The Aga Khani

PMishra, Tvarad, Zafar, etc.

There is no easy solution to the Gujarat riots. Even now, there are riots in Baroda and killing of innocent bystanders in addition to deaths by police firings. A determined mob will find a way to assemble, commit murder and arson, and disperse before the police can reach the area; after all, we are talking about cities which are full of alleys and narrow streets through which it is not possible to travel fast.

So, all one can say is ``Sh!t Happens`` and try to figure out how to get on with life. In the meanwhile, try to provide relief to those affected by sending in money, which at least those living outside India should have some ability to part with because they have a larger disposable income.

If anybody thinks that I am callous about this because I am personally unaffected, you can`t be more wrong: my brother-in-law is out Rs 6 million in business in two months because the Gujarat textile mills are shut down and he is a supplier to them.

As I said, sh!t happens.

Ref Akash #: 178

[Banjaara

Here is the article which says that 40,000 Hindus have also turned homeless alongwith 100,000 Muslims in Gujrat.]

Thanks. Akash. I knew I didn`t make it up but I just didn`t have the time to go through various archives to locate the particular reference.

Must be losing my memory.

Ref wholly-precious-you #: 150

[harimou:

“On a DAILY basis, there are Shias being killed in Pakistan and there is NOT A PEEP from these a$$holes. Do you think if in Gujarat they had targeted only Shias, India would have been above blame?”

….the targeting of shias that’s happening right now is NOT government sponsored/sanctioned ….it’s being carried out by royally screwed up pieces of s hit who want to create as much havoc for the gov’t/pakistan as possible…]

I hate to disillusion you but the fact is, anytime there is a killing of a minority group, it is sponsored/sanctioned by the authorities.

Do you think that the lynchings of the blacks in southern United States was not tacitly supported by the racist state governments? How many KKK members were ever arrested and prosecuted for those lynchings? After all, even as late as 1965, civil rights activists were murdered in the South without any fear of arrest.

Going back to earlier times, wasn`t the massacre of Native Americans and their sequestration in reservations state sponsored?

How about the treatment of the Irish and the Scots by England?

Palestinians by Israel?

Chechnyans by the Russians?

Tibetans by the Chinese?

Muslims by Hindus?

And finally, by the same logic, Shias by Sunnis?

When the Shia killers are apprehended, tried, convicted and punished -- every last one of them -- and the killings stop, then you can say there is no complicity by the state apparatus in the killings of Shias in Pakistan.

Stuka;

[He said that even after the end of militancy, the ones who are most bitter about India are Jatts, and the ones who are most bitter about Khalistan movement are also Jatts.]

- Isnt that the truth. They should have just called it ``Jattistan`` not Khalistan. Thats why they liked kissing the hairy backsides of the Jatts in the ISI so much too.

-h-

re: tvarad # 199

Geez! Here we have some logic.

You made a sweeping statement about Hindus (they have bridged...etc...to modernity) and Muslims (who have not bridged....to modernity).

Zafar very correctly pointed out that what hundreds of thousands of Hindus are doing these days is more creating a bridge to paleolithic era than to modernity.

I hope you will agree with that. Forget about Muslims for a moment, that statement is DEFINITELY true about many Hindus.

Then you come back with a rather silly question: ``who killed most Muslims?``

Who knows? There are plenty of Muslims we Hindus killed during the time of Partition. Later on, Pakistani army got into the act.

But Pakistani army was NOT killing Muslims. It was killing BENGALIS. Please read up on what Pakistani military men thought of Bengalis. Bengalis were not ``Muslim enough`` for them, adha Hindu, just the way zafar has himself had to endure this gibberish.

Even with all that, your sweeping assertion does not become valid one bit. Zafar`s statement stands validated by REALITY.

If you did not seek to make wholesale, sweeping statements about everybody in either religions, you ought to clarify. Man, there is NO harm/shame in acknowledging a mistake.

Reply InYourFace # 200

Mian

We KNOW how criminals of whatever religion twist and pervert religious texts to justify horrific acts – Godhra, post-Godhra, WTC…

What is hard to understand is the level of ongoing support and “understanding” that these people continue to receive from otherwise normal Hindus and Muslims.

What is hard to understand is the fact that there are still some Muslims who believe that the WTC disaster was the work of “The Jews” – and that these are, as far as you can tell from their daily lives, peaceful, law abiding people. There still may be (I have not heard this opinion beyond the first few days after the atrocity) some Muslims who feel that the VHP/Bajrang Dal were behind the Godhra atrocity. I do not understand what’s happening in their heads – and because I think that they are essentially normal people (don’t run around killing anybody) this bothers me tremendously.

