Regarding the Stupid White Men
Mohammad Gill April 16, 2002
#284 Posted by rsaxena on April 30, 2002 6:07:26 am
re: stuka
{I have my suspicion that Lajwanti is an RSaxena invention...she makes way too much sense sometimes..}
..haha, you give me too much credit my friend...if only i had half the creativity ms. lajwanti has...<
{I have my suspicion that Lajwanti is an RSaxena invention...she makes way too much sense sometimes..}
..haha, you give me too much credit my friend...if only i had half the creativity ms. lajwanti has...<
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#283 Posted by ylh on April 30, 2002 6:07:26 am
Arjunm,
You keep making this same claim, but show no sources for it... it seems like you are arguing for the sake of arguing...Ask Sigalph about the Eastern sector war, and 14 sabres which kept IAF`s supersonic planes at Bay.
The fact is that as a nation you are miserly. Defence experts have long contended that PAF in skills, training and safety records has been amongst the top 2 or 3... a report had come out in Jane Defence weekly and became really famous. Similarly, similar opinion was aired by CNN experts in the latest conflict.
If USAF generals say something good about the PAF you say that they are biased.. if chuck Yeager says they are amongst the best in the world, you people say he was on PAF payroll, if Chuck Horner says the same thing in the 1990s, you refuse to answer that.. you say you are not quoting from some obscure russian col. Why don`t you do it and show us.. but you know there isn`t anything like that.
So why waste my time and yours... ?
-YLH
#282 Posted by sac on April 29, 2002 9:31:36 pm
re Asim Hayat #233:
``Am I making sense to anyone? Please tell me to take a sabbatical if i am not!``
No need for such drastic measures. Simply refrain from mentioning your alma mater in every post. You are trying to influence others in taking you more seriously relying on that fact rather than the persuasiveness of your argument. For the ones with any intelligence your educational qualifications mean diddly squat on an anonymous board like Chowk.
DRUMZ may never end up at Harvard or McGill(unless he adds stronger stimulants to his nightly regimen...) but you are more likely to end up working for him than the other way round.
later
-sac
``Am I making sense to anyone? Please tell me to take a sabbatical if i am not!``
No need for such drastic measures. Simply refrain from mentioning your alma mater in every post. You are trying to influence others in taking you more seriously relying on that fact rather than the persuasiveness of your argument. For the ones with any intelligence your educational qualifications mean diddly squat on an anonymous board like Chowk.
DRUMZ may never end up at Harvard or McGill(unless he adds stronger stimulants to his nightly regimen...) but you are more likely to end up working for him than the other way round.
later
-sac
#281 Posted by tahmed321 on April 29, 2002 9:31:36 pm
hamidm #224 one clarification (even though i already posted below my basic response to your above post): i would be opposed to paganism (or any other religion) in the ka`aba today as i am to the demolishment of the babri masjid a few years ago, and as i am to the demolishment of the hindu temple that i understand stood on the site of babri masjid a few centuries ago.
my point is simple: if a place is clearly a place of worship, then you need to respect it. this is consistent with the message of islam.
my point is simple: if a place is clearly a place of worship, then you need to respect it. this is consistent with the message of islam.
#280 Posted by stuka on April 29, 2002 9:31:36 pm
Sadna:
``Just to avoid any misunderstanding, the `Sadhna` you are replying to, is Shrimaan 12-head hiding behind yet another female moniker. A one-man soap opera in hermself. It seems the notorious DonJuan Deepika needs some refuge from the accusations of his other self, the comely Lajwanti :). ``
Oh yeah, definitely..though I doubt he is Lajwanti as well. I have my suspicion that Lajwanti is an RSaxena invention...she makes way too much sense sometimes..
``Just to avoid any misunderstanding, the `Sadhna` you are replying to, is Shrimaan 12-head hiding behind yet another female moniker. A one-man soap opera in hermself. It seems the notorious DonJuan Deepika needs some refuge from the accusations of his other self, the comely Lajwanti :). ``
Oh yeah, definitely..though I doubt he is Lajwanti as well. I have my suspicion that Lajwanti is an RSaxena invention...she makes way too much sense sometimes..
#279 Posted by stuka on April 29, 2002 9:31:36 pm
YLH
``... You know there has to be an end to this ill founded superiority complex you people seem to have.
``
Huh???? Gimme a break!! I don`t have a superiority complex at all. If you mean Indians in general, again, I am not answerable for a million others.
``... You know there has to be an end to this ill founded superiority complex you people seem to have.
``
Huh???? Gimme a break!! I don`t have a superiority complex at all. If you mean Indians in general, again, I am not answerable for a million others.
#278 Posted by progressive on April 29, 2002 9:31:36 pm
HOLY S/HIT
By Vijay Prashad
There is something wrong with an avoidance of the world of s/hit and labor that makes us human after all.
Yudhisthira, in the Mahabharata, tells his brethren that `I have heard that cowdung is imbued with prosperity.`` Bhishmacharya, the brave who would later be abandoned on the battlefield, recounted the story of Shri (or Laxmi), the Goddess of Wealth. Shri wished to live amongst a herd of cattle, but they rejected her. She persisted, ``I wish to live in any part of your bodies, however repulsive it may be. Indeed I wish to live even in your rectum.`` The cattle, overwhelmed by the goodness of the Goddess, replied that ``O you of great fame. We certainly wish to honor you. Live in our urine and faeces. Both of these are sacred, O Goddess.``
``By good fortune,`` Shri replied, ``you have shown me great favor. Let it be even as you say.`` (Mahabharata, Anushasana Parva, LXXXII, 21-25). Wealth, then, lived amongst faeces.
