On Hate

Dost-mittar # 470

Thank you sir for your kind consideration and

necessary action.

Your most obediently:))

dost-mittar #465

[Banjaara ji, if you are working for the ISI, India is in deep do-do :-). And if you are not, all Indian Chowkies should petition the Indian govt. to give you an honorary citizenship; if Zafar is aadha Hindu, you are teen-chauthai there!]

Bhai jaan,

Nasha pila ke girana tau sub ko aata hai

maza tau jab hai ke girtoN ko thaam le saqi

Won`t it be better to work for ISI and still get the honorary citizenship with your help :-)

Regards.

PS: Yes it was the same Prithvi Raj Chauhan.

re: shrinker

{Idiot..praising a religion isnt patronising...}

...it is when you know jackshit about it and parrot stuff you hear other people say just to win some lemme-kiss-your-behind points....

{& why`s your dick all tied up in knots if I feel Paki girls are good looking?}

...b.c. you propogate this myth that your filthy behind is representative of indians in general...

...now fcuk off and go think about why you couldn`t hack it as a real doctor...

hobbyt contd
`` Can you please refresh my memory about his comments and specifically, exactly what about the comments?``
Its amazing you donot recall. Read him at :

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2002-daily/10-05-2002/oped/o1.htm

He seems to insist that its religiously-sanctioned to look at the world as divided into Muslims and nonMuslims, implicitly as mutual adversaries.

hobbyt #462
`` Yes, in my opinion, Jihad is morally sound - a request, please do not bother to go into what Jihad means - we`ve done that and we are not talking about wars of conquest or conversion but of self defense and freedom.``

Can you tell me examples of where jihad has been a successful method of self defense and attaining freedom?

Also, it seems that you think armed jihad in far-off places is to be waged for self-defense/freedom of Muslims only and then, only against nonMuslims.

The thinking that any Muslim anywhere in the world is justified in waging armed action anywhere else in the world translates in real life into the self-imposed isolation of Muslims.

NonMuslims acquainted with this religiously-sanctioned choice, will respond by preventing the free movement of Muslims into their regions of influence. Perhaps some Muslim countries may do so too. Was it Dubai or Abu Dhabi which was refusing visas to Pakistanis till recently?

Muslims supporting armed jihad cannot justifiably ask for equal just treatment and resolution of political conflicts without undue force until they are willing to recognise the exactly similar claims of others.

Saxena,

{{in your pathetic attempt to appear PC, you become so patronizing it is unbelievable...}}

Idiot..praising a religion isnt patronising...

& why`s your dick all tied up in knots if I feel Paki girls are good looking? Jealous..Raveena?

``appear PC``? huhn?! whats that? speak in english, achoot kid

Prem # 458

``OK, now, Banjaara bhaiyaa, out with the truth....yeh maazra kya hai? :)``

Bhai maajra kuch bhi nahin.One of your countrymen

taunted us Pakistanis that we know nothing about India and Indians and that forced me to tell him

a thing or two about India.

Dost-Mittar # 459

Pa ji (punjabi wala:))

Sher da matlab eh vay:

One who has not experienced pain

Has no knowledge about the hurt

As far as Aalha Udal are concerned,they were two Rajput Brothers serving the last Mahoba Ruler

Raja Piramal in the 12th century AD. Prithvi Raj Chauhan attacked Mahoba in 1182 and these two brothers fought valiantly to safeguard their Raja

and died in the process.The court poet Jagnik Rao wrote an epic comprising 20,000 verses of their valour and it is known as Veer Kavya.Qutbuddin Aibak conquered Mahoba in 1203 and it became a part of Delhi Sultanate.The Aalha Udal is sung

all over UP by the Yadavs and kshatris and reflects more of a martial than musical essence

as is also observed in the Rajzia poetry in Persian and Arabic.

Regards.

Sadna

``If i am not mistaken, you are saying you are not against armed jihad in faroff places in principle( the theology behind armed jihad is sound), its just that you want the citizens of only a future prosperous egalitarian Pakistan to take it up.``

Yes, in my opinion, Jihad is morally sound - a request, please do not bother to go into what Jihad means - we`ve done that and we are not talking about wars of conquest or conversion but of self defense and freedom.

But if it justified, why not act now? because we must first build a consensus and secondly a Pakistan populated by a more educated population, may wish to engage the entire issue differently.

``Does this condition you are adding on have basis in theology or its your personal opinion?``

I can`t speak of theology except to offer an opinion.

``And just how would you decide when the requisite amount of Liberty, equality and education has been reached to make a consensus on armed jihad acceptable?``

society can only do so after discussion, debate, awareness of the implications of action - followed by more debate and discussion - In any society in which Liberty is a value, grows the awareness, that it does not stand alone and that if it can be threatened in one place, it will be threatened in another. A more Egalitarian society, not an ``equal`` society -no communist rubbish, please - we can work to build a more egalitarian society - the day it becomes an ``equal `` society - Liberty will have been extinguished.

``You havenot replied about his comments on the Muslim/nonMuslim division``

Can you please refresh my memory about his comments and specifically, exactly what about the comments?

re: fawad

{regardless of what you say economically the pakistanis are better off, the average pakistani is not starving.}

that my friend is no longer true..india`s per capita is now higher than pakistan`s...the average pakistani is poorer than the average indian...stop deluding yourselves...

hey shank i agree with you pakistan aint paradise but neither is india and how dare you say we all bear some collective responsisbility ...............regardless of what you say economically the pakistanis are better off, the average pakistani is not starving............many many muslims moved up when the hindus left....hindusim is ripe in racism castism and violent tendencies as are all systems etc etc but hindus arent responsible i dont hold you respinsible for gujrat so you shouldnt hold me responsible for kashmir ....so spare us the anti muslim diatribe

Akash,

Man, we ought to launch a full-scale investigation - how on earth does Banjaara know so much about India?!

OK, now, Banjaara bhaiyaa, out with the truth....yeh maazra kya hai? :)

Also, Banjaara, that little saying/ditty was among the favorite wisecracks of my grandmother...You reminded me of days long gone by...

hobbyt #455
``Were Pakistan a country that was overwhelmingly egalitarian in the opportunities, the life chances, it enables her citizens to have, were it`s citizens among the most highly educated in the world, were there a consensus that the Liberty and equality of Pakistanis and Muslims better served by accepting the sacrifices in ``far off places`` - such a difference in positions would be meaningless. On this issue, at this time, I tend to agree with the General.``

If i am not mistaken, you are saying you are not against armed jihad in faroff places in principle( the theology behind armed jihad is sound), its just that you want the citizens of only a future prosperous egalitarian Pakistan to take it up. Does this condition you are adding on have basis in theology or its your personal opinion?

And just how would you decide when the requisite amount of Liberty, equality and education has been reached to make a consensus on armed jihad acceptable?

You havenot replied about his comments on the Muslim/nonMuslim division

Banjara

Man, you just reminded me of the blood curdling way the story of valor of Alha-Udal is sung in UP. Alha is sung not only among Yadavas but also Rajputs. I believe these Alha-Udal were Bundelkhandi Rajputs. I dont remember the lyrics of Alha-Udal `coz I moved out of the village when I was young. But I still have faint memories of its recitation. One such scene is etched indelibly into my mind- that wonderful recitation of that person in chaupal that turned the whole crowd crazy. It was indescribable.

Sadna

The author of the article from which you have quoted is one of the great young intellectuals to come out of Pakistan in the recent past. He is a man of wide breadth of learning and intellectual endeavor - learned, young, accomplished, a scientist and a religious scholar and I like to think that I am his friend.

