The Aga Khani

Ref DRUMZ #: 217

[...And the BRAINDEAD masses continue to argue over who has the better country...]

You think there is even a comparison between India and Pakistan? That is a laugh!

[Is it possible for all of you to write your ages next to your posts?]

Harimau, Age 2

[There`s a part of me whoich refuses to believe that anyone over 25 can be this stupid.]

Look in the mirror.

InYourFace #272 You write ``It`s not like something exciting going on in your life (judging by the amout of venom you are secreting on these boards).``

You got that wrong too. Venom is when you post insults about other communities of people, or become an apologist for real-life violence of any kind. I dont do that and in fact go to the trouble of contradicting posters who do this rather than just ignoring them. If that strikes you as venom, then I suggest it is you who have a problem. If you think I have written posts that qualify as being venomous, please cutandpaste them for my information and I will be much obliged for your trouble.

Since I have not gone to the trouble of digging up your post that i thought I saw many months ago on chowk which prompted me to say that you are not so much into ``rainfed agriculture or something`` as into writing posts ridiculing Pakistanis, I will assume you are right in saying you dont write such posts and would rather be discussing the monsoons or something.

saminashah:

[when my grandma cooking keema and aloo gosht isn`t over his house and making seedhi saf behavior possible and seedy behavior impossible...]

-Its the opposite round ours, we all misbehave when my grandma`s in the house, shes a right rascal...

[As for the little bird, he`s a pleasure to have around, hain?]

-He`s the best.

[Have you read Tamberlaine?]

-Sadly no. All the Elizabethan writers outside the bard remain in my mind in synopsis form only. I have been working my way through some of the Greek dramatists recently.

[How long have you been writing for?]

- On and off, for a few years. But have been doing it more seriously recently.

[Btw, for future reference, I`m a New Historicist woman myself...Jean Howard rocks over here, as do Foucault and Terry Eagleton. I really like Foucault actually]

-Ahem, you are really going to hate me. I am not much into critical theorists. If I had to align myself with any mode of literary thought I would say the ideas propounded by Professor Howard Bloom of Yale, especially in his study ``The Western Canon``, appeal to me most. I know that wont be attractive to you (especially what he calls ``the school of resentment``...) but hey we can still be friends?

:)

-h-

Scout,

re: ``yeah i read that one, in the online edition. what these caucasians don`t know is that there is a subtle and gorgeous side of desi clothing, have you seen what some of the Pakistani designers are coming up with?``

- No havent had the time...but I mean to check out whats emerging within the fortnight...

``not everything is gaudy and shiny anymore.``

-Hasn`t been for a while; how annoying that our supremely good taste is being ripped off and made bland on one hand and kitschified with the other...

``mehndi is making a comeback in a new way... i saw some awesome designs in Libaas. the new trend is henna adorned with Swarovski crystals. sounds gaudy but it`s actually quite pretty, especiallly on the wrists.``

-now on the wrists sound lovely, as do the ankles or around the belly, if the work is delicate...has this reached Queens yet, do you know? Or are you in Canada?

In Your Face,

re: ``Aren`t you the one who jumped in defence of that MADAM from New York who used to talk `prostitution` and `Indian women` in same sentence bit too frequently?``

Careful pet or one might think rational and honest discussions on matters of race, gender, economic disparities and sex work are too complicated for your wee little brain. DO step out of the conversation, we understand. But do watch it; you might run into me socially and I would have to kick your assumptions about the room and spoil your dinner.

Harpeet,

Btw, for future reference, I`m a New Historicist woman myself...Jean Howard rocks over here, as do Foucault and Terry Eagleton. I really like Foucault actually...

tahmed321 # 247:

`` ...(and I am not spending time researching ancient posts for you either).``

I am sure. But seriously, why don`t you show some spine ... backup your words with data. It`s not like something exciting going on in your life (judging by the amout of venom you are secreting on these boards).

Aren`t you the one who jumped in defence of that MADAM from New York who used to talk `prostitution` and `Indian women` in same sentence bit too frequently?

Zafar:

About TBS ....

Tarun Bharat Sangh is transforming rural Rajasthan by awakening old memories!



The work of Tarun Bharat Sangh, and it`s founder Rajendra Singh in the districts of Rajasthan can easily be over-simplified as water-shed management whereas, it is in fact a revolution in regenerating life and society in denuded and deserted lands.

It`s a seemingly simple two-step programme. First, revive vegetation on barren hill slopes and second, build small water catchments in the valleys and the plains.

The revival course.

We will see in some detail, how it was done, a little later; but now a quick fast-forward to what happens down the time-line and how nature organises her rewards.

.... dead rivers begin to flow

.... agriculture becomes possible round the year

.... impoverished villagers, labouring in cities return, and families are re-united

.... wearying labour like fetching water, gives way to positive developmental work

.... with enough water and fodder, income from animal-husbandry begins to flow

.... nutrition levels rise and public health improves

.... wooded hills welcome back wildlife, that round off forests` whole-ness

.... people rid of insecurities, come together to address other issues of life, like education and local governance

.... awareness and confidence, enable micro-credit schemes that lower the cost of households and start small enterprises.

.... people with leisure, turn to crafts, reviving folk practices like herbal medicine and community welfare

.... when small communities like these succeed, the government itself wakes up and development becomes what it should be: ground-up, instead of top-down.

Utopia? ...

(http://www.goodnewsindia.com/Pages/content/inspirational/tbs.html)

Harpeet bhai,

re:``...When are you going to write a research paper on ``Singh in the Pub: Getting drunk as Political and social resistance in modern day Southall, England`` huh? I can give you some help on that topic if you like...``

Sounds marvy! I like the title ``Singhing in the Pub: The Semiotics of Bally Sagoo, Curry Fish and Chips in the New Global Saddam and Gommorah`` a bit more...as for your help, I have good reason to believe my rock god little bro might be able to compare notes from America, when my grandma cooking keema and aloo gosht isn`t over his house and making seedhi saf behavior possible and seedy behavior impossible...

As for the little bird, he`s a pleasure to have around, hain?

Have you read Tamberlaine?

How long have you been writing for?

saminashah #262,

yeah i read that one, in the online edition. what these caucasians don`t know is that there is a subtle and gorgeous side of desi clothing, have you seen what some of the Pakistani designers are coming up with?

.....

not everything is gaudy and shiny anymore.

mehndi is making a comeback in a new way... i saw some awesome designs in Libaas. the new trend is henna adorned with Swarovski crystals. sounds gaudy but it`s actually quite pretty, especiallly on the wrists.

re: saminashah

{Did you see last Sunday`s NYTimes Styles Section? (okay, yes, I read that piece of fluff, yes I am embarrassed to admit it-but its all for Pinkyfeld!)}

...yup, read it...that section always makes for good sunday morning entertainment...

{1. HELLO! This is SOUTH ASIAN CULTURE that we are talking about, not just India. What are the rest of us- haleem?}

...it`s just that india is a lot more active on the international fashion scene than pakistan...from local designers in india co-hosting shows with yves saint laurent to sandy dalal bustin on to the new york circuit (seems he`s got a his own gig at barney`s), all people see and hear is india...even though some of the motifs derive from shared indo-pak heritage...

{2. The misbegotten writer of the piece actually used the ``E`` word; yes folks, ``exotic`` and whats more, the ``G`` word-``garish`` to describe Indian aesthetics! Hud ho gaye! How dare they?}

...maybe exotic and garish is IN these days?...and indian (sorry, i mean south asian :) ) IS exotic to them...

{3. Someone compared the God/Goddess Hindu pantheon as ``Disney like``. Salt on paper cuts! Someone should write them, Rsax, Sadna and take them to task...}

...no way...even if i cared for religion, i would be more secure about it than to freak out over this...and in reality, hinduism is akin to greek mythology in the creativity, theatre, and drama associated with it...goras dig that stuff...they don`t mean to offend...let them have their fun...i`ve met too many dutch named vishnu to get alarmed about this stuff...

re:Reply #: 258

cutandpaste,

Gujarat should be put under army rule until all these unwanted elements creating communal problems are weeded out. Gujarat is putting India to shame. I wish along with the entreprenial skills, Gujjus also had some basic decency.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 263

Chunkey Pandey,

you will make a lot of enemies from across the border if you keep saying that. You are asking the Pakistanis to adopt something they have been trying hard for 50 years to give up viz Indian culture or any semblance of it. As for as most Pakistanis are concerned, India is Bharat. Indians in India and abroad need to make sure that BJP and Sangh Parivar does not thrust the same ideology down everyone`s throat. For us, India is Bharat + Hindustan + India, all put together.