I`m reminded of this story as the furor over toilets interrupts the wealthy pursuits of the NRI world. A misguided artist, Lamar Van Dyke, created a company (Sittin` Pretty) that make, of all things, toilet seats with the images of Ganesh and Kali on the bottom of the lids. The Bharatiya Janata Party (in India) took the lead from their Jung Parivar allies in the USA and condemned the toilet seats. Pyarelal Khandelwal, of the BJP, said that Ms. Van Dyke has ``done a contemptible thing`` and that it was a direct assault on the feelings of a billion people. In the United States, the AHAD (or what had once been the American Hindu Anti-Defamation Coalition) went on the attack and Ms. Van Dyke received threats to her life.
Nirshan Perera, of rediff.com, did some savvy investigative work to find that Ms. Van Dyke is not connected (as J. P. Mathur of the BJP claimed) to any international ``Christian conspiracy.`` Indeed, he argued, that the ``toilet hullabaloo is an empty house`` (the title of his article). Ms. Van Dyke is an artist who is not unlike so many other purveyors of Indo-chic, from Madonna to the temporary tattoo artists (who use henna). From lunch boxes with calendric art of Shiva to yellow sleeveless shirts with ``Ram`` written in red - these are the emblems of Indo-chic and they pervade our major cities.
There is much to be worried about here, and I`ll get to that later. But first to the AHAD. They appear periodically to make a stink about some rather marginal phenomenon, to get their name in print as the spokespersons of the ``Hindus.`` In 1997 they went after Aerosmith`s Nine Lives album cover (on which an androgynous and feline Krishna), who apologized for their lack of good judgment. And now this graphic artist. The issues are less important than AHAD`s claim that we, as desis, have a primary identification as ``Hindus`` and that we can respond politically as ``Hindus.`` What kind of ``Hinduism`` do these people champion? Is this the eclectic ``Hinduism`` of Yudhistira and Bhishma, of Shri and the faeces of cattle, of that Vedic world which was as yet not fully dominated by a Brahmin elite so that it could revel in the dirt and s/hit of everyday life. My feeling is that AHAD is not the representative of ``Hindus`` but of a weird kind of sanitary Brahmanism. The Laws of Manu tell us that ``an earthen vessel which has touched wine, urine, faeces, spittle, pus or blood cannot be made clean even by firing it again`` (Manavadh-aramshastra, V, 123). Manu`s mission, in the post-Vedic era, was to ensure the dominance of Brahmin men over women of all castes and over those who they deemed not to be twice-born (dvijya), i.e. the Dalits and Shudras. The Brahmins saw the Dalits and Shudras as the enemy and they claimed that all befouling deeds must be done by them, notably sanitation of the world of the Brahmin.
It is the Dalits who must remove the carcasses and the faeces, it is the Dalits who must plough the land and temper the soil. While the Brahmins enjoyed the solitude of study, the Dalits perforce worked the land and kept the environment clean.
AHAD is the defender of a Brahmanical Hinduism, one that denies the mythological world of the epics (Mahabharata and the Ramayana) and the world inhabited by the Dalits and Shudras. Ganesh and Kali cannot be on the toilet, for that is the domain where dirt is left to be removed by the Dalits and Shudras. Is there no place for divinity in the lavatory?
By the way, the Matsyapurana (CLIV, 500-505) tells us that Parvathi (consort of Shiva) created Ganesha from the dirt of her skin or else from her faeces (it is not clear). This is the complex ``Hinduism`` of the Vedic world, something that the champions of `NRI Hinduism` (what Biju Mathew and I call Yankee Hindutva) cannot stomach.
I`m not sure that Ms. Van Dyke and the other merchants of Indo-chic can walk away unscathed by the criticism. From the AHAD it is misplaced, as it is from those who say that only Indians can use Indian things. The latter, the cultural nationalists, are very selective about what they think can and can`t be adopted. We can wear ``western`` clothes, but they can`t wear henna. Or else, they can wear henna, the nationalists say, ``if they know what it means.`` As if we know what everything desi we do means all the time.
But there are two problems for Ms. Van Dyke and others to address. The first is what role Indo-chic plays in the lives of all those white kids who appropriate Asian goods. I have a hunch that this has to do with the suburbs. Our voracious economic machine absorbs all cultural forms and empties them of meaning, makes life into the SUBURB - the highest form of meaninglessness. Can there be a more boring life than that of the suburban youth, filled with a life that is dominated by the bureaucratic management of the schedule (soccer practice at 3, then math tuition, then dinner, then computer class, the horror, the horror). Most young people, white or otherwise, use Indo-chic as a fantasy of being different, of having an experience. For more on this, take a look at a new video called Yellow Apparel: when the coolie becomes cool produced by University of California at Berkeley undergraduates last year (and available for a small fee from Anmol Chaddha who can be reached at chaddha@uclink4.berkeley.edu). So Indo-chic is not about India at all, but it is one of the ways for young people to escape from suburban boredom.