On Shandana`s board, I have posted a piece, actually several pieces, about the ``religiosity of emulation`` - I invite you to read them and comment - also my opinion of where the awakening of women in Muslim/Islamic society stands and what is required to invigorate this awakening.

The author of the article you have posted has taken a position against the kind of analysis and interpretation I find compelling. I am be wrong or perhaps he is wrong or we may be both wrong - however; it is clear to me, that we must be conscious that we are not operating in the framework of a single intellectual concept - and while one may not have the the right to issue religious edicts, it does not necessarily follow that the ideas or opinions one holds or expresses, are by that virtue, invalid, incorrect or just plain ``no damn good.``

In the article you quoted, both the author and the General, are agreed on doing the ``good`` - but choose to describe that ``good`` in different terms, reflecting different priorities. Were Pakistan a country that was overwhelmingly egalitarian in the opportunities, the life chances, it enables her citizens to have, were it`s citizens among the most highly educated in the world, were there a consensus that the Liberty and equality of Pakistanis and Muslims better served by accepting the sacrifices in ``far off places`` - such a difference in positions would be meaningless. On this issue, at this time, I tend to agree with the General.

BTW Sadna, also on Shandana`s board I have posted an article from the ``Hindu`` newspaper, written by an Indian foreign service officer - please comment - I think it is most pertinent, events will soon come to a head and the implications are horrific.

Prem # 447

``(not sure about you - because your knowledge of India and Hinduism is truly impressive).``

Jaa ke goR na jai bewaee

Oo ka jaane peeR paraee

Regards.

Prem

``It`s like this, hobbty: there is no THEORETICAL or PRACTICAL reason to believe that the missing X variable is NOT orthogonal to the included X variables. That means the parameter estimates are UNBIASED.``

Rubbish! You are not being asked to believe anything - you are being encouraged to include pertinent factors in the data to assess your conclusion.

The premise was that Brahmins give up their caste ID quicker than other lower castes - What`s being measured? The rate/speed at which respondents would give up their caste ID as Brahmins? how do we measure that if they become aware of the querry at different times?

Had all the respondents become aware of the question at the same time - we could then say, based on our data - such a premise is unsupportable - however; this was not the case and clearly, the conclusion you have reached is unsupportable by the data.

Shankar

Indeed, as Muslims, especially in Pakistan, we have failed ourselves - but a tremendous silver lining in included in this soul searching - success or failure is not the ultimate in the quest to seek meaning as a Muslim, in my opinion, it is being conscious of striving, struggling, to continue to seek meaning as a Muslim.

When it comes to the question of caste or any question of conscience - one`s failure, regardless of religion - must never infuse a paraylsis, or abandonment of conscience. Because one has been unable to live or create a more egalitarian, as opposed to less egalitarian society - does not mean that one shall cease to confront the evil of caste.

The response of so many Hindus and Indians has been to say ``well, what about you in Pakistan or what about you as Muslims`` - I think such a response misses the point of the discussion, which was caste, and it is an attempt to avoid the discussion by shifting attention elsewhere -Whenever such an attempt is made by persons who begin to feel insecure or defensive - if one`s interlocutor(s) had a malevolent intent, they would indeed be gratified - it ensures that the opposition remains, at it`s core, weak and empty. You decide whether that is to be the course of your choosing.

re: prem

...your efforts to make a point to hobbyty the religious retard are noble, but going around asking people sick caste questions is well, sick...there are enough small-minded indian pigs living in america and england who are still choking on regionalism and casteism...don`t encourage it...never in india was i asked about caste or whether i was gujju, punjabi, sindhi, etc...

re: shrinker #48

...in your pathetic attempt to appear PC, you become so patronizing it is unbelievable...

hobbyt, anyone

Since we are talking caste divisions being evil, and also been talking of a world view divided by religions being evil, can anyone explain whether the views of this person are theologically/religiously authentic:


http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2002-daily/10-05-2002/oped/o1.htm

Re Muslim/nonMuslim division:

``...I asked the reader to tell me what he meant by this label. He said that you see the world consisting of Muslims and non-Muslims and that my writings smack of a phobia and bias against the West. I reminded him of a recent incarnation of West`s own attitude toward Islam and Muslims -- this time expressed by none other than the President of the United States of America: ``You are either with us or against us.`` I also mentioned a number of Qur`aanic verses that clearly state that there are people, nations and tribes who are adherents of Truth (al-Haqq) and those who are against the Truth. In fact, the Qur`aan also mentions a party of Allah and a party against Allah. I quoted several ahadith of the Prophet of Islam in which he has mentioned that those who follow the non-believers in their ways are, in fact, among them.

This was too much for him. He retorted by stating: ``here you go again. You are un-curable.`` My next question to him was: ``Do you believe in the two prime sources of Islam from which I derive my worldview?`` He said, ``as a Muslim, I do believe in the Qur`aan and Sunnah but not in your interpretation.`` I told him that I was not even interpreting these sources; I was just quoting them. This brought us to a dead end...``


Re armed jihad :


``..According to my knowledge, our military academies do not teach any of these subjects. But what is worse, while expressing his complete adherence to the teachings of Islam, the [Punjab] governor said, ``it wouldn`t be a wise idea to wage jihad in far off places. It is not the right thing to send our youth to Chechnya or Eritrea for participating in jihad. We have a lot of frontiers to defend back home. Instead, the youth should be educated and engaged in more constructive and rewarding jobs, which, in turn, contribute to the progress of the country.``

Here we have a retired general, negating all Islamic teachings and history, issuing a religious decree without any qualifications, preaching things totally foreign to Islam. The Prophet of Islam had waged a relentless jihad against the Arab tribes who lived far away from Madinah. Just a day after the death of the Prophet of Islam, Abu Bakr (RA) sent out the Muslim army under the command of Usama bin Zayd to a place that was far away from Madina and he did this at a time when several false prophets were emerging and there was a great danger of tribal revolt against the nascent Islamic state. But a retired army general negates all of this and wishes to turn the ``youth toward more rewarding jobs``. And all of this in a state that still claims to be the ``Islamic Republic of Pakistan``!..``

``.. But the retired general, who issued the decree, ignores all of this. The youth of Pakistan, he says, should be employed in more rewarding jobs while their brethren in faith are being killed and their dead bodies are being savagely treated next door.

These new muftis are the victims of self-delusion. They have become prey to an engineered version of Islam that is being relentlessly forced on the Muslim world. In this new construction, most of the basic truths of Islam have been inverted. Along with this corruption, there has emerged a fabricated social reality, equally skewed....``


Who is more theologically sound, the author or the Punjab governor(who is the author says is unqualified to issue religious edicts?)?

An interview with Pakistani intellectual and leftist Tariq Ali

www.asiapacificforum.org

hobbyty,

{{``is it fair for me to proclaim that ``Islam is morally neutered by sect?!``

I think that`s a personal judgement - If you think that what it means - who amn I to object.}}

Thankyou for the short reply. For once, I could understand you.

No, I dont believe Islam is ``morally neutered``. That would be a very very unfair conclusion to make. I believe Islam is a great religion & the Prophet was one of the greatest men who walked on this earth, in the past millenium.

It is many of his overzealous followers who have betrayed him & Islam. The irony is that the ones who have spat on his face are the same guys who thump the Koran on their chests & wear Islam on their sleeves.

