The Aga Khani
Farzana Versey April 26, 2002
#178 Posted by Akash on May 5, 2002 8:49:44 pm
Banjaara
Here is the article which says that 40,000 Hindus have also turned homeless alongwith 100,000 Muslims in Gujrat. All VHP members in the state should be hanged.
Riots in Gujarat were planned: UK mission
www.hindustantimes.com/no...tfro03.asp
Saurabh Shukla
(New Delhi, April 14)
The British High Commission in the Capital has reported to the British Foreign Office in London that the continuing violence in Gujarat is aimed at removing Muslim influence from parts of the state.
Significantly, the report, prepared by three British diplomats who recently toured the affected areas, placed the death toll at around 2,000. The figure — arrived at from information shared by civil rights groups, victim families and state police officials — is more than double the official death toll of 850.
In terms of India`s international image, the report does the most damage by stating that the post-Godhra violence in Gujarat was pre-planned. If the Sabarmati Express tragedy hadn`t happened, another flashpoint would have been created to justify pre-meditated violence as reaction, the report says. And all this, according to the report, will affect foreign investment in India.
The number of people rendered homeless has been reported as 1,40,000 (1,00,000 Muslims and 40,000 Hindus). Conditions in relief camps, the report says, are miserable.
Extremely critical of the Sangh Parivar`s role, the report identifies the VHP and Bajrang Dal as the main instruments for realising the ghettoisation of the Muslims.
The High Commission`s team to Gujarat was led by Peter Holland, First Secretary in the Mission`s Political Section. They were assigned the fact-finding task after a British national of Indian origin was burned to death, and two of his family went missing.
The report was sent to the British Foreign Office in London on Friday.
Though there is no official word on the report from the UK mission, sources said that it endorsed broadly the media reports on the carnage while noting that the state bureaucracy was now busy covering up its acts of omission.
The team also observed that in some areas, the police had been specifically instructed not to act, while in some others, the force was communally polarised and looked the other way without any prompting by political bosses.
The report also questions the discrimination between the amount paid as compensation to victims/ next of kin of the Godhra tragedy and the subsequent riots.[/b]
It also says that minority establishments and property were specially targeted by the rioting mobs in most places.
Here is the article which says that 40,000 Hindus have also turned homeless alongwith 100,000 Muslims in Gujrat. All VHP members in the state should be hanged.
Riots in Gujarat were planned: UK mission
www.hindustantimes.com/no...tfro03.asp
Saurabh Shukla
(New Delhi, April 14)
The British High Commission in the Capital has reported to the British Foreign Office in London that the continuing violence in Gujarat is aimed at removing Muslim influence from parts of the state.
Significantly, the report, prepared by three British diplomats who recently toured the affected areas, placed the death toll at around 2,000. The figure — arrived at from information shared by civil rights groups, victim families and state police officials — is more than double the official death toll of 850.
In terms of India`s international image, the report does the most damage by stating that the post-Godhra violence in Gujarat was pre-planned. If the Sabarmati Express tragedy hadn`t happened, another flashpoint would have been created to justify pre-meditated violence as reaction, the report says. And all this, according to the report, will affect foreign investment in India.
The number of people rendered homeless has been reported as 1,40,000 (1,00,000 Muslims and 40,000 Hindus). Conditions in relief camps, the report says, are miserable.
Extremely critical of the Sangh Parivar`s role, the report identifies the VHP and Bajrang Dal as the main instruments for realising the ghettoisation of the Muslims.
The High Commission`s team to Gujarat was led by Peter Holland, First Secretary in the Mission`s Political Section. They were assigned the fact-finding task after a British national of Indian origin was burned to death, and two of his family went missing.
The report was sent to the British Foreign Office in London on Friday.
Though there is no official word on the report from the UK mission, sources said that it endorsed broadly the media reports on the carnage while noting that the state bureaucracy was now busy covering up its acts of omission.
