Regarding the Stupid White Men

alephnull`s stupid post has the same irony as Sadna`s `explaining away` of Ambedkar`s characterization of Gandhi as a Hindu fanatic.

fyi alephnull,

PAF also uses the same Mig 21 .. we don`t lose 10% of the planes you lose..

IAF has the WORST safety record in the World. PAF is considered to be one of the safest.

THERE IS NO COMPARISON...

``Pakistan has one of the best, most combat ready airforces in the world….. For the Indian war planners, the Pakistan Air Force is their

worst fear. Pakistani pilots are respected throughout the world, ……because they know how to fly and fight.” - Lieutenant-General Charles Horner, USAF (retd.), the chief architect of, and the mastermind behind, the air campaign against Iraq during the Gulf War. Quoted from his biography, “Every Man A Tiger

(I didn`t know he was on PAF`s payroll)

`Pakistan`s airforce is evenly matched with India`s given the superior skill of the Pakistani Pilots` General Don Shephard on CNN in the Hey day of Pakistan India conflict last year.

THE STUPID AND ARROGANT BASELESS SUPERIORITY COMPLEX OF THE INDIANS...

Alephnull,

How many times will you Indians twist the words around.. the US generals are wrong, Jane defence weekly is wrong.. all of this is a PAF myth... then tell me is the IAF`s statistician also wrong.. You Indians are frankly amazing.. Instead of admitting that you su-ck at it, you are making convoluted and stupid statements to seek something which is really not yours.

You declare that PAF has had similar accidents.. yes one plane jettisoned fuel tanks a few years ago... but for God`s sake... IAF has the POOREST safety record in the WORLD and PAF has been hailed as one of the safest... how would you deny that? Your post is the sort of arrogant drivel which will ultimately be the down fall of your nation. Unlike your pathetic airforce `our mythical shaheens` fought in the Soviet War and won..

Once again for the benefit of the others.. According to Alephnull,

1) Indian statisticians are liars.

2) All American Air force generals are liars

3) Jane Defence Weekly lies

4) All International monitors are liars..

5) PAF is paying all of the above to create `Myths`.

HERE ARE SOME FACTS AGAIN for the BENEFIT OF INDIAN LIARS WHO MAKE SWEEPING GENERALIZATIONS and these are ALL FROM INDIAN STATISTICIANS:

1) Indians have not presented any sources for their claim that PAF planes are grounded. I know by personal experience that PAF is operating at full strength right now.

2) PAF logs in as many hours as the IAF given our Pilot to coc-kpit ratio which is roughly between 3 and 4 to 1. This is a known fact.

3) The contributor to Bharat Rhakshak, Mr.Jagan Mohan PVS, though a biased commentator, has been forced to admit PAF`s superiority.

He gives a comparison of Pakistani Pilots and Indian Pilots:

Pakistani Pilots

http://members.tripod.com/

re:Reply #: 335

AlephNull,

Thanks for your post. It makes sense, this thing about myth making. Reminds me of a news i read a few months ago when Mushy and other ``powers that be`` in the Paki establishment were urging Indian cricket team to visit Pakisthan. India had boycotted all sports links then. I read an editorial in a Pakistani paper(Dawn? The News?)that accused India of not playing because it was afraid of losing! Imagine the mindset. Why would one be afraid of losing a cricket match? In a game you win or lose. But then such a mindset seems to be common in the Paki intellegentia and establishment alike. In absence of reality, myth is all one can hold on to.

Sridhar

ylh

[I am sure Indians are an authority on `Winners` .. you know being experts at Precision landing on banks and stuff]

- I hope an aircraft crashes on your head so we can all laugh and joke about it.

-h-

ylh #316, #326, #332

Re civilians being killed on the ground in air force crashes, as in Jullundur, that is an unfortunate fact of life in our part of the world. Many airbases are near populated areas. It is very difficult for a single-engined aircraft to recover from a flameout at low level. An airforce which puts in as much training in difficult conditions as the IAF does is going to suffer such crashes.

I might add that the PAF has had its share of similar accidents, to which PAF Masroor near Karachi seems especially vulnerable. In the most notorious such incident a few years ago, a PAF Mirage 3 jettisoned 2 fuel-filled drop tanks on a heavily populated area in Karachi burning ten people to death.

So it`s a very bad idea to use tragedies of this sort to score propaganda points against the other side.

rshridhar #311

{But i always wondered why PAF never scrambled to help Paki soldiers in Kargil when the latter were getting pounded by IAF?