There has always been a great debate among muslims about ``who is a TRUE muslim?!`` It is my personal opinion that those who have interpreted Allah`s word in the Koran in an extremely narrow way, without giving any leeway to changing societal attitudes towards ``morality``, the passage of time, the ``shrinking`` of the world (where people of different faiths interact more closely than ever) have hijacked Islam & are destroying the good name of the religion.

Islam is a truely egalitarian religion which emphasises love, respect, tolerence & peace above anything else. Alas, take a look at Islamic countries, in general, today. For the sake of proving my point, take a look at Islamic Republic of Pakistan (other countries with Islamic majorities are, more or less, similar).

Is Pakistan:

1)egalitarian?: NO! There are ``classes`` & ``sects`` (you may not call them castes)..but for all practical purposes they are no different. The rich feudals & powerful military exploit the poor.

How many feudals will marry their children to their nauker`s children?! For that matter, how many middle class Pakistanis arrange a nikkah between their children & their servant`s children?!

2)Respectful of others?: NO! Sunnis & Shias kill each other..even places of worship are targetted in killing! Ofcourse, its easier to blame a ``foreign hand`` than taking personal responsibility.

3)Tolerant?: NO! Any group that DARES interpret Islam in their own way are EXCOMMUNICATED! Case in point, Ahmedias! Anybody who DARES criticise the Prophet is sentenced to death for blasphemy!

4) Peaceful?: NO! Murders, rapes, robberies, dacoiteries, terrorism are JUST as prevelant in Pakistan as in idol-worshipping Hindu majority India! In fact, internal Pakistani law & order situation is a JOKE!

Sometimes I wonder what GOOD has the PEFRECT word of God done for muslims...as a society?! Maybe, as individuals, it has enriched your spirituality..I cant argue with that. But dont you think, as a society, you ALL bear some COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY?!

I`ll be the first one to admit that we hindus are just as bad...maybe worse.. But, you see, we HAVENT had the benefit of recieving the PERFECT word of god!

Whats YOUR excuse, O pious muslims of this world?!

Seems to me, Allah gave you all the answers, before hand, then HE gave an ``open book`` exam. YOU STILL FAILED HIM, as a society!!! What the HELL good has all the wisdom of the PERFECT word of God done for Pakistan as a country, or society?!

You are surrounded by Islam, but you still argue what a TRUE muslim is! The same Islam has produced very decent people like tahmed & scout & absolute criminals like OBL. So, as a society, dont you think Islam has ever entered your souls? Sometimes I think Allah will look at us kafirs more kindly on Judgement Day. At least, we dont know any better! But you MUSLIM societies...fail an exam even after knowing the answers!!..

yaar..kuch to sharam karo!

shankar, dost-mittarji, sridhar

Thanks guys. Not sure if all this is water off a duck`s back, but one tries...One likes the pond; so one`s gotta deal with the occasional oily duck sometimes.

Zafar Mian

he he...my apologies! Aur bhi mauqe milenge iss haseen daur mein...:)

arjun_m

Hear ye, hear ye! Included you in that sorry list of brahmins in a bekaar attempt to bolster hobbyty`s hokey hypotheses. Ofcourse his delusions found no legs even then. But will my bending over backwards to do him this gentle favor keep hobbyty from complaining? Noooooo....isse kahte hain chori aur phir seena zori.

Hobbyty

I am sorry but your objections do not have any validity.

OBJECTION 1: Different people could have read my call at different times. Because I did not include this variable, my results are not valid.

Hmmm...someone clearly hasn`t analyzed much real data, certainly not very competently. Where should I begin to explain the basics of data analysis?...It`s like this, hobbty: there is no THEORETICAL or PRACTICAL reason to believe that the missing X variable is NOT orthogonal to the included X variables. That means the parameter estimates are UNBIASED.

sumjhe bade bhai?

OBJECTION 2: ``Was the encouragement I offered Prem less than or greater than or equal to what prem offered other Hindu Indians? how do we gauge it - lets agree that it was equal.``

Agreement is good, but not so soon, hobbytyji. And although this is not critical to our conclusions, let`s take at our respective ``encouragements:``

Your ``encouragement`` to me -

* * * * * * * * * *BEGIN * * * * * * * * * * * *

Reply Scout # 429

“how dare you question my identity?”

I wouldn’t dare…

(Btw, have I mentioned that I’m a Sunni Falasha of Chitpawan Brahmin/Syed background? Not that these things matter to me, of course…)

re: shankar # 438

I hear you. I have witnessed the suffering caused by the system of caste from close quarters, and from both pro- and anti- brahmin persepectives.

I once wrote a post for chowk describing how some older people in my own family discriminated against a dalit friend of mine (it was partly in homage to this friend that I had earlier picked the nick eklavya). That memory still rankles deep inside me.

Although not nearly as much as in South, things are changing in the North as well. Mayawati is our Chief Minister for the third time. This is all for the good, although it does cause a great deal of unhappiness sometimes.

Once my father had a dalit IAS officer boss. For reasons best known to himself (I have my suspicions. My father must have made some thoughtless comments - he is no better than me, in that respect), he turned my father`s life upside down for years. How many times our family invited this officer home just to placate him! The basta *d would come, eat to his heart`s content, and still not change his behavior :)

Now I can smile about it, but in those days, I used to feel a deep black rage at the very thought of this guy. I didn`t mind serving him food, I just detested his smirk. I even sent him an anonymous death threat once! LOL...not sure if it ever reached him.

These personal experiences apart, on balance, I would still prefer not to be a dalit, at least in UP. UP has got MILES to go before it can be counted among the civilized places on earth-free from discrimination of man against man.

re: sadna # 441

Thanks for that link. I noticed they sell a CD too, which I will try to get.

The funny thing is that I have heard Aallha sung ONLY ONCE in my entire life; and that too, when I was very very young. That one experience has left an idelible impression on my mind. There is nothing quite like Aallha in any other form of music I ever heard.

``is it fair for me to proclaim that ``Islam is morally neutered by sect?!``

I think that`s a personal judgement - If you think that what it means - who amn I to object.

``You shameless SOB, when you point one finger at us, there are 3 more pointing back at you!!``

GROUP THINK - you decide how healthy, appealing or convincing that is

re: shanka `s diatribe

Shanka in pakistan there are reserved seats for underrepresented classes too namely afghanis , hindus kashmiris too.....i guess the reserved seats for the dalits are a form of affirmative action...in america a black american or a spanish person needs a 2.5 and a 24 on his MCATs and he`ll get into medical school does this mean that blacks and spanish people are set????? hardly....look at %age of dalit med grads nationwide id still say it would be absymall....are there abuses of affirmative action? yes.....i knew a blond haired egyptian guy who applied to Howard Med on an african american basis if that isnt abuse i dont know what is..............as per the killing of shia doctors this is because of the terrorism of SSP which the govt has condemned and most mainstream parties have condemned ...................but no province in pakistan colludes with extremist groups in the genocide of minorities as in india..........the murder of shias in pakistan is done by hardline extremist groups it is not wholescale and there are no such thing as shia sunni riots......whereas in india this is not the case............well lets leave hinduism and islam out of this

Prem #436
`they only see what they want to see`. The whole 3/4D space needs to be distorted to accomodate a single point extrapolation..

