Regarding the Stupid White Men

Hari Inder,

What planes do you think PAF were using... Subsonic F 86 Sabres of Korean War of 1950... Vampires, Hunters, Mysteres, Caberras, Mig 21s etc were much more formidable team than PAF`s F 86s .. remember in 1965 Most of PAF`s kills were on Sabres and very few on the supersonic f 104... In 1971, the bulk of the PAF depended on again f 86 and Mig 19s ... the F 104s had been rendered useless due to the lack of spareparts... yet you guys had Mig 21s which better than any thing the PAF had...

Do you think we had F 16s or something back then? tsk tsk... You Indians just don`t wanna give credit where its due .. do you...

-YLH

PS No I don`t think there are others on these boards who know more than you...

they are just like you.

YLH

I am no expert in Air warfare and there seem to be a lot of people on the chowk, who know a lot more about the subject than me. However I was struck by one thing. while going thru your posts.

In all the encounters that you have quoted, the PAF kills were against IAF hunters and Vampires. Very few against Gnats or Mirages. As I understand the Hunters and Vampires are of WW II vintage. The Saber on the other hand was the frontline air fighter of the America air force, when it was delivered to the PAF.

As far as the MIGs are concerned, in terms of the price paid for them against what the PAF paid for its American planes, there is not comparison. Incidently, I read some where, that the americans claimed 1:14 kill ratio for their sabers aginst the MIG 15s in Korea.

I would say the IAF did pretty well considering, they were using much older or cheaper machines. Don`t you agree?

...any guesses why the US is training indian soliders in alaska?...s-i-a-c-h-e-n

{As part of the rapidly expanding Indo-US defence ties, paracommandos from an Indian Army brigade and special forces from the American Pacific Command will begin joint exercises in Agra in the next few days.

The exercise, code-named ``Balance Iroquois``, will be backed by transport aircraft of the Indian Air Force and the US Air Force. These exercises will be followed by Indo-US mountain manoeuvres currently in progress in Alaska in the US.

In addition to the joint exercises, defence ministry officials say the Indo-US Defence Policy Group (DPG) meeting, to be held in Washington from May 20 to 23, will explore ways to further expand strategic, security and defence cooperation between the two countries.

The recent $146 million deal with the US for the purchase of eight AN/TPQ-37 firefinder weapon-locating radars is just a precursor to other agreements in the offing.}}

Alephnull

USAF, RAF etc

Pakistan has one of the best, most combat ready airforces in the world….. For the Indian war planners, the Pakistan Air Force is their

worst fear. Pakistani pilots are respected throughout the world, ……because they know how to fly and fight.” - Lieutenant-General Charles Horner, USAF (retd.), the chief architect of, and the mastermind behind, the air campaign against Iraq during the Gulf War. Quoted from his biography, “Every Man A Tiger

Alephnull,

If after admitting that the Highest number of kills are attributed to Pakistani aces, Pakistani pilots have more air to air kills than Indians, and PAF has won all the classic air combat maneuvres... if Jagan Mohan doesn`t admit that PAF`s superiority... it just proves one thing: He is an Indian, hence he is unable to be fairminded.

-YLH

YLH, you say:

How dare you accuse me of not using `Numbers` I have

put up the entire Bharat Rhakshak website up here you

idiot... Its your fault for not reading the numbers etc...



Dear deluded one: all you have done is present records

of a few individual air combats. But I note that you

refuse the numbers that matter, those pertaining to

number of hours of flying vs. the number of crashes.

This is like writing about a few incidents of

hand-to-hand combat during the 71 (conveniently

choosing only those that show the Pak ghazis in a

favorable light) and concluding that the Indian Army

was not match for the ghazis...

Yes, a Subedar Wazir Khan may have overwhelmed a

Havildar Lekh Ram in hand to hand combat, but in the

end, IT DID NOT MATTER.

Tha fact is, you incompetent nincompoops allowed

yourself to be overrun in Bangladesh in 10 days. All you

had to do was to hang on for a month or so, to give

Nixon enough time to bail you out. Given enough time,

there is no doubt that the US would have successfully

pressured the India to cease fire and withdraw from

Bangladesh. That could not be done once the Pak

ghazis had surrenedered and a Bangladesh

government was in place.