What stuns me is that there are still some Hindus who try and explain away ALL EVIDENCE of Government/VHP complicity in anti-Muslim violence in Gujarat, and stick to the line that it was a “natural reaction” to Godhra by the majority community. They may well throw in a line on how they do not condone the violence, but the explanations they offer do EXACTLY THAT. What is going on in their heads?

Do you see my point? I am not talking about the atrocities and the people who committed them – I am talking about a broader attitude among some people towards these atrocities and those who commited them. “Soft” fascism – dangerous because so easily ignored in one’s self and in others.

Re: Godhra.

“…was there a general outcry by ALL the muslims about Godhra?”

Dude, that`s my point. Re: Godhra, I think the vast majority of Muslims DID condemn it, and made their views known, but re: WTC, I think there is still a segment which thinks Muslims didn`t do it...

“How can you assure me that there is introspection among muslims regarding Godhra?”

Have you been around chowk? Have you read any of the discussions on Godhra? Have any posts by Muslims even suggested that they were not appalled by that? What makes you think there hasn’t been any?

Re: WTC – ditto. Were you around chowk at that time? Have you read any articles published by Muslims at that time? Please give me some referenced examples of articles by Indian Muslims from that time which were not self-reflective and wondering where we had gone wrong that such things could be done in Islam’s name.

“Last I heard is some Indian muslims were threatening to break [India?] into pieces (Imam Bukhari?)”

Arre vaah! And your point is? Some inuendo about Indian Muslims? Some statement about Bukhari? Some statement about India? Any particular way you would like me to react to that (unsubstantiated) claim you made? Should I just shut up? No, sorry, I won’t.

“Come to think of it, majority of hindus (outside of Gujurat) and ALL the muslims on this planet are talking about Gujurat and it seems like ALL the muslims pretend like Godhra never happened.”

It must be very hard for some people when their simplistic claims of all Indian Muslims always being violent against unceasingly peaceful and non-violent Indian Hindus have been so bloodily exposed as rubbish by members of their own team. (Hindutvawadis, NOT Hindus.)

But there is no stopping some people from continuing to try. Have you seen the May 6 India Today? There is a two page ad’ in it (pages 32-33) called “Gujarat: Facts and Reality”. (Interestingly, the ad’ is not marked as an ad’, though there is a border etc. around it to differentiate it from the rest of the magazine. Wonder why?) The ad’ mentions the 58 deaths in the Godhra tragedy, 168 deaths caused by police firing, and then goes on to make the point that business in Gujarat is back to normal, FIRs etc. are far lower than had been thought, etc. The ad’ does not ONCE mention the many other deaths in Gujarat, which continue to occur to this day. Going by the ad’ (which is purporting to give you the “reality” about Gujarat, mind you) you would have no idea that mobs of Hindutvawadis had killed at least 800 (these are the Govt’s figures, NGOs place the number at closer to 2000) Muslims in Gujarat since the Godhra tragedy.

(Read more about this, and a presentation by the Centre, on http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/may/04dilip.htm)

Why do you think that is? If the Government did not have blood on its hands, why would it try to create a climate which covers up these crimes?

CAN you see the difference between a criminal act carried out by individuals, and criminal acts carried out with the complicity and participation of organs of Government? Can you see WHY people find the post-Godhra violence frightening because of the implications for the corruption of the Indian state and the future of Indian society – who we will become, what kind of country will we live in, what rights will individuals have – beyond the more immediate fear of physical violence or death?

Let me explain: ok, the police acted against Muslims in Gujarat this time. Does that mean that Hindus should feel no fear? Who will the police act against next time? Once the lakshman rekha of Government impartiality in maintaining law and order has been crossed, do we still have a Governance for ALL the people of India, or just a Governance for that group of people who happen to be in power (and hence above the law), and open-season on all the others?

The Law protects us all because it imposes limits on the strong. When that basic principle is overthrown, what is the Law but the Law of the Jungle? THAT is what horrifies people about the State Government’s actions in Gujarat – this doesn’t mean that the violent deaths of so many in Godhra is less tragic than the burning alive of 60 Muslims elsewhere in the State – only that those deaths did not say so much about what our Government, and our police force, have become in Gujarat, and potentially in other parts of India.

“There is no justification for Godhra or Gujurath.”

Indeed.

“Condemning Godhra is not condoning Gujurath.”

Condemn away. You are in good company. But why do you have to make this point? And more to the point, why do you feel the need to condemn Godhra when discussing Gujarat? Condemning Gujarat is not condoning Godhra, and I defy you to find a single published article where that connection is made.