`` Being an optimist is sometimes a tough job.``

Needless to say, the patience and optimism of Zafar, dost-mittar, shammi, yourself and others in imparting cartesian geometry is awe-inspiring. I must say hobbyt is generally patient too :)

Banjaara#419, Prem #426
Singing ballads of Alha Udal seem to be rather widespread in UP/MP. Where my family comes from (Agra/Gwalior) its apparently a wellknown tradition. Here is one link to a Bundelkhandi Aalha tradition which is quite different in singing style and perhaps words too:

http://www.beatofindia.com/forms/aalha.htm

The original website seems to have quite a collection of folk songs from many regions:
http://www.beatofindia.com/mainpages/forms.htm

Banjaara, I can only add two lines randomly remembered in my family from it:

Alha Udal bade ladaaiya
Unki maar sahi na jaaye
..
shagun vichare baaman baniya
jo sir-dhar-mohar vivahan jaa`nye
shagun vichare hum ka kshatri
jo raN chaDhke loh chabaa`nye
..

Prem

Amusing post but flawed study:

How do you justify the conclusions, when you do not account for the fact that the respondents did not become aware of the querry at the same time?

on the other hand we have one bit of data that we can rely on, when asked your caste, you responded immediately.

Prem,

I came to this ``referendum`` late...heheh, seems like I missed out on some fun. BTW, are you trying to prove a point to Prof Hobbs? Dont bother, the man is TOTALLY prejudiced. No matter what you say, he`ll stick to his guns. If you try & debate with him, he ``accuses`` you of being ``defensive``. Evidently, he thinks he`s God & he`s always right & he wonders why we get annoyed by him?!.

Personally, I wish I WAS``NT brahmin. I cursed my fate that I was born into a brahmin household & wrote an article on Chowk re the reverse discrimination I`ve personally experienced in India. Ofcourse, many sanctimonious Indians dissed me for complaining. They felt that because of the ``sins of my ancestors``, I should happily accept my lot in life.

Let me stick my neck out & make an assumption. If Shridhar lived in Tamil Nadu all his life, he would have faced the brunt of ``reverse discrimination`` there. Shridhar, I`d be very interested in knowing if my assumption is correct.

One of my uncles works for a Govt agency in India (the equivalent to the FDA in the US). One day, he & a few of his coworkers were in the office cafeteria having lunch. He cracked a joke about dalits. What he did`nt realise was that one of his coworkers was a dalit. This man lodged an official complaint.

This was about 10 years ago. My uncle said it was the WORST mistake in his life! He had to go through several ``official`` inquisitions. He has`nt been given a promotion because it is now an official part of his personnel record. What he found, in retrospect, was that this coworker was competing for the same promotion as he was. All the other coworkers who were present were officially subpoened for the inquiries & had to testify under oath! Even when they all testified that my uncle just said it jokingly, it was considered politically incorrect, because there is a ``zero tolerence`` policy in govt.

So, if you work in a govt job in India, you have to be VERY CAREFUL what you say, even in jest, otherwise you`re TOAST! Thats how much power the dalits have today. If you apply to any college run by the govt (most are)...fully 25-33% of seats are reserved for ``backward classes``. This policy has been going on for several decades. I graduated from medical college about 25 yrs ago & the reservation system was in full force even then...not just in getting admission in medical college...EVEN after you get your MBBS degree, 1/3rd of the post-graduate houseposts (residency)-are reserved for dalits!

So, atLEAST for the past 30 yrs or so, dalits have been given an unprecedented opportunity to advance themselves...not on merit, but because they had the GOOD fortune to be born in a ``lower`` caste household. All these guys now are prominent physicians & specialist consultants in Bombay. All they had to do was SCRAPE through their exams!

Prominent shia doctors are being ASSASINATED in Karachi & their murderers are hardly ever caught! Jesus Christ!! If dalit doctors ever got assassinated like that in Bombay(or ANYWHERE in India), there will be such a HUGE hue & cry, that it could bring ANY govt down!!

Ofcourse if that EVER happened, the good Prof Hobbs will jump up & down and sanctimoniously proclaim how ``Hinduism is morally neutered by caste!``

Hey professor sahib?! If shia doctors are murdered in COLD BLOOD in Pakistan , is it fair for me to proclaim that ``Islam is morally neutered by sect?!`` You shameless SOB, when you point one finger at us, there are 3 more pointing back at you!!

A GREAT STEP TOWARDS A MORE EQUITABLE HINDU SOCIETY

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/080502/detnat01.asp

Dalits eye new rites in UP...

Tarannum Manjul

(Lucknow, May 7)





In a few days from now, another - the last and most decisive - bastion of the Hindu upper castes is set to fall in Uttar Pradesh. With the graduation of the first batch of curriculum-trained priests in the state, several Dalit pundits will be ready to offer their services for the entire range of traditional Hindu rites.

The class of 2002 in the UP Sanskrit Sansthan`s paurohitya (priesthood) course includes several Dalit and other non-Brahmin students. The three-month course that was started in February, aimed at training students in the range of karmakand rites from mundan and vivah sanskar (marriage) to vrats (fasts) and tyohar (festivals).

The students have been trained by priests who were picked from a large pool of Sanskrit scholars in the state.

The scholars were given extensive training before being asked to fan out in the districts to impart their knowledge to priesthood-hopefuls. With the course now nearing completion almost everywhere, lists of successful trainees have begun to come in - they will receive certificates, and will be recognised as `registered pundits` qualified to perform karmakand rites.

re: sadna # 424

All of us see the world around us in our idiosyncratic ways. In Hobbyty`s worldview, caste is India and India is caste; forever the twain shall remain one. It is fixed view, frozen in time, subject to no known laws of nature.

You, I, dost-mitar, shammi (zafarbhai is a particularly favorite victim) have all been through the mind-breaking logical merry-go-round with him, all to no avail. Faced with this worldview, what can one do?

I am hoping that an analysis of the raw objectivity (or the lack thereof) of his statements might make a tiny dent. This is a time-consuming excercise, one I would normally avoid. Yet, the unrelenting Niagara of hobbyty`s opaque words (not to mention their utter unreality and often brazen immorality) drives one to make one last attempt...

Being an optimist is sometimes a tough job.

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re:Reply #: 422

Zafar,

Time was when one could spot a TamBram by his/her name. Names like Shanbhgambal or Pushpavalli were typically brahmin names. These names were usually highly sanskritised. Then in the 60s onwards (i think), a lot of these names were inspired by the north indian names. We have now Manoj, Harish, Ritika, Shreya etc as names of TamBrams. The issue is further complicated by the fact that even non-brahmins have sanskritised names now. It is difficult to make an intelligent guess as to the caste of a person from his/her name alone.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 420

Prem,

Excellent analysis. Of course some confounding factors would be: how soon the respondent read your request to identify his/her caste. Also, it is a fact that numerically, brahmins are a minority. The results reflect as such. Still, a great analysis. I hope hobbyty is careful in future.

Sridhar

Chacha Hobby

``As for me, I think caste is - not bad, but evil! and it shames me that persons still find caste affiliation relevent.

``

Dont worry Chacha Hobby. We dont take no nonsense from anybody, be it Brahmin, Rajput or Vaishya/bania. Brahmins love to talk and eat. The village pundits will put even Texans to shame with their obesity(Prem may be an exception). Some of the brahmins are truly intellectual while most of the others try to pass themselves as intellectuals. Aheers( yadavas, gurjars etc) dont make a pretense of intellectualism. There is a simple but effective philosophy that we follow. Aheer talks to his opponent patiently for the first time, next time he lets his ``laathee`` do all the talking. A laathee blow is just enough to bring the adversary to his senses and yet not fatal. A lathee is a very effective weapon to resist injustice, while still being relatively ``peaceful and non-violent``. May be if you guys replace your Kalashnikov culture by our laathee culture, Pakistan may become paradise.