The second reason I`m troubled by Indo-chic and Ms. Van Dyke is the economics of the whole thing. Sunaina Maira, who teaches Anthropology at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst, knows one or two things about Indo-chic. In a fine academic paper (``Henna and Hip Hop: The Politics of Cultural Production and the Work of Cultural Studies`` published in the Journal of Asian American Studies in October 2000), Maira argues that India is not just a feeling, but also ``a shop, in some instances a global sweatshop, where American multinationals browse for cheap labor, cheap goods and profitable market trend ideas.`` So the produce of impoverished desis is transported to the United States by clever merchants who make enormous profits that do not travel back to the desh. AHAD is worried about the images that seem inappropriate. It does nothing about the patterns of profit taking that line the pockets of Madonna and the Henna firms, but do little for the working poor in India.
Where is the AHAD, for instance, when the India Relief and Education Fund (based in Fremont, Calif.) goes after Enron corporation? Just as California faces a utilities rate hikes and power cuts (load shedding in California!), Enron is once again trying to fleece the government of Maharashtra for more profits in its natural gas deal there. If you are interested in this issue, go IREF`s website at http://iref.homestead.com or email Maharaj Kaul at maharaj.kaul@gene.GE.com. He`ll be willing to help you get acquainted with the problem.
Shri, the Goddess of Wealth, resides in cattle s/hit. This is a fabulous allegory for our lives today, but in reverse. The dot.com world today pretends that it is above s/hit, and leaves that part of the universe to the exploited and the oppressed, to the Dalits of the new century. They, the dot.com Yankee Hindus, want to rile us up about images. But we should not be so easily misled. Sure there is something wrong with the use of culture without care (as I`ve shown), but there is also something wrong with an avoidance of the world of s/hit and labor that makes us human after all. Send Anmol an email and get his video; email Maharaj and get involved with the anti-Enron fight.
By Vijay Prashad
There is something wrong with an avoidance of the world of s/hit and labor that makes us human after all.
Yudhisthira, in the Mahabharata, tells his brethren that `I have heard that cowdung is imbued with prosperity.`` Bhishmacharya, the brave who would later be abandoned on the battlefield, recounted the story of Shri (or Laxmi), the Goddess of Wealth. Shri wished to live amongst a herd of cattle, but they rejected her. She persisted, ``I wish to live in any part of your bodies, however repulsive it may be. Indeed I wish to live even in your rectum.`` The cattle, overwhelmed by the goodness of the Goddess, replied that ``O you of great fame. We certainly wish to honor you. Live in our urine and faeces. Both of these are sacred, O Goddess.``
``By good fortune,`` Shri replied, ``you have shown me great favor. Let it be even as you say.`` (Mahabharata, Anushasana Parva, LXXXII, 21-25). Wealth, then, lived amongst faeces.
I`m reminded of this story as the furor over toilets interrupts the wealthy pursuits of the NRI world. A misguided artist, Lamar Van Dyke, created a company (Sittin` Pretty) that make, of all things, toilet seats with the images of Ganesh and Kali on the bottom of the lids. The Bharatiya Janata Party (in India) took the lead from their Jung Parivar allies in the USA and condemned the toilet seats. Pyarelal Khandelwal, of the BJP, said that Ms. Van Dyke has ``done a contemptible thing`` and that it was a direct assault on the feelings of a billion people. In the United States, the AHAD (or what had once been the American Hindu Anti-Defamation Coalition) went on the attack and Ms. Van Dyke received threats to her life.
Nirshan Perera, of rediff.com, did some savvy investigative work to find that Ms. Van Dyke is not connected (as J. P. Mathur of the BJP claimed) to any international ``Christian conspiracy.`` Indeed, he argued, that the ``toilet hullabaloo is an empty house`` (the title of his article). Ms. Van Dyke is an artist who is not unlike so many other purveyors of Indo-chic, from Madonna to the temporary tattoo artists (who use henna). From lunch boxes with calendric art of Shiva to yellow sleeveless shirts with ``Ram`` written in red - these are the emblems of Indo-chic and they pervade our major cities.
There is much to be worried about here, and I`ll get to that later. But first to the AHAD. They appear periodically to make a stink about some rather marginal phenomenon, to get their name in print as the spokespersons of the ``Hindus.`` In 1997 they went after Aerosmith`s Nine Lives album cover (on which an androgynous and feline Krishna), who apologized for their lack of good judgment. And now this graphic artist. The issues are less important than AHAD`s claim that we, as desis, have a primary identification as ``Hindus`` and that we can respond politically as ``Hindus.`` What kind of ``Hinduism`` do these people champion? Is this the eclectic ``Hinduism`` of Yudhistira and Bhishma, of Shri and the faeces of cattle, of that Vedic world which was as yet not fully dominated by a Brahmin elite so that it could revel in the dirt and s/hit of everyday life. My feeling is that AHAD is not the representative of ``Hindus`` but of a weird kind of sanitary Brahmanism. The Laws of Manu tell us that ``an earthen vessel which has touched wine, urine, faeces, spittle, pus or blood cannot be made clean even by firing it again`` (Manavadh-aramshastra, V, 123). Manu`s mission, in the post-Vedic era, was to ensure the dominance of Brahmin men over women of all castes and over those who they deemed not to be twice-born (dvijya), i.e. the Dalits and Shudras. The Brahmins saw the Dalits and Shudras as the enemy and they claimed that all befouling deeds must be done by them, notably sanitation of the world of the Brahmin.
It is the Dalits who must remove the carcasses and the faeces, it is the Dalits who must plough the land and temper the soil. While the Brahmins enjoyed the solitude of study, the Dalits perforce worked the land and kept the environment clean.
