The Aga Khani

#102 pmishra2

``oh, no, this progressive disease has moved to this discussion as well.``

Obsessive progressive?

The chowkidars must be asleep at the wheel to let this person hijack the boards..

harpreet #104

I applaud your post. Modi and key cabinet members, the gujarat police chief and others should be tried. If the Indian state is incapable of doing so (shame! shame!), then anywhwere in the world works for me.

I would add that every indian should attempt, even with the smallest action, respond to this barbarism in Gujarat. This means speaking to family members who may have been fooled in the past by the BJP, community organizations in the west who are under the impression that the VHP is a cultural organization (!) and so on. Even small steps and social pressure will make a difference.

Ref Anika Zaidi #: 110

[Many comments possible on this ,how can religion be a factor in such things?Arn`t Judiaism maily genetically inheritted unlike Islam & Christianity which is open to all ...dumb intelligent alike?

Hindus fourth on list of SAT toppers

Ganesh S. Lakshman (IANS)

New York, May 1

Hindus fare the fourth-best in scholastic aptitude tests (SAT), says a US College Board statistical finding that has ranked 10 religious affiliations on the basis of their test scores.]

Whereas Hindus are NOT running around checking the length of the beards of their neighbors,

Whereas Hindus are NOT trying to learn Arabic as a foreign language and are NOT trying to learn by heart that ancient Book of Wisdom and Scientific Inquiry known as the Quran,

Whereas Hindus are NOT trying to fit 21st century reality into 7th century dogma,

HENCE religion becomes a factor in SAT tests.

Ref Harpreet #: 104

[Please excuse me Farzana for distracting your board, but I just felt the need to vent my spleen, you know how it is, cant hold yourself back sometimes…

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Luke Harding in New Delhi

Guardian

Tuesday April 30, 2002

Lawyers for three British Muslims who were hacked to death during riots in Gujarat said they would press for a Milosevic style trial of India`s prime minister and other leading members of his government at the Hague.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4404055,00.html]

How about some Milosevic-style trial for the police force of Britain or for some of the previous prime ministers? Must I remind you of riots in Southall, Bradford and other places or do you remember them without me reminding you?

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[THE CHICKENS ARE COMING HOME TO ROOST

Today I feel so proud to be British.]

You know, the British High Commission in New Delhi sent an internal report to London saying that if Godhra had not happened, some other incident would have been used to start anti-Muslim riots in Gujarat. Do you think it is possible to get predictions on the stock market or the Lottery from these folks?

On a DAILY basis, there are Shias being killed in Pakistan and there is NOT A PEEP from these a$$holes. Do you think if in Gujarat they had targeted only Shias, India would have been above blame?

Everybody is crying buckets over the Muslim deaths in Gujarat but the newspapers report that there are 100,000 Muslims who are now refugees AND 40,000 Hindus. So obviously the Muslims did not take it lying down. Where are the crocodile tears for the Hindu victims of the riots? Even better, doing some little arithmetic, since the ratio of Hindus to Muslims in India`s population is like 78% to 13%, shouldn`t the ratio of refugees be 120,000 Muslims and 20,000 Hindus? Does that imply that Muslim force on Hindus has been TWICE as violent?

Of course, NOT ONE PERSON has any kind words to say about the little children who were burnt to death at Godhra. They deserved it because they sang bhajans to their Gods. How dare they do that? Isn`t India secular and singing of bhajans, particularly on public property such as trains, is against the Constitution?

Let me again ask the question: Would there be this kind of discussion if India were a Muslim-majority state and the persons killed were:

a) Hindus

b) Shias

c) Ahmediyyas

d) Ismailis

e) Even any kind of Muslims?

Reply DRUMZ # 112

“Am I the only one who wants to kill progressive?”

Tak number kid, youhaving to wat turn, ok?

(Ithink progressv is Deepka. Deepka owesmne apolgy. He is nastyhabvits alsodity and bad hygeine.)

re: DRUMZ

{Am I the only one who wants to kill progressive? }

...count me in...

{Tell me where u live, Im gonna fly over to ur house and beat u with a quran...}

..i`d rather lock him in a room with 12-head...