PS Sorry if I hurt the sentiments of anyone by generalisation.

Zafar #421,

how dare you question my identity?

Zafar Al-Talib

get real - you are not accountiung for govt regs against discrimination - these regs have to be broad but while they are broad, they do not account for the kinds of problems I referred to.

Women soldiers - rape as a weapon of war and terror - generally is used against women.

Can just please be real for second - for how many male soldiers is rape a concern - whereas it is most definitely a concern for women soldiers.

What is ``lower caste politics``? how does it work? how is different from other types? I`m not trying to irritate you - I don`t know and want to know what it is.

Seems we are stuck on is caste unique or not and disagree - OK -

Prem

An amusing but poorly constructed study - I request you restructure the study and reorganize the data correctly and then reevaluate the validity of your conclusions:

Item 1) if we were to assert that your conclusions are correct - how will we account for the fact that different posters became aware of the querry at different times - if they had all become aware of the querry at the same time and then decided to out their caste affiliation, we could say that given equal encouragements at the same time, Brahmins do not demonstrate an ease with giving up their caste affiliation. Yet the the exact opposite has been show with data available - If one were to divide the data by querrys - that is one for me and one for you -

you, Brahmin, responded immediately to my querry -Seems to me that data do not suggest your conclusion. I think that even as some brahmin poo poo the notion of caste consciousness, they do so with realization that they are on the top of the pecking order.

item 2 ``Did Brahmins reveal their caste because they faced less encouragement``

Was the encouragement I offered Prem less than or greater than or equal to what prem offered other Hindu Indians? how do we gauge it - lets agree that it was equal - how do again account for the possibility that the Hindu indian posters became aware of this querry, this encouragement at the same time?

And make up your minds - you want to be referred to as Hindus or Indians?

re: banjaara # 419

Jesus, banjaara bhaiyaa!

I have been searching for words to that Aallha myself. I checked around to see if anybody brought out any CD or something....NO success.

Anybody knows? Please help.

Prem #420
(Shrimati Lajwanti, zara do minute udhar moonh pher lijiye, aur khabardaar rona shuru kiya tho)

`` Part 2: The level/kind of ``encouragement`` required by different Hindus to reveal their caste affliations.``

Prem, I have had an extended discussion on caste with hobbyt on at least 2-3 occasions in the past. For this reason, I skipped reading hobbyt`s original assertion #348, and didnot reply even when Stuka brought it up.

Kindly take this `wassa point?` factor into account for not mentioning my caste origins until you asked, in your praiseworthy and painstakingly exact analysis. At this time, I think this makes hobbyt`s hypothesis more wrong, but you are the boss.

Contrary to others experiences, I didnot know `my` caste until I was in the first/second year of college(I had to check with my mom when I was asked by someone what it was).

hobbyt #416
``As for me, I think caste is - not bad, but evil! and it shames me that persons still find caste affiliation relevent.``

Hatred of Hindus and hypocrisy strikes again(hhh syndrome). What the heck were self-righteous types like hobbyt doing when Pakistani Army was pitting Pashtuns against Tajiks and Uzbeks for the last 20+ years?

Why do people still claim allegiance to clans like Afridi and Yusufzai and have surnames such as Shah, etc? Why were tribal allegiances so relevant to Pakistanis? Do Pakistani Muslims like hobbyt not have a conscience that says divisions and wars based on tribes and ethnicities are evil?

I am very curious, why was Musharraf declared a Syed before the referendum, even on chowk?

Reply Hobbyty # 413

“Zafar, I regret your unwillingness to tackle the issue”

Hobbyty, did you go to school to learn how to be this irritating or is a gift from God? If school, please share the address with us so we can all go and learn. If a gift from Duniya Ke Maalik…I don’t know whether to congratulate you or commiserate.

“The position is not that men and women should not have or do not have rights as human beings - human rights - the issue is how do we understand this given obvious differences between them - eg. A position is open, it requires a physical strength - the employer does not think a woman can handle it - but hires the woman anyway (govt reg.) then it turn out that it is too physical for the woman”

Alright, let’s go through this example logically.

What the job requires: physical strength.

What the applicants can be objectively tested for: physical strength.

The criterion which decides which applican gets the job: physical strength.

Now do you see ANY reference to ovaries and related secondary sexual characteristics here? Was any such reference necessary?

Granted, some women are physically weaker than you. On the other hand, there are some women who can kill a horse with one hand. (OK, I’m assuming that, like me, you can’t do this.) Isn’t it ridiculous to assume a single condition is valid for all women and another condition valid for all men, unless we are actually talking about XY chromosomes?

“Women soldier and the issue of rape.”

Tell me how this differs fundamentally from Male soldiers and the issue of death. Include discussion, where relevant, of risk, choice and social obligations and rights.

“And whatever happened to our discussion of caste?”

I won!!!!! Congratulate me?

No? Ok, see Shandana Minhas’ board – responding to your caste related post there.

(Sheesh, so aggro yaar…)

Regards

Zafar

PS Re: the identification of Brahmins, etc., let me tell you a secret – just as you can probably identify Hindus and Muslims from their names, people who are interested in these things can usually tell the caste of an individual’s family (at least paternal side) from their last names (and often where they are from in India as well). While this does leave these things mysteries for those with random handles, RSaxena’s Northie – UP? - bania antecedents (I think) are no surprise (unless he’s a TamBram, in which case I am obviously the wrong guy to ask :-) Anyway, my point is, if somebody is concerned with these things, he or she usually doesn’t have to baldly ask. Why have Brahmins been brought up? Which other caste group has such a high profile uss paar, I mean your iss paar…mathlab, did it even occur to you to demand if anybody was a Yadav?

Reply Scout # 408

“i am Kshatriya”

Um…we don’t have the caste system, last I checked…not that I am saying you shouldn`t be who you are...

scout

A scout is a scout is a very good scout. No need to be anything else.

Everyone else who participated in my little survey:

Thank you all. I am truly grateful. We can meet utter ignorance only with the light of knowledge.

Hobbyty,

I hope you see that your earlier hypothesis that all Hindus on Chowk are brahmins was not true. Now, you have advanced a second thesis.

ASSERTION 2:

``A Brahmin Hindu on Chowk is more willing/requires less encouragement to reveal his/her caste than does a non-Brahmin Hindu.``

We can test that hypothesis as well. The hypothesis implies that on chowk -

(1) Given equal levels of encouragement, Brahmin Hindus will be quicker to share information about their caste than other Hindus.

(2) For both Brahmin Hindus and non-Brahmin Hindus to be equally willing to reveal their caste affliations, brahmin Hindus will require less ``encouragement.``

I will analyze chowk data in two parts, taking the above-mentioned two implications in turn.

Part 1: Order of Revelations of Caste Affiliations by Hindus on Chowk

(1) As of May-5-02 20:49:44 , the order in which Hindus revealed their caste affiliations on Chowk was as follows -

Rank * Person Caste Affiliation

1. Prem: Brahmin (B)

2. Stuka: Non-Brahmin (NB)

3. Dost Mittar: Non-brahmin (NB)

4. Sadhna: Non-Brahmin (NB)

5. Humsab: Non-Brahmin (NB)

6. Jay: Non-Brahmin (NB) (Did I get that right, Jay?)

7. Arjun_M: Brahmin (B) (not that it is an honor :))

8. RSridhar: Brahmin (B)

9. Akash: Non-Brahmin (NB)

* Rank 1 assigned to the individual making the first revelation, rank 9 to the last.