AHAD is the defender of a Brahmanical Hinduism, one that denies the mythological world of the epics (Mahabharata and the Ramayana) and the world inhabited by the Dalits and Shudras. Ganesh and Kali cannot be on the toilet, for that is the domain where dirt is left to be removed by the Dalits and Shudras. Is there no place for divinity in the lavatory?
By the way, the Matsyapurana (CLIV, 500-505) tells us that Parvathi (consort of Shiva) created Ganesha from the dirt of her skin or else from her faeces (it is not clear). This is the complex ``Hinduism`` of the Vedic world, something that the champions of `NRI Hinduism` (what Biju Mathew and I call Yankee Hindutva) cannot stomach.
I`m not sure that Ms. Van Dyke and the other merchants of Indo-chic can walk away unscathed by the criticism. From the AHAD it is misplaced, as it is from those who say that only Indians can use Indian things. The latter, the cultural nationalists, are very selective about what they think can and can`t be adopted. We can wear ``western`` clothes, but they can`t wear henna. Or else, they can wear henna, the nationalists say, ``if they know what it means.`` As if we know what everything desi we do means all the time.
But there are two problems for Ms. Van Dyke and others to address. The first is what role Indo-chic plays in the lives of all those white kids who appropriate Asian goods. I have a hunch that this has to do with the suburbs. Our voracious economic machine absorbs all cultural forms and empties them of meaning, makes life into the SUBURB - the highest form of meaninglessness. Can there be a more boring life than that of the suburban youth, filled with a life that is dominated by the bureaucratic management of the schedule (soccer practice at 3, then math tuition, then dinner, then computer class, the horror, the horror). Most young people, white or otherwise, use Indo-chic as a fantasy of being different, of having an experience. For more on this, take a look at a new video called Yellow Apparel: when the coolie becomes cool produced by University of California at Berkeley undergraduates last year (and available for a small fee from Anmol Chaddha who can be reached at chaddha@uclink4.berkeley.edu). So Indo-chic is not about India at all, but it is one of the ways for young people to escape from suburban boredom.
The second reason I`m troubled by Indo-chic and Ms. Van Dyke is the economics of the whole thing. Sunaina Maira, who teaches Anthropology at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst, knows one or two things about Indo-chic. In a fine academic paper (``Henna and Hip Hop: The Politics of Cultural Production and the Work of Cultural Studies`` published in the Journal of Asian American Studies in October 2000), Maira argues that India is not just a feeling, but also ``a shop, in some instances a global sweatshop, where American multinationals browse for cheap labor, cheap goods and profitable market trend ideas.`` So the produce of impoverished desis is transported to the United States by clever merchants who make enormous profits that do not travel back to the desh. AHAD is worried about the images that seem inappropriate. It does nothing about the patterns of profit taking that line the pockets of Madonna and the Henna firms, but do little for the working poor in India.
Where is the AHAD, for instance, when the India Relief and Education Fund (based in Fremont, Calif.) goes after Enron corporation? Just as California faces a utilities rate hikes and power cuts (load shedding in California!), Enron is once again trying to fleece the government of Maharashtra for more profits in its natural gas deal there. If you are interested in this issue, go IREF`s website at http://iref.homestead.com or email Maharaj Kaul at maharaj.kaul@gene.GE.com. He`ll be willing to help you get acquainted with the problem.
Shri, the Goddess of Wealth, resides in cattle s/hit. This is a fabulous allegory for our lives today, but in reverse. The dot.com world today pretends that it is above s/hit, and leaves that part of the universe to the exploited and the oppressed, to the Dalits of the new century. They, the dot.com Yankee Hindus, want to rile us up about images. But we should not be so easily misled. Sure there is something wrong with the use of culture without care (as I`ve shown), but there is also something wrong with an avoidance of the world of s/hit and labor that makes us human after all. Send Anmol an email and get his video; email Maharaj and get involved with the anti-Enron fight.
#277 Posted by progressive on April 29, 2002 9:31:36 pm
RSS Lames Claim Swadeshi Flame Fame
Updated 7:02 PM October 27, 2000
By Sid Harth
Swadeshi had an immaculate conception, though two people are heavily associated with it. Vinayak Damodar Savarkar and Mahatma Gandhi. RSS boys ignored Savarkar as he was found f/ucking around with boys in Ratnagiri, where he was incarcerated after getting pardoned from his Andaman life imprison sentence. Funny, Savarkar was assigned a duty by RSS boys to train and indoctrinate RSS boys, Godse and Apte, among others to assassinate Mahatma Gandhi. So much for RSS boys` latest discovery, `Swadeshi,` more like native pride, self reliance in global sense of the term.
RSS boys also mangled Savarkar`s another theme, `Hindutva,` Hinduness or patriotism without recourse to one`s caste, creed or religious preferences. The way these hoodlums are turning history into a political pawn, for instance Aryan invasion of India, I believe in no time RSS brand of Swadeshi could be anything but what it is supposed to be, another holy Hindu mess.
I have no problems with anyone, including dog s/hit eating saffron monkeys to develope native resources, native skills, native talent and native vision. RSS Swadeshi is none of the above. The first thing RSS Brahmin boys after they get thru schools is sell their mamas, throw them from running trains or something to that effect to land in the western countries. So much for their Swadeshi spirit.
