The Aga Khani

Ref DRUMZ #: 149

[Harimau: Im not sure if that passes for decent dialogue among your ilk (those who spend mindlessly long hours defending the countries they happen to be from), but if that was directed towards me, i wont even bother. Come on, I would absolutely destroy ur #147 and #146.]

If you notice my pattern of posts over the last month, it has been HIGHLY sporadic. I do have a life unlike those who seem to have nothing better to do than to respond to EVERY interactor on Chowk.

There has been NOT ONE WORD OF CONDEMNATION for Godhra from any person. When I point that out, I am told that we Hindus must be held to a higher standard. Farzana Versey writes about the Ahmedabad riots and points out the ``complicity of the state machinery`` in killing Muslims. Did she have ANYTHING to say about the targeting of the Hindus on the train? As I keep pointing out, nobody knows what happened to that daughter of the Muslim samosa vendor at Godhra who was purported to have been kidnapped by the Hindu pilgrims and which caused a ``spontaneous`` riot by the Muslims of Godhra who were able to outrun an express train leaving the station; according to all reports, the mob set fire to carriage S-6 which was where the girl was supposedly held. I suppose this is the Muslim way of rescueing a girl; I didn`t know Muslims followed the Rajput tradition of death by fire for women before dishonor.

Try arguing with facts/logical deductions if you want to destroy my posts.

[Please apologise.]

For what? For not following the lemmings over the cliff?

harimau # 146

``but I didn`t bookmark the specific article and I cannot locate that now.``

Thank you.No more questions.

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subroto;

[God its so tough being a majority - nobody pampers you anymore, nobody comes seeking your vote, everybody leaves you alone heck even the police take your side.]

-Yeah especially when majority is being appealed to by paranoid delusionists who try to convince them that their very existence is in danger despite being the oldest extant religion in the world and forming 90% population of the country and survived hundreds of years of outside rule only now are they in threat of dissapearance, apparently, and blaming their ethnic and cultural brothers and sisters for the crimes of some central Asian marauders of six hundred years ago.

In this new dispensation the statute of limitations has been increased to include every crime, insult and despoilation commited once upon a time in history and the guilty are all those who read from right to left.

(reading right to left is a crime that should be punishable by rape and death, I reckon)

-h-

hobbyty:

[A prosperous India is one in which religious bigotry of the caste system can be defeated - An India that struggles with poverty is a threat to it`s own citizens ]

- oh wow thanks genius we didnt know that have you won the Nobel prize yet? I think we have the new Amartya Sen here wow amazing

An update:

I met a lady who is an important part of the Aga Khan Foundation yesterday. She has been to Gujarat, and she was showing me all the plans they had for development projects there prior to the carnage. She seemed sad because, as she put it, “We have done so much work in the villages there irrespective of which community resided in those places. And now to think that Muslims have been killed in those very areas selectively. I really wonder now about all this work …”. Of course, she was back to her optimistic self, but the question remained: “Why? We don’t get into political arguments.”

But why the silence? “Because people are afraid. They could get targeted. And you too remember, it is okay to be outspoken, but these days you will have to use your wisdom to be able to stay here. There are so many members of the community who have left.”

And my mind went back to the number of times I have been told on these boards to get out of India. Life today is only carrying out what has been ingrained in the mindset a long time ago.

Ansari (87), MT (94), freesoul (113), usnehal (121):

[It`s not such an open community, at least in Pakistan. Despite several requests, Ismaili friends in Karachi decline when asked for an invitation to their jamaatkhana.]

This is indeed true; outsiders are not permitted into the jamaat khaana. I think they can go up to the main entrance hall, but not the prayer section. One reason could be that they would not want the Aga Khan to be debased in any manner, and since others do not see him as a spiritual head, there may be some concern about that.

[Why is it that Agakhanis have not struck roots in other parts of India , and what I mean is local conversions to Agakhani faith.]

They do not actively encourage conversions. No Aga Khani will ever tell you, “Why don’t you join our fold?”

[Agha khanis r very introvert ppl. No azaan on loudspeakers, no imam on TV, etc. They keep very low profile. Nobody knows what goes inside jamaat khana.]

Rather than introvert, they prefer to use their religious affiliations for social good. (There are many individuals from other streams of Islam who do that as well, but I am not sure this is what is specifically ‘preached’ in their places of worship.) I agree some customs seem strange, but I now tend to look at it more holistically. A couple of others… every Friday there is an auction of food, cooked by any member and ‘donated’ to the mosque. The idea is that those who are not so well off can buy it – no freebies here – and yet have something for themselves. Often relatives of someone who has died will give their jewellery and the same procedure is followed, which might help someone, who can ill-afford it, to add to her trousseau.

If you make a mannat, instead of offering expensive flowers, you help in cleaning the jamaat khaana, though the regulars do it anyway of their own accord.

[What Ms. Versey points out as the faults of the Aga Khani community are found in all muslim sects, certainly in sunni muslims of Pakistan…My point being, if we use the actions of a community to judge its merit, sunni muslims in their current state would be big losers.]

