Regarding the Stupid White Men

Urstruly : It is a shame that you found something amusing with what I wrote, about how political dissent is traeted in so-called Muslim countries, including Paksitan. If you dont beleive in words of dissidents in these countries because it goes against your political agenda then beleive what your master white mans`s Amnesty International, Asia Watch``

For starters I do not have a political agenda here. My agenda if you will is to increase the ability of my countrymen to become a bit more secular and ``live and let live``. Religion should be a personal matter not to be worn on the sleeve and displayed shamelessly at every single opportunity one gets. We arenot trying to impress others by telling the world that we are better Muslims than Mr Feeqa from Lahore. At the end of the day if we are, good for us; if not we are going to be Kebabs anyways. The point I am trying to make is that there is more to life than religion. If religion were everything, by committing suicide at puberty, i.e when one becomes aware of the world areound us, one would not have had to commit any sins, and would therebore be as pure a Mulsim as one could be. I am speaking from my experiences in Pakistan before age 18 say. But have you ever wonderd why Islam forbids suicide. Because this worls is equally important along with the after life. And not just for praying and giving zakat and performing multiple Hajj on government fundedd trips by the militray walay mussalman. No Sir, Its about improving the understanding of HIS universe by application of science and technology and thus discovering the marvels of science hidden behind veils of obscurty, or finding cures to help fight diseases. to give somethingt back to humanity. to beocme better people through education and self fulfilment. We Pakistani are so obssessed with religion we have forgotten if ther eis anything else to talk about, specially in the west. We make our home here, we get numerous benefits from the west on a persobnal level, but in true hypocrite manner we would be the first ones to sing praises of a Pakistan we left behind by running away and yet bad mouth the very freedome of choice that we came here for. Of course there are exceptions when one sees what is happening in Jenin and other Muslim opporessed areas. But then we must take a stand and go back to our repsective retrogressive, repressive regimes and learn to be happy there as opposed to sitting here and painting rosy pictures of how great our Pakistan is.

You feel very offended about how i triedto make fun of your dissident ``theories``. Dissidents anywahere in the world have a hard time, much more so in the Islamic wold due to the lack of seclarism in the islamic countries. Tolerance of an opposing view is a virtue we are too short of. We are willing to go colliding with whomsoever just because they happen to say something different to our preconceived notions of ``facts`` and ``tuths``. Islam gets used as a tool to further the hatred of ethnicities and for declaring people kafir and non Mulims. Hell to get even a damn Paki passport renewed I personally will have to be witness to conceming that such asnsect sect of Islam is non Muslim. And idiots of this world alal Tahmed want to sell their sugarcoated propaganda that Islam is secular. If Islam is secular, why do I have to denigrate others who practice it slightly differen tan we do.

To be honest I had never heard of dogs being used to bugger people, except here in the good old west, where apparently they do it for fun. Can`tbe all that bad! Okay I am kidding again. BTW, you lost me on all that ``homo`` stuff. Is that something you know a lot about.

Tahemed,

Are we running from a good debate where the fallacies of your rather adhoc declarations are coming home to nip you in the bud? Its all right we all understand that too much religion shoving sown other`s throats takes away the grey matter, for one to argue sensibly and coherently.

Please refrain from making gross generalisations in the future. Clearly you have no argumnet to counter my replies which focussed primarily on countering your asinine prejudices that you might harbour for the top US universities. It is oaky I would not expect you to understand. From what I have seen here, whenever you have been cornered, rather than admitting your flawa in your logic, you have always taken the easy way out. Now that is also a reflection of those valus of honesty, decency and modesty and civility you are aksing schools to provide to your kids rather than leading by exmaple. Its okay. We aall are not as perfect as we try ourselves to be on the internet!

Sir, its very easy to jiust mouth off some deepsetated prejudices, as opposed to defedning them through soundlogic and argument.

On another note, Secularism and Islam are irreconciliable. It`s a bit like

East is East and West is west

and never the twain shall meet

All those religious pedagogues such as yourself, babble about Islam and Secularism and try to justify it, using pure ``rhetoric``. The fact remaisn as far as Islam is concerend all those who are not Muslims are infidels, and are not destined for heavens even by a long shot. Is that secularims in any shape or form? In fact no religions is secular. Religions because they promote one set of competing beliefs against another set, cant never be secular by the virtue of their ``design``. Even then Christianity comes close to being pseudo-secular herre in the west. None of these guys spray a barrage of bullets while Mulsims are praying in mosques in their countries unlike our our own where killing s ``Shiites while at prayers has become a latsdt fashions statement. You talk of secularims when people practicing Islam take it upon themselves to be the court, lawyer and all for determining who is a Mulsim or not.