“I hope we Indians will get over this mess and start talking about rain water harvesting or some such talk.”

The word which comes to mind is Agnipariksh, and yes, I hope so too. Actually….water harvesting is one of my favourite subjects.

Regards.

Reply tvarad # 199

“Which country in the sub-continent has killed the most Muslims since 1947?

Answer this question honestly and we`ll take it from there.”

To my knowledge the greatest number of Muslims killed in the subcontinent post 1947 happened in Bangladesh in 1971, courtesy Pakistani army.

What does that have to do with burning people alive in Gujarat? Is there ANY connection at all? I do look forward to your reply.

Regards

Zafar

PS Please note, I made no offensive inuendos about your habitual level of honesty. Was that really necessary on your part?

re: ylh

{FBI and I know each other very well... so be careful of what you say... ok.. just a friendly advice.}

...what about the CIA?...don`t you know them as well?...and your direct line to the pentagon?...i`m sure they`re all waiting for `his excellency the great ylh` to call them up to complain about people on internet message boards mocking him...this is some hilarious $hit...

Stuka # 196:

``..if he has political ambitions, it could do wonders for him...it already has for naidu, even though he has only been making peripheral threats to ABV...``

Wrong! The biggest loser in this mess is Naidu. Recently, I saw a cartoon in local (HYD) newspaper showing ABV sqeezing Naidus. Without BJP Naidu will lose ... at least in next general elections. My feeling ... Naidu will try to get Modi fired before next election and strike a deal with BJP. Only way he will become PM is if NDA wins but BJP is marginalized.

Zafar # 184:

I wish you said this instead:

``Of course it is easy (and pointless) to make supercilious comments about Muslims, but don’t you think it would also be worthwhile to find out how and why some criminals were able to burn innocents alive in the name of defending Hinduism? Unless you know how and why, you won’t be able to stop it in future. India deserves a greater effort on your part.``

As it reads now it leaves a lot of room for blame game, such as .... was there a general outcry by ALL the muslims about Godhra? How can you assure me that there is introspection among muslims regarding Godhra? Last I heard is some Indian muslims were threatening to break into pieces (Imam Bukhari?) Come to think of it, majority of hindus (outside of Gujurat) and ALL the muslims on this planet are talking about Gujurat and it seems like ALL the muslims pretend like Godhra never happened.

My 2 cents:

There is no justification for Godhra or Gujurath.

Condemning Godhra is not condoning Gujurath.

I hope we Indians will get over this mess and start talking about rain water harvesting or some such talk.

Zafar # 184:

I wish you said this instead:

``Of course it is easy (and pointless) to make supercilious comments about Muslims, but don’t you think it would also be worthwhile to find out how and why some criminals were able to burn innocents alive in the name of defending Hinduism? Unless you know how and why, you won’t be able to stop it in future. India deserves a greater effort on your part.``

As it reads now it leaves a lot of room for blame game, such as .... was there a general outcry by ALL the muslims about Godhra? How can you assure me that there is introspection among muslims regarding Godhra? Last I heard is some Indian muslims were threatening to break into pieces (Imam Bukhari?) Come to think of it, majority of hindus (outside of Gujurat) and ALL the muslims on this planet are talking about Gujurat and it seems like ALL the muslims pretend like Godhra never happened.

My 2 cents:

There is no justification for Godhra or Gujurath.

Condemning Godhra is not condoning Gujurath.

I hope we Indians will get over this mess and start talking about rain water harvesting or some such talk

RE: Reply #: 184 Zafar Al-Talib

``Burning people alive is hardly proof of having successfully bridged any gap except that between humans and animals.``

Zafar,

Here is a simple question:

Which country in the sub-continent has killed the most Muslims since 1947?

Answer this question honestly and we`ll take it from there.

YLH so u are the one who provides junoon with their regular dosage of PCP when they are in the US

Ali2/Rsaxena...

FBI and I know each other very well... so be careful of what you say... ok.. just a friendly advice.

-YLH

RSaxena:

.``..i doubt gill is the type of man who will play along with the govt...he will make a genuine attempt, even if he ultimately fails.``

Yes, I would tend

..if he has political ambitions, it could do wonders for him...it already has for naidu, even though he has only been making peripheral threats to ABV...(i would be glad to see naidu make PM one day...would be the smartest one we`ve had in a long time...)

Yup, Naidu would be the best bet for PM...PRAGMATIC and pro free economy..

AnNy:

Very cool. Altaf Hussain`s grand daughter is one of my best friends. I`ll print your post out and show it to her.