On Hate

Chacha Urstruly

Is there something wrong with you. Tabeeyat to theek hai aapki. I think it is high time you start posting the ``stuff``. This chacha- bhateeza thing was never your cup of tea. Okay lets start with Kashmir or ``Penis-god``, take your pick.

Reply # 59 Zafar Al-Talib

[``The fact that it happened is the main issue. What the “Muslim World” said or not is peripheral. With the “Muslim World’s” moral support and two dollars I can buy a cup of coffee.``]

Happened? When did it stop happening? It is happening even today and will continue to happen till the bakras break their silence and begin to kick before being slaughtered.

Forget the coffee, the best course of action for you is to embrace Islam and apply for political asylum at the nearest Pakistani consulate.

PAKISTANIS:

Please note this:

- There are 104 refugee camps in Gujurat where Gujurati Muslims are living in sub-human conditions with no chances of rehabilitation anytime in the future. Indian PM has clearly blamed the Indian Muslims for their situation.

- Indian Govt. is getting ready to hold elections in Gujurat. BJP will win with an overwhelming majority if Indian commentators are to be believed. Moral of the story: Muslim genocide, rape, murder and pillage pays rich electoral dividends in India.

- BJP would want to repeat the Muslim genocide India-wide so that it can hold national elections and come back with a solid majority. Indian muslims in UP, Hyderabad and Maharashtra will give a slightly better account of themselves as compared with Gujurati Muslims, but as of today they are NOT equipped to face a full fledged onslaught of the facist Hindu majority.

- We must demand of our government to provide all possible help to Indian Muslims in advance so that they are better equipped to face the maudaring Hindu hordes who are preparing RIGHT NOW for the genocide. (Note how the police officers who tried to resist Hindus in Gujurat have already been transferred in anticipation of the next round.)

- The next few months will be harsh for Indian Muslims, but will also offer some opportunities to Pakistan. I forsee thousands of refugee camps like the Shah Alam refugee camp all over India. I forsee hundreds of MPs (or prominent muslims) like Ehsan Jafri, burnt to death after watching the rape of his daughters. I forsee several hundred thousand muslims killed and injured. But I also forsee substantial retaliation like Bombay in 1993 repeated all over India..... which can set India afire and burn it to the ground.... only if the Pakistani govt. steps in and equips Indian muslims with the necessary tools.

``To be raped is even worse than being burnt to death...`` Unknown Woman

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectNh.asp?cid=190487

16 April 2002 TEHELKA

The trauma of being a Muslim and a woman

According to a fact-finding team, Muslim women in Gujarat are being subjected to the most heinous forms of sexual violence in the riot-ridden state, reports Rinku Pegu

New Delhi, April 16

Will the United Nations Human Rights Commission spare a thought for the gruesome acts of sexual violence being perpetuated against Muslim women in Gujarat? Rape and gangrape of women and even minors are virtually daily ordeals for Muslim women who have escaped the communal carnage in Gujarat.

This is what a six-member fact-finding team discovered in the refugee camps and shelters of Gujarat.

Representing various women`s organizations, the six- member team covered the six districts of Gujarat where the riots took place, visiting not only the towns but also interior villages. Creating much apprehension and alarm, one aspect of the Gujarat riots was that this was the first time that communal riots, which were formerly confined to ghettos in cities, engulfed the hinterland and villages.

A booklet brought out by the fact-finding team called ``How has the Gujarat Massacre Affected Minority Women?`` is replete with incidents of violence that the Muslim women were subjected to. One of the rape survivors, Sultani, narrated how while escaping in a tempo truck, the vehicle overturned forcing the passengers to flee. Sultani was caught from behind, thrown to the ground and gangraped with her two-year-old son still clinging to her arms. In another such incident, Kusum Bibi narrated how she saw the genitals of a 16-year-old girl being split open after she was raped.

Incidentally, the National Commission for women (NCW) is yet to come out with a single statement on the violence meted out to Muslim women in the communal rioting at Gujarat. An independent statutory body, the NCW is expected to be in the forefront of such events.

Farah Naqvi, an independent journalist who was part of the fact-finding team, described that visiting the various refugee camps in Gujarat and talking to the women there reminded her of the rape camps that existed in Bosnia which no one knew about till outsiders went on a fact-finding mission.