Despite all the above, I am a Muslim. Because once one gets away from the politics of Islam, I find that on a personal level it offers a great way of life. Yet i will label people who equate Islam and secularism as agneda driven Islamic obscurantists.

Disclaimer - attn chowkies

Post 209 - not the real hobbyty -

My post#209 was intended for Tahmed.Apologoes for the slipup.

sadna:

``2. No major terrorist attacks in India``

…before dec. 12 and the subsequent deployment of indian troops, when was the last major terrorist attack in india, not counting kashmir?….

re: tahmed # 203

``The prophet himself was a human being, capable of making mistakes like all humans.``

That is one statement most non-Muslims never thought they would hear a Muslim make. That is the kind of rationalist, open Islam everybody - whether Muslim or non-Muslim - can respect.

DRUMZ #210,

we`ll see about that :)

Asim Hayat #195,

the only way you can be true to your stellar Ivy League education is to match it with a stellar attitude. don`t disrespect and antagonize others for not being of Ivy League standing. it just proves the concept that it`s all in the mind, not the alma mater.

not everyone needs to be attached to a NAME to be happy..... i think it`s wonderful, for you, that you`re smart enough (on paper) to get into Stanford, but don`t forget the fact that there are

equally smart people that don`t go to Stanford or Harvard.....they might not run around in cliques and they probably won`t land those coveted top notch jobs (as Suxena rightfully points out), but intelligence and hard work have the ability of shining through no matter what.

now don`t go responding to this post with a bitter ``oh u couldn`t get into an ivy league school`` bull.... thankfully, i`m not in a profession that relies on alma maters.....if i was, i`d probably try my damned best to get into the top business/engineering schools.

it`s all a matter of individual perspective and the choices that we make....as long as the individual is satisfied, that`s all that matters.

Mulla Santa Claus:

You write nothing but ``quotable quotes``.You rush in where angels fear to tread.Your self-loathing is exceeded only by your stupidity.

But then some have been created to be a lesson to others.You are such a fine specimen indeed.

There,indeed,is a purpose in His creation.

Asim Hayat

It is a shame that you found something amusing with what I wrote, about how political dissent is traeted in so-called Muslim countries, including Paksitan. If you dont beleive in words of dissidents in these countries because it goes against your political agenda then beleive what your master white mans`s Amnesty International, Asia Watch, International Action Center, and UN Human Rights Commission say. But in order to accept that as a serious matter and not a sick joke you have to be a Homo Sapien with a heart and not just a Homo Erectus (with a club).

Asim Hayat #195 You are clearly upset at my mentioning the possibility of third rate individuals coming out of first rate universities. So you are ignoring what I am writing, and I see you making up for yourself what I said and then ridiculing that. You dont need me, since you are doing a fine job all by yourself. Goodbye.

PS: You dont have a clue where I studied in Pakistan or in the USA, or where I worked, so dont assume I am a product of the madrassah simply because I refer to the Quran.

re: ylh

{I suggest every Pakistani poster on this post get up from his or her seat and salute the brave and mighty Indian Airforce.}

...to accompany their pakistani friends, i suggest every indian poster get up from his or her seat and salute the brave pakistani army that has lost 3 wars and half the country...and a double salute for surrendering an unbelievable 90,000 men...

Asim: ``Is that how you console yourself for your lack of opportunity of attending one of these A- handing top notch universities?``

Peace. What u call an opportunity is infact a carrot dangling off a stick. Not everyone is a follower.

``The Have nots always appear to vote for contentment while given half an opportunity they would be the ones crying out fropm top of domehsaped mausoleums about how equitable the educational system is at these overcharging and underperforming universities.``

Firstly, im not a ``have not.`` Callin me a have not cuz i dont go to harvard is indicative of ur mindset. Secondly, ur debating skills need sharpening. U deflected the original criticism, and placed it in another context. I am CONTENT.

Scout: I do that nature sh1t all the time, i love takin walks, meditating next to trees, etc etc. Now its ur turn. Come to toronto; you`ll burn more weed then a lazy gardiner.

You response is highly gratifying and very defensive.It might help in clearing matters if you have the courage to speak the truth and not fall in the trap of the secularists.

