
It is this urge to know the truth and to accept it is wahat makes an indian different from a pakistani. For a pakistani, none your statistics collection matters, it is the pakistani education system that has been drilled into them in the pak.org history that guides their action, learning in the early childhood that one can see through in YLH, romair and others where higher education makes no difference to their world view.
I have said once before, my family of one brother and four sisters are doctors and engineers, most with masters degrees, thanks to the caste based reservation system. If india has progressed, it is because of the belief of my generation, that you need no connection, no influence and no money to achieve progress, and no family can demonstrate it better than mine, children of illiterate poor parents. And probaly no one can prove it better than my classmate, who walked with me for an hour to go to primary school, and now runs the US$ ten billion Reliance refinary in Jamnagar.
regards
Jay
#392 Posted by Lajwanti on May 6, 2002 12:01:55 pm
Reply Jayparkash #390
``It is the shaheed concept that makes islam unique and ensure that jihadic frontiers will always be a line of bloodshed. The muslims from all over the world converged in afghanistan in large numbers seeking tickets to heaven, so is the case in kashmir, philippines. People have to realise the religious dimension of these frontiers. What the world needs is guidelines and global cooperation to control the jihadic frontiers.``
Wjhyy ou are write to me? Do you knowDeepka?
Whatworldneeding is guidelinea nd globl cooperatings to control DEEPKA!
``It is the shaheed concept that makes islam unique and ensure that jihadic frontiers will always be a line of bloodshed. The muslims from all over the world converged in afghanistan in large numbers seeking tickets to heaven, so is the case in kashmir, philippines. People have to realise the religious dimension of these frontiers. What the world needs is guidelines and global cooperation to control the jihadic frontiers.``
Wjhyy ou are write to me? Do you knowDeepka?
Whatworldneeding is guidelinea nd globl cooperatings to control DEEPKA!
#391 Posted by sigalph235 on May 6, 2002 12:01:55 pm
re jay
``What the world needs is guidelines and global cooperation to control the jihadic frontiers.``
Control? I don`t think so. The word is crush. Not only the physical, but the very ideological and psychological support mechanisms of this cancer need to be destroyed with the mercilessness of Genghiz Khan, the Inquisition, and Nazi Germany combined. Even those who provide `diplomatic` or `moral` support to this cancer should be held fully acountable. This, sir, is one battle that no quarter can be given.
``What the world needs is guidelines and global cooperation to control the jihadic frontiers.``
Control? I don`t think so. The word is crush. Not only the physical, but the very ideological and psychological support mechanisms of this cancer need to be destroyed with the mercilessness of Genghiz Khan, the Inquisition, and Nazi Germany combined. Even those who provide `diplomatic` or `moral` support to this cancer should be held fully acountable. This, sir, is one battle that no quarter can be given.
#390 Posted by AAmir on May 6, 2002 12:01:55 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#389 Posted by AAmir on May 6, 2002 12:01:55 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- KaalChakra: Yes, thanks, DM Ji.... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- dost_mittar: KaalChakra: This is from your... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- sadna: kaal For many years I've... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- mohar11: countless maass murders have... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- KaalChakra: first, and to what... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- KaalChakra: I think our discussion... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- KaalChakra: rahul, there has never... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- rahul_capri: sadna,I just read it,thanks.I... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