Of course, Rooh Afza theory may be a good starting point. Do you know of any other?}

There are a few possible explanation. Two favoured by defenders of the PAF are deniability of Pakistani armed forces involvement in Kargil, and unsuitability of the Kargil theatre to air operations. IMO both of these explanations are severely flawed and untenable.

The real reasons have to do ultimately with the difference between Pakistani state mythology and reality in regard to the PAF, and with the possibility of escalation. Briefly, the PAF and its personnel have been the focus of intensive myth-making over the last four decades; their deeds have been hyped and inflated out of all proportion to reality for the benefit of a gullible public. Most Indians probably do not adequately appreciate the extent to which the alleged exploits of these supposedly all-conquering Shaheens have been trumpeted in Pakistan. Meanwhile, the PAF has fallen severely behind its chief designated adversary in quantity and quality of weapon systems, and perhaps also in amount of flying training (and the PAF top brass certainly know this very well, even if they try not to broadcast this fact from the rooftops).

So, had the PAF tried to intervene in Kargil (an eventuality for which the IAF was prepared at all times), it would have gotten a bloody nose at the very least. For a `normal`, comparatively non-ideological country, like India, this would not matter so much - an air force is meant to be used if the occasion warrants, and loss of aircraft and pilots is then always on the cards. Preventing the Indians from using the IAF effectively in Kargil might well have made the difference between ultimate defeat and victory for Pakistan and might have been worth some material sacrifices from the PAF. But for a country given to uncontrolled myth-making, there is the severe additional risk of sacred myth being unravelled by a brush with reality, and this was probably deemed unacceptable to the interests of the Pakistan armed forces. Hence no PAF in Kargil.

As to undesirable outcome (from Pakistan`s POV) of conflict escalation if the PAF were used, there may be some truth to this, but eventually it too boils down to the inability of the PAF, or more generally Pakistan`s armed forces, to escalate a conflict on their own terms, and thus to the divergence between myth and reality.

re: ylh

{I am sure Indians are an authority on `Winners` .. you know being experts at Precision landing on banks and stuff...}

...i`d rather our military land a plane on a bank than lose 3 wars and half the country, and surrender a record 90,000 cowards to the enemy...just personal preference i suppose...

best regards

Dear Yasser,

Just wondering, are you deriving some ghoulish joy out of the death of people after an airplane crashes into their home and/or office?

sincerely,

Veeresh

whatever

(nothing better to do, yes)

Rsaxena,

I am sure Indians are an authority on `Winners` .. you know being experts at Precision landing on banks and stuff...

-YLH

re: asim hayat

{Shah`s above diatribe hardly proves his claims about his language ability and his assertion that Real Scholars are made in the East. However, for the more discerning amongst us, it does highlight his thinking and arguing prowess.}

....don`t you know, shah`s one of those eccentric geniuses...the kind who was home-schooled into becoming a genius...the kind who doesn`t need a university, especially a top-ranked one, to propel him to fame...after all, he IS the brains behind the multiple-personalities-with-multiple-nicks-so-people-focus-on-ideas concept that baffled all chowkies for the longest time...he`s in a different league my friend...i suggest you don`t try to match wits with the Great One...

re:Reply #: 323

AAmir,

Thanks for your post.

The problem is every crank wants legitimacy. It is like why should Musharraf need a referendum? It is all a question of legitimacy. Science confers such legitimacy. Of course science also needs rigorous proof.

I read the other day one IIT professor by name of Aggarwala (in IIT, Madras)claimed he could make gold from seaweeds. Many disputed his claim. Some asked him why he had not patented the invention. Only the other day i read that his wife had filed a police report against him for trying to molest his own daughter. Our professor it seems has a perversion when it comes to young women and he did not spare his own daughter. He will surely be in jail now and can count on laying his hands on some form of weeds there (the ones that grow out of the walls), though they won`t be seaweeds for sure!

I was amused to read a few years ago Pope John Paul declare that Earth is not the center of the universe, thereby correcting a mistake that is now 400 years old. Copernicus onwards, no scientist has ever believed the Church when it said Earth was the center. Why did the pope have to say anything at all and look foolish? Legitimacy i guess. Scientific expts rigourously conducted and proved are difficult to dispute. This matter of Earth Vs Universe must have weighed on the Church`s mind for a full 400 years!

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 323

AAmir,

I just said the article was fascinating. I did not say i believe in it.

Sridhar

re: ylh

{.. some losers just never quit}

...exactly...peep into the mirror...

