Regarding the Stupid White Men

YLH

``I am willing to talk about this new `fact` you have revealed... Please quote the source for such a stupid ad idiotic remark. ``

Same source where you equated the crashes in 10 years with the number of crashes in one year. Heh Heh Heh!!!

Sadhna:

``There are more non pakistan sponsered terrorist in India than the reasons for India to line up its military show piece against pakistan.``

OK!!

``IF Every damn bomb made of RDX & dynamite were brought from Pakistan ,then there wouldnt be some terrorists like Verappan,Gowle ,Naik,Naxalite ,Ranveer Sena,Maoists, Rss,Shiv Sena ,Bajrang Dal ,You may even include Khalistani & SIMI for making it Secular & even handed........``

Again, valid point. But, what have I said to make you post this? All I saw was semipreciousme`s post asking for terrorist acts apart from Dec 13, and I posted a few. I don`t claim that my list is 100% complete. I have also repeated my belief that Pakistan does not have the capability of Creating terrorism, it can merely encourage and sustain it. Our own government is responsible for creating those conditions in which people start believing in violent means.

As fas as Kashmir is concerned, I have repeatedly said that we have a Pakistan problem vis a vis Kashmir, which is territorial in nature, and we have a Kashmir problem which is that of alienation.

In fact, I am heartened by protests in Kashmir about Gujarat because it shows concern of Indians for fellow Indians, as opposed to statements of leaders like Geelani who say that they are Pakistani and therefore distinct from Indian Muslims. Anyway, I am off on a tangent...but really, the last person I would attempt to put down on Chowk, Indian or otherwise, is semipreciousme..so, my post was not meant to be an insult to her or her country. Take a chill pill..

Arjunm,

Please acknowledge that both IAF figures and Chuck Yeager`s book show a three to one kill ratio for PAF in 1971... that is 3 indian planes destroyed per 1 Pakistani plane. As for Kargil, any idiot knows the nature of that operation didn`t require PAF`s role.

INDIAN LIES ALA GLIB

Glib,

Ladies and gentlemen, in form of Glib we do have a glib liar.. but then who in India isn`t? He says Pakistani official sources but goes on to quote Bharat rhakshak. In IAF we have an airforce which is universally criticized for its low safety ratings and high crash ratios. PAF on the other hand had the highest safety rating for falcons for many years.

As for non-existent past victories, I suppose the evidence of John Fricker`s Battle for Pakistan or

General Horner of the USAF`s really burns a lying Indian like yourself up:

“Pakistan has one of the best, most combat ready airforces in the world….. For the Indian war planners, the Pakistan Air Force is their

worst fear. Pakistani pilots are respected throughout the world, ……because they know how to fly and fight.” - Lieutenant-General Charles Horner, USAF (retd.), the chief architect of, and the mastermind behind, the air campaign against Iraq during the Gulf War. Quoted from his biography, “Every Man A Tiger”

OOOOOOOh burnol lagayiye!

No matter how you lie, the fact is that PAF has lost less than 1/4th as many aircrafts as IAF in the past 55 years. Pakistan`s attrition rate, Indian lies notwithstanding, per flying hour has been much lower. And another clear lie of yours is exposed in your accusation that PAF logs only 1/3rd of the flying hours. Yes PAF owns about roughly 1/3rd of Aircrafts as IAF, but PAF has a Pilot ratio of 1300 GDPs to some 480 Aircrafts. Hence PAF`s planes are almost always logging in flying hours. These Indian excuses don`t make sense.. quoted off of bharat rhakshak, they can hardly be taken as `objective` information...

The way Indians love to lie, the way they have cultivated this awesome mentality of ill founded superiority and judging by biased sources such as Bharat Rhakshak...

Here is the homepage of one of Bharatrhakshak`s contributing statisticians... even a biased individual like him can`t hide the superiority of PAF pilots in analyis..

http://members.tripod.com/

TAhmed,

Thanks for the welcome back all those posts ago.

Hey, would love to stay but got bills to pay. Litigation in Boston is not cheap, as Urstruly will tell you ;)

rgds,

PM

hobbyty #220 and 221: Would the real hobbyty please arise and explain what is going on here. These two posts are indeed a puzzlement (as the King said in the King and I).

YLH Sez:

The indian argument that the planes crashed because

they were old Mig 21s is not only sad .. Many airforces operate even worse and older aircrafts and don`t crash them as many times...



Why are you avoiding the issue of your lie? You

claimed India lost 102 planes in 1 year, and I showed

from the original quote that India lost 102 planes in 10 years. Surely you realize the difference between 1 and 10?



YLH Sez:

For example PAF acquired Mig19/J6/F6 aircrafts from

China in 1967... these planes were designed to fly less

than 1000 hours and were there to equip PAF in case

of war. PAF phased out those aircrafts in 2002, apx two

months ago, after flying each one of them for over 10

000 hours and with an attrition rate way below any of

India`s...