Swadeshi is nothing but tight ass vested interests imposing their will, make it wanton, wicked will on all others, including capable and knowledgeable people in education, industry and the government. The history suggests that not even the chosen disciple, personally anointed by Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru had anything to do with Mahatma Gandhi`s Swadeshi.
As a matter of fact, RSS boys are shouting hoarse about Jawaharlal Nehru betraying Mahatma Gandhi. Mother f/uckers assassinated Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, simply ignored Gandhi. It is not viable under the best conditions as suggested by today`s fast track globalization.
Sid Harth...``The world is closing any and all barriers to a free trade, commerce and exchange of revolutionary ideas. Whereas, the RSS jackasses are closing the doors on progress. How do you like them f/ucked up fascists?``
from www.fortunecity.com
Updated 7:02 PM October 27, 2000
By Sid Harth
Swadeshi had an immaculate conception, though two people are heavily associated with it. Vinayak Damodar Savarkar and Mahatma Gandhi. RSS boys ignored Savarkar as he was found f/ucking around with boys in Ratnagiri, where he was incarcerated after getting pardoned from his Andaman life imprison sentence. Funny, Savarkar was assigned a duty by RSS boys to train and indoctrinate RSS boys, Godse and Apte, among others to assassinate Mahatma Gandhi. So much for RSS boys` latest discovery, `Swadeshi,` more like native pride, self reliance in global sense of the term.
RSS boys also mangled Savarkar`s another theme, `Hindutva,` Hinduness or patriotism without recourse to one`s caste, creed or religious preferences. The way these hoodlums are turning history into a political pawn, for instance Aryan invasion of India, I believe in no time RSS brand of Swadeshi could be anything but what it is supposed to be, another holy Hindu mess.
I have no problems with anyone, including dog s/hit eating saffron monkeys to develope native resources, native skills, native talent and native vision. RSS Swadeshi is none of the above. The first thing RSS Brahmin boys after they get thru schools is sell their mamas, throw them from running trains or something to that effect to land in the western countries. So much for their Swadeshi spirit.
Swadeshi is nothing but tight ass vested interests imposing their will, make it wanton, wicked will on all others, including capable and knowledgeable people in education, industry and the government. The history suggests that not even the chosen disciple, personally anointed by Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru had anything to do with Mahatma Gandhi`s Swadeshi.
As a matter of fact, RSS boys are shouting hoarse about Jawaharlal Nehru betraying Mahatma Gandhi. Mother f/uckers assassinated Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, simply ignored Gandhi. It is not viable under the best conditions as suggested by today`s fast track globalization.
Sid Harth...``The world is closing any and all barriers to a free trade, commerce and exchange of revolutionary ideas. Whereas, the RSS jackasses are closing the doors on progress. How do you like them f/ucked up fascists?``
from www.fortunecity.com
#276 Posted by sattar2 on April 29, 2002 9:31:36 pm
Re Urstruly (#228):
I have absolutely no political agenda as far as human rights are concerned. A human is a human, no matter what ideology he believs in, he feels the pain just the same, his dignity is hurt just the same, his life, his family, the future of his children is destroyed just the same
Huh Urstruly what gives ? After being away for the weekend, I have returned to this on chowk! Whats next ? a confession from tahmed that he is really a transvestite or that over the weekend hamidm has decided to become a hafiz-e-quran?
I have absolutely no political agenda as far as human rights are concerned. A human is a human, no matter what ideology he believs in, he feels the pain just the same, his dignity is hurt just the same, his life, his family, the future of his children is destroyed just the same
Huh Urstruly what gives ? After being away for the weekend, I have returned to this on chowk! Whats next ? a confession from tahmed that he is really a transvestite or that over the weekend hamidm has decided to become a hafiz-e-quran?
#275 Posted by Asim on April 29, 2002 9:31:36 pm
Re Drumz and simplistic pleasures ``Asim: Peace! You went to stanford? This is great, now we can test my lil hypothesis regarding Knowledge, wisdom and ``education.``
You asked if i was consoling myself and I answered no. From there, u magically assumed i came from Pakistan in search of a better life, bla bla. Actually I was born in Toronto. Thats strike one. Now recall, I said ``I am damn sure that most of the people i know could absolutely embarrass any uppity azz, ivy league white boy.`` This is strike two (Im alluding to the fact that going to stanford clearly has not done u much good when it comes to dialogue).``
Asim`s reply : My Dear friend, dont get so caried away in your own rhetoric to fail to see the other`s perspective. Firstly I am not a white boy. Clearly, your education has not taught you to be the least of the virtues of respectful dialogue. Your racial undertones are glimmering brightly through your veneer of decency. Are you a rapper?
Secondly, It is very easy to conduct dastardly adhominem attacks from the secrecy of a ``burq`` on the net. I am a bit exposeds that you know a lot more about myself through my open and frank interactions than I do about you. But trust me the arguments that i presented still hold whether you originated from Timbuctu or some obscure village in Canada. The fact is that you made a conscientious choice, perhaps based on your prejudices(which you exemplified in that succint writeup in two words `white boy`), to attend a not so top league university. You have to live with that decision and be CONTENT. If you were not CONTENT, your life would be hell.