Sridhar

saminashah;

[Sssssssshhh yaar! I`m supposed to be writing research papers entitled ``Moll in The Roaring Girl: Crossdressing as Political and Social Protest in Renaissance England`` (do you like that title?)]

- Do I like the title? I am still trying to work out what it means...

When are you going to write a research paper on ``Singh in the Pub: Getting drunk as Political and social resistance in modern day Southall, England`` huh? I can give you some help on that topic if you like...

[Lets just say a little bird told me...I have friends in high places you know..or rather, high friends in places...]

- ooooh wow

I think I know who...trying to play a trick on me eh??

Get back to studying cassocks as gender differentiated modes of resistance to patriarchal tropes of communication in light of Foucault and Barthes deconstructionist theories with reference to Sapphic references in Romeo & Juliet. Was she really a lesbian?

(lets hope so)

:)

just kidding

-h-

ps: Thanks for the appreciation! So kind.

sarwar #257 You write ``How can Islamic republic... ``

I ask: What is an Islamic republic if not a contradiction in terms and an imposition of a dictatorship on the pretext of Islam?

Sigalph,

re: ``On an aside, I do greatly appreciate your courtesy in posting the URLs of important items. That is a far cry from the entire articles being posted about repetitious things by unknown commentators, quoted by bored chowkwallahs. We could all learn from you in this regard. Thank you.``

(Face turning red)

Actually Sigalph dada, I (cough!) have actually posted one of those long winded articles of which you speak on another board...I couldn`t resist it...

I must confess to a few things: On one hand I agree that we need to cut down on the cutpastes, some of us in particular anyway. But I actually appreciate some of the articles being posted by interactors who cutpaste sparingly. I am so pressed for time lately, and quite frankly, cyber lazy, that it suits me just fine to read articles that aren`t drivel on interact boards...but, thanks for the shout out!

Btw, how are you? How was your trip to NYC? Were you able to find the music you were looking for?

I`ve got to get to Jackson Heights and Oak Tree Road-havent been anywhere for the last three monthes and am getting a bit antsy for chaat, mendhi and clothing! I`ve been SOOOOO GOOOOOD :(

Rsax, Sac, Scout-

Did you see last Sunday`s NYTimes Styles Section? (okay, yes, I read that piece of fluff, yes I am embarrassed to admit it-but its all for Pinkyfeld!)

There was a bit on Indian fashion storming NYC.

My reservations:

1. HELLO! This is SOUTH ASIAN CULTURE that we are talking about, not just India. What are the rest of us- haleem?

2. The misbegotten writer of the piece actually used the ``E`` word; yes folks, ``exotic`` and whats more, the ``G`` word-``garish`` to describe Indian aesthetics! Hud ho gaye! How dare they? After reading the article, I looked at my subtle dupattas, earrings and kurtas and wondered if I was misrepresenting....was I ``South Asian`` enough? Did I need to put on alot more jewelry and wear several patterns and colors at the same time? Is the NYTimes engendering yet another form of anxiety in its desi readers?

3. Someone compared the God/Goddess Hindu pantheon as ``Disney like``. Salt on paper cuts! Someone should write them, Rsax, Sadna and take them to task...

re:``saminashah

[Harpeet,Is that your short story on a Brit. fiction website? Its quite good! I believe you should post the web address of this site so other Chowkies can read it]

- Jeez, you really get about on the web dont you? Nothing escapes the eyes of saminashah! I always said you were the coolest. Yes, it is me. In fact, it is my first piece of fction to get published anywhere.

Anyone interested in reading a short story about Punjabi youth growing up in 1970`s England (Its funny and sad, and hilarious and a masterpiece blah blah blah....)

go to

http://www.short-stories.co.uk/``

-Sssssssshhh yaar! I`m supposed to be writing research papers entitled ``Moll in The Roaring Girl: Crossdressing as Political and Social Protest in Renaissance England`` (do you like that title?)

and not gadflying around the net as you suggest...

Lets just say a little bird told me...I have friends in high places you know..or rather, high friends in places...

anyhoo

good luck! Its a great story!

-h-

Is this the `tryst with destiny` ?

You can come back to your homes only if you... Drop rape charge, convert to Hinduism...villagers in Gujarat are setting terms for Muslims to return

http://www.indian-express.com/full_story.php?content_id=2176

sarwar # 257

``Surprising is that the Indian Kathak dance was organised by government officials. How can Islamic republic organise an Indian dance for Americans?``

Your question exposes your Indian roots.The dance

you refer to is called KHATAK and is presented by

male members of various Pathan tribes in the NWFP.

Regards

PS:You probably know that Kathak itself was developed by Nawab Wajid Ali Shah of Oudh and it may not be pc for you to call it ``indian`` in these

days of ``us`` and ``them``.

Arsenals Expand in India`s Sectarian Fight

Crude Bombs Pose Terrorism Worry



By Rama Lakshmi

Special to The Washington Post

Saturday, May 11, 2002; Page A21

AHMADABAD, India -- By day, Jaimin Gandhi is a young, ambitious computer student who dreams of making India the software superpower of the new century. By night, he pursues a passion more deeply rooted in the past. Gandhi and other Hindus march through the streets of this western city, protecting their religion, they say, from shadowy foes.

More than two months after an attack by Muslims on Hindus here in Gujarat state triggered India`s deadliest religious violence in a decade, the killing continues. With the official death toll already exceeding 900, with the majority of victims Muslims, local authorities and other observers say Gujarat`s sectarian clashes may be entering a new and possibly more deadly phase as both sides amass stockpiles of weapons.

On the streets of Ahmadabad, the state`s largest city, the angry bands of Hindus and Muslims who zealously guard their neighborhoods in tense, night-long vigils now are armed not only with stones, sticks and torches but also with acid-filled light bulbs and crude bombs. Police have found homemade ``mini-cannons`` and pistols in Hindu and Muslim neighborhoods. Officials said the manufacture of bombs and pistols has become a cottage industry for jobless youths.

Many local officials said the bombs, made of firecrackers, nails, knife blades and glass, have become their principal concern. Ten people were injured Tuesday when a bomb exploded on a bus in the town of Lunavada. In Vadodara, a police sweep unearthed bombs that contained gelatin sticks, a particularly powerful form of dynamite used in mining.

``This adds an element of terrorism, if you look at explosives and weapons that have been found,`` said Ashok Narayan, secretary of Gujarat`s Home Ministry. ``In a communal riot people try to settle old scores. But when such weapons are used in blasts it is dangerous, as you are killing people at random.``

As each side hears fresh reports that bombs and explosives have been found in the other side`s neighborhoods, the divide between Hindus and Muslims grows wider.

``Whenever curfew is lifted for a few hours, Muslims go looking for new explosives rather than food,`` Janak Thakkar, 20, a Hindu, said as he served water to thirsty policemen one night this week.

``We have not slept a single night in the past two months,`` said Yusuf Khan, 19, a Muslim who was parading with friends in the night, nervously watching for the shadow of approaching policemen. ``They are trying to finish off Muslims in Gujarat. They will force us to take up weapons.``

With the killings midway through their third month and showing no sign of ending soon, some Gujaratis say the damage to fragile Hindu-Muslim relations can never be undone, and that what happens in Gujarat will determine India`s course.

``If we don`t crush them now on the streets every night, Islamic fundamentalism would rear its head elsewhere and there will be many more incidents like the Godhra train massacre,`` said Virendra Shah, a Hindu hotelier, referring to the Feb. 27 attack that led to retaliatory riots by Hindus.

Since India gained independence in 1947, communal violence has flared periodically even as governments have grappled with how to balance the interests of the country`s diverse religious, ethnic and regional groups. The constitution established secularism as one of India`s guiding principles, but today 84 percent of India`s 1 billion people are Hindus, the national government is led by a Hindu nationalist party, and many Indians question whether secularism is workable -- or ever was.

``Secularism in India is a bogus word,`` said Shah. ``It only cheats us. Instead of equal rights to all religions, it has come to mean special rights for Muslims in India. The definition needs to be changed.``

The train attack, Shah maintained, has embittered Hindus toward India`s entire Muslim community of 130 million. ``The old concepts don`t apply anymore,`` he said.