Even in the western sector, where your ghazis were

supposed to grab enough territory from India to make

her sue for peace, you idiots did no better. While your

shaheens were circling above their officers messes and

winning imaginary dogfights, your ghazis in their iron

camels were being slaughtered by the ``incompetent ``

IAF!

ylh #338

{{According to Alephnull,

1) Indian statisticians are liars.

2) All American Air force generals are liars

3) Jane Defence Weekly lies

4) All International monitors are liars..

5) PAF is paying all of the above to create `Myths`.}}

ylh:

I have not said any of the above. Those are YOUR ATTEMPTED INFERENCES, provided without any reasoning, and are ill-founded. Have the BASIC HONESTY to not attribute your own concoctions to me.

If you ask me for my opinion on any of the above, I`ll gladly provide them subject to clarification of what exactly you mean by each statement. But that is another matter.

Some more malodorous tripe from you:

{{3) The contributor to Bharat Rhakshak, Mr.Jagan Mohan PVS, though a biased commentator, has been forced to admit PAF`s superiority.}}

FALSE. Again, an attempt to pull YOUR DESIRED CONCLUSION from somebody else`s data or statements like a rabbit out of a hat. You must learn to control this utterly dishonest habit of yours, or your name will be mud.

What Jagan Mohan has done is painstakingly assemble and collate all the data he could, in order to document the performance of two air forces in the various wars they have fought. In the case of items he has highlighted (such as aces) he has indicated his opinion of the veracity of claims. He appears to have been very conservative (from the Indian point of view).

For instance, he presents an `unofficial` list of IAF combat losses, which may be more comprehensive and complete than the official one. On the other hand, he presents the `official` PAF combat losses, which is most unlikely to be an overestimate. The PAF official figures will, for example, certainly not contain details of Jordanian F-104s loaned to the PAF that failed to return after the 1971 war. I recognise this scrupulous thoroughness and rectitude with figures as a common South Indian trait. So much for his `bias`. I suppose you think he`s biased because he won`t provide you with the numbers you want on a platter.

Jagan NOWHERE admits `PAF`s superiority`; nor does he assert the reverse. The notion of superiority is meaningless without specifying the measure of quality. Further, a proposed metric must make sense in connection with the phenomenon being studied. Otherwise it`s just a meaningless game played with numbers.

If you had one or more metrics in mind, tell me what they are, and I`ll most likely be able to take you apart.

{{The Bharat Rhakshak Records are as follows (and though they show PAF superiority, I dispute them because it is considerably reduced)}}

...

{{Again, these numbers show superiority of the PAF over IAF but I dispute them because the Indians have greatly reduced the numbers of their losses. The losses were in the ballpark of 110 ...}

Again, the same old bilge repeated again and again. I`ll bet you didn`t major in a quantitively or analytically rigorous field. Making sense of numbers doesn`t seem to be your strong point.

ylh #338

{You declare that PAF has had similar accidents.. yes one plane jettisoned fuel tanks a few years ago...}

Not so fast. The VERY NEXT YEAR an F-7 out of PAF Masroor plummeted on the heads of civilians in Orangi killing a number comparable to the Mirage drop tank case. It sounds like a dead ringer for the Jalandhar MiG-21 crash - similar aircraft, flameout at low level, etc. In this case pure good fortune prevented a much higher death toll in a densely populated area.

Masroor seems to be especially susceptible to such incidents, which cannot be concealed for fairly obvious reasons. There have been other cases as well. As far as overall PAF crashes go, they seem to have about 6 or 7 admitted crashes of fixed-wing combat aircraft per year for the years for which I have ready access. [I am specifically excluding non-combat trainers, transports such as C-130s, helicopters, PN Orions, and shootdowns.] I think the PAF should be complemented for keeping those ancient Mirages together with cannibalised parts, with only occasional disappearances into the Arabian Sea.