Thus, out of a total of 9 `revelations,`

----- the rank order for brahmins was 1, 7, 8.

-----the rank order for nonbrahmins was 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9.

Were brahmins were quicker to reveal their caste affiliations than non-brhamins? The data support just the opposite conclusion.

Part 2: The level/kind of ``encouragement`` required by different Hindus to reveal their caste affliations.

If Hobbyty`s thesis is correct then Prem, Sridhar, and Arjun-M will require less ``encouragement`` than others to reveal their caste affiliation. The actual data are as follows:

Rank Person Nature/Amount of Encouragement

1. Prem # 294 Hobbyty # 293

2. Stuka # 386 Hobbyty # 348

3. RSaxena # various No encouragement. His declares his nonbrahminhood in his name.

4. Rest # various Prem # 394

Prem (#294) answered a direct personalized question posed to him by Hobbyty (#293): ``What caste are you? Please explain.`` If Prem did not honestly answer this question, he could be legitimately accused of hiding a fact that could otherwise prove Hobbyty`s contention. The ``encouragement`` to Prem was very large, personal, and moral.

Stuka responded to Hobbyty (#348) statement that all Indians (he meant all Hindus but we will overlook that) on Chowk are brahmins. If stuka did not reveal his caste ``status`` he would be accepting a false statement about himself and his family. The ``encouragement`` to Stuka was also large, but it was generalized, not personalized.

RSaxena never needed an encouragement to ``tell`` or reveal his caste. His name tells anybody who knows ANYTHING about India that he is not a brahmin, and/or does not wish to be thought of as one.

All others shared a common form of encouragement. They responded to a call to establish the objective truth. Neither confronting direct personal questions nor countering falsehoods about their individual families, they did not face ``encouragement`` anywhere as large as in the case of #348 and # 293. Non brahmins revealed their castes quickest in response to this common call sent out to brahmins and nonbrahmins alike. Out of 7 responders, 5 were non-brahmins, their rank order being 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 (rank 1 denotes the quickest revelation).

Did brahmins revealed their caste affiliations because they faced ``less`` encouragement than nonbrahmins? Data support just the opposite conclusion.

Thank you.

Data Analysis Notes: In analyzing chowk data mentioned above, I took affirmative action in FAVOR OF hobbyty`s hypothesis, giving it every opportunity to be proven true. Dost-Mittar, the first person to respond to my call, also shared (thank you, DMji) information about many others people, almost all Nonbrahmins. Including these non-brahmin names would demolish both of hobbty`s theses further. But I excluded those names in order to avoid analytical ambiguities. I also counted arjun_m (despite his own delectable uncertainties) among the Brahmins in order to prop up hobbyty`s thesis that all (most) Hindus on Chowk are brahmins. Even after I took these steps, data strongly disproved both of Hobbyty`s theses.



DRUMZ: Bro, you are lucky. Once a person crosses the age of 30, he/she loses all sense of proportion, getting drawn into completely MORONIC debates. All this after REPEATED pledges to oneself about avoiding certain kind of discussions :)

Akash # 415

Would you by any chance know the complete poem

which is one of the most reverred amongst the Yadav`s of UP.

Alha Udal baRe laRRayya

jin se haar gaee talwar

Will appreciate if you or anyone else can complete it.

Regards.

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Few days away from chowk and looks like we got typecast(e). Ah yes the ``C`` word and the cast(e) of characters is being revealed. Who cast(e) the first stone here?

I could tell you but I really don`t want to...So sorry not casting any votes here.

Akash

Chacha Hobby never asked you what your caste was -he asked Prem what caste he, prem, was - So if you and other non-Brahmins have opted to out your caste affiliation - that is between you and Prem.

As for me, I think caste is - not bad, but evil! and it shames me that persons still find caste affiliation relevent.

I consider myself only as an Indian, nothing more, nothing less. I strictly oppose any sort of caste system in Hinduism. According to me, Swami Dayananda and Vivekananda preached the true essence of Hinduism. But if Chacha Hobby insists, let him know that I belong to the caste of Lord Krishna, the Yadavas. And this caste is enlisted as a ``backward caste`` if this is what you want to know hobby.

Prem, Assorted Hindu and non-Hindu Indians

Thank you for number of posts identifying your caste - if you are representative of most Hindus Indians - then it is fair to say, that most hindu Indians on Chowk are not Brahmins.

Is this the first time you have outed yourselves by caste? Also, I noticed, and may be I a wrong, jujst an observation - Brahmin Hindus do not seem to need a lot of encouragement to out themselves by caste, at least relative to other Hindu caste -is this an observation you share?

Zafar Al-Talib

Zafar, I regret your unwillingness to tackle the issue - The position is not that men and women should not have or do not have rights as human beings - human rights - the issue is how do we understand this given obvious differences between them - eg. A position is open, it requires a physical strength - the employer does not think a woman can handle it - but hires the woman anyway (govt reg.) then it turn out that it is too physical for the woman - Women soldier and the issue of rape.

Before you respond - once again, the issue is not the larger human rights - but the practical, the everyday implication.

And whatever happened to our discussion of caste?

Caste is another human rights issue you say - yes, it is - does that mean it is not an issue connected with Hinduism? Do most Hindus or Indians see caste as a ``human rights`` issue? Or if we discuss caste must we generalize to include all isues of human rights?

To get our conversation back on track, what did you think of the article Alpha posted? What the heck are ``lower caste politics``? and how are they differentiated from ``upper caste politics`` If ``lower caste politics`` attenuates violence between religious communities - how does it do it? and why doesn`t this apply at a national level?

re:Reply #: 402

AAmir,

It is a shame. As an NRI i can tell you i do not support BJP after the Gujarat carnage. USA is full of Gujjus who are pro-BJP. It is a pity that the land where Gandhi was born has become the most violent place in India today.

Sridhar

re: caste

Prem,

I am a brahmin. You would have guessed it if you had read my posts directed at one of the chowkies who has been writing nasty things about brahmins.

Sridhar

MINORITY GROUPS

Hindus, Sikhs say they still face threats in Afghanistan

By Indira A.R. Lakshmanan, Globe Staff, 5/6/2002

HOST, Afghanistan - They no longer have to wear yellow badges like the Jews under Nazi rule, but little else has changed for Afghanistan`s religious minorities, the Hindus and Sikhs.



One year ago, the Taliban provoked an international outcry with a decree that Hindus and Sikhs must identify themselves to the feared religious police by wearing patches, turbans, or veils of saffron yellow, the holy color of the two religions.

Four months ago, a new government took office, promising equal rights for all Afghans. Yet many Hindus and Sikhs say that life is no better - and in some cases, is worse - under the new Afghan flag.

Despite the end of official discrimination and kind words from the new leaders in Kabul, Sikhs and Hindus have no schools for their children, no access to government jobs or university education, no seats on the commission that set rules for electing a new government, and no protection from warlords who have seized their lands and homes.

``During the Taliban, we were first put in jail and then forced to wear yellow turbans and brown skullcaps, but at least we had law and order,`` said Bajan Singh, 27, a Sikh.

A few months ago, he said, his land and house were confiscated by a local commander in this eastern city near the Pakistani border.

``After the Taliban left, it`s turmoil in this city,`` said Bajan Singh, who like many Sikh men uses the last name Singh, as many women use the last name Kaur. ``By night, burglars rob our houses. By day, thieves steal from us. The police station closest to us harasses us.