``India`s secularism is seriously damaged in Gujarat,`` said Qutubuddin Sheikh, 57, a Muslim taxi driver who has not been back on the road since the rioting began. ``They want to establish a Hindu nation here. But I am not going anywhere. They have to deal with the fact that this is my land too.``

Such passions play out every night in Ahmadabad`s Kalpur neighborhood, a maze of narrow, winding alleys flanked by old, ornately carved houses where Hindus and Muslims have lived together for centuries. Streets strewn with broken glass, bombs and stones illustrate how distrust has replaced the decades of fragile peace that proximity had imposed.

Kalpur is wracked every day by rioting, which is followed by long, nervous nights. Hindu men gather on the steps of an old temple and Muslim youths huddle under a clock tower while bombs explode in the background and edgy policemen fire tear gas into dark lanes.

``This is the border,`` said Gandhi, the computer student, pointing to the line dividing the Hindu side of Kalpur from the Muslim side. ``We have to be vigilant. We have tolerated the Muslims for too long.``

Across the ``border,`` Ikram Beg, a 38-year-old cloth merchant, told a group of Muslim teenagers to be vigilant. For Beg, this is a decisive battle.

``Gujarat has become the laboratory for Hindu nationalism,`` said Beg. ``If we can defeat them here, India will be saved.``

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

THE SATURDAY PROFILE

A Pakistani Dancer and Her Life Underground

By SETH MYDANS

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=199292

KARACHI, Pakistan

FOR the well-dressed, well-heeled and well-bred of the Horticultural Society of Pakistan, it was an unusually daring event, even risqué. Organizers had obtained a rare government permit and admission was tightly controlled.

Under a round yellow moon at the exclusive Marina Yacht Club here, in full view of her assembled audience, a woman was about to commit an act most Pakistanis are forbidden by law to witness: a dance performance.

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White awnings billowed as a wind blew in from the Arabian Sea on this recent evening. Loudspeakers erupted with stuttering, syncopated music. Then, from stage right, a streak of white as the dancer, Sheema Kermani, bounded into the spotlight.

She never paused.

Sometimes with the rhythm, sometimes against, she bent and leaped and twisted. Her jeweled fingers flashed, her huge eyes flicked from side to side, her mouth opened and closed as if the music were breathing for her.

Vigorous, electrifying, sensual, a celebration of the body and its passions, her dance was everything conservative Muslim Pakistan now stands against.

In a country where most women cover their heads and some hide inside full-body burkas, where sexual feelings are seen as a challenge to purity and uprightness, a dancing woman is a defiance and a threat, and Ms. Kermani knows it.

``Muslim men have got this hang-up about dancing women,`` she said after her performance. ``They`re afraid that once they see a woman they can`t control themselves, that either she`ll seduce them or they`ll rape her.``

Quick, darting, impatient, Ms. Kermani, 49, fills her pauses with as much energy as her gestures, and she is as vivid and forceful offstage as on, her words as sharp and expressive as her dance movements.

``Here you have a whole culture in which girls are told to hide their bodies, not to be proud of their bodies,`` she said, eating whatever was placed before her at a formal table. ``At the root is the fact that men are scared of the power of women.``

It is a patriarchal challenge that seems to stimulate her. Dance, she said, is as much a social statement for her as an art. ``When a woman stands up on stage, she stands up straight and she says, `Here I am. And here is my body,` `` she said. ``I think that is the statement that people are afraid of.``

For the past two decades, strictures on dance have tightened as Pakistan has grown more conservative. Most public performances are now against the law. This year, all forms of dance were banned from television.

As a result, one of the region`s great art forms is disappearing here, although it still thrives across the border in India. Ms. Kermani is one of the few performers who have not retreated into exile or retirement, one of Pakistan`s last great classical dancers.

For all her vibrancy, when Ms. Kermani dances she is already an artifact of the past, a ghost dancer leaping and whirling as if her world were not already dying around her.

``I don`t believe there is any other country where dance has got this kind of stigma to it,`` she said. ``Only special private performances like tonight are allowed, and even for this they had to get special permission.``

Under these conditions, it is impossible to make a living as a dancer.

``It depends on the political situation of the moment,`` she said. ``If things are fine, then maybe I will have one performance a month, or even two or three. But sometimes months go by and I get nothing.``

She supports herself by teaching the daughters of wealthy families who want to give them a taste of their culture. Few stay long. Only two of her female students have continued into their 20`s and both seem on the verge of disappearing.

It has become a social convention in Pakistan that dance is immoral, even sinful. ``A girl might not get a proposal of marriage if she is seen performing on stage,`` Ms. Kermani said, laughing. ``It`s very hard to go against convention. But one can if one wants.``

She does not deny the sexuality of her art, which has its roots in the earthy philosophies of Hinduism. But this is something to be celebrated, she says, not suppressed.

``There`s a devotional aspect and there`s an erotic aspect as well,`` she said. ``In Indian culture, the God who is most important in dance is Lord Krishna. You worship him and at the same time he is a lover.``

For Ms. Kermani, dance is also a weapon. Art and political activism, she said, have always gone hand in hand for her.

The daughter of an army major, she said the arts were a part of her world from childhood — piano, painting and dance. She was precocious in all of them. Five years after she started to study dance, she began teaching, at 21, alongside her instructors.

She earned a degree in fine arts in London, then studied in India with the masters of different dance forms. At the same time, she said, she took up political and feminist causes. ``I`m very motivated in the women`s movement and in the peace movement,`` she said. ``Dance is part of this whole thing with me.``

When the conservative crackdown began in the 1980`s, she fought back, and she spends much of her time now as a leader of a politically oriented theater group.

``There is very little theater in Pakistan today, very little dance, very little song,`` she said. ``And that`s because they are so subversive. They tell the truth.``

Ms. Kermani`s husband works in theater as well. They have no children, but most mornings her front room is busy with little girls as she teaches them her art.

HER house is filled with music and the ocean breeze twirls strings of wind chimes at her door.

In Pakistan, it seems, murder is often considered a solution to disagreements, and Ms. Kermani said she regularly receives death threats, by telephone or written note.

Once, when she performed with a theater group at Karachi University, she said, students threatened to kill any man and woman who appeared together on stage. At other times, when she dances in major hotels for special functions, employees there send her threatening messages.

``Nothing has happened,`` she said lightly, back home now from her performance at the yacht club. She walked quickly through her house, stripping her wrists of bangles, unclasping the jeweled ring from her nose and letting loose her long, black hair — lithe, graceful, impulsive, a girl of 49.

``I am still alive,`` she said. ``I believe in what I`m doing. I do it with all truth and honesty. And that`s how I`ve survived.``

saminashah

[Harpeet,Is that your short story on a Brit. fiction website? Its quite good! I believe you should post the web address of this site so other Chowkies can read it]

- Jeez, you really get about on the web dont you? Nothing escapes the eyes of saminashah! I always said you were the coolest. Yes, it is me. In fact, it is my first piece of fction to get published anywhere.

Anyone interested in reading a short story about Punjabi youth growing up in 1970`s England (Its funny and sad, and hilarious and a masterpiece blah blah blah....)

go to

http://www.short-stories.co.uk/

-h-

Reply Semipreciousme # 243

``what i was saying is that, imho, i really think that the higher echelons of power aren’t colluding with these terrorists…"

Perhaps not directly, but they are allowing the lower echelons to get away with it, either because they can`t stop them (so their control is limited), or because they feel that the outcome is in some way beneficial to them (see! see! I am all that stands between the country and religious conflagration, please extend more support to me personally and send bank draft...) or they just don`t find it worth the effort to stop.

And no, it`s not just Pakistan that some of these shoes fit.

``….no one can stop ppl from killing, unfortunately….but i agree…the pak. gov’t can do more to prevent these killings…"

The knowledge that they will personally get away scott free (without paying any penalty) for these murders is something which enables the killers to operate so freely. If the Govt made sure that even some of them were arrested and prosecuted I think the killings would reduce drastically, in fact they might stop.

And again, that`s not just the case in Pakistan.

Regards

re: Zafar

{I do agree that Godhra should be discussed, and understood, in order to ensure that this kind of violence does not occur again. (Exactly as Gujarat is currently being discussed. Yes.)}

...more specifically, what needs to be understood is how india managed to create pockets of society that produce human beings capable of burning alive other innocent human beings...religion is amost incidental to gujarat and godhra...what is critical is why and how we are producing barbarians...today, religion is the outlet for the barbarians, tomorrow it will be something else...let`s treat causes, not symptoms...

re: cutnpaste #250

...india should not be supporting people who believe suicide terrorism is an acceptable form of protest...personally, i am glad india has distanced itself from arafat...