Secondly you ended up reading too much into ``havenots``. This is precielsy what i asked you to explain. You equated my use of ``havenots`` to privilege and wealth. I on the other hand was referring to ``havenots`` in the context of solely ``eduicational/academic`` opportunity. See the mindset difference between ``thou and I``. No wonder you are bound to misinterpet and even distort the truith behind my raison de etre to suit you rneeds in a bid to satisfy yoursefl, ``Hey I am better than that brown fellow who claims of attending Stanford``. By doing this sort of reasoning along with dismissing Harvard, (a 19 billion dollar annual budget University) as being nothing more than an A- handing underdog, You prove to yoursefl the value judgementy of your decision to stay put in your little ``stagnant`` well. And there you shall lie till you give up your inherent prejudices and learn to see the world through objective filters and not just economic-disparity based filters. Are you following any of this. For your sake I hope you do. Let me reiterate nowhere did i imply that going to S, mnade me a bettr person or a better human being. Its only my experiences that are perhaps radically different than yours, and hopefully that initial investmnet of 40 k per year n the long run along with my professor`s recommendation shall help me in my career. That is all. I mysefl can not stand the hype of US universities, in the movies and caps, and license plates etc.
Drumz wrote : These so called ``top notch`` schools really do not teach one how to think. Case and point. ``
Asim`s reply : Dear boy, you did not demonstrate that i could think. You just allowed me to decontsruct your thinking aptitide by giving me just the above paragraph. I hope the others can see my reasoning. The universities as rsaxena stated are not paid to make one think. If you think going to your school in Canada is going to teach you to think. Good luck. Judging from what I have seen so far, good luck to them and to your too Sir.
Drumz: ``The language one uses is indicative of his mindset. U label someone who doesnt go to harvard as a ``Have Not.`` Going to harvard or stanford will not help ones grey matter, it will just help him achieve his power and or status. If one is CONTENT, he doesnt need society to judge him. Not everyone is a follower. Ur debating skills are off, clearly. ``
Asim`s reply : You are hurting you own case by first using words like ``white boy`` and then proclaiming judgemnets on others whoa re tryinbg to be ojective and teahc yoiu a thing or two about language and debating. Your debating record is for all to see. I shal` let an independent jury decide about our relative debating kills. This is not backwaters of Pakistan where one can by virtue of his authority decide and punish defendants just because they say so. Just because you fail to comprehend my logic possibly due to your own shortcomings, your opinion that my debating skills s u c k is exactly that, your opinion.
Drumz wrote : ``My point, as u so elequently demonstrated, was that ivy league schools do not teach someone how to think. You took that idea and magically introduced some scenerio about what would happen if i was given the opportunity. Opportunity??? All u need is a 90 average, and to get that all u need is to study a lot. Study a lot means u have to be good at memorizing and regurgitating data, NOT thinking.``
Lot of long winded proclaimations and generalisations will never help your case. Science is about putting forth hypotheses and for follwoing the arguments to either accept them or dismiss them based on a disclipined and formal inquiry. Without it Science can not flourish. Given that this is a paki site, most of us are from Pakistan or have connections to that land, it was not an incorrect hypothests to imagine if you will the theory that i put forward. Most people do not apply to top notch universdities thinking that they might never be accepted.I will give you my example. After A levels, I decided to go to UK to study as opposed to US thinking that I might not make it to the big ones in U.S. And besiudes I was put off my the nauseous advertising and propaganda of US universities. However for my grad studies, I decided to avail of the opportunity and it turned out I was good enough for them and vice versa. :)
Indeed, Contentment is the secret to a good happy life. Your contentment and mine are however not to the same degree or same standards. That is all my friend! I am content walking the grand hallways of Stanford and interacting with great faculkty, and using the latest gadgets for research and having a high calibre of collegues surround me. At meetings in my practical life, people sit up and notice when I talk, and give me the opportunity to voice my thoughts even though I am the youngest in my group. Imam not saying that is sue to Stanford, but somewhere it provided me the technical edge to virtually hold my own against the best the other universities have had to offer.
Final posting! Never undersell yourself. Peace
You asked if i was consoling myself and I answered no. From there, u magically assumed i came from Pakistan in search of a better life, bla bla. Actually I was born in Toronto. Thats strike one. Now recall, I said ``I am damn sure that most of the people i know could absolutely embarrass any uppity azz, ivy league white boy.`` This is strike two (Im alluding to the fact that going to stanford clearly has not done u much good when it comes to dialogue).``
Asim`s reply : My Dear friend, dont get so caried away in your own rhetoric to fail to see the other`s perspective. Firstly I am not a white boy. Clearly, your education has not taught you to be the least of the virtues of respectful dialogue. Your racial undertones are glimmering brightly through your veneer of decency. Are you a rapper?
Secondly, It is very easy to conduct dastardly adhominem attacks from the secrecy of a ``burq`` on the net. I am a bit exposeds that you know a lot more about myself through my open and frank interactions than I do about you. But trust me the arguments that i presented still hold whether you originated from Timbuctu or some obscure village in Canada. The fact is that you made a conscientious choice, perhaps based on your prejudices(which you exemplified in that succint writeup in two words `white boy`), to attend a not so top league university. You have to live with that decision and be CONTENT. If you were not CONTENT, your life would be hell.
