Regarding the Stupid White Men

Very factual reply Mr Gill. Good article as well.

What little calculus I know is from my A levels and then through my undergrad Enginneering on to Advanced Courses on Integral and differential calculus as part of my Master`s Degree at Stanford. I have used it in my current job. But i guess knowing calculus does not automatically help one understand the history behind it. My Calculus professor at Stanford asked us to not go too much into the semantics of who invented what, rather to learn the ``damn`` tool and apply it. My amended reply indicates my reasoning for saying that without Mr Khwarizmi, Calculus was not possible. In a way,I guess i am trying to argue that without the contributions of a brown man, Newton the genius of his own time would have had to spend time inventing algebra first rather than building on it to create a new mathemtical tool.

Yes you are absolutely right;I was indeed trying to claim a moral scientific coup for us, the beleaguered Mulsims.So what that major breakthrough came almost 12 centuries ago.

You are very astute in observing ``What have we Muslims achieved recently``. Apart from blowing up buildings, not much. But the again, the white man has taken a lot more from us than he has given back, if only in scholarships to his best universities.

Best Regards

Asim

Folks: hobbyty #13 is a Hindutva rat incidentally, masquerading as hobbyty.

Curiously, no body has suggested so far that the language in which we are communicating, English, is the whiteman`s language.So what? There is an annual publication called Annual of the Urdu Studies which is edited and published by Dr. Muhammad Memon. This is a worth reading publication.Some of the papers published in its recent issue are:

A Gift of Ghazals by Louis Werner

Problems of Teaching Urdu in Germany: A Foreigner`s Reflections on the Status of Urdu, by Christina Oesterheld

Urdu in India, by David Matthews

The publication is dedicated to the memory of Dr. Asghar Ali Shahid, who was a Kashmiri-American and died young at the age of 52 years. He taught Creative Writing at the University of Utah and several other institutes. He wrote Ghazals in English. Ralph Russell, a Reader Emeritus, at the School of Oriental and African Studies, London University, has devoted his life for reading Urdu and researching Urdu literature, and more importantly teaching it. The Urdu annual that I described above, has an Urdu paper in Urdu script written by Russell; the title of the paper is ``Shadam Az Zindig-e-Khesh (I am happy with my life)``. The creative intellectuals do not divide human thought and activity by drawing separating lines.

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Folks: hobbyty #13 is a Hindutva rat incidentally, masquerading as hobbyty.

}

Dosent make a difference if an Islamic rat turns into a Hindutva rat.

And what about Algorithms?? Originated from Al-Khwarizmi (duly acknowledged by the white man)!

veeresh - ``White man still can`t make a good kabab, however``

??? but he can make a darn good steak !!

hayat #18 ``the white man has taken a lot more from us than he has given back, if only in scholarships to his best universities.``

So: it is the west that is learning from desis who come as students in universities in the US and UK, not vice versa. Very interesting. Do you also ask the professors to take a test at the end of each semester to see what they have learnt from you?

Hayat #18 As for calculus not being possible without Al-Khwarizm, please note that the Arabs themselves learnt from the Greeks and the Hindus Baghdad used to have scholars visiting from the west and the east, and that is how greek achievements in geometry and hindu achievements in math were learnt by the muslims. Your muslim chauvinism in claiming the muslims are at the foundation of all learning is a perfect example of the depths to which the muslims have fallen - converting your wishful thinking into ``facts`` (as you demonstrated on calculus), unwilling to accept that we all stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. You have a lot to learn, like all chauvinists.

Mr. Butthead321

I think Asim Hayat is trying to start a serious conversation, and by any stretch of imagination he is not putting down white men-that is your masters. Asim bashing was unnecessary and uncalled for. It only shows the buttheadedness of a person who projects himself as the self-appointed minister of vice and virtue at Chowk and a self-proclaimed harbinger of decency.

yours truly
Beavis

BTW, the fact Muslims learnt math from the Greeks and the Hindus and built upon it shows something brilliant about them. Societies begin to decay, degenerate, and stink when they stop learning from others. We Indians should know. We have been there.

Three cheers for societies that were open, that were eagerly learning from others, and didn`t feel they had learnt all there was to learn.