There is no doubt that secularism contradicts Islam in every aspect. They are two different paths that never meet; choosing one means rejecting the other. Hence, whoever chooses Islam has to reject secularism. The status of secularism and its relation to Islam are clear. But the ignorance about the Islamic truth is still dominating the Muslim`s mind. Most secular systems repeat slogans like ``no religion in politics and no politics in religion`` or ``religion is for Allah, and the state is for the people.`` Such sayings portray their view of Islam as a religion to be practiced in the mosque only, and that it should not be allowed to rule life outside the mosque. Furthermore, they try to deceive people with democratic slogans like ``personal freedom`` and ``people governing people.`` That means that people come first and no place is made for the ruling of Allah.

Dont let the curse of secularism neuter your intellect.

Sadna,

Oh please give it up... you make sense only in your own twisted little world.

By the way did you learn how to use the Mouse yet... or should I give you directions on this board too? You know about the quote you failed to see on the other board...

Here are the directions:

This is the Website:

http://www.dr-ambedkar.com/writings/42.%20Mr.%20Gandhi%20and%20The%20Emancipation%20of%20The%20Untouchables.htm

Highlight using your Mouse... then cut it and paste it in the URL space.. then press Enter ..

Then Go down to Chapter X and start reading...

Babasaheb Ambedkar says about Gandhiji:

``Every Hindu is a social Tory and political Radical. Mr Gandhi is no exception to this rule. He presents himself to the world as a liberal but his liberalism is only a very thin veneer which sits very lightly on him as dust does on one`s boots. You scratch him and you will find that underneath his liberalism he is a blue blooded Tory. He stands for the cursed caste. He is a fanatic Hindu upholding the Hindu religion.``

Also feel free to use `Control F` to find the word `Gandhi`... it is spelt G A N D H I ... Hopefuly you will find it this time around.. I mean I can understand your not finding it the first time around... I don`t have anything against people who are naturally born slow.

-YLH

re: TAhmed

{{ Agreed that best jobs are not restricted to 9-5 corporations. Indeed, lately an increasing number of college graduates (the majority, I believe, from some of the top universities) are seeking to work independently rather than follow the traditional route and become the Organization Man (or Salaly Man, in Japan). }}

...i don`t think you understood me...maybe b.c. i didn`t communicate clearly...by large corporation, i mean the IBMs and Proctor & Gamble types....great, big, venerable companies, these...but they are not dream jobs for the best new grads (with the exception of some PhDs going into R&D positions)...as hamidm said, the big game is the strategy management consulting firms (McKinsey, etc.) and investment banks, and they usually recruit only at the top 10...the differences in salary, responsibility, and challenge between an entry-level industry job and an entry-position at a top strategy firm are staggering...

...last week someone was telling me that to break into the super-elite world of private equity and venture capital firms, you have to go through a nasty old boys network of MBAs from Harvard or Stanford...if your resume doesn`t say the same, it will likely be in the trash can...not right, but that`s life...

...as for tech jobs, start-ups still seem to be the game in town...the best look like mini-campuses of Stanford, MIT, Cornell, etc...

SOURCES, QUOTES AND POSTS,

Hopefuly, all of us have gone to college here so I am hoping that what I am going to say will be understandable:

I see that certain `intellectuals` from the other side have now taken to quote from an article which was written some 55 years ago (the article that Carl Posey copied the quote out of) by if I am not mistaken, none other than Mr.Louis Fischer who was a self avowed Gandhian and who is admitted amongst the academics to be biased.

Mr.Fischer in his book `Essential Gandhi` is so blinded by Gandhian brainwashing, that he actually seems to be arguing that Jinnah was incorruptible and that is why Jinnah was a man of hate. This argument doesn`t make sense.

On the contrary if the argument is : Jinnah made Pakistan so he is a man of hate, that is a matter of perspective and is an esoteric question depending on what one knows about the issue and how one approaches it. I personally consider him a man of love who created Pakistan out of his love for the people he was representing. So a partisan argument by Louis Fischer is NOT admissible except as a `perspective` and not as a gospel of truth.

Now, on the contrary my quote from Dr.Ambedkar on Gandhi is part of a cogent argument. Dr.Ambedkar is arguing against caste Hindu domination of which Gandhi is an embodiment. Hence to Dr.Ambedkar Gandhi is a Hindu Fanatic, as he is to me too. This is by no means an objective analysis ... but is indicative of the perspective that we have chosen to take. Nevertheless the argument that Dr.Ambedkar presents in calling Gandhi `a Hindu fanatic` is by any standards are more justified one than Louis Fischer`s `Jinnah is incorruptible so he is a man of hate` or `Jinnah made Pakistan so he is a man of hate`.

This is how educated people should approach things... not like rsidhar with his nonsense, or a naive little Akash .. who doesn`t even know half the time what he is talking about.

-YLH