Secondly you ended up reading too much into ``havenots``. This is precielsy what i asked you to explain. You equated my use of ``havenots`` to privilege and wealth. I on the other hand was referring to ``havenots`` in the context of solely ``eduicational/academic`` opportunity. See the mindset difference between ``thou and I``. No wonder you are bound to misinterpet and even distort the truith behind my raison de etre to suit you rneeds in a bid to satisfy yoursefl, ``Hey I am better than that brown fellow who claims of attending Stanford``. By doing this sort of reasoning along with dismissing Harvard, (a 19 billion dollar annual budget University) as being nothing more than an A- handing underdog, You prove to yoursefl the value judgementy of your decision to stay put in your little ``stagnant`` well. And there you shall lie till you give up your inherent prejudices and learn to see the world through objective filters and not just economic-disparity based filters. Are you following any of this. For your sake I hope you do. Let me reiterate nowhere did i imply that going to S, mnade me a bettr person or a better human being. Its only my experiences that are perhaps radically different than yours, and hopefully that initial investmnet of 40 k per year n the long run along with my professor`s recommendation shall help me in my career. That is all. I mysefl can not stand the hype of US universities, in the movies and caps, and license plates etc.
Drumz wrote : These so called ``top notch`` schools really do not teach one how to think. Case and point. ``
Asim`s reply : Dear boy, you did not demonstrate that i could think. You just allowed me to decontsruct your thinking aptitide by giving me just the above paragraph. I hope the others can see my reasoning. The universities as rsaxena stated are not paid to make one think. If you think going to your school in Canada is going to teach you to think. Good luck. Judging from what I have seen so far, good luck to them and to your too Sir.
Drumz: ``The language one uses is indicative of his mindset. U label someone who doesnt go to harvard as a ``Have Not.`` Going to harvard or stanford will not help ones grey matter, it will just help him achieve his power and or status. If one is CONTENT, he doesnt need society to judge him. Not everyone is a follower. Ur debating skills are off, clearly. ``
Asim`s reply : You are hurting you own case by first using words like ``white boy`` and then proclaiming judgemnets on others whoa re tryinbg to be ojective and teahc yoiu a thing or two about language and debating. Your debating record is for all to see. I shal` let an independent jury decide about our relative debating kills. This is not backwaters of Pakistan where one can by virtue of his authority decide and punish defendants just because they say so. Just because you fail to comprehend my logic possibly due to your own shortcomings, your opinion that my debating skills s u c k is exactly that, your opinion.
Drumz wrote : ``My point, as u so elequently demonstrated, was that ivy league schools do not teach someone how to think. You took that idea and magically introduced some scenerio about what would happen if i was given the opportunity. Opportunity??? All u need is a 90 average, and to get that all u need is to study a lot. Study a lot means u have to be good at memorizing and regurgitating data, NOT thinking.``
Lot of long winded proclaimations and generalisations will never help your case. Science is about putting forth hypotheses and for follwoing the arguments to either accept them or dismiss them based on a disclipined and formal inquiry. Without it Science can not flourish. Given that this is a paki site, most of us are from Pakistan or have connections to that land, it was not an incorrect hypothests to imagine if you will the theory that i put forward. Most people do not apply to top notch universdities thinking that they might never be accepted.I will give you my example. After A levels, I decided to go to UK to study as opposed to US thinking that I might not make it to the big ones in U.S. And besiudes I was put off my the nauseous advertising and propaganda of US universities. However for my grad studies, I decided to avail of the opportunity and it turned out I was good enough for them and vice versa. :)
Indeed, Contentment is the secret to a good happy life. Your contentment and mine are however not to the same degree or same standards. That is all my friend! I am content walking the grand hallways of Stanford and interacting with great faculkty, and using the latest gadgets for research and having a high calibre of collegues surround me. At meetings in my practical life, people sit up and notice when I talk, and give me the opportunity to voice my thoughts even though I am the youngest in my group. Imam not saying that is sue to Stanford, but somewhere it provided me the technical edge to virtually hold my own against the best the other universities have had to offer.
Final posting! Never undersell yourself. Peace
#274 Posted by Asim on April 29, 2002 9:31:36 pm
Tahmed 269 : ``And all muslims (except, it seems, with the exception of Mr. Asim Hayat) are aware that the Day of Judgement is reserved, per the Quran, for all humanity and not just muslims. Being a muslims is no big deal, per the Quran, and it is only chauvinistic muslims who think it is.``
The above jibe was totally uncalled for.Dear Mullah Tahmed, if I did not know any better I would have alleged that you,(a Muslim fellow are trying to claim that I am not a good Muslim(without the slightest of evidence), which in itself is haram. No Muslim should judge other Muslims except themsleves. No go and ask forgiveness from Allah for committing this sin in full public view.
The above jibe was totally uncalled for.Dear Mullah Tahmed, if I did not know any better I would have alleged that you,(a Muslim fellow are trying to claim that I am not a good Muslim(without the slightest of evidence), which in itself is haram. No Muslim should judge other Muslims except themsleves. No go and ask forgiveness from Allah for committing this sin in full public view.
#273 Posted by Asim on April 29, 2002 9:31:36 pm
re: DRUMZ
{My point, as u so elequently demonstrated, was that ivy league schools do not teach someone how to think. }
As Rsaxena correctly pointed out, it is not their job to do so. Its in your interest to do so. I can only empathise at your understanding of what universities are supposed to or not supposed to do. It is for the purpose of developing onself (i.e expanding one`s horizons) and not for expecting Uni`s to teach you to think amongst other fallcious reasons such as developing, morality or decency as Tahmed claims, that one attends universities, right Drumz.