Tshmed seething with self rightoeus rage wrote: ``So it is the west that is learning from desis who come as students in universities in the US and UK, not vice versa. Very interesting. Do you also ask the professors to take a test at the end of each semester to see what they have learnt from you?``

Please take the time to read and try to understand what i wrote. Here it is again. ``But the again, the white man has taken a lot more from us than he has given back, if only in scholarships to his best universities.`` All I am saying is that just because 8 students from Pakistan get scholarships at Stanford every eyar to study sciences and engineering is not enough given that the western hegemonic forces have isolated the east from the west. The Empire robbed and plundered the resources of the indian subcontinent. Giving a few the opportunity to compete against ``their`` best at these universities does not make up for the intellectual and economical subjugation of the ``have-nots`` like us. I am under no illusion that my professors should be subjected to tests to gauge how much they learnt from Urstruly :)

Rather, I would go so far as to claim that the business of top Universities in U.S at the Masters and Phd level thrives on the input of the brown man as well. Stanford admits some 200 odd brown indians (vs our 8 brown Pakis) to graduate programmes every years, not to mention a few Bangladeshis. Similar is the trend at other leading light universities.

When I first went to Stanford, my professor who alos happened to be a leading researcher in my field, told em ``Asim you have been given the opportunity to create to something out of nothing``. Tahmed surely you do know why scholarships and fellowships are created in US. To gain and enrich the fields of study with diverse opinions and most importnatly groundbreaking ideas. A researcher might get paid about 3 times as much as a ``Desi`` grad student and will complain from twice as much about lack of resources. Thus the ``brown`` desi men are preferred over formal researchers. Its a handshake of sorts. Coming from athird world country It helps people like me and many others to realise a dream here in US, and for the University to utilise the best Pakistan has to offer at barely minimum wages. ``Brown`` men like mysefl whom you disdain for being strong enough to speak out, actually present the scientific work we do at conferences(acknolwledgoing the support of universities like Stanford) and journals. Nothing is for free. Science gains! A few of us go up to do wild and exciting things which we could not have done back home. I was simply questioning this balance. A few of us gaining at the cost of the majority in Iran, Iraq, and Pakistan, when all that ``they`` acquired was by hegemony, initially imperial hegemony and now economic hegemeony.

Surely now you can see where I was coming from. The ``brown`` peopel are contribiuting to science. This number si bound to increase over time, as more and more brown people have the economic constraints filled out according to Maslows` theory to be able to accomplish a bit more than just sustenance.

Unlike yoursefl, the white man knows the importance of foreign students from thirs world countries. According to the Economist ``At Harvard, for instance, 50% of the students enjoy “scholarships” from the university worth, on average, $19,000 (£13,400) a year. But then, by many estimates, Harvard is the second biggest charity in the world after the Roman Catholic church.`` Amazing Trivia Info:) Ever wondered why Harvard a bastion of tradition and learning would pass of such savings to the students. Because unlike yourself they are not averse to admitting

that studnets are the life of the university. Thye nd up contributing as much if not more at various levels back into the university life than the flow of information from the Dons down to them. These days the Professsors are too busy with their reaearch as well, So grad students end up teraching a lot of courses, with little or no interventions from the Professors. I guess you will have to eat your heart out, when you will learn that most of the really brilleint profesosrs can not teach. They are inarticulate and often end of confusing the younger folks. Grad students ebcause they have been through the ordeal of learning from XYZ professorr know how to explain things better ina way which a student can understand.

My professor at Stanford is a leading light within my field. He has been the department chair at Stanford, in an all white man departmnet. He is perhaps the mlost cited man in my field, with numerous books to his credit. He is a decent man, an American. He is from Pakistan just like myself and is proud to acknolwedge that!

Arriverderci mio caro Amico,

Asim

Comparing a steak to a kebab is trying to equate cybersex with the real thing.

There is effort and love that goes into a good kebab. There is usually not much more than a well fed animal and a sharp knife into a good steak.

Or is there?

Anycase, I am also informed by Secret Agent Momo & Manto-do-pyaaza-da-puttar that a particular morose thin gentleman from Bombay discovered steaks and further invented them while beating his meat one monsoon afternoon after defending Gokhale, Tilak & Savarkar.

whatever

``Hayat #18 As for calculus not being possible without Al-Khwarizm, please note that the Arabs themselves learnt from the Greeks and the Hindus Baghdad used to have scholars visiting from the west and the east, and that is how greek achievements in geometry and hindu achievements in math were learnt by the muslims. Your muslim chauvinism in claiming the muslims are at the foundation of all learning is a perfect example of the depths to which the muslims have fallen - converting your wishful thinking into ``facts`` (as you demonstrated on calculus), unwilling to accept that we all stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. You have a lot to learn, like all chauvinists.``

Phaijee,

Inna ghuussa. Ki gal hai, woti ney roti neyyo ditti?