The team also observed that in some areas, the police had been specifically instructed not to act, while in some others, the force was communally polarised and looked the other way without any prompting by political bosses.
The report also questions the discrimination between the amount paid as compensation to victims/ next of kin of the Godhra tragedy and the subsequent riots.[/b]
It also says that minority establishments and property were specially targeted by the rioting mobs in most places.
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#177 Posted by pmishra2 on May 5, 2002 8:49:44 pm
harimau #160
I am puzzled by your repeated insistence that no one cares about Godhra, and in particular, indian muslim or islamic organizations have not come forward to condemn it.
Here are just a few of the condemnations:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2002/03/01/stories/2002030103211300.htm
NEW DELHI, FEB. 28. In a remarkable act of civic responsibility and political maturity, ranking Muslim leaders have condemned the ``barbaric and brutal violence at Godhra.`` This public condemnation comes in the wake of the obvious inference that the members of the minority community are the most probable culprits in violence at Godhra.
``We condemn the culprits of the criminal act, whosoever they be, without any reservation, whatever the Provocation,`` said the Muslim leaders. Those who have signed the statement include Syed Shahabuddin (president, All India Muslim Majilis-e-Mushawarat), Maulana Asad Madani (president, Jamait-ul- Ulema-e-Hind), Qazi Mujahidul Islam Qasmi (secretary-general, All India Milli Council), Maulana H.R. Nomani, (president, All India Momin Conference).
If you search on yahoo, you can literally find hundreds of condemnations from all types of
organizations.
Please don`t be fooled by the VHP and their propaganda. You should be aware that the VHP is now making concentrated effort to ``market`` the poor, innocents killed in Godhra to mobilize further hatred.
Gujarat is burning today: the only forces gaining thru all this are the most fascistic and retrograde ones.
I am puzzled by your repeated insistence that no one cares about Godhra, and in particular, indian muslim or islamic organizations have not come forward to condemn it.
Here are just a few of the condemnations:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2002/03/01/stories/2002030103211300.htm
NEW DELHI, FEB. 28. In a remarkable act of civic responsibility and political maturity, ranking Muslim leaders have condemned the ``barbaric and brutal violence at Godhra.`` This public condemnation comes in the wake of the obvious inference that the members of the minority community are the most probable culprits in violence at Godhra.
``We condemn the culprits of the criminal act, whosoever they be, without any reservation, whatever the Provocation,`` said the Muslim leaders. Those who have signed the statement include Syed Shahabuddin (president, All India Muslim Majilis-e-Mushawarat), Maulana Asad Madani (president, Jamait-ul- Ulema-e-Hind), Qazi Mujahidul Islam Qasmi (secretary-general, All India Milli Council), Maulana H.R. Nomani, (president, All India Momin Conference).
If you search on yahoo, you can literally find hundreds of condemnations from all types of
organizations.
Please don`t be fooled by the VHP and their propaganda. You should be aware that the VHP is now making concentrated effort to ``market`` the poor, innocents killed in Godhra to mobilize further hatred.
Gujarat is burning today: the only forces gaining thru all this are the most fascistic and retrograde ones.
#176 Posted by tvarad on May 5, 2002 2:07:29 pm
RE: Reply #: 160 harimau
``There has been NOT ONE WORD OF CONDEMNATION for Godhra from any person. When I point that out, I am told that we Hindus must be held to a higher standard. Farzana Versey writes about the Ahmedabad riots and points out the ``complicity of the state machinery`` in killing Muslims. Did she have ANYTHING to say about the targeting of the Hindus on the train?``
Harimau,
As you can see from her current article, Farzana is quite a confused person. She has a third world mind but spouts first world morals. So her views tend to be full of contradictions (as are those from people like ylh), so why are you even taking them seriously?