I cannot dwell on the Sunni Muslims in Pakistan, but I don’t think I have found many faults with the Aga Khani community; I just mentioned the customs in a lighter vein. And yes, I do feel they should become a bit more active in the larger community issues.

Belated acknowledgements due to pmishra2, soysauce, satyawadi, and sarwar -- for some enlightening information.

Regards,

Farzana

harimou:

“On a DAILY basis, there are Shias being killed in Pakistan and there is NOT A PEEP from these a$$holes. Do you think if in Gujarat they had targeted only Shias, India would have been above blame?”

….the targeting of shias that’s happening right now is NOT government sponsored/sanctioned ….it’s being carried out by royally screwed up pieces of s hit who want to create as much havoc for the gov’t/pakistan as possible…

Subroto/Harpreet: Head Nods. As i keep saying, desi`s are mostly cowards. In a group they`ll talk sh1t but if u catch em alone - quiet as a moose.

Harimau: Im not sure if that passes for decent dialogue among your ilk (those who spend mindlessly long hours defending the countries they happen to be from), but if that was directed towards me, i wont even bother. Come on, I would absolutely destroy ur #147 and #146.

Please apologise. Thanks in advance.

Ref hobbyty #: 142

[A prosperous India is one in which religious bigotry of the caste system can be defeated - An India that struggles with poverty is a threat to it`s own citizens and to it`s neighbors - A way must be found to defeat caste system and ensure that the violence witnessed in Gujrat will nver happen again anywhere in India - ever again - this will save India, it will save the Muslims of India and it will save the neighbors of India]

A prosperous Pakistan is one in which religious bigotry of Wahhabi/Sunni Islam can be defeated - A Pakistan that struggles with poverty is a threat to its own citizens and to its neighbors - A way must be found to defeat sectarianism and ensure that the violence witnessed in Karachi will never happen again anywhere in Pakistan - ever again - this will save Pakistan, it will save the Shias of Pakistan and it will save the neighbors of Pakistan.

Yaaaawn.

All those Pakistanis crying buckets over Muslim deaths in Gujarat:

This was child`s play compared to what happened in 1947 during Partition.

And just a prelude to what you can expect if you manage to wrest Kashmir away from India.

Don`t expect a velvet divorce a la the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

It didn`t happen when both parties were Muslims as in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

That is NOT a threat from a hindutva-vadi; just a grim reminder of how thin the fabric of civilization is in the subcontinent.

Ref Banjaara #: 141

[harimau # 125

``Everybody is crying buckets over the Muslim deaths in Gujarat but the newspapers report that there are 100,000 Muslims who are now refugees AND 40,000 Hindus.``

Which newspaper has reported 40000 Hindu refugees.]

All right, I should have expected SOMEBODY to question me in these days when the politically correct thing for a Hindu to do is hang the head down in shame and beat one`s breast publicly for the Gujarat riots but I didn`t bookmark the specific article and I cannot locate that now. But, here is something that at least reports that there are BOTH Muslim and Hindu refugees totalling 117,000 in camps.

Read the article for the sentence, ``In Ahmedabad alone, more than 117,000 Muslims and Hindus live in such camps. An additional 30,000 live in curfew zones, unable to leave their homes to work and make money to buy food; it is these people, aid workers say, who are at most danger of starvation.`` and for ``Two days earlier, there was a stone-throwing incident and the grisly murder of a Hindu motorcyclist by a Muslim mob.``

This is the URL:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0502/p01s03-wosc.html

This is the report:

Amid riots, some cross a religious divide

By Scott Baldauf | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

AHMEDABAD, INDIA – On her first visit to a Muslim slum after the riots began, Devuben recalls how a little Muslim girl ran screaming from her because of the traditional bindi Devuben puts on her forehead as a married Hindu woman.

Since that time, the volunteer aid-worker leaves her bindis at home. Now, the Muslim girl has slowly started coming to Devuben to sit in her lap and read stories in the classes, and join activities that she and other aid workers are organizing.

``I realized then: My God, we have reached a point today that anyone wearing a bindi is a Hindu and could do the sort of violent things that these people have seen,`` says Devuben. ``But the more that we go into these camps, there comes the understanding among the poor that we are all the victims of this, whether we are poor Hindus or poor Muslims, and it is up to us to put a stop to this.``

In a state ravaged by Hindu-Muslim riots over the past two months, the stories of Hindu and Muslim volunteers crossing communal lines to help those of different faiths are a rare glimmer of hope. Not surprisingly, these quiet amanpathiks, or peacemakers, get less attention than the rioters and hatemongers who loot shops, burn homes, and kill men and women of the opposite faith.

Some may snicker at the small numbers of active peacemakers. But like the rioters themselves, they know that it doesn`t take an army to have a profound impact on society, though perhaps slowly.

``Already the ethnic cleansing has taken place. It`s going to take a long time to change the ethnic cleansing in people`s minds, to undo the power of prejudice,`` says Victor Moses, a Jesuit priest and director of St. Xavier`s Social Service Society in Ahmedabad. Together with 32 other aid groups, St. Xavier`s helps sponsor and train the volunteers.