PAF also uses Mig 21s, upgraded version called F 7P..

and we don`t lose less 1/3rd as many.



Again you are lying. You want us to believe that

Pakistan bought ALL its Mig 19`s in 1967 and operated

them continuously for 35 years? Just because you are a

moron, you should not assume that the rest of the world

is.

Chuck Yeager, who I am sure all Pakistanis love to

quote, says in his autobio that the Chinese Mig 19`s

were good for only 100 hours of flying and after that

they had to be scrapped.

The Mig 21`s are rated for 2000 hours of flying after

which they have to be taken out for major overhaul.

Many Mig 21`s in IAF inventory have been flown for

2,500 hours. But the IAF has been operating Mig 21`s

since the sixties! So what is missing here?

In case you didn`t get it, India acquired the Migs over a

period of two decades. I doubt that the case of Mig 19`s

in Pakistan is any different.



YLH Sez:

So give credit where its due!



Yeah, right... The fact is, you have two choices. Either

you fly your aircraft and train hard and take the risk of a

crash. Or you sit in the officers mess, sipping rooh afza

and reminiscing about non-existent past victories, and

thereby avoid crashes.

Hrere is an article that shows, CITING OFFICIAL

PAKISTANI FIGURES, that PAF actually has a much

higher incidence of crashes than the IAF:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE2-4/ru

pak.html

To summarise the article, the PAF has 2/3 the number

of aircraft compared to the IAF but logs about 1/3 the

number of flying hours (see my comments about rooh

afza) AND has a crash rate 2-3 times that of the IAF.

Interestingly, as the article shows, Air Marshal Ayaz

Ahmad Khan (whose figures are cited in the said

article) looked at his own numbers and was apparently

unable to comprehend their significance (namely, that

the PAF did not have a good flight safety record). It

seems that the Good Air Marshal cannot count! Is he

related to you?

Asim Hayat #233, ``I am still trying my level best to comprehend the point you are trying to make here. I never said that my profession relied on alma maters. All i said was that i can get that ``leverage`` to propel me farther , quicker based on my academic credentials.``

exactly, that`s my point...it`s a good leverage if you`re in that profession which calls for such leverage. so alma maters do matter to your profession.

``BTW its what is on paper that matters more in this inequitable world than what one truly is at times.``

what is on paper, might be sufficient enough to get the ball rolling initially, but in order to keep the ball rolling, the individual has to show his/her competence. competence doesn`t come from papers, it comes from the individual mind and talent.

i`ll give you a small example from my own personal life. a year ago, my mother was very ill, i naturally wanted to have her treated by the best doctors. so i called up the hospital in my community, and asked for the background on several doctors. i made appointments with two or three who graduated from the top medical schools and residencies... one had a terrible personality, didn`t know how to talk to patients and their family members....another had a horrible track record (which we learned from personal sources)....we ended up choosing a third surgeon who graduated from a state medical school, completed his residency in Europe.. his track record was one of the best in his field...what mattered in the end was his ability to perform the best, not what he had on paper, and he was an excellent practitioner and surgeon....this is just one example....there are countless more

``What this fellow did not realise is that its not about grades. Its about the experience. I am assuming we are all grown up above the age where competition in terms of who scored the most A`s in O levels mattered. Its not the grades that matter, but rather the imparting of scientific knoweledge and the ability to interact with world class faculty that matters.``

If the consumer is not happy, what does it matter if the person in question has the ability to interact with world class faculty? Spreading scientific knowledge amongst learned scholars is just great but unless one has the ability to implement it, it`s just talk....and we all know that talk is cheap.

``I know Tahmed is not going to like it one bit, when i inform you that bases on a single 4 minute phone call of a professor a person could get a job. Ofteh the head hunters at these universities, need only approach the professor emeritus to ask them about who the best folks in the departmnet are.``

The key word here is ``best folks,`` ....obviously that means the most talented person gets the job right? It`s not necessarily the whole entire Harvard class.

``and lo and behold they will get job offers without even so much as a tem minute informal interview. Now think about that. Is it wrong?``

It`s not wrong, you said yourself that head hunters ask for the best folks?

``Most business deal are not conducted in the confines of awood-panelled board room anymore. Deals are conducted over Fancy dinners and golfing excursions in exotic faraway treats, or even country clubs.``

Getting deals might be half the battle, you`re right, but sustaining the deal and doing a good job is what people see and evaluate in the end.

``We can either admit reality or deny it and live in a fool`s paradise hoping that hard work alone will get us there.``

i`m not denying that it doesn`t help....but don`t make the mistake of taking hard work lightly. it`s just as wrong as me saying that alma maters don`t count at all.

``Am I making sense to anyone? Please tell me to take a sabbatical if i am not!``

You`re making sense, but you need to evaluate the other side of the debate too....you can`t just base success on names.

suxena #237,

did i give you the right to stop me from writing whatever the hell i want....no :)

so shoooo, here`s a ball, go fetch, run!

re: DRUMZ

{My point, as u so elequently demonstrated, was that ivy league schools do not teach someone how to think. }

you`re right...but that is not their job...you`re supposed to know how to think when you walk into the school...the school is there to add breadth and depth to your ability to think...