...as for the other arab nations, i believe india HAS remained engaged with them...the author of the article is being alarmist...for example, india is still close to saddam, and reports suggest it continues to do business with him despite UN or US restrictions...if arab nations felt alienated by india, they would have started making noise about kashmir, and they have not, even at recent OIC meetings...india must and will keep them content enough so they never do...

...the author makes a loose assumption that india`s new engagement of china means disengagement with others...for various reasons, india and china are unlikely to become best buds, but both are being practical in pursuing mutual benefits of economic engagement...(it is a a strategy pakistan might want to consider viz-a-viz its relations with india...economic engagement to build trust before making loud demands to solve the thorniest issues)...

...(if you think StarTrek was real and Elvis is alive, you might also believe this is the beginning of the unholy indo-russia-china axis that the russians have been talking about)...

InYourFace #233 Looks like I got myself a squealing rat...heh! heh!...and claiming that he never said anything against Pakistanis in general either. I dont step on anyone`s tail unless I know the tail belongs to a chauvinistic rat of some kind, and you proved credentials last time we interacted a few months back (and I am not spending time researching ancient posts for you either). So you would rather discuss ``rain-fed irrigation or something`` now I am sure, rather than squealing because I have stepped on your tail.

re: InYourFace # 233

I assume you ended your post on a lighter note, but boss, this is a very WRONG time to use words loosely. I hope you will understand.

We are passing through such a terrible time...all of us may want to be VERY careful to avoid words that can be misunderstood.

A wrong benchmark for Indo-Gulf ties

Gulf News

| By Neena Gopal, Our Asia Editor | 08-05-2002

Print friendly format | Email to Friend

India`s `look East` policy that took its Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh to China was an affirmation of the minister`s much touted forward-looking foreign policy initiatives that have propelled India onto the world stage.

But while he won plaudits for establishing new linkages with a prickly neighbour, there is an urgent need for India to `look west`.

It must now seek to strengthen tenuous ties with its own immediate neighbourhood, particularly with the Arab world in the troubled context of the atrocities being committed by Israel on the Palestinian people, and the rising horror here in the Gulf over the targeting of Muslims in the Indian state of Gujarat.

The killings in India`s once prosperous western state, if not stopped, have the potential of not just inhibiting India`s outward looking foreign policy from growing, but could prove as much of a stumbling block in the improvement of relations with the Arabs, as Kashmir once was.

While the question of whether India has a `look west` policy at all is debatable, the form it should take is not, given the Indian government`s two-track policy in the Middle East.

Under the Atal Bihari Vajpayee government, the policy has, on the one hand, translated into stepped-up contacts with the Jewish state of Israel, albeit on a military level, with a direct co-relation to growing ties with the U.S. On the other, it has allowed older ties with President Arafat to become moribund.

A foreign policy, that puts India`s strategic and security interests first and her crying need for Israeli and U.S. military hardware and intelligence, to contain what it sees as continued infiltration from neighbouring Pakistan, should not ignore two things.

India`s energy security needs a sustained energy-related partnership with its main suppliers, the Gulf states. But India`s moral standing in the world cannot be held hostage to a government`s myopic and limited link with a nation that is fundamentally anti-Islam.

The contrast between Singh`s China visit and his last visit to the Saudi kingdom cannot be more marked. With China, Singh and his team have moved step by step to connect at increasingly higher levels, demonstrating India`s tactical shift towards engaging with the more powerful Asian superpower.

Its deafening silence on the unfolding tragedy in the West Bank towns of Jenin and Nablus and Ramallah, however and the consequent erosion of goodwill after Singh`s January 2001 visit to Riyadh, cannot go unnoticed.

India`s policy of building economic bridges, as it has done successfully with China in opening up her north-eastern states to commercial interaction, is the warp and woof of the forward thinking initiative by the foreign office that attempts to weave economic links before tackling contentious issues like border and territorial disputes.

India watchers who commend Singh for his bid to break China`s strategic encirclement of India, by reviving the fabled road and rail links to Mandalay, and Bangkok, say that India has failed to capitalise on the inherent strategic assets that it already has in place in the Gulf and the Middle East.

``When it comes to the Middle East and the Palestinian issue, India`s foreign policy seems to have hit a road block,`` a South Asia expert said. It must factor into its calculations that one-third of India`s energy needs are met by the Gulf states, and at least 10-12 per cent of the workforce in the region come from India.

The profile of that workforce has changed. While the labour force continues to be drawn from India, more and more professionals, particularly in the IT field are finding jobs in a region, looking to grow in IT and energy related fields.

The preferred partner

India`s political and military significance after the nuclear tests, it`s attractive markets make it the preferred partner for growth, the expert said. Yet, India ranks way below Japan, for instance and China, in its economic interaction, points out Hussein Al Athel, Secretary General of Riyadh`s Chamber of Commerce and Industry.

In Saudi Arabia, officials privately admit that their country`s disenchantment with the Taliban, the Al Qaida extremist elements that have proved a source of instability, have worked in India`s favour vis-a-vis the Kashmir issue.

``The Kingdom`s position on Kashmir now emphasises the bilateral process, with a dialogue with Pakistan on the basis of existing agreements like Simla and Lahore,`` a senior foreign policy expert said in Riyadh. ``There is acceptance the solution as sought by Pakistan cannot be delinked from India`s concerns relating to cross-border terrorism,`` he added.

India`s ability to translate this into a stronger backing in world forums had failed in the past. But the gradual shift in Saudi policy was demonstrated when it became the first Gulf country to send aid after the Gujarat earthquake and second, when it categorically condemned the attack on India`s parliament as an act of terrorism.

A first

``This is the first occasion when Saudi Arabia made a pro-India comment on an issue involving `jihad`,`` the expert said.

Points out Dr. Bandar Al Aiban, a senior member of Saudi Arabia`s powerful Majlis Ash Shura, and Chairman of its Political Affairs Committee ``we see India as a force for stability and peace in the region, we value it for its secular credentials, for being a moral force for peace, and we would like India to speak up and play its role as a power in the region.``

Dr. Aiban says India`s policy on Palestine, and now, the events in Gujarat could cost it dear. Palestine is under siege, and India, which should have shaken out plans to help rebuild the Palestinian National Authority, whose every last vestige of authority the Israelis have sought to remove, is caught in a web of silence.

Barring the mandatory statements from the Ministry of External Affairs and a statement at the UN, India has kept its distance.

As a South Asian diplomat said, ``Foreign policy is not made by statements. It requires you to be interactive, to build ties with that country based on the broad, strategic interests you share, be they political or economic or both.``

``If its hesitancy to speak out, stems from its worry over what Israel will think, they should realise that Israel is not the superpower, it is the U.S.,`` the diplomat added.

Politically too, it is at an impasse. The recent visit by Arafat`s envoy to Delhi and the manner in which he was cold-shouldered raises questions on whether India, caught in its own domestic political crises, will be able to shake off its traditional lethargy - unless it involves immediate neighbour Pakistan and now increasingly the U.S.- to build a foreign policy that addresses its own broader strategic interests in the Middle East region.

Indian foreign policy experts who advise the Bharatiya Janata Party-led government on foreign policy issues say that backing Palestine has brought few rewards in the past, with the Organisation of Islamic Countries (OIC) for instance, continuing to issue hostile statements vis-a-vis India`s position on the state of Kashmir.

Diplomats who deal with the region have remarked on India`s closeness to the Iranian regime yielding equally little fruit, but also emphasise that since India`s attempt to reach out to Saudi Arabia, the dominant Gulf country last year, the OIC has toned down its statements.

Critics of the government`s policy say that India must shed its Kashmir fixation and build links with the Gulf states on an economic and people-to-people level as it has done with the U.S. and China.

The Gujarat factor

The real danger today is that India, currently looking inward, is myopic over the larger ramifications of the Gujarat killings.

India`s lawmakers` bruising 16-hour debate on the Gujarat massacres that have claimed thousands of lives, is indicative that, Gujarat not only claims the attention of India`s parliamentarians, it now consumes the Atal Bihari Vajpayee-led coalition government, which is buffeted by the twin challenges of survival and identity, and has time for little else.