AAmir #318 ``I am surprised by your knowledge of Latin.How did this come by ?`` Heh! Heh! I am glad to see that you are suitably impressed. I must disappoint you though by informing you that there are English-Latin dictionaries available on the internet that anyone can look up...and suggest you take sui moto action (that last phrase i picked up after i got fed up of reading this word in paki newspapers and decided to look it up) to pick up a few phrases yourself and throw in a bit of latin when you run out of arguments (No cheating like Hayat though, who took a short-cut and simply invented a latin sounding word). You can then declare yourself the winner in any chowk argument - in latin, as in ``veni, vedi, vici``.

If you like the latin phrases, then you must also read my translation of Gibbon`s ``Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire`` in Latin. Or impress your bosses, like Charles Napier did in the 19th century when he sent the news to his bosses in England after capturing Sindh by simply writing in Latin: ``Peccavi`` (Latin for ``I have Sinned``).

The Grand old clown of Chowk, Rsidhar is now trying his hand on PAF vs IAF debate, after getting his rearside kicked all over the place in other debates.. some losers just never quit... obviously one idiot will say `PAF didn`t fly in kargil`.. and like an infectious disease all Indians on this board pick it up... you know i could have sworn diahorrea wasn`t infectious... Anyone who has studied the Kargil operation knows that the operation didn`t require aircover but that little fact is totally lost...

tsk tsk ... and then there was the clown who tried to land the plane on top of a Bank... IAF`s pilots needn`t worry .. they can make a lot of money as Birthday clowns...

-YLH

IAF grounds MiG-21 fleet

Tribune News Service

New Delhi, May 3

With two of the country’s frontline fighter aircraft MiG-21 BIS having suffered the same fate in the past one month, the Indian Air Force (IAF) today announced the grounding of a majority of its fleet for a complete check-up for the possible cause of crashes.

The Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal S. Krishnaswamy, took an unprecedented step today of not only grounding the MiG-21 BIS fleet but also going to the media on the issue. The apparent reason behind the second move being to instil confidence not only in the public at large but more importantly among his very own men who have been flying these machines.

He admitted that repeated crashes did affect the morale of the men and it was important to instil confidence in them.

While ordering a court of inquiry into this morning’s crash in Jalandhar, the Air Chief Marshal offered his condolences to the families of those killed in the crash.

There have been a number of controversies over the IAF’s persistence with the MiG fighter aircraft variants and the Chief of Air Staff, while grounding about half a dozen of the MiG-21 BIS squadrons, attempted to allay all fears in regard to the aircraft. He stressed that type-75 aircarft of the MiG-21 BIS series which had the R-25 type engine would be allowed for routine sorties and training purposes only after a detailed report on the engines was received by Air Headquarters.

He clarified that the report on the state of the engines would be submitted to Air Headquarters within 10 days and only if it gave the go ahead would the aircraft be allowed to take to air. He said with the two aircraft going down due to the same reason (engine flame-out) in the past one month, it was his responsibility to “analyse the cause” and “examine the issue in totality”.

He however made it clear that in grounding of the aircraft, the country’s battle preparedness would not be lowered at any cost and those aircraft, including the one from the same series of MiG-21 BIS, deployed operationally would not be grounded.

“We are in a high state of readiness. There is no way we can relax our operational readiness,” the Air Chief said.

He said the black box and the flight data recorder (FDR) of the aircraft which crashed this morning had been recovered and sent for analysis.

Ruling out any phase-out of the MiG series from the IAF, Air Chief Marshal Krishnaswamy said, “every machine has mechanical problems. We have no reasons to believe their proneness to failure.”

Asked if frequent crashes involving the MiG fleet had only accentuated the need for early acquisition of advanced jet trainers (AJTs) for the IAF, he said, “I am confident we will get AJTs soon. There are processes and procedures which we must respect. We have completed price negotiations.”

The fighter aircraft grounded are all equipped with Russian R-25 engines, which also powers the upgraded MiG-21-93 which have just entered service. The Air Chief said similar checks would be undertaken on the modernised MiGs.

He said even though the IAF was equipped with the knowhow to check on the engines, yet if there was need, the Russian manufacturers of the aircraft would be called in to check on the defects.

Quoting preliminary report of the pilot, Flt Lt S.K. Nayak, who bailed out safely, the Air Chief said the aircraft suffered engine failure within five minutes of take-off from the Adampur airbase.

On the upgradation of the MiG-21 BIS series, he said the first squadron had almost been formed. “We have got 8 to 10 BIS aircraft upgraded.”

According to figures made available by the government in Parliament, 84 jets of the MiG series have crashed during the past five years.