What was emphasised by the panel is that the violence against women should not go unpunished. The rapists must be brought to book. Here it is important to note that since medical proof of the violence as required under the Indian law would be long gone (for medical validity, a rape victim has to be examined within 48 hours of the attack) it is necessary to bring in testimony as evidence for prosecution.

Sheba Joseph, who was also part of the fact-finding team, said, ``The women really need the healing touch of knowing that the perpetrators do not go scot-free. This is because their confidence and faith in the system has been completely eroded. They are so afraid that they ask, `who will lodge our FIRs? The police will not hear`.`` There are indeed blatant examples of where the very institutions that were meant to protect the citizens have turned predators.

Despite the state government`s claim that FIRs are being lodged and action taken the ground reality shows otherwise. On top of that, whatever little FIRs that are lodged are registered against mobs. Because a mob is not an individual, it cannot be identified and punished.

According to Malini Ghosh, another member of the team, people in the camps were willing to talk as if that would mitigate part of their problem. Recounting their sordid plight, several women referred to their experience as a war-like situation. Recalling the appalling conditions in which Muslims are living now, which indicts the state government`s neglect, Malini Ghosh describes how a refugee camp housing not less than 9,000 people has to make do with only 22 toilets.

Outlining the gravity of the situation, Syeda Hamida, another member, pointed out, ``The atrocities and crime committed against Muslim women in Gujarat is in gross violation of the various international treaties and conventions to which India is a signatory.`` According to Hamida, these are enough grounds for the international community to intervene on behalf of the suffering minority community.

re: Zafar Al-Talib # 59

Well said, Zafar. India failed ...she failed on a massive scale. And the failure continues. We are going to struggle with our failure for sometime to come.

Only by recognizing our failures can each one of us play our appointed part - working to put things together. Hindus and Muslims failed to live in peace in Gujarat. We both failed. We created an atomosphere in which blind hatred could take root. We failed to see how our behavior caused fear and resentment among the other. We have to understand the roots of this negativity.

Failure is no crime, not learning from failure is.

Parts of India have fallen sick. When someone`s mother falls sick, they don`t kick her on the belly, or walk out on her, even when they are as disgusted as I am. They hunker down and help her recover.

Or, do we want to be the sons and daughters who will love our mother only so long as she is perfect for us? THAT will be a crime.

Zafar Al-Talib

``The fact that it happened is the main issue. What the “Muslim World” said or not is peripheral. With the “Muslim World’s” moral support and two dollars I can buy a cup of coffee.``

Yes of course you are right about the main issue.

And yes, you are right about the Muslim world`s moral support and cup of coffee as well.

If YOU, do not want a cup of coffee or moral support that is your perogative (or do you think you may ``earn`` your cup of coffee) - others may and do, and my point was that we can only offer such support if we can get our own house in order.

NGOs are quoted as putting the number of dead at 2000 - Do you think this kind of carnage will happen again? If not, what are the reasons for that optimism? Will you be visiting in the state, any time soon, As Zafar Al-Talib, perhaps an eyewitness report?

This is a little scary. Im beginning to think u all are insane. Hatred is not necessarily bad. Flip it. People are good because the hate being bad. ``I would hate to not give money etc.``

Play around with emotions and understand why they make u do what u do. Sometimes be kinder then kind, sometimes kill any mufukka who looks the wrong way. Give the universe some variety!

The main thing is to understand why one does something. This is called KNowledge of SELF. U can use the same reaction in another IF the need arises. Nothin is good or bad.

ylh #66 I see you do indeed have a cutandpaste of one of my posts. I missed it since that post was addressed to Rsaxena and I normally do not read your posts unless they are addressed to me. So, this then is the ``stupid and insulting post`` (as you refer to it) that I wrote:

`` ylh #245 ``BTW, one still remembers the 1997 session of the OIC... `` Wasnt that the year you were born?? What a happy coincidence!!

PS Please dont get mad now. I could not resist the temptation to send in this post.``

I admit the above post makes fun of (a) your tendency to portray yourself as some kind of a child superstar, and (b) your portrayal of the 1997 session of OIC (perhaps the most ineffective of international organizations) as some kind of a memorable event. I dont apologize for this (I would have, if I thought one was in order), since if you write dumb things on chowk, any chowk poster is within his or her rights to ridicule what you say. Any one who was not as full of self-importance as you are would have laughed this post off as a joke anyway. But while you find it easy to dish out insults and abuse, you have proved yourself incapable of taking it. And your posts are among the most ridiculous I have seen, even by internet standards.