The Indian government, grappling with rising concern in the UK and the EU over the events in Gujarat, seems unaware of the knock on effect any such onslaught on the Muslim minority in India, particularly when seen as a cynical experiment in Hindutva, will have in the Gulf states.

No Gulf state has officially condemned the killings, but privately senior Saudi officials, for instance, have said that while relations with India are no longer seen in the Kashmir context, the Gujarat killings could set in motion a realignment that may not, in the end, be to India`s liking.

India must therefore not allow Gujarat to become the new benchmark for Indo-Gulf relations.

RE: Reply #: 233 InYourFace

``BTW. Tvarad’s comments were supremacist in nature and I reject completely.``

This is total nonsense. I wish you had read what I said carefully. What I said was that there have been many thinkers/activists in Hinduism who have opened the path for Hindus to reconcile themselves with the modern age. I implied that it was wrong for Hindus to shun these leaders and embrace extremists who will only bring disaster much like Muslim extremists have done for their people.

I have already apologized for a sweeping statement that I made about Muslims when it should have been about Muslim leaders which I stand by.

I have been extremely critical of the current Muslim leadersship who have let their community down badly. I have also been extremely critical of Hindu organizations like the Saffron Brigade/ShivSena/BJP who are doing the same.

Please show me what is supremacist in these statements.

re: AAmir

...it is not the yasemin`s who need attention...they seem to be doing just fine...it is the the urstrulys, hobbytys, and progressives...

# 238 or #248

How refreshing and how original.

There will always be so-called ``true`` muslims who follow the ``peace-loving`` faith , and then you have the riff-raff who are nothing but the foot soldiers who are and will continue to present their message in their own inimitable way.

No amount of sophistry can hide the hydra headed monster.

Yasmean can do the world a real favor by walking into those Saudi schools as well as Saudi funded schools elsewhere and make them see light.

Harpeet,

Is that your short story on a Brit. fiction website? Its quite good! I believe you should post the web address of this site so other Chowkies can read it....

regards

I have had many personal differences with tahmed321 and some of them very violent, but nowhere is skewness of Indian mentality more visible then when an Indian Hindu fanatic calls tahmed a Mullah.

harimau #208

“I hate to disillusion you but the fact is, anytime there is a killing of a minority group, it is sponsored/sanctioned by the authorities.”

….first of all, i hold no illusions about the gov’t or otherwise….the sad state of affairs today speak for themselves….what i was saying is that, imho, i really think that the higher echelons of power aren’t colluding with these terrorists….call it an illusion, delusion or whatever…

“When the Shia killers are apprehended, tried, convicted and punished -- every last one of them –“

….that’d be great…but we are talking about pak. here…



“and the killings stop, then you can say there is no complicity by the state apparatus in the killings of Shias in Pakistan.”



….no one can stop ppl from killing, unfortunately….but i agree…the pak. gov’t can do more to prevent these killings…

Reply InYourFace # 233

“O Bhai Saab, Zara Hallu!”

:-)

ok.

*coughs embarrassedly *

I guess I was somewhat in your face with that.

I have taken all you said on board. I’m in the midst of another discussion (elsewhere) about how people have to put themselves in “the other”s shoes – clearly I have failed to do that with you.

For this please accept my apology.

I do agree that Godhra should be discussed, and understood, in order to ensure that this kind of violence does not occur again. (Exactly as Gujarat is currently being discussed. Yes.)

Here are just a few thoughts on why this is not happening – I would be curious to know if you agree with my assessment of why it isn’t happening, and if you do, what do you think we could do to overcome the problem. Also why people are approaching the two differently – and whether this is justified or not.

There is no significant body of opinion in India which buys into the theory that because Kar Sevaks misbehaved with Muslim vendors at Godhra station (an allegation which is partly backed up by interviews with some of the affected vendors, but which remains pretty unclear) the violence at Godhra was justified in any way.

There may have been some opinions like this floated immediately after the massacre, but they have received no support, from the public or from “Muslim spokespeople”, and they are not even presented any more.

In fact there seems to be a consensus on Godhra: it was a crime, the people responsible for it should be caught and prosecuted to fullest extent of the law. And that is, in fact, what is happening. (There is some question about whether the violence was spontaneous, organised, planned…but essentially we are agreed, as a country, on what approach to take to the incident, and how we have defined Godhra, and who are the bad guys. Right? There is even a growing feeling that the curriculum of madrassahs may have contributed to the blind hatred that enabled criminals to set a rail bogey alight with people inside it, and that the Government has to step in and oversee madrassahs – which it has started to do, notably in West Bengal, which I think is a long overdue step – check Taliban if wondering why.)

What is left to urgently debate and decide, if these basics have been agreed on? This is no disrespect to the people who lost their lives in Godhra, but an honest question. (I think there is stuff to sort out.) Especially as the nation’s attention is engaged in another discussion whose outcomes have not yet been decided to the satisfaction of a critical mass of stakeholders, and urgency in these matters is relative. (Again, NO disrespect meant to the dead of Godhra, nor is it my intention to minimise the importance of dealing with the forces which caused those deaths.)

Because there IS a significant body of opinion (or at least of powerful people) who clearly state that Gujarat was a spontaneous public reaction to Godhra, and there is another body of opinion that holds that Gujarat was preplanned and spearheaded by parivari organisations with the complicity (if not participation) of the State Government. And one set of opinion-holders has the power to promote its view in the governmental and legal arena, while the other set does not, but is well represented in the English Language Media and the professional urban classes. Many of us may well feel that we know the truth, but there is no consensus in the country on how this truth (which truth) is going to be acted on – we may have opinions, but there is still struggle over defining, just for a start:

1 What exactly happened. We haven’t even agreed on how many people have been killed.

2 Who was responsible?

3 Who were the victims?

And the struggle over assigning responsibility is made even harder by the fact that a State Government stands among the accused, but also among the accusers, and certainly among those who are “responding the situation”, (eg misregistering FIRs?) which (as you know) is not yet peaceful. (I haven`t even gone into the political aspects of the similarities to the anti-Sikh pogrom in 1984...)

So yes, the issues Godhra raised (religious bigotry, police incompetence, violence) must be discussed, but right now I the issues brought up by Gujarat (religious bigotry, Government complicity in crimes and the implications for politics and Governance across India, the role of organised crime, the sheer volume of deaths and violence, and most important, the fact that it is continuing, that it is not over) areovershadowing them. (I am not implying that there is no violence by Muslims against Hindus at present. there is, but I think the dynamics of it are not the same as that at Godhra, although perhaps some of the issues are the same?)

I don’t know what we can (or should) do about it, except to include Godhra in all comments and discussions of religious bigotry and violence, so that it doesn’t become a “Hindu-bashing” exercise. I can see your sensitivity to this – truly, it was not my intent to insinuate that one “side” is better than the “other”. Or rather, one side IS better than the other, and the better side I am talking about has both Hindus and Muslims (oh and anybody else who fits) on it, and is the side of people who are not bigots.

Your ideas welcome.

“ONE FINAL THING: If you don’t agree with me or don’t understand me, ask me but don’t call me a ‘Hindutvavadi’. If you do I may have to k1ll a Muslim like you to prove that I am not a Hindutvavadi.”

Wokay swami.

“PS: Are you familiar with “Tarun Bharath Sangh”? They are fascinating.”

No I’m not. More info?

Regards, and hope that you got through this post.

There are many idiots who baldly say `there was no state complicity` and often go unchallenged. Can posters pl. post here authoritative press/other reports they know of, which explicitly talk of state complicity at different levels.

Let me begin:
http://hrw.org/press/2002/04/gujarat.htm
http://hrw.org/reports/2002/india/

“We Have No Orders To Save You”
State Participation and Complicity in Communal Violence in Gujarat

http://www.outlookindia.com/specialfeaturem.asp?fodname=20020411&fname=chenoy&sid=1
Gujarat Carnage 2002
A Report To the Nation by An Independent Fact Finding Mission

http://www.outlookindia.com/specialfeaturem.asp?fodname=20020502&fname=women&sid=1
How has the Gujarat Massacre affected minority women - Fact-finding by a Womenís Panel

``IMO, the incident was sparked by the deepfelt grassroots sense of isolation and exclusion felt/percieved between the Hindu and Muslim communities` political goals, symbolized by the support for Ram mandir among Hindus and the Muslim community`s grievance about the Babri mosque.``

To those who wanted to discuss Godhara along with Gujarat.