``One of my brothers was kidnapped by security guards from this area, and we had to pay ransom,`` he said, lowering his voice to a whisper. ``We are stopped everywhere, and many don`t dare to go out of the house.``

Cooped up in walled compounds, a virtually invisible community that is among the poorest in Afghanistan has been overlooked even by the international aid agencies that came to help the needy after the fall of the Taliban. Programs have been created for women and ethnic minorities who were persecuted under the Taliban, but not for Hindus and Sikhs, the only non-Muslims here in any numbers.

Hinduism in Afghanistan dates back at least to the seventh century, when a Chinese traveler reported Hindu kingdoms in Kabul and Ghazni. In 1992, the community whose ancestors emigrated from what is now India numbered 50,000. When the mujahideen defeated the Soviet-backed regime that year, soldiers ran rampant in minority communities, burning homes and raping women, spurring an exodus to India that continued over the last decade of civil war and Taliban repression. The community dwindled to about 2,000 people in seven cities.

Because of their tiny numbers and related faiths, the Hindu and Sikh communities in Afghanistan have merged, sharing temples and residential compounds, even though their coreligionists in India have often been at odds. Those who remain in Afghanistan say they were simply too poor to flee.

Under the former king, Mohammed Zahir Shah, and later the communist government of the 1980s, Sikhs and Hindus held respected positions as doctors, engineers, and civil servants. They had two parliamentary representatives until the early 1990s, when the Islamic mujahideen government banned them from official jobs and college placements, restrictions that have not yet been lifted.

The situation is particularly bad for the 176 Sikhs and Hindus here in Khost, with Kandahar one of two former Taliban strongholds where authorities succeeded in forcing them to wear yellow last year. (In Kabul, Sikh leaders defeated the decree by threatening to move the entire community out of Afghanistan.) Men here were beaten and jailed for three days and then were marched around the town center wearing the new headgear so everyone would know they were not Muslims.

Looking back on that period, Singh considers the Taliban`s discriminatory dress code ``a minor problem`` compared to his current woes. Like many Afghan Sikhs, he wears a Muslim-style skullcap and ignores his religion`s prohibition against haircutting.

A local commander has seized land and houses, even cemetery plots, of Hindus and Sikhs for his personal use, according to community elders. They say that guards at a nearby checkpoint did nothing when a car was stolen and its driver beaten in front of the compound where Hindus and Sikhs now live.

A dozen Hindus and Sikhs who opened video and music shops to capitalize on the renewed popularity of Indian movies after the fall of the Taliban keep their shutters half-closed since two bombings targeted their businesses. Unsigned pamphlets spread before the February attacks warned that those who sell or use ``things prohibited by Islam will face the consequences.``

Video store owners Jagjeet Singh and Seeda Nand escaped injury, but lost $1,000 each in inventory when their shops were bombed. Despite the danger of a fresh attack, they can`t afford to start new businesses. The front of Gopal Singh`s music shop was destroyed by another bomb, and his terrified landlord terminated his lease, leaving Gopal Singh broke and jobless.

``Like other Afghans, we`d like the right to live somewhere else, not just in this compound,`` said Khost community leader Prakash Lal, 76, gesturing toward the dilapidated mud dwellings of the compound, which stretch for blocks.

They also want a new temple, ``so we can pray freely and comfortably,`` Lal said, gesturing miserably at their bombed-out house of worship. It was sacked by a local commander in 1992 to avenge the destruction of a mosque in India by Hindu extremists.

In Kabul, community leader Autar Singh, 39, is more optimistic than Lal, thanks to a recent visit from interim leader Hamid Karzai. Yet Singh admitted his pleas for assistance have yet to yield any results.

The community`s top wish is for a teacher, because their children can`t go to school without enduring hurled stones and insults. In its heyday, Kabul`s Sikh and Hindu community had a school for 5,000 children; today, they have 100 youngsters and not one teacher.

``In terms of freedom, our lives are much better now, and we have good relations with officials in Kabul,`` said Autar Singh, who displays his loyalty to Afghanistan on his office walls, where framed portraits of Karzai and Northern Alliance hero Ahmad Shah Massood share space with posters of temples in India.

``But economically, our lives are approaching zero,`` he said with a sigh. ``All the other ethnic groups are getting help from the government, the aid agencies, or the United Nations. Why not us?``

This story ran on page A1 of the Boston Globe on 5/6/2002

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Prem,

i am Kshatriya

Dost Mittar #395:

I am non-Brahmin and not a Hindu by religion.

--Satyavadi

prem,

It is this urge to know the truth and to accept it is wahat makes an indian different from a pakistani. For a pakistani, none your statistics collection matters, it is the pakistani education system that has been drilled into them in the pak.org history that guides their action, learning in the early childhood that one can see through in YLH, romair and others where higher education makes no difference to their world view.

I have said once before, my family of one brother and four sisters are doctors and engineers, most with masters degrees, thanks to the caste based reservation system. If india has progressed, it is because of the belief of my generation, that you need no connection, no influence and no money to achieve progress, and no family can demonstrate it better than mine, children of illiterate poor parents. And probaly no one can prove it better than my classmate, who walked with me for an hour to go to primary school, and now runs the US$ ten billion Reliance refinary in Jamnagar.

regards

Jay

Me `Vaishya`

Reply Jayparkash #390

``It is the shaheed concept that makes islam unique and ensure that jihadic frontiers will always be a line of bloodshed. The muslims from all over the world converged in afghanistan in large numbers seeking tickets to heaven, so is the case in kashmir, philippines. People have to realise the religious dimension of these frontiers. What the world needs is guidelines and global cooperation to control the jihadic frontiers.``

Wjhyy ou are write to me? Do you knowDeepka?

Whatworldneeding is guidelinea nd globl cooperatings to control DEEPKA!

re jay

``What the world needs is guidelines and global cooperation to control the jihadic frontiers.``

Control? I don`t think so. The word is crush. Not only the physical, but the very ideological and psychological support mechanisms of this cancer need to be destroyed with the mercilessness of Genghiz Khan, the Inquisition, and Nazi Germany combined. Even those who provide `diplomatic` or `moral` support to this cancer should be held fully acountable. This, sir, is one battle that no quarter can be given.

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re: Prem

{I therefore, request you to kindly take a minute of your time to tell us the caste you were born into.}

...this is like when you meet most indians in the US, the first question the twits will ask is if you`re gujju, punjabi, sindhi, etc...so irritating...what goddamn difference does it make...that pretty much sums up my feelings about this question as well...sorry...

Prem #395
I am Brahmin, Kshatriya,
Vaisya, Shudra, Dalit, Muslim, Sikh, Christian, Jain, Buddhist, Jew, Parsi, commie atheist, dravidian atheist, Nicobar Island headhunter, animist etc(though NOT a scientologist, or Moonie, those guys have to manage without me :)). As an Indian, I am all these.

Vaise, I am a Vaisya/bania.

Stuka, Akash, Hobbyty

I don`t agree with hobbyty`s ideas, but his conclusion that Chowk has only brahmin Indians is intriguing. If that allegation is true, then we are surely in for an unpleasant surprise. This is not a trivial matter. We ought to investigate it.

A REQUEST TO ALL HINDU INDIAN CHOWKIES -

Folks, you are all aware that caste is and has been a major issue confronting us Indians. Irrespective of our individual attitudes toward it, we would acknowledge that the custom of caste does continue to affect Indian society. In this light, whether Hindu Indians on Chowk are only those born in brahmin families (or even mostly so) is NOT a trivial question. And we Indians can never run from the truth, even if it is bitter.