Tahmed321 Fuzair,

Here is what a biologist has to say in the Atlantic Weekly:

``People have been so tightly connected throughout history that you can`t divide them up genetically into rigid groups. It would make more sense if ethnicity were a sort of voluntary affiliation, like religion. If that were the case people might quit looking for some sort of mysterious biological essence inherent in particular groups and instead acknowledge that all human groups are biologically linked.`` —Steve Olson, in an Unbound interview.``

Obviously, people believe in the myth of races because they suffer from an acute need to believe in the tooth fairy. What Steve Olson fails to mention is that belief in religion is not much different from or more ``voluntary`` than belief in one`s pure race: we are born into a religion and later on find a million excuses to justify our continued adherence to it.

Both race and religion would be harmless, even useful, psychological toys were it not for the abominable discrimination against the outgroup that follows from them. Such discrimination wasn`t always irrational. It made sense thousands of years ago when it was safer to kill a person who didn`t look like us than to talk to him or her. In that sense, excessive focus on one`s race or religion is an unerring sign of an unevolved mind.

It is heartbreaking, sometimes, to find religious and racial bigotries even in the most intelligent and liberal of minds. May be it is just my/our impatience showing...perhaps the wheels of time turn slowly. May be over the next few thousand years we will begin to see one another as human beings, not just some fake psychological categories that are drummed into our heads from the moment we are born. Social intercourse or any other intercourse may be possible then.

Salaam.

I feel I am on the wrong message board since people are talking about very different things..but here is my feedback regarding the Aga Khani article:

Ms. Versey`s comments are valid as her own personal experience, but I would warn sunni muslims who would use this as a tool for conversion/self-rightousness.

What Ms. Versey points out as the faults of the Aga Khani community are found in all muslim sects, certainly in sunni muslims of Pakistan. Examples:

* *Don`t sunni muslims also get all dressed up and perfumed for Chaand Raat where there is flirting between sexes?

* *Don`t we turn Ramadan into a time of socializing, overeating, galavanting, shopping, and planning outfits for Eid, rather than becoming more pious and practicing self-restraint?

* *Don`t pakistani women only cover their heads when reading the Quran, praying, or hearing the azaan, thereby imitating hindus (who only cover their heads when praying)?

* *Don`t we delegate responsibility for religion to maulvis, sheikhs, etc..instead of seeking to understand the Quran and hadith and forge an individual relationship with Allah? Islam is a relgion for ``men of understanding``, but how many of us seek to undestand Islam..don`t we blindly follow others assuming that in the ``land of the pure`` everything must automatically be islamic? Yet, what kind of islamic state has no (or close to none) public places for a woman to pray - thereby preventing women from observing a basic pillar of faith if outside of their home for their needs?

* *Don`t we celebrate non-Muslim holidays like Basant, New Year`s, birthdays (our own and that of the Prophet`s..which is complete innovation..which is forbidden in Islam), borrowing from Christian and Hindu customs?

My point being, if we use the actions of a community to judge its merit, sunni muslims in their current state would be big losers.

I think it is very easy to dwell on the faults of others and forget that much of the current state of the ``Muslim`` world is due to our own actions (or inaction). I think Margaret Halsey`s quote is very appropriate for sunni muslims today:

``Humility is not my forte, and whenever I dwell for any length of time on my own shortcomings, they gradually begin to seem mild, harmless, engaging little things, not at all like the staring defects in other people`s characters.``

I don`t write this to be argumentative, but to point out that we are all far from perfect and the place to start with improvement is within ourselves and our own communities.

Allah Hafiz

Ref hobbyty #: 90

[The problem with cults like the Aga Khani is the suppression or weakening of critical thinking through fatiguing activity, near-total control of the recruit`s time, and the repetitive message that only disaster results from not following the group`s ``change program.`` These manipulations induce the recruit to declare allegiance to the group and to commit to change him/herself as directed by the group. He or she can now be considered a convert embarking on a path of ``purification,`` ``enlightenment,`` ``self-actualization,`` ``higher consciousness,`` or whatever. The recruit`s dependency on the group is established and implicitly, if not explicitly, acknowledged. Moreover, he/she has accepted the group`s authority in defining what is true and good, within the convert`s heart and mind as well as in the world.]

The problem with religions like Islam is the suppression or weakening of critical thinking through fatiguing activity such as learning to recite the Quran, near-total control of the recruit`s time through a madrassah education, and the repetitive message that only disaster results from not following the revelations to the letter. These manipulations induce the recruit to declare allegiance to the group and to commit to change him/herself as directed by the group. He or she can now be considered a convert embarking on a path of ``purification,`` ``enlightenment,`` ``self-actualization,`` ``higher consciousness,`` or whatever. The recruit`s dependency on the group is established and implicitly, if not explicitly, acknowledged. Moreover, he/she has accepted the group`s authority in defining what is true and good, within the convert`s heart and mind as well as in the world.