IMO, the incident was sparked by the deepfelt grassroots sense of isolation and exclusivity felt/percieved between the Hindu community`s political goals, symbolized by the support for Ram mandir among Hindus and the Muslim community`s grievance about the Babri mosque.

There were just not enough political outreach and bridges built between communities vocalised at all levels of national discourse for a public sense that a consensus solution was possible.

Those who attacked the train in Godhara(and quite a few who were travelling on that train) were those who had mentally written off the opposite community as being anything but either-you-or-me adversaries. Both sides were only acting out in real life, adversarial sentiments which national-level public figures have had no compunction in vocalising for political purposes whether in Parliament or in election campaigns or when issues like the VHP shilanyas crop up.

But the lack of political outreach at all levels across religious lines for the resolution of contentious issues is only one aspect of the Hindu-Muslim issue.

Even in noncontentious issues like health and education, Hindu and Muslim leaders are responsible for allowing the marginalization of sections of the Muslim community:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/apr/20inter.htm

``..You see, ours is a democratic country. If somebody wants to study there is no dearth of facilities. If he can successfully compete in examinations, he can become an administrator, a doctor, engineer, lawyer.

The opportunities are there. The Muslims have to realise that since they are lagging behind their other brothers, they have to make cogent efforts to improve their lot. This realisation has to come. But it is also the duty of other communities, including the majority community, to ensure that their Muslim compatriots come out of the dire straits.

The Muslims should march at a galloping pace to catch up with their brothers. They must enjoy the blessings of education. Only then will they see the light...``


On health and the WHO campaign against polio.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/10/health/10SWIS.html

``...Another is India, the world`s hardest-hit country. Two recent outbreaks in other countries were traced to India, where in the northern area as many as 75 percent of Muslim children under 2 have yet to receive polio vaccine, Dr. Aylward said.

Although the polio extermination campaign reached 575 million children in 94 countries last year, Dr. Aylward said, there are geographic and worrisome demographic pockets of unvaccinated children like those in northern India. He also cited other geographic ``holes,`` one around the Somali capital, Mogadishu, and another in eastern Angola, where conflicts had prevented comprehensive inoculation programs...``


In India, there is always a blitz media campaign to publicise the polio immunization drive, with actors and public figures like Shahrukh Khan, Madhuri Dixit making repeated appeals on television, radio publicity, street plays, flyers in all public places etc. All you have to do is bring your child. A special campaign was even held for UP because of the higher incidence of cases there.

I cannot believe as some are sure to say, that the Muslim children mentioned above were brought to the incoluation centres but were deliberately refused inoculation. Perhaps the children were not brought to the centres at all and the question is why? Whatever the answer is, this is a failure of all Indians, not just of those Muslim parents.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Dost-Mittar, Prem and others interested

This is an excellent and spine chilling essay by Amitav Ghosh. I believe that we have reached a point in Indian history where if there is equivocation instead of action at this moment, the consequences for the future are well and truly bleak. India is cancer ridden.

[ESSAY

In The Reign Of The Headless Horse

Disband the Sangh parivar`s extra-governmental militias, or we could be heading the way of Zia-ul-Haq`s Pakistan.



AMITAV GHOSH

The recent carnage in Gujarat is not just a fresh chapter in the subcontinent`s annals of horror: it may well prove to be the prologue to horrors yet-un dreamt-of]

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20020513&fname=Column+Amitav+Gosh+%28F%29&sid=1

-h-

Tmullah321 #212:

You are just pissed that I was the one of the first one who dragged you out of the mullah closet. Does sun light affect the generation time of lice in your beard? Seems like it reduces the genernation time (hence more lice) ... is that why you are itching for a fight?



I challenge you to show me one post by me where I insulted Pakistanis in general? Now, go scratch.

Reply Banjaara # 225

What to do boss?

:-(

Farz hai.

Harpreet:

My dream is being shattered in Gujrath. I am groping in the dark to stop it.

Zafar Al-Talib # 205:

“What is hard to understand is the level of ongoing support and “understanding” that these people continue to receive from otherwise normal Hindus and Muslims.”

Exactly! Why do you think average people are reacting that way? In my opinion, one reason is general lack of trust among different groups of people. In this atmosphere, leaders (and average people) have to be extra careful about what they say. My example of Imam Bhukari’s comments about breaking India into pieces were used in this context and not as “some innuendo about Indian Muslims”. Similarly, ABV’s comments in Goa were anti-national and downright stupid, as were the comments by that VHP guy about Muslims eating beef. People are feeding off each other’s hatred … They did this … We did that. Now hope you understand why I said your responses to Tvarad’s left room for blame game? BTW. Tvarad’s comments were supremacist in nature and I reject completely.

There is hardly any thing I disagree with you with respect to Gujrath. However, if you are saying that there SHOULD NOT be any connection between Godhra and Gujrath (if only we had any effective governance), I think you are being idealistic and naïve. Average Indians already made that connection whether we like it or not. These sort of CONNECTIONS between events is a fact of life…. “Israeli occupation  Suicide bombers  Jenin camp atrocities” or “Rodney King  LA riots” or “Partition  Riots” etc. And in this case …Gujrath  Godhra  Shilanyas/Kashmir/Masjid destruction/Bombay Blasts/Rath Yatra Fiery speeches in maidans and masjids. Ideally, these events SHOULD NOT BE connected and in that respect we have been failing ‘Agnipariksh’ … each and every one of them.

I am practical and I don’t expect general outcry by ALL Hindus/Muslims about any atrocity… obviously some of them are perpetrators. I am sorry to say this but your comments about lack of general outcry by ALL the Hindus or comments about each and every Muslim condemning Godhra are highly subjective and potentially lead to a cycle of blame game. My response was how I wished your response should have been to Tvarad.



“What stuns me is that there are still some Hindus who try and explain away ALL EVIDENCE of Government/VHP complicity in anti-Muslim violence in Gujrath, and stick to the line that it was a “natural reaction” to Godhra by the majority community. They may well throw in a line on how they do not condone the violence, but the explanations they offer do EXACTLY THAT. What is going on in their heads?”

(Cycle starts again). Me too. And I was stunned too when articles in Washington Post and several Indian newspapers tried to explain away Godhra as a response to provocation by bajrang Dali thugs and as a reaction to “Shilanyas”. I am raising this point not as a debating point. I was truly angry at that article and a Hindu wrote it. Similar theory was converted into fact by one of the top British daily (I think Independent). My point is we should expect answers for each and every event however uncomfortable they are. The reason we are failing Agnipariksh is Hindus (some Muslims too) are expecting answers only for Godhra and Muslims (many many Hindus) are expecting answers only for Gujrath.

{“Re: Godhra.

“…was there a general outcry by ALL the Muslims about Godhra?”

Dude, that`s my point. Re: Godhra, I think the vast majority of Muslims DID condemn it, and made their views known, but re: WTC, I think there is still a segment which thinks Muslims didn`t do it...

“How can you assure me that there is introspection among Muslims regarding Godhra?”

Have you been around chowk? Have you read any of the discussions on Godhra? Have any posts by Muslims even suggested that they were not appalled by that? What makes you think there hasn’t been any? “}

Zafar Bhai! I raised those questions to remind you the subjective nature of your observations such as “ALL Hindus” or “Introspection among Hindus”. I guarantee you that Hindus and Muslims are equally introspective.

“Arre vaah! And your point is? Some inuendo about Indian Muslims? Some statement about Bukhari? Some statement about India? Any particular way you would like me to react to that (unsubstantiated) claim you made? Should I just shut up? No, sorry, I won’t.”

You are making a mountain out of molehill. I never meant any of those things. Only thing I am guilty of is not presenting the complete context for Bhukari’s utterance.

{“Come to think of it, majority of Hindus (outside of Gujurat) and ALL the Muslims on this planet are talking about Gujurat and it seems like ALL the Muslims pretend like Godhra never happened.”

It must be very hard for some people when their simplistic claims of all Indian Muslims always being violent against unceasingly peaceful and non-violent Indian Hindus have been so bloodily exposed as rubbish by members of their own team. (Hindutvawadis, NOT Hindus.)}

O Bhai Saab, Zara Hallu! You got all that from my statement. Forget Chowk. Have you been reading Indian newspapers? Everybody is talking about Gujrath (which is very good) but I feel there is little debate about Godhra (which is very bad). In my opinion debate (not the blame game) leads to solutions. Sooner or later Modi will fade off, BJP will be out of power but what do you think will happen to Godhra criminals? Nothing, based on the comptency of our govt. After that, all you need is one more Godhra and we will all be saying `jai Ramji Ki`. That`s why I hope we Indians should talk about pograms and Godhras.