Time and again, I am amazed at the sheer ability of Pakis to making statemnet on one`s behalf which have nothing to do with the original piece. Are you a paki medical doctor. I am forced to come to ask that qustion based on your ability to or the leack thereof of understanding coherent dialogue and using some logic given the context of the ``whole`` reply to be able to see what I am trying to say. Unless of course you are a born wreteched person, revelling in self denial and hatred of his own species, and sufferring from an acute form of ``inferiority`` complex.

Do u even know the meanning of a big word like ``chauvinist``. I am afraid I am not an Islamic crusader given the fact that you muyst have seen me interact here for almost more than 4 years. However, based on your reasoninbg ability, Ask Mommy before interacting any further. Ciao

Here is a Letter I wrote to the Economist about their patronising claims that Harvard is an educational charity. Basically Economist took the same patroning view that Tahmed holds that the universities are doing the foriegn students a favour. Might shed some more light on what i was trying to say which Mr Tahmed did not have the foggies about.

Sir,

Your article entitled “Brown-nosing” in the June 28th 2001 issue, made an eye-catching statement, ``At Harvard, for instance, 50% of the students

enjoy ``scholarships`` from the university worth, on average, $19,000

(£13,400) a year. But then, by many estimates, Harvard is the second biggest

charity in the world after the Roman Catholic church``. The implicit patronizing tone of the article notwithstanding, the concept of an “educational charity”, as you called it, compelled me to write a few words. I very much doubt that this letter shall ever grace your vaulted magazine’s feedback section, one can only try to get some points across,, and keep one’s fingers crossed.



It is simply amazing not to mention entertaining for one to see that the British “establishment” still suffers from a form of a supremacist disorder, despite having suffered some serious setbacks in the 20th century. Yet one would have expected that a reputable ``middle of the road`` magazine, like The Economist to be more calculating in their choice of words, not to mention checking the liberal dispensation of preposterous notions about ``educational`` charities. The fact that the article chose to downplay the extent of the benefit US gets from these so-called “educational charities”, just shows the tunnel vision, in so far as the British educational system is concerned where the elitist touch is very much there. Sadly, the British educationists are too busy counting their pennies and farthings by keeping their own ``lower-classes`` out of universities, specially the elitist

universities such as Cambridge and Oxford, just so that the country can be

run by ``old wealth”, not to mention putting up “price” barriers to prevent capable but often poor foreign students from creating a model of great economy and wealth that the US has witnessed in the past 25 years. Such prehistoric policies of “segregation” of educational opportunities are retrogression at its best. But then the so-called “old wealth” running Britain is perhaps rightly skeptical, not to mention, petrified of the creativity and entrepreneurial skills of the

young generation belonging to a global community; one without the nationalistic frontiers.

Why Britain is in the backwaters has much to do with the educational

system, which reinforces the educational apartheid within UK social standing

order. Having been a veteran of the British educational system and the US graduate education system now, I can safely vouch that the US system with its wealth of resources and better opportunities for creative individuals is light years ahead of the traditional, British educational system. Though I sincerely, wish the commercialism/hype associated with the US system could be toned down.



Oxford’s finally recognizing the need for financial compensation to some of the best minds, to labour on their behalf and excel in academic pursuits, represents a major milestone in UK university policymaking. I strongly suspect that the patronizing tone used by the author to disparage the educational scholarships provided by US to deserving foreign students, is nothing more than his paranoia, of a similar system being introduced in his country, whereby the elitist advantage might be seriously mitigated by the inclusion of educational opportunities to the brightest and poorest students within UK. It is still a very small step, though one in the right direction.



Asim Hayat

Stanford University, California

Prem

Are you sure you are imagining about ``calculus`` and not curves..., shapes..., gradients... etc. Your remark on calculus in a very poetic language was unusual read :-).

Ali1 #22 ``Dosent make a difference if an Islamic rat turns into a Hindutva rat.``

Agreed, we have Islamic rats like we have Hindutva rats. Hobbyty is not one though - one may disagree with his views, but he does not disguise himself as a hindu poster and misrepresent the teachings of hinduism, as this man did.

urstruly #24 My quota for exchanging posts with you is over for this year. Sorry.