{My point, as u so elequently demonstrated, was that ivy league schools do not teach someone how to think. }
As Rsaxena correctly pointed out, it is not their job to do so. Its in your interest to do so. I can only empathise at your understanding of what universities are supposed to or not supposed to do. It is for the purpose of developing onself (i.e expanding one`s horizons) and not for expecting Uni`s to teach you to think amongst other fallcious reasons such as developing, morality or decency as Tahmed claims, that one attends universities, right Drumz.
#272 Posted by arjun_m on April 29, 2002 9:31:36 pm
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#271 Posted by arjun_m on April 29, 2002 9:31:36 pm
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#270 Posted by DRUMZ on April 29, 2002 9:31:36 pm
Tahmed: I think these days, a lotta people in Islam realize that parts of Islam are incorrect. These parts conflict with our general idea of what Allah, truth, goodness are. Now, its interesting to notice how people deal with this conflict. Some people leave islam, some people cloud over the more harsher aspects of Islam etc. Im not here to judge: this is what i get by observing. All of u are right and wrong. I agree and disagree with u. Ill just put the stuff i disagree about here. U say:
``the basic message of Islam: i.e. (a) respect for all religions, and (b) that no man, not even the Holy Prophet, shares divinity with God.``
1. Thats inconsistent with itself (what if a religion believes that man and God are one and the same)? How can u respect that which u think is wrong? And not just finitely wrong, but eternally wrong...
2. ``Those who misbelieve... they are followers of the fire, they shall dwell there forever.`` (2:87)
``He who associates God with anything will dwell in fire`` (5:76). Actually im not gonna bother quoting anymore. We all know such verses are all over the Quran. Plus the killin of jews etc.
3. Now u can counter with verses of tolerance. The point is that those who hate other religions can find support for their beliefs in the Quran (just like u can find support for ur position). This has to do with Islams hidden jewel. In Islam, both ``rite and wrong`` people are correct. One interprets scripture based on her level of understanding. Its all relative to the spirituality of that person.
``the basic message of Islam: i.e. (a) respect for all religions, and (b) that no man, not even the Holy Prophet, shares divinity with God.``
1. Thats inconsistent with itself (what if a religion believes that man and God are one and the same)? How can u respect that which u think is wrong? And not just finitely wrong, but eternally wrong...
2. ``Those who misbelieve... they are followers of the fire, they shall dwell there forever.`` (2:87)
``He who associates God with anything will dwell in fire`` (5:76). Actually im not gonna bother quoting anymore. We all know such verses are all over the Quran. Plus the killin of jews etc.
3. Now u can counter with verses of tolerance. The point is that those who hate other religions can find support for their beliefs in the Quran (just like u can find support for ur position). This has to do with Islams hidden jewel. In Islam, both ``rite and wrong`` people are correct. One interprets scripture based on her level of understanding. Its all relative to the spirituality of that person.
#269 Posted by DRUMZ on April 29, 2002 9:31:36 pm
RSaxena: Our definitions of ``thought`` are not the same. (Find our where the word comes from).
So when i talk about thought, im not refering to any simple azz process. Its much bigger then seeing the letters on this post, makin them into words, and taking a stance. School doesnt do sh1t for anyone`s thinking ability (case and point, most chowkies are well educated).
This is what i call thinking. The ability to understand what is written on this post. The ability to understand WHY it is written (Why do i have this particular point of view?). To understand me, u must spend time understanding yourself. Why was it written at this time/place? Then analyze and synthesize. Know the issue inside out. Now ur half done, at this point, develop ur own point of view, understand it and defend it. Now synthesize ur idea with its antitheses (same with mine) so that u have an idea of the big picture. (BTW a SEVENTEEN year old sister told me this - Take that to Standford).
There are a lotta one dimensional, one sided clowns on this site cuz they dont know how to think. They cant comprehend opposing ideas, they talk about the same sh1t over and over. This is why buddha said ``No opinions.``
``the school is there to add breadth and depth to your ability to think...``
Meditate on the western education system. It is fundamentally flawed. The height (or depth?) of stupidity. It lebels the work done by the left hemisphere of our brain as ``the basics.`` The right HALF of our brain is considered secondary. They stimilate and use half their brains. Infact teaching is perhaps the only profession where the person performing the job doesnt know what he is doing. They dont know how the learning process works, so how can they add depth to it?
So when i talk about thought, im not refering to any simple azz process. Its much bigger then seeing the letters on this post, makin them into words, and taking a stance. School doesnt do sh1t for anyone`s thinking ability (case and point, most chowkies are well educated).
This is what i call thinking. The ability to understand what is written on this post. The ability to understand WHY it is written (Why do i have this particular point of view?). To understand me, u must spend time understanding yourself. Why was it written at this time/place? Then analyze and synthesize. Know the issue inside out. Now ur half done, at this point, develop ur own point of view, understand it and defend it. Now synthesize ur idea with its antitheses (same with mine) so that u have an idea of the big picture. (BTW a SEVENTEEN year old sister told me this - Take that to Standford).
There are a lotta one dimensional, one sided clowns on this site cuz they dont know how to think. They cant comprehend opposing ideas, they talk about the same sh1t over and over. This is why buddha said ``No opinions.``
``the school is there to add breadth and depth to your ability to think...``
Meditate on the western education system. It is fundamentally flawed. The height (or depth?) of stupidity. It lebels the work done by the left hemisphere of our brain as ``the basics.`` The right HALF of our brain is considered secondary. They stimilate and use half their brains. Infact teaching is perhaps the only profession where the person performing the job doesnt know what he is doing. They dont know how the learning process works, so how can they add depth to it?
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