And you had to dig 6 boards down to come up with this as an example of a stupid and insulting post from me! And for this you have have been calling me all sorts of names and saying how much you hate me!

I have wasted enough time with you, and do not intend to respond anymore to your posts (as always, unless I change my mind).

Is it a hateful Letter?

What should I do next?

I am a middle class citizen living in Dastagir and earning around Rs15,000 per month. My ailing parents live with me and my two children study in the least expensive schools near home so that I can save their transportation cost, but still I have to pay their fees. My company has given me `no` salary raise during the last three years on the pretext that the company is not doing well.

Successive governments have been continuously raising utility rates along with the rates of all consumer goods and transport fares. Now the time has come for me to take the biggest decision of my life: either to pull out my children from school and put them in a madressah to save school fees or let my parents live without medicines and die early. So, I ask the finance minister of Pakistan to make a monthly budget for me?

Salary Rs15,000

Income tax Rs736

School fees Rs1,000

House rent Rs3,000

Gas Rs400

Electricity Rs700

Medicines Rs2,500

Doctors fees Rs1,000

Bus fares Rs1,000

Food Rs5,000

Milk Rs700

Misc Rs2,000

Total Rs18,036

My expenses are more than my salary. I have not added unforeseen expenses like those of hospitalization, school books, clothes for my children and so on. With every passing day I feel more and more like killing myself and my family.

The government is determined to increase utility rates by 300 per cent in the next three years. All consumables like wheat, sugar, cooking oil, sugar, medicines etc are now much costlier than last year. Fifteen per cent GST has been levied on medicines. Also, the government has announced the introduction of a new finance bill that might increase my income tax by about 100 per cent.

There is no end for me: the only simplest thing that I am considering now is to buy poison, give it to all my family and go to sleep forever. If there is any other option or advice from the honorable minister of finance then please send it to me, soon.

A CITIZEN

Karachi

This is letter from a citzen from karachi.

I just wonder why he is not worried about future of country and history being made in election Day.

This type of attitude to give importance to little personal problems and ignore National problems is root cause of Backwardness.At least EXPAK does not not indulge in little things is good, we learn lot about Jinnah, Gandhi,British India ,Mughal empire, Military stratgey, what is problem with arab economy, oil politics etc ...etc from them. That is where Secular anti fudal, revolutionary,intelluctual ability Expak has more brain than people with bacward with culture as agriculture. This why EXpak dominates pakistan and people driving donkeys. Its sad but true. I get depressed and health goes down. sorry. good luck every body for comming democracy chhap Sultanshahi to save democracy from stupid people. I am going to vote general and hopefully kiss him when he visits karachi. Its just respect showing for saving democracy from stupids and not using democracy (if it is good use sparingly) so my great grand children will have left democracy. Democracy is endangered so should be caged so it does not die and needs to be hybrided with local strong man to have strong democracy.

Keep in mind PK is OK and General Sahib is ok.

General Sahib is ok.

re: Ali1

`The next few months will be harsh for Indian Muslims, but will also offer some opportunities...

Thanks for making your motivations abundantly clear -- you seem to seek perverse pleasure at seeing the plight of a human victim because it offers some opportunities of `profit`. You are no different from the abettors of riots, the killers of innocents, and those who placed wagers on the riot toll. Shame on you.

Reply Hobbyty # 73

Hobbyty

I found it utterly dispicable when Indians exhibited great glee at Pakistan’s troubles vis a vis Afghanistan, American presence, internal conflict, etc. That kind of response to the sufferings of another country (whichever country) and it’s people because it proves some sort of “point” for one’s own country’s sense of history or definition sickened me.

To some extent I reacted the way I did because it seemed that the riots in Gujarat were being used as a rhetorical point to prove a point about what the Ummah should be doing. (As people are using them to “justify” the TNT, Partition, whatever.) Of course it’s your prerogative to use them in that manner, but perhaps you shouldn’t be surprised at an Indian Muslim not being too impressed by that.