I therefore, request you to kindly take a minute of your time to tell us the caste you were born into. Since your caste per se is of no significance, all we would be interested in knowing is whether or not you belong to a brahmin family.

Name: Brahmin/Non-brahmin

Prem: Brahmin

stuka: ?

Shankar: ?

Shammi: ?

Dost-Mittar: ?

RSaxena: ?

Harimau: ?

Jay: ?

tvarad: ?

arjun_m: ?

Akash: ?

rsridhar:?

soysauce: ?

sadna: ?

subroto: ?

HN: ?

Humbsab:

Roohi: ?

soundmeister:?

ANY OTHER?

Apologies if I have wrongly included your name in the list of Hindu Indians. If your name is not included and you are a Hindu Indian (or a Hindu Pakistani), please count yourself in!

PRIVACY NOTES:

(1) Some of you may be hesitant to publicly reveal information that most of us would deem quite irrelevant. If that is so, PLEASE drop me a one-liner at eklavya786@hotmail.com

(2) Rest assured, I will NOT sell, or in anyway reveal to ANY THIRD PARTY, private information thus acquired.

I am sure you understand that we can not arrive at any meaningful conclusion unless we have information on ALL (or MOST) people. So, do participate.

Come on, folks, it is important to have OBJECTIVE information about who we are. Help me out here.

Many thanks in anticipation.

Akash

You`re such a tease - promise? come get you some.

Chacha Hobby

Tere ko kisne bola mein Brahmin hoon. I am not a brahmin, okay. I am neither brahmin nor baniya. But I will still kick the hell out of you.

Lajwanti ,

It is the shaheed concept that makes islam unique and ensure that jihadic frontiers will always be a line of bloodshed. The muslims from all over the world converged in afghanistan in large numbers seeking tickets to heaven, so is the case in kashmir, philippines. People have to realise the religious dimension of these frontiers. What the world needs is guidelines and global cooperation to control the jihadic frontiers.

regards

Jay

Zafar and Hobbyty

Glad to see you two trying to get to the HEART of the matter. I am keenly following your dialogue.

Zafar Al-Talib

I was not suggesting different human rights - I am agreed that these cannot be different - these are ``Human`` rights.

I was asking for assitance in better understanding, or rather not falling into a trap of saying mean and women are the same - of course they are the same as far ``Human`` is concerned - I do have difficulty in carrying it further, to say, mean are same as women.

having agreed on ``human`` rights - I also, see a problem, with the notion of ``equality`` - not as ``humans`` but in the kinds of space that must be created in our agreement on the meanings of several things, as the equality of womenas huamn persons? makes itself felt to a greater degree in society - here I have in mind, the particular differences beween man and women. Whacha ya think?

Reply Hobbyty #383

“Gender discrinimation - good or bad ? Again - if we take an overarching position, which is the desired - looking at mena and women as the group, humans but I fear the qualifications we seek to avoid will come back to haunt us - if effect we would be saying men are no different from women - and that just is not the case - yes, they are both human but moving away from this group, looking at the as particular - we cannot escape the distictions that again will bring the qualifications into play. What do you think of these objections?”

The fact that adult human beings are DIFFERENT from each other is not a sound basis for saying that they have different human rights.

Equality for all adults does not assume that difference between them is not meaningful or profound. Only that difference does not mean less or more worth or capability, as reflected in rights and obligations.

This IS a different pov from at least traditional understandings of Sharia, where women have fewer rights and also fewer obligations – what seems like a permanent status of legal minority.

??

HobbyTy

``“…Indians on Chowk are all Brahmins, of course, one never runs across any other than Brahmins – “"

??????? Dude, what makes you think I am a Bamman? No way, Jose. I am a Khatri, as Ali#1 found out eons ago...don`t even remember how. Fully Non Vegetarian, Beef Eating, Pork Eating, Alcohol comsuming Khatri

#379 dost-mittarsaab

“hobbyty#370

The ``Daily Times`` article you posted is right on the money. [Is it an Indian newspaper?]”

….it’s a pakistani newspaper from lahore recently stared by najam sethi….dailytimes.com.pk if you’re interested….

What makes Palestinian suicide bombers tick? Not the Koran, media pundits are quick to say.

They maintain they are martyrs for a political, not religious, cause and are only resorting to such violent extremes to defend against an oppressive Israeli military. The media romanticize the heinous bombings as the desperate struggle of the downtrodden.

Given the alarming toll of innocent Israelis (not to mention Americans) recently slaughtered by Islamic suicide attacks, this is a particularly noxious batch of politically correct swill to swallow.

And those in the media who know better should be ashamed of themselves for peddling it. They are nothing but professional liars. Others too lazy to read the Koran to independently verify the spin of ``moderate`` Muslim scholars are guilty of intellectual malpractice.

If you read the Koran (the Muslim-approved Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation), you discover that martyrdom is the only guaranteed ticket to Paradise for Muslims.

But don`t take my word for it. Listen to a former radical Shiite Muslim tell it.

``The only way Muslims can have assurance of salvation and eternal life is by becoming a martyr for the cause of Islam,`` said Reza F. Safa, author of ``Inside Islam.``

``To a Muslim,`` he added, ``dying and killing for the cause of Islam is not only an honor, but also a way of pleasing Allah.``

That explains how a Palestinian grandmother could proudly pose with her beaming teen-age grandson for a final photograph knowing that just hours later he would strap himself with explosives and eviscerate Israeli ``infidels`` – and himself – in the name of Allah. This adoring old woman was actually celebrating the boy`s imminent death, as if he were about to cross the stage at his high-school graduation ceremony. But to her, a death certificate sealed by Allah meant more than any diploma. She said she was happy – overjoyed that her grandson would soon disembowel himself – because she knew he would be instantly transported to a better place.

Where does she get such faith? From the Koran.

Meanwhile, the pubescent grandson dreamed of the carnal pleasures awaiting him in Paradise – ``Companions with beautiful, big and lustrous eyes ... virgin-pure and undefiled`` – just as the Muslim prophet Muhammad promised in the Koran (Surah 56:22,35-36).

And such Koranic promises explain how the father of another young Palestinian, who set off a bomb on a crowded commuter bus, could gush, ``My son will go to heaven`` – as if he had just scored the winning touchdown at the homecoming game in front of Ivy League scouts. Most fathers would be bawling their eyes out over such a senseless loss.

Safa says local Muslim clerics recite to such young men the verses from the Koran that promise the reward of Paradise, and all its oddly non-spiritual perks, if they die while fighting the ``unbelievers`` – Jews and Christians – in the name of Allah.

```Are you ready for martyrdom?``` the young man is asked. ```Yes, yes,` he repeats,`` Safa said, explaining the ritual. ``He is then given the oath on the Koran.``

``These young men leave the meeting with one determination: to kill,`` he said.

Of course, the same media pundits who like to pretend Palestinians are fighting a political war for freedom and are only using suicide as a ``cheap defense weapon,`` argue that the Koran forbids suicide. They claim clerics twist the meaning of the salient passages in the Koran to imply martyrdom paves the way to Paradise.

But don`t be fooled. Typical of Islam`s apologists, they are merely cherry picking verses to try to make the Koran seem less violent than it is.

Yes, the Koran tells Muslims not to ``kill or destroy yourselves`` (Surah 4:29) – but only when doing so is outside t