Horrible as the Godhra incident was, was it worth it to set fire to one of the most industrialized states in India in retaliation? Was it worth the millions of dollars in damage and the loss of goodwill which will take years to rebuild? When rule of law has proved to be the only conclusive method to achieve both progress and emancipation, why did we so cavalierly throw it to the wind to teach ``Muslims`` a lesson? It`s like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
The real question for us Hindus is this: we have successfully bridged the gap between the ancient and the modern through so many thinkers from Raja Ram Mohan Roy to Mahatma Gandhi. Muslims are yet to reconcile themselves with the modern age. Show me ONE Muslim thinker who tried to lead his people into the 21st century who has not been sidelined. Given this situation, why are we Hindus struggling so hard to prove that we are more retrogressive than the Muslims as exemplified by their leadership?
``There has been NOT ONE WORD OF CONDEMNATION for Godhra from any person. When I point that out, I am told that we Hindus must be held to a higher standard. Farzana Versey writes about the Ahmedabad riots and points out the ``complicity of the state machinery`` in killing Muslims. Did she have ANYTHING to say about the targeting of the Hindus on the train?``
Harimau,
As you can see from her current article, Farzana is quite a confused person. She has a third world mind but spouts first world morals. So her views tend to be full of contradictions (as are those from people like ylh), so why are you even taking them seriously?
Horrible as the Godhra incident was, was it worth it to set fire to one of the most industrialized states in India in retaliation? Was it worth the millions of dollars in damage and the loss of goodwill which will take years to rebuild? When rule of law has proved to be the only conclusive method to achieve both progress and emancipation, why did we so cavalierly throw it to the wind to teach ``Muslims`` a lesson? It`s like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
The real question for us Hindus is this: we have successfully bridged the gap between the ancient and the modern through so many thinkers from Raja Ram Mohan Roy to Mahatma Gandhi. Muslims are yet to reconcile themselves with the modern age. Show me ONE Muslim thinker who tried to lead his people into the 21st century who has not been sidelined. Given this situation, why are we Hindus struggling so hard to prove that we are more retrogressive than the Muslims as exemplified by their leadership?
#175 Posted by AAmir on May 5, 2002 2:07:29 pm
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#172 Posted by semipreciousme on May 5, 2002 2:07:29 pm
Ralph:
“How many Shia professionals, worshippers have been killed in Karachi alone?”
…too many…
“How many killers has Pakistani government caught?”
…barring the odd token arrest here and there and placing the leaders of known anti-shia/sunni groups in jail, none…the gov’t seems to be helpless in catching the culprits who actually commit the crime…
“Is there a relationship between shia killers Pakistani police and government? Is there a relationship between rabid shia haters, Jaish Mohammad, and Pakistani agencies?”
….most of these groups, as you prob. know, were once the darling protégés of the isi with the full blessings of the gov’ts back then….now that actions are being taken against them, they’re biting the hands that once fed them…
“How many Shia professionals, worshippers have been killed in Karachi alone?”
…too many…
“How many killers has Pakistani government caught?”
…barring the odd token arrest here and there and placing the leaders of known anti-shia/sunni groups in jail, none…the gov’t seems to be helpless in catching the culprits who actually commit the crime…
“Is there a relationship between shia killers Pakistani police and government? Is there a relationship between rabid shia haters, Jaish Mohammad, and Pakistani agencies?”
….most of these groups, as you prob. know, were once the darling protégés of the isi with the full blessings of the gov’ts back then….now that actions are being taken against them, they’re biting the hands that once fed them…
#171 Posted by Prem on May 5, 2002 2:07:29 pm
Zafar, Harimau
M J Akbar has a good article in today`s opinion section of the Dawn. He strikes a note at once cynical and optimistic. Most importantly, he exposes the absurdity of Narendra Modi trying to bring `peace` to Gujarat. Overall, some complex and sharp observations.
M J Akbar has a good article in today`s opinion section of the Dawn. He strikes a note at once cynical and optimistic. Most importantly, he exposes the absurdity of Narendra Modi trying to bring `peace` to Gujarat. Overall, some complex and sharp observations.