History and other information about China`s little-known Muslim population

China`s Muslim Hui Community: Migration, Settlement and Sects by Michael Dillon. Pub: Curzon Press, Richmond, UK, 1999. Pp: 208. Hbk: UK40.00.

By Leila Juma

Twenty years ago, few Muslims realised that they were huge Muslim communities in what was then Russia. On western-drawn maps, the Muslim areas of Central Asia - which have gained `independence` by default after the collapse of the Soviet Union - were all shown as part of communist Russia and effectively divorced from the `Muslim world`. A few better-read Muslims knew that Russia had a `Muslim minority`, but that was about the extent of our understanding.

Far greater awareness of Muslim populations around the world has been one of the benefits of `Islamic revival` since the Islamic Revolution in Iran. There remains, however, a general ignorance about the Muslim community in China which is similar to that of the Muslims under Russian rule 20 years ago. People have become aware that the Muslims of north-western China are in fact Central Asian Muslim peoples living under Chinese occupation - as Muslims of other parts of Central Asia lived under Russian occupation for most of this century - and that there is a growing jihad against Chinese rule in these areas.

What is not generally realised is that there is also a far larger community of indigenous Chinese Muslims living in China proper, the descendants of both Central Asian settlers in China, and of Chinese people who converted to Islam centuries ago, under the influence of Muslim settlers, traders, ulama, teachers and others who travelled through the country or settled there during the period when Muslim countries represented the leading edge of world civilization. It is these Muslims, ethnically indistinguishable from the rest of the Chinese but with a very distinct cultural and religious tradition that has developed over centuries, which has been studiously maintained despite the aggressive atheism of the communist period, that are known as the Hui, while the non-Muslim Chinese are known as the Han.

Michael Dillon, a lecturer at Durham University in Britain, is an established student of the Hui Muslims. His 1996 book China`s Muslims, part of the Oxford University Press `Images of Asia` series, is an excellent short book on the subject. (The pictures with this review are taken from it.) His new book China`s Muslim Hui Community, pulls together much of what other writer`s have discovered about the Hui, with his own research.

The main section of the book traces the history of the Hui from the earliest days of Islam in China, to the present day. Unlike some writers on the subject, Dillon emphasises the importance of settlement in the origins of the Hui ahead of the conversion. He links the migration of early Muslims from Persia and Central Asia to earlier migrations by pre-Islamic peoples, which seems tenuous. He emphasises also the importance of the Ming period (1368-1644) for the emergence of the Hui as a permanent community rather than an immigrant one, and traces the stories of key early Muslim leaders, many of them warriors who helped the rise of Ming rule.

Dillon also continues his survey through Manchu rule and into the present century, tracing the changing role of the Hui in society and, in particular, the emergence of Sufism. He has a detailed chapter on the Hui `insurrections` in the nineteenth century, through which Muslims tried to establish Islamic rule in key areas. These jihad movements, which lasted for decades and established functioning states in parts of China, were brutally suppressed, with the Muslims virtually exterminated in many areas. However, Dillon does not elaborate on the impact this had on the Hui, focusing instead on individual experiences and episodes rather than the larger picture. The same is true of his discussion of the present century.

The second main section focuses on Sufi orders in China, and is informative and detailed; however, Dillon`s knowledge of China is not matched by his knowledge of Islam; hence errors such the statement that the word `Salafiyya` derives from the Arabic `sharif`. Despite the obvious breadth of Dillon`s research, such errors raise doubts.

This book is a useful survey on a subject which few people know very much about. This compensates for its shortcomings. Muslim readers will find much of it informative and fascinating, but it should not be taken as authoritative. However, t he sad and unavoidable fact is that Muslims have no place else to go for such knowledge at this time.

Muslimedia: February 1-15, 2000

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YEH HAI HINDUIA!

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A gift from the gods: bottled cow`s urine

By Julian West in New Delhi

(Filed: 02/09/2001)

HINDU nationalists in India have launched a marketing exercise to promote cow`s urine as a health cure for ailments ranging from liver disease to obesity and even cancer.