{ but for God`s sake... IAF has the POOREST safety record in the WORLD and PAF has been hailed as one of the safest... }

The IAF has a poor safety record in terms of combat aircraft accidents per 10, 000 flying hours - certainly, compared with Western air forces. There are various reasons why a comparison with Western air forces may not be quite fair, but we can go into that at another time.

Now ... I`m completely uninterested in whether the PAF has been HAILED as this or that by one or the other ill-informed nincompoop. I want NUMBERS on which such a conclusion can be based. You have already been provided with sources for these by glib. Please unearth the numbers and tell me what they signify. And also do a comparison with Western airforces, such as the RAF or the USAF .. show us how the PAF stacks up against them. Then we can see if that claim of yours is justified.

We all know how you self professed `Nazis` got Srinagar... as for Siachen... I can`t believe how ignorant one can be of War and War History...

Talk to a General of your Army about the successful expansion of India into `Siachen`... he will laugh his head off... Siachen is bleeding you dry... it was the biggest blunder your army made, and we will continue to make you re live it... your mythology aside!

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Rsaxena,

Yes you are right maharaj.. Sheikh Abdullah is indeed the Gospel of the truth...

Here is another Gospel of the truth for you...

Dr B R Ambedkar:

``Mr Gandhi is no exception to this rule. He presents himself to the world as a liberal but his liberalism is only a very thin veneer which sits very lightly on him as dust does on one`s boots. You scratch him and you will find that underneath his liberalism he is a blue blooded Tory. He stands for the cursed caste. He is a fanatic Hindu upholding the Hindu religion``

http://www.dr-ambedkar.com/writings/42.%20Mr.%20Gandhi%20and%20The%20Emancipation%20of%20The%20Untouchables.htm

Unlike your little quote which is sourceless and contextless, you are welcome to read the context.

But given that your countrymen like Alephnull have already shown the ugly face of Indian arguments... I doubt that you will ever learn to accept the truth.

YLH

Alephnull,

Indian kay Indian hee raho gay...

Kargil has already be explained in detail so please shut up about that.

FIRST OF ALL ..The `claim` is not mine, but of the Top Brass of the USAF, Jane`s Defence Weekly and Your own Statistician. Your explaining away just doesn`t work. I know Yeager`s testimony really burns you Indians ... but I am sorry those are the facts... why is it that your Russian friends never said something like that about your Airforce?

As for your `Prime Candidate` why is it that your own statistician, the guy who writes for Bharat Rhakshak doesn`t mention this on his website?

Let us review once more what he had to say:

http://members.tripod.com/

re: ylh

...and you admire this man?...sick...

Sheikh Abdullah in his autobiography quotes Jinnah`s reply to a Kashmiri activist`s question whether the people of Kashmir would decide its future as ``let the people go to hell``.

ylh #345

{5. Who is the top scoring PAF Pilot?

There are actually two of them. Sqn Ldr M M Alam with Four Hunters as kills from the 65 War, ....}

{6. Which are the best aircombat incidents that can be termed as classic fights?

In my view the following are the classic ``dogfights`` of the Indo-Pakistani Wars.

1965

....

d. The Second Hunter Raid on Sargodha of Five Hunters in which Two Hunters were downed by Sqn Ldr Alam.}

Yo YLH - I can`t believe that you`re letting Jagan Mohan`s slanders against Sqn Ldr Alam pass unchallenged. Don`t you know that according to official PAF claims he had NINE kills - including no less than FIVE Hunters shot down in a single sortie, four of them in the space of thirty seconds? Air Chief Marshal Romair (back in the days when he was Air Marshal Umairr) has attested to the veracity of this claim and explained how it could be done. Yes Sir, that`s right, ``thirty seconds over Sargodha``! A feat unrivalled in the annals of jet combat before or since! Who cares that the PAF never produced gun-camera footage! Or could it be that they were - shudder - making INFLATED AND UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIMS?

Now let me add my own prime candidate for inclusion under the heading ``short sharp encounters during the India-Pakistan air wars``

a. Aircombat over Boyra on 22nd November 1971 between 4 PAF Sabres and 4 IAF Gnats in which 3 Sabres were downed by the Gnats without loss.