#170 Posted by Prem on May 5, 2002 2:07:29 pm
re: Zafar Al-Talib # 168
Bilkul sahi. Loss of life, violence, rape and plunder are all abominable things, but truly THE most shameful (and worrying) aspect is the breakdown of the state machinary...
I shudder to think that people complicit in mass muder continue to occupy positions of power....the very thought sickens me.
Bilkul sahi. Loss of life, violence, rape and plunder are all abominable things, but truly THE most shameful (and worrying) aspect is the breakdown of the state machinary...
I shudder to think that people complicit in mass muder continue to occupy positions of power....the very thought sickens me.
#169 Posted by ZafarA on May 5, 2002 1:17:46 am
Reply Harimau # 160
“There has been NOT ONE WORD OF CONDEMNATION for Godhra from any person.”
Harimau,
That’s simply not true. Can you find a SINGLE series of posts on chowk by an Indian where Godhra is mentioned without condemning it? Can you point out a SINGLE editorial or piece of analysis of the violence in Gujarat where Godhra is mentioned without it being condemned?
And if you manage to find ONE, how many have been written which DO condemn it?
You seem to be trying to establish an equivalence between the actions of criminals acting without Government complicity and criminals acting with Government complicity. Their personal crimes ARE morally equivalent, but in terms of India’s polity and stability they are vastly different. That is why Godhra appals and sickens me, but the mob violence in Gujarat after that not only appals and sickens me, but fills me with fear for India’s future.
NOT because Muslim lives are more precious than Hindu lives, but because if the police start to behave as the extension of caste or communal armies, what is to stop us from becoming a South Asian version of Lebanon on the eve of its civil war?
Zafar
“There has been NOT ONE WORD OF CONDEMNATION for Godhra from any person.”
Harimau,
That’s simply not true. Can you find a SINGLE series of posts on chowk by an Indian where Godhra is mentioned without condemning it? Can you point out a SINGLE editorial or piece of analysis of the violence in Gujarat where Godhra is mentioned without it being condemned?
And if you manage to find ONE, how many have been written which DO condemn it?
You seem to be trying to establish an equivalence between the actions of criminals acting without Government complicity and criminals acting with Government complicity. Their personal crimes ARE morally equivalent, but in terms of India’s polity and stability they are vastly different. That is why Godhra appals and sickens me, but the mob violence in Gujarat after that not only appals and sickens me, but fills me with fear for India’s future.
NOT because Muslim lives are more precious than Hindu lives, but because if the police start to behave as the extension of caste or communal armies, what is to stop us from becoming a South Asian version of Lebanon on the eve of its civil war?
Zafar
#168 Posted by sadna on May 5, 2002 12:28:31 am
Stuka #162
``As usual it takes a Sikh to sort out the Hindus and the Muslims.``
You are very right (and think of Julio Riberio, too), but sorry, I cannot help it..:)
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/
``As usual it takes a Sikh to sort out the Hindus and the Muslims.``
You are very right (and think of Julio Riberio, too), but sorry, I cannot help it..:)
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/
#167 Posted by rsaxena on May 4, 2002 11:55:57 pm
re: AAmir/12-head
...btw, why is lajwanti ticked off at deepika?...
...ps, haven`t heard from bijli and brad cruise in a while...please say hello them...
...btw, why is lajwanti ticked off at deepika?...
...ps, haven`t heard from bijli and brad cruise in a while...please say hello them...
#166 Posted by ylh on May 4, 2002 11:55:57 pm
farzana,
Looking back at my last post, I think it can be construed as a disrespectful one because of the cold tenor ...
I just want to clarify that it was not my intention for it to come out like that.. I have the greatest respect for the Prophet`s family and the shia beliefs.
#165 Posted by ylh on May 4, 2002 11:55:57 pm
Farzana
Thanks for the post...