The numbers of those affected are sobering. Since the Feb. 27 attack by Muslims on a train crowded with Hindus, more than 900 people – most of them Muslims – have been killed statewide in communal violence. The true death toll could be more than twice that figure, however, since many people remain missing.

Survivors of these attacks have largely fled to makeshift camps or ghettos surrounded by people of their own faith. In Ahmedabad alone, more than 117,000 Muslims and Hindus live in such camps. An additional 30,000 live in curfew zones, unable to leave their homes to work and make money to buy food; it is these people, aid workers say, who are at most danger of starvation.

The dislocation may be even greater in rural areas, where the communal violence has been more brutal, often instigated by visiting speakers from religious groups such as the violently pro-Hindu Bajrang Dal youth group or the powerful Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP). Opposition parties have repeatedly called on the government to ban these groups. Yesterday, debate in Parliament ran late into the night over an call to censure the government`s handling of the riots, but the move was ultimately defeated.

In Ahmedabad, most camps are self-run, with Muslim community elders organizing the food and shelter for displaced Muslims, and Hindu elders organizing Hindu camps. But aid groups – from the Red Cross to the Hindu charity group, the Ram Krishna Mission, to the more secular amanpathiks – also play a crucial role in making sure that camp residents get the help they need, such as legal advice, medical help, and emotional counseling for children and adults alike.

In Shah Alam camp, where more than 10,000 Muslims live on the dusty grounds of a 200-year-old mosque and shrine complex, young Muslim volunteers from the community visit each of the families to advise them of their rights and to urge them to remain peaceful. Amanpathik organizers – many of them Hindus themselves – plan to bring Hindu volunteers to this camp as well.

In the mosque`s graveyard, amid the green and white painted tombs, amanpathiks are busy setting up outdoor classrooms for some 450 children, where they will be taught mathematics, and Urdu and Gujarati languages. Under the shade of a larger Mughal-style tomb, women learn hand embroidery.

``It is better that these people should listen to our words of humanity than to listen to the religious fundamentalists,`` says Mansuri Yusuf, an energetic volunteer who helps arrange legal aid for people who have lost family members or property during the riots. ``It is very difficult to talk of peace in times like this, but we are trying.``

Meherunnisha Shaikh, another amanpathik volunteer, remembers the time she told a refugee family that Muslims should all remain peaceful, and the family elder responded, ``We did stay peaceful, and that is why we were beaten up.`` Miss Shaikh let the elder have his say that day, but since that time, some of the family members have come to her to learn more about the peacemaker program.

Across town, in the mixed slum called Guptanagar, amanpathik organizer Rajendra Joshi takes a visitor on a walk through a series of narrow dirt and stone alleys. One side of the narrow road is the Muslim community, with charred brick shops and broken corrugated tin doors. The other side is totally Hindu, where the shops are untouched, but have been shuttered for nearly two months because of riots.

``The road we are walking on is considered `the border,` `` says Mr. Joshi, who has organized development programs in these slums for nearly a decade. ``Ultimately, it is the common people who suffer, and it is the common people who know they have to solve this.``

At the small amanpathik center here, nearly 20 Hindu volunteers gather to train, and to discuss their next activity. On this day, they are unable to visit the all-Muslim camp at Juhapura district, because of a curfew. Two days earlier, there was a stone-throwing incident and the grisly murder of a Hindu motorcyclist by a Muslim mob.

``The first time I went to Juhapura camp, I went with a group of 10 amanpathiks, all of us Hindus,`` says Devikaben, a sprightly middle-aged housewife in a bright pink sari. ``This Muslim couple saw us coming down the alley, and they turned around and ran away. We stopped them and explained that we were peacemakers, and they said, `This is the need of the hour.` ``

Re DRUMZ # 139 ``Despite Pakistan`s power hungry referrendum, the biggest JOKE and by far the most PATHETIC country in S. ASIA (rite now) is India. ``

So true, so true, who cares about the sham voting in Pakistan when our own house is burning. Just been reading the Human Rights Watch report about the violence in Gujarat....don`t know where we are heading friend...don`t even know if these wounds can heal..so much hatred, how do you expect it to just go away...Hocus Pocus --Poof - there we are back to normal, nothing happened no one died and my magic spell worked..

The fricking secular poetry loving Prime Minister of the country has the audacity to make the speech ``we have seen where ever they are....Muslims create trouble`` or words to that effect and he chooses to say this after the worst outbreak of communal violence in the country in which Muslims were the victims - oh I am sorry I should have mentioned ``they started it nee nee nee ni``. Who cares who started it, it should have been nipped in the bud, it could have been nipped in the bud (never underestimate the speed at which a mob runs away when directly fired upon aka shoot to kill). Or maybe I am wrong after all what the fukk do I know about sentiments of the majority - hurt sentiments of the majority. God its so tough being a majority - nobody pampers you anymore, nobody comes seeking your vote, everybody leaves you alone heck even the police take your side.

I am just one disillusioned Roach right now...