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Glib,

Given that you are an indian, I anticipated your reply which was full of lies and more lies as usual. Please show your source for the incredible information you are giving about Pakistan`s flying hours... I have seen Planes flying in Sargodha on Non-stop basis. These stupid claims that you are making are absolutely inaccurate and you know it as well I do.

Your claims that we can`t afford to keep our planes flying smacks of a combination of ignorance and arrogance. We regularly operate our 480 odd Fighters.. and we do so at the same rate if not more than the Indians... Given that Indian Pilot to plane ratio is roughly 1 to 1.. and ours is 3 to 1... just in flying hours alone, we use our planes much more than you do...

So don`t give me these white lies and stupid excuses that have been fed to you by your incompetent Airchiefs.

-YLH

ylh,

yawn....give it up pal...your invincible PAF notwithstanding, the Pak military has the dubious honor of NEVER wining a war it ever fought, comiting a genocide & spitting at Jinnah`s ideals. Yup, they are very good at kicking the butts of Pakistani civilians...I`ll give `em that!

Those fly boys, soldier boys & sailor boys are all frikking anachronisms like Gandhi & Jinnah. The next Indo-Pak war will be nuclear. So Pakistan has lost its chance of ever defeating India in a war. Get over it!

For once, look at the present, instead of sticking your head in the past. Do you ever see Indians (on Chowk or otherwise) cursing their military like the Pakistanis do theirs?!

So boast about these Pakistani anachronisms all you want. They are just footnotes in history. But go ahead..dont let me stop you..maybe you need a ray of pride to hold on to..after all, you are an expert in spinning a defeat into victory..you need to be..otherwise you will kill yourself.

How about this...Pakistan kicks India`s butt in cricket & hockey! There..there..feel better now..bakra?!

BTW, do you think people ``win`` or ``lose`` arguments on Chowk?! huhn.. since when?! Gee...dont recall seeing any judges here. Maybe the staff on Chowk e-mail you after your tirades to say ``yeah, baby, you rock, you slayer of dhoti clads``..Maybe not...

semipreciousme #217
Its interesting, these attacks have increased since Musharraf came to power.

In random order and incomplete:

1. As Stuka points out, an attack on Red Fort in New Delhi Dec 2000, 3 were killed. The Lashkar-e-Toiba boasted about this attack on its website until a month or so ago this year(and apparently enacted it before a stadium full of people in some major city of Pakistan) .

2. 3 Jaish-e-Mohammad activists killed in Lucknow, who planned to bomb a site in Ayodhya Apr 2001

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/180401/dtLNAT10.asp

I believe these reports because Jaish issued a poisonous statement after this incident, I think it acknowledged its people got killed.

3. bomb blasts in Indian churches in Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh(south India)

A Muslim sect whose leader is based in Pakistan is supposed to have carried out these attacks

4. Kidnappings of foreigners by Omar Shiekh in N. Delhi in 1994. When the hostages were rescued by Indian police, Omar Shiekh was wounded and arrested and a senior police officer was killed.

5. Indian Airlines hijacking to Kandahar in Dec `99 /Jan 2000 which resulted in release of Omar Shiekh, Masood Azhar and another guy Mushtaq Ahmad Zaragar. Omar Shiekh now being convicted for Daniel Pearl`s murder. One of the alleged kidnappers of Daniel Pearl, Imitiaz Siddiqui? still at large was mentioned as being one of the hijackers of the IA plane

6. Attack on American Consulate in Calcutta in Jan 2002, an underworld criminal Ansari(Indian) who is known/shown to be associated with the above personalities was deported from a Gulf country

7. Mumbai bomb blasts, attacks in Himachal Pradesh and Punjab. Someone I know lost a nephew, and another nephew lost his hearing in a bomb blast on a train in Punjab.

8. Blasts in Sabarmati Express and Gomti Express in 2000 blamed on a now banned group SIMI(Students Islamic Movement of India) said to have connections with Paki jihadi groups.

PS Even the Taliban`s Airforce which flew Mig 21s and Mig 19s in much worse shape than India`s Mig 21s (Remember India upgraded the Mig 21s too).. has a much better attrition rate (per flying hour) than India.

The indian argument that the planes crashed because they were old Mig 21s is not only sad .. Many airforces operate even worse and older aircrafts and don`t crash them as many times...

For example PAF acquired Mig19/J6/F6 aircrafts from China in 1967... these planes were designed to fly less than 1000 hours and were there to equip PAF in case of war. PAF phased out those aircrafts in 2002, apx two months ago, after flying each one of them for over 10 000 hours and with an attrition rate way below any of India`s...

PAF also uses Mig 21s, upgraded version called F 7P.. and we don`t lose less 1/3rd as many.

So give credit where its due!