ONE FINAL THING: If you don’t agree with me or don’t understand me, ask me but don’t call me a ‘Hindutvavadi’. If you do I may have to k1ll a Muslim like you to prove that I am not a Hindutvavadi.

PS: Are you familiar with “Tarun Bharath Sangh”? They are fascinating.

Good luck to you.

Dost-Mitter # 228


.......or the freedom fighters.

re: sigalph235 # 230

On the money. It is pathetic to see what is happening to Hinduism. The moment I hear anyone talk of Hindu brotherhood now, I know the plague coming.

re the RSS`

````It`s not a religion, but a way of life.``

That same nonsensical line has been the mainstay of agitated, born-again Muslims everywhere. WHat the RSS and VHP is doing is copying the Muslim absolutism and giving back 110 % of ideological garbage in return. Hinduism is one of the most arcane and bizarre religious systems that can be conceived; but let`s face the fact that, apart from Buddhism, it has been far more tolerant than any other major religious belief in the world. No jehads, no `my way or highway`, no darul harb/darul hinduism baloney. That is until the 1930s when the RSSS (now RSS) and Mahasabha learnt the art of absolutism well enough from traditional Islam and Roman Christianity to teach them (the Muslims and Catholics) a thing or two about ideological genteel (or not so genteel) bigotry.

re: AAmir

{It would help if you had given the URL or source of your opinion.}

...you want a URL for my opinion?...if you mean the source of the letter, it was The Friday Times...

{Not that it will be more credible b/c personaly i believe you b/c there are many muslim & nonmuslims Male & Females dont think it is fair.

But isnt the common saying about life itself is ``LIFE IS NOT FAIR`` ? And then how big of UNFAIRNESS is it ...when such incidents are ,Very v.rare, of muslim men taking advantage of it .}

...sorry, i can`t decode what you`re trying to say...

India`s Muslim-Hindu divide threatens Gandhi`s secular, peaceful vision

Wed May 1, 9:18 PM ET

By BETH DUFF-BROWN, Associated Press Writer

AHMADABAD, India - Mohandas Gandhi`s wooden spinning wheel still stands among the simple throw pillows where he once sat cross-legged, threading cotton, receiving world leaders and promoting his vision of a unified, secular India.



Today, just beyond the whitewashed cottages of the independence leader`s ashram, across a dry riverbed where sacred cows graze under the searing subcontinent sun, Muslims and Hindus have turned on one another with a ferocity not seen in a decade.

The handful of elderly men who live among the lush gardens at Gandhi Ashram can see the smoke from burning homes and stores. Police sirens disturb their daily prayers.

The violence in Gujarat, Gandhi`s home state where he founded his ashram, has claimed more than 900 lives statewide in the last two months, mostly Muslims beaten or burned to death, or killed in police firing. Human rights activists say the death toll may come closer to 2,000 when one counts the missing in the western state.

Gandhi, revered by his followers as mahatma or ``great soul,`` the man who led his people to independence from the British Empire, once wrote that ``Hindu-Muslim cooperation is our inevitable condition for Indian freedom,`` and several times he threatened to starve himself to shame his people into halting their feuds.

``Gandhi would have been very sad, he would have fasted to his death to stop all this,`` said Chunibhai Vaidya, an 84-year-old Gandhi disciple who lives at the ashram.

``But we have failed Gandhi, we have forgotten him, we have betrayed him.``

___

And yet, in many ways, the vision that Gandhi promoted until his assassination by a Hindu fanatic in 1948 is still alive.

A vibrant if sometimes messy democracy, a federal system and a constitution steeped in secular values allow India`s 120 million Muslims to live in relative peace among nearly 1 billion Hindus.

There are many more examples of harmony than hatred among those Hindus and Muslims who live side by side in thousands of villages throughout rural India and in its massive metropolises.

Muslims serve as judges and lawmakers. India`s richest man, Aziz Premji, chairman of the software giant, Wipro, is Muslim. Two of India`s presidents have been Muslims. One, Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed, was a Muslim from the northeastern state of Assam.

Assam, where 30 percent of the 26 million people are Muslim, is an example of the coexistence that is the norm for much of India. It is symbolized by the door on a Hindu temple in Gauhati, the capital, on which is a plaque commemorating Usman Ali, the Muslim who donated the land for the temple.

``We all believe that God is one. When Usman Ali donated the plot of land, I`m sure he had no idea of the significance of his gesture,`` said Manmohan Das, the Hindu secretary of the temple. ``Here, we are all living together in spite of the communal upsurge elsewhere in India.``

Most Muslims in India think of themselves as Indians first, Muslims second. Muslims and Hindus marry each other, go into business together, play together for India`s national cricket team.

India`s most popular movie stars are Muslims: Aamir Khan, whose colonial cricket epic ``Lagaan`` was nominated for an Academy Award this year, Shah Rukh Khan and Salman Khan. They`re known as the ``the Khan Brigade.``

Aamir Khan and Shah Rukh Khan are married to Hindu women. And Hindu heartthrob Hrithik Roshan`s wife is Muslim.

When Virsing Rathod heard the screams of his Muslim neighbors being burned alive during the first night of the riots in Ahmadabad, the burly Hindu and his two sons jumped in a truck, rammed their way through a Hindu mob and began pulling Muslims from the flames. They saved 25 Muslims that night and sheltered dozens more in safe houses.

``I did it out of humanity, because in my heart I knew it was the right thing to do,`` said Rathod.

Across the country in Calcutta live Srabani Das, a Hindu, and her Muslim husband, Naseer Khan.

``Never for a moment in our nine years of married life was there any tension because of religion,`` said Das.

``Naseer never asked me to change my religion. I still write my Hindu surname and he never interferes with my Hindu way of life,`` she said. ``We have friendly tiffs and we try to find the loopholes in each other`s religion and even cut jokes.``

Das said their 7-year-old daughter, Karishma — a neutral name that could be either Hindu or Muslim — helps put things in perspective.

``Our daughter is the binding glue. She has a Muslim father, a Hindu mother and a Christian-English schooling,`` Das said. ``I think when my daughter Karishma grows up, she will be a truly secular person.``

___

That sort of talk disgusts Hindu-fundamentalist ``kar sevaks,`` religious volunteers who dedicate themselves to promoting Hindu purity and preventing Hindu-Muslim marriages or conversions.

``Everyone living in India is a Hindu,`` says K.C. Sudarshan, head of the hard-line National Volunteer Corps. ``It`s not a religion, but a way of life.``

The religious divide dates back to the Muslim Moguls who invaded in the eighth century. Independence was born in the blood of 1 million killed when the subcontinent was partitioned into Hindu India and Muslim Pakistan in 1947. Frequent spasms of communal violence have followed, India and Pakistan have fought three wars and, now nuclear-armed, are spoiling for a fourth.

As more countries in the region took on a deeper Islamic hue, Hindu fundamentalism began to well up in India. The religious friction was hugely exacerbated in 1992, when Hindus tore down a 16th-century mosque at Ayodhya, claiming it was built on the birthplace of their supreme god Rama. Subsequent rioting left more than 2,000 people dead nationwide.

By the late 1990s the Congress party, standard-bearer of the Gandhi ethos and the ruling party for much of India`s post-independence history, was out of office and a coalition led by the Hindu nationalist party of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee was in.

The Gujarat debacle has undone much of the headway Vajpayee`s Bharatiya Janata Party has made in promoting itself as a reform-minded party with moderate views.

The fighting in Gujarat was ignited by a Muslim mob that set fire to a train carrying Hindus returning from a pilgrimage to the Ayodhya shrine, killing 60 of them. Since then more than 1,000 Muslim-owned businesses have been destroyed in retaliatory attacks. Fliers circulating in Ahmadabad, the state`s commercial capital, have called on Hindus to boycott Muslim establishments in an effort to ``break their backbones.``

Gruesome accounts of babies being doused in kerosene and set on fire, and orphaned children left alone to die of their burns, have provoked much soul-searching among Indians.

Mahesh Bhatt, a leading Indian filmmaker whose mother was Muslim and father Hindu, says the violence is a reminder that religious intolerance in India runs deep.

``Whenever you have deluded yourself that you have been freed of the religious biases your forefathers lived with, the poison that flowed in their veins, comes a fierce reminder like this,`` Bhatt said. ``The Indian mind is still shackled to its religious prejudices. Incidents like these just mirror the real soul of India.``