Two of the PAF pilots ejected into Indian territory and were made POW. One of them was Flt. Lt. Pervez Mehdi Qureshi. That little encounter might have helped convince him of the fundamental competence of his adversaries. Which could have been why, 27 years later, as Air Chief Marshal Pervez Mehdi Qureshi, Chief of Staff of the PAF, he might have been less than eager to have his men thrown into the fray in Kargil.

ylh #various

Let us, for the sake of argument, accept your claims (I trust I am not misrepresenting them in paraphrase) that the PAF is one of the best and most combat-ready airforces in the world, that on the other hand the IAF is terminally incompetent, etc. etc.

If that is the case, I consider it INCREDIBLE that the PAF never showed up in Kargil. Your casual claim in ylh #326 that

{Anyone who has studied the Kargil operation knows that the operation didn`t require aircover}

I find frankly untenable. The IAF`s fixed wing aircraft flew about 580 strike missions (MiG-27s) over the course of 6 weeks during the Kargil operations. These were supported by 460 air defence missions (MiG-29s and MiG-21s) and 160 reconnaissance missions. The strike missions targeted both Pakistani troops up on ridges and peaks - for instance Tiger Hill, as well as the logistics supporting them - such as the supply camp in Muntho Dalo. That appears to have made the job of the Indian army much easier. Other things being equal, troops on the higher ground possess a tremendous advantage; Romair never tires of reminding us of this. The introduction of the IAF made things unequal, disrupted the Pakistani Army`s logistics, ended up leaving the Pakistani troops stranded, to the extent that some of their dead were reported to have starved and been forced to eat grass. There is no way that the logistic chain from the Pakistani side to the men on the heights could have been broken without air strikes against the supply camps. And accurate aerial reconnaissance was essential to the Indian Army`s operations.

So clearly the Indians appeared to derive considerable benefit from using their air force. It was therefore the duty of the PAF to disrupt the enemy air force`s operations and thus help out their beleaguered army brothers on the Kargil heights. It was not even necessary to directly increase the misery of hundreds of Indian troops trying to climb up mountainsides against hostile fire by bombing and rocketing and strafing them (maybe PAF Shaheens regards the job of ground attack as trivial and unglamorous - perhaps that is why they don`t seem to boast about it). In Kargil it would have sufficed to go after the MiG-29s flying top cover for the IAF`s strike missions. Air-to-air combat is supposed to be PAF`s forte - it`s particular claim to world-beating excellence. Had they taken on the Indians there and wiped them out, the IAFs entire Kargil air operations would have come unstuck. This in turn would have rung the death-knell to the Indian Army`s operations, left Pakistan in possession of the heights at the end of August/September, holding the whip hand, forcing Vajpayee and company to sue for terms, vacate Siachen, hand over the Valley and beg to be allowed to retain Ladakh, etc. etc. And it might have meant no coup in Pakistan, no subsequent mockery of franchise via farcical fraudulent referenda, etc. The whole course of recent history would have been so different with this decisive defeat of the Indians. A pleasant pipe-dream, is it not?

Can you therefore explain why the PAF Shaheens didn`t avail themselves of this splendid opportunity? I hate to think that they told the Army that they couldn`t provide air cover for the operation, as they did in 1971 when the Army requested cover for their thrust from Reti-Rahimyar Khan to Jaisalmer (the result - with the PAF nowhere in sight, IAF Hunters shot up the Pakistan Army`s tanks at Loganewala from sunrise to sunset, decisively crippling that operation). Could it have been that they thought that the `Army should fight its own battles`? Were they holding themselves in reserve for an epic future showdown with the Taliban Air Force? Did they plan to make the IAF pilots flying CAPs die of boredom? Or did they simply not fancy their chances against IAF MiG-29s armed with BVR missiles? Enquiring minds want to know.

Good Arjunm,

You accept that India is neo-nazi expansionist wannabe world power... That has been my point all along... The rise of Hindu Fascism, and the inverted swastika is here...

But for every Hitler.. there is a Churchill... for every Germany, there is an England.. and like Shias say: Every land is Karbala, every day is Ashur... We will be the England for you guys.. we will be your Hussains! And the Yazids will lose this time around!

Long Live Pakistan...

-YLH