‘Yes, and SO?’ is a pretty accurate rendition of my response. ‘Tell me something useful or don’t waste my time.’ Not balanced or fair, but there you go. Apologies extended if you feel they are necessary.

“And yes, you are right about the Muslim world`s moral support and cup of coffee as well.”

Coffee would be great, but let’s not pretend it’s anything more than coffee. It seems we agree on this.

“NGOs are quoted as putting the number of dead at 2000 - Do you think this kind of carnage will happen again?”

It all depends on how the rest of the country responds to the events. Will it react against a party which allows or actually supports communal riots, or will it react in a communally minded way? I haven’t seen any articles on what the feeling is in other BJP ruled states (Himachal, Goa?, and ??). Nor on the reaction among the population in the NDA Allies’ states (Andhra, TN, ??).

The thing foreigners often lose sight of when talking about secularism and India is that India has a secular constitution because the majority of Hindus support secularism. It is not there because the minorities support it. I do not think that majority will change, but only the elections will tell us for sure.

“If not, what are the reasons for that optimism?”

Not optimistic. Just feel that in the long run there is no alternative. Tired. Sad. Nervous. You name it.

Zafar

Reply # 77 shammi

[``You are no different from the abettors of riots, the killers of innocents, and those who placed wagers on the riot toll. Shame on you.``]

Shammi,

You Hindus plan and execute genocide and shame is on me?

Your Hindu govt. participates in the genocide and shame is on me?

You Hindus slit open the uteruses of 8 month pregnant women and kill the baby before her eyes and shame is on me?

You Hindus rape Ehsan Jafri`s daughters before burning them in front of their father and shame is on me?

You Hindus burn the house of Justice Akbar Divecha and almost kill IG Police I. Sayyid and shame is on me?

Indan muslims are living in refugee camps in their own country and shame is on me?

Your Hindu prime minister asserts that Indian muslims are responsible for their fate, and shame is on me?

I can go on and on, but I hope you will acknowldege that shame is on Hindus, and on all Hindus, and Hindus alone as far as Gujurat is concerned. Banya maane na maane alag baat hai.

ali1

“- The next few months will be harsh for Indian Muslims, but will also offer some opportunities to Pakistan. I forsee thousands of refugee camps like the Shah Alam refugee camp all over India. I forsee hundreds of MPs (or prominent muslims) like Ehsan Jafri, burnt to death after watching the rape of his daughters. I forsee several hundred thousand muslims killed and injured. But I also forsee substantial retaliation like Bombay in 1993 repeated all over India..... which can set India afire and burn it to the ground.... only if the Pakistani govt. steps in and equips Indian muslims with the necessary tools.”

….you forsee??…. you’re practically salivating for it to happen…

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2002/02/21/ezra_selim/index.html

Sleeping with the enemy

Two men -- an Israeli Jew and a Palestinian Muslim -- risk harassment, jail and death for their love....

Re: Ali1

From Rediff by Dilip D`Souza:

`...a team of Kashmiri Pandits will visit Gujarat next week. Think again about the irony. These are people who were driven from their homes in Kashmir, watched many of their loved ones killed after terror took root there. Too often, it was their once-neighbours and friends who turned on them, driven to this senseless brutality by a perversion of religion. Fleeing Kashmir, Pandits have scattered throughout the country and across the world. Many still live in squalid refugee settlements. One older couple I know in Delhi exists -- that`s the word, they seem barely alive -- in a tragic and bewildered vacuum: unable to quite comprehend what has happened to them...`

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/apr/16dilip.htm

Ladies and gentlemen,

Allow me to say one thing.. We shouldn`t make sacred cows out of everyone... I mean, there are individuals on these boards, who frankly have nothing to contribute intellectually one way or other... I mean even with the utter fools like Harimau and Naqshbandi, one atleast gets a point of view, some sources, some facts, some lies... but with these individuals... they just don`t have anything to contribute.. So why do they insist on wasting other peoples` time?

All they do is spout goody goody world view, self righteous babble, and unnecessary insults... Why is it then, that most people are blinded and see them as some sort of `good guys`. Is humanity so blind sighted by fake modesty and mock innocence?

Its time, we called a spade a spade... and that my friends is not hatred.

-YLH

Arre, what`s going on here?

(Have been very busy for a few weeks and I come home and find this?)