___

Vajpayee has had to walk a thin line between moderates in his 19-member ruling coalition and those who insist ``Hindutva,`` or Hindu-ness, should be a national political platform.

He headed off a potentially deadly showdown last month by deploying police and troops to stop Hindu fundamentalists from flocking to Ayodhya and laying the first stones for a temple on the site of the razed mosque.

Yet most Muslims, as well as many moderate Hindus, believe the revenge rampages after the train fire were orchestrated by powerful Hindu nationalist groups and sanctioned by Gujarat`s governor, Chief Minister Narendra Modi.

Gujarat happens to be the only state run outright by Vajpayee`s party and Modi is a longtime proponent of Hindu supremacy.

A report last week by New York-based Human Rights Watch alleges a cover-up: ``State officials of Gujarat ... were directly involved in the killings of hundreds of Muslims since Feb. 27 and are now engineering a massive cover-up of the state`s role in the violence.``

Hindus comprise 82 percent of India`s people, but the Muslim population is still the world`s largest after Indonesia. The higher Muslim birthrate alarms Hindu fundamentalists, even though Ashish Bose, a leading Hindu demographer, believes their fears of one day being outnumbered are groundless, since the Muslim population has expanded by only 1 percent every 10 years.

The Hindu nationalists accuse the Muslims of looking to Islamic Pakistan as their ideal, and the government is quick to blame Pakistan for everything from the Islamic insurgency in Kashmir (news - web sites) to the drought that plagues northern India.

Any spectacular crime in India is typically linked to Pakistan or Islamic militants. Church bombings two years ago were blamed on Pakistani agents. When the arrests were made, they were all Indian citizens.

``This obsession with Pakistan, the relentless anti-Pakistan talk, has created a lot of hatred in this society and then that gets extended to the minorities here, and that`s the Muslims,`` said Zoya Hasan, a Muslim professor of political science at Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi.

She said the carving up of the subcontinent is yet another thorn, 50 years later.

``A major grievance is the Hindu conception of sacred land, and partition of the sacred geography was the biggest sin,`` Hasan said.

That sacred territory extends to India`s only Muslim majority state, Jammu-Kashmir, the cause of two wars between India and Pakistan. Both sides claim the territory.

Tens of thousands — mostly Muslims — have been killed in a 12-year insurgency by Islamic militants fighting for Kashmir`s independence or merger (news - web sites) with Pakistan. Many of the fighters come from Pakistan and Islamabad offers them moral support.

The Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on the United States, followed by a suicide assault on India`s Parliament building that killed 14 people, have heightened fears that Islamic fundamentalists in India may be sympathetic to Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) and his al-Qaida terrorism network.

A new law passed by Parliament in March gives authorities sweeping powers to detain suspects without charges and try anyone suspected of supporting terrorists. Hindu fundamentalists applaud it; Muslims are fearful the law will only target them.

``The Muslims of this country won`t allow any outsiders to come in and terrorize India,`` said Munir Sheikh, a Muslim state insurance worker in Gujarat who is helping coordinate relief for some 150,000 Muslims made homeless by the violence.

``We love this country and would give our lives for it.``

Harimau: ``Yes, killing is wrong. Saying that ain`t going to stop it.``

Ur not saying ANYTHING. Killing isnt always wrong, but thats besides the point. Ur hindu/Indian, so u side with Hindus/Indians. Such opinions require little or no thinking.

``I am trying to point out how one-sided the entire discussion has been.``

Thats a statement of fact, but WHY? Compare the death tolls, the fact that one side is still continuing its killing (why the hell wouldnt it be discussed more???). Also, this is not much of a ``discussion.`` You`re talking with Muslim/Pakis who side with Muslims/Pakistan. ALL of you are ROBOTS.

``There is no connection. After all, Pakistan has been so lovey-dovey with India for the last 50 years.``

Anyone can be an ``intellectual`` you just have to read books. It is NOT everyone who knows how to focus and utilize her intellect in a wise manner. What the hell does Pakistan have to do with whats being discussed? It seems yall are so damn one dimensional that EVERY subject must include your childish, stupid and ignorant fascination with who`s country is the best. How old are you?

Zafar Al-Talib # 168,184,204,205

Bak raha huN junooN mein kya kya maiN

kuch na samjhe khuda karay koee

or better still

`` Jin pay takiya tha vohi pattay hava dene lagay``

With best wishes,

#220 tvarad

In a secular state, hindus don`t take on ``their`` thugs and muslims don`t take on ``theirs`` & so on. Civilized people, regardless of their personal beliefs should take on the thugs. It`s this our thugs, their thugs mentality that also quickly leads to `our thugs are more tolerant, we have bridged the gap to modernity`-kind of mentality.

THis is great. Now the Muslims in refugee camps in Ahmadabad who have survived the genocide by Hindus (for now) are gangsters. Yar kujh tay sharam karo.

InYourFace #201 you write ``I hope we Indians will get over this mess (Gujerat) and start talking about rain water harvesting or some such talk.``

Or (in your case and half a dozen other of your colleagues) back to start talking insults about pakistanis or some such talk. Your deep interest in rain water harvesting and other problems of the poor people in India is well-evidenced in your posts and that of your ilk on chowk.

RE: Reply #: 176 tvarad

``The real question for us Hindus is this: we have successfully bridged the gap between the ancient and the modern through so many thinkers from Raja Ram Mohan Roy to Mahatma Gandhi. Muslims are yet to reconcile themselves with the modern age.``

I have thought about the last sentence and I apologize if I offended Muslims at large by the generalization. What I intended to say (as implied in the rest of the article) is that the Muslim leadership and intelligentia has come up severely wanting in terms of leading the Muslim people into the modern age.

My article also alluded to the liberal thought process initiated by Hindu leaders which has defined modern India. But I also realize that there are powerful reactionary forces in Hinduism too who are perfectly willing to take India back into the middle ages in their naked grab for power as evidenced by the happenings in Gujarat. As a progressive Hindu (nominally at that) I believe that India will only move forward with equal rights for all, democracy and live and let live which would make me a pseudo-secularist and a Hindu Kafir in the eyes of the Sangh Parivar.

I need to take them on as much as progressive Muslims need to fight their extremists for self-preservation.

...why many think samuel huntington`s crystal ball is right on...why there will, sadly, be many more gujarats and jenins to come...

...and if we understand this good doctor correctly, ms. mehroz has committed apostasy, and since the penalty for apostasy is death, then...well, you get the idea...

{{Sir,

I was shocked to read the letter by Yasmin Mehroz “Hindu-Muslim” (TFT April 12-18) regarding Hindu-Muslim marriages. The holy Quran makes two things absolutely clear. First, when a Muslim female marries a non- Muslim male, from that point onwards, she becomes apostate. Secondly, a Muslim male may marry a Christian or Jewish women who is God-fearing and of good character. But even a Muslim male is not allowed to have a polytheist spouse.

So, regrettably, Yasmin Mehroz, though she has a name which sounds Muslim, is not actually a Muslim any longer.

Whatever the problems caused by Hindu extremism in Gujarat or the rest of India, Muslims should beware shameful appeasement and this appeasement should definitely not take the form of Muslim women marrying idolators.

Allah will give us the strength to fight our enemies and defend our religion. In the end, our faith and righteousness will prevail.

Dr. Umar Azam,

Manchester}}

Inyourface

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Seriously. Within a day or two of Godhra that criminal act was overshadowed by the rampaging Bajrang Dal mobs. Who is to blame, if at all, for the original murderous act being looked over, due to a pogrom being instituted against innocent Muslims? the VHP and their brownshirts. That is all the more reason why these thugs need to be slapped up, for defiling the memory of the dead of Godhra. Every Muslim I spoke to and saw utterly condemned what happened at Godhra. Quit playing semantic games. Indian society is seriously ill and needs an urgent dose of chemotherapy. Lets not be in denial about this.

Let us not eq

...And the BRAINDEAD masses continue to argue over who has the better country...

Is it possible for all of you to write your ages next to your posts? There`s a part of me whoich refuses to believe that anyone over 25 can be this stupid.