Between the Junoon concert (and let me tell you Junoon are the coolest people.. infact Salman Ahmed the guitarist knew me by reputation.. when I told him who I was, he goes `ah so you are yasser hamdani aka greywolf`.. just wanted to boast) and Urbayeen Chelum which i attended at the behest of a shia friend etc... I really didn`t get much sleep so I couldn`t answer you before...
You mention spontaneous tears when you went to Hazrat Abbass`s alam or shrine or whatever... I am really interesting in knowing more about this..
The spontaneous tear shedding exercise seems to be common to all shias and I have grown with it (my mom is a shia)... is it a cathartic expression of all the pain one feels in one`s own life time, and the Prophet`s family and their pain becomes representative of all that?
-YLH
Thanks for the post...
Between the Junoon concert (and let me tell you Junoon are the coolest people.. infact Salman Ahmed the guitarist knew me by reputation.. when I told him who I was, he goes `ah so you are yasser hamdani aka greywolf`.. just wanted to boast) and Urbayeen Chelum which i attended at the behest of a shia friend etc... I really didn`t get much sleep so I couldn`t answer you before...
You mention spontaneous tears when you went to Hazrat Abbass`s alam or shrine or whatever... I am really interesting in knowing more about this..
The spontaneous tear shedding exercise seems to be common to all shias and I have grown with it (my mom is a shia)... is it a cathartic expression of all the pain one feels in one`s own life time, and the Prophet`s family and their pain becomes representative of all that?
-YLH
#164 Posted by Ralph on May 4, 2002 11:55:57 pm
semipreciousme #150
..the targeting of shias that’s happening right now is NOT government sponsored/sanctioned ….it’s being carried out by royally screwed up pieces of s hit who want to create as much havoc for the gov’t/pakistan as possible…
Is that true? How many Shia professionals, worshippers have been killed in Karachi alone? How many killers has Pakistani government caught? Is there a relationship between shia killers Pakistani police and government? Is there a relationship between rabid shia haters, Jaish Mohammad, and Pakistani agencies?
Read about the glories of a peaceful religion elsewhere. SECRETS OF THE MOSQUE
http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/0408/cover/
..the targeting of shias that’s happening right now is NOT government sponsored/sanctioned ….it’s being carried out by royally screwed up pieces of s hit who want to create as much havoc for the gov’t/pakistan as possible…
Is that true? How many Shia professionals, worshippers have been killed in Karachi alone? How many killers has Pakistani government caught? Is there a relationship between shia killers Pakistani police and government? Is there a relationship between rabid shia haters, Jaish Mohammad, and Pakistani agencies?
Read about the glories of a peaceful religion elsewhere. SECRETS OF THE MOSQUE
http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/0408/cover/
#163 Posted by stuka on May 4, 2002 11:55:57 pm
Today was the first day of peace in Gujarat. No incident of communal violence took place. Today was also the first day of KPS Gill`S assignment in Gujarat.
History is being repeated. As usual it takes a Sikh to sort out the Hindus and the Muslims.
History is being repeated. As usual it takes a Sikh to sort out the Hindus and the Muslims.
#162 Posted by harimau on May 4, 2002 11:55:57 pm
Ref AAmir #: 157
[What is your point ?]
The point that is being obscured by hand-wringing Hindu apologists is that EVERYBODY`s life is affected regardless of Hindu, Muslim, Parsi, etc.
The point is that Hindus are also getting killed -- in smaller numbers, yes -- but they are also at the receiving end.
The point is that this particular aspect is being ignored by both the Indian newspapers and by all the posters on Chowk.
Now, is the point clear?
[What is your point ?]
The point that is being obscured by hand-wringing Hindu apologists is that EVERYBODY`s life is affected regardless of Hindu, Muslim, Parsi, etc.
The point is that Hindus are also getting killed -- in smaller numbers, yes -- but they are also at the receiving end.
The point is that this particular aspect is being ignored by both the Indian newspapers and by all the posters on Chowk.
Now, is the point clear?
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