The urine, which is being sold under the label ``Gift of the Cow``, is being enthusiastically promoted by the government of Gujarat, one of three states in India dominated by Hindu nationalists.

The urine is collected daily from almost 600 shelters for rescued and wounded cattle set up by the Vishwa Hindu Parisad (VHP), or World Council of Holy men, as part of a government cow-protection programme to save the country`s sacred, but often maltreated, beasts.

Advertised as being ``sterilised and completely fresh`` it is available for 20 rupees (30p) a bottle at about 50 centres run by the VHP in Gujerat, from 200 of their outlets in neighbouring Madhya Pradesh, and at fairs and religious festivals throughout India.

It also comes in tablets or a cream mixed with other traditional medicinal herbs. Demand is currently outstripping supply.

Dr Jadi Patel at the VHP`s headquarters in Ahmedabad said: ``It`s very popular because the results are very good, but we`ve got a shortage.`` He explained that the cow protection centres had been formed after the last grand gathering of saddhus, or holy men, to save cows from ``unofficial slaughter by Muslims``.

Killing cows is illegal in most Indian states but there are an estimated 32,000 illegal abattoirs and 13.7 million cows are believed to be slaughtered by Muslims for the leather industry.

Animal rights activists in India also claim that the doe-eyed, hump-backed white Brahma cattle that are to be found on almost every Indian street are subjected to various abuses, including forced pregnancies to produce more milk.

The cow protection commission was set up to protect the holy cows, and research conducted by doctors involved in the project revealed that the cows` urine had medicinal properties.

The idea of using it came from the central Indian headquarters of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the powerful Hindu nationalist ideologues behind the country`s Bharata Janata Party (BJP), where five scientists are researching its beneficial effects.

Like all devout Hindus, RSS members believe that all cow products are sacred. Ghee, or clarified butter, is used in Indian cooking and to light lamps during temple ceremonies, and milk is commonly poured over sacred idols as an offering.

The healing properties of cow dung and cow`s urine are also mentioned in ancient Hindu texts. The research conducted by doctors at the cow-protection commission indicates that the urine can cure anything from skin diseases, kidney and liver ailments to obesity and heart ailments.

Although most Indian doctors view the medicines as eccentric, several advocates of the treatment have come forward in Gujarat, have come forward to support the doctors` claims.

They include Vidhyaben Mehta, a 65-year-old woman with a cancerous tumour on her chest who has been taking cow`s urine for the past three years. She says she is no longer in pain and has survived in spite of medical predictions that she would die two years ago.

So enthusiastic is the Gujarat government about its cows` urine medicines that it has asked the Indian Institute of Management to compile a database of traditional cures and verify the Hindu nationalists` findings.

The academics have also discovered that cow`s urine is an extremely effective pesticide and plant fertiliser and are now developing for human consumption new drugs that contain the ``gift of the cow``.

Prof Anil Gupta at the institute said: ``This isn`t just a religious thing. If it`s useful we shouldn`t stop it simply because we think it has religious connections.``

© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2001.

A primer for the yelping puppies of the running lapdogs/b-itches of British babboons

The plundering English

The English occupied the country for too many years. And dominated the Indians politically and economically. Coming in as traders and worming their way inland by trickery and bribery. Splitting any semblance of a united Indian front with treacherous deals, double crosses and back stabbing. Deals cooked to suit the situation. And deals made to be broken. Clever predators, those English. Is it because they eat so much pork that they have behaved like pigs in all the English colonies? And oh so arrogant! Soon they became the `sahibs` of the `raj`, flagrantly strutting like school-yard bullies in a country known for its hospitality and peace loving people. Belittling the social status of Indians and trampling on their dignity.

Mainly because the Indians let it happen. The moment the English started behaving like unwelcome guests, they ought to have received a swift kick in the balls followed by a hard kick in their behind to send them back all the way to London. Instead, most little kingdoms, petty in size and even more petty in thinking, took an appeasing stance and gave in to English occupying forces. The English parasites feasted for many decades until Mahatma Gandhi and others helped ignite a movement called `quit India` and achieved independence in 1947.

Very recently the English got another hard kick in their behind sending them all the way from Hong Kong to London. The next one ought to kick them out from the Malvinas islands in Argentina. And stay away from Northern Ireland - don`t they see the name of the country is `Ireland` to be run, logically, by the Irish?

``But you know``, says a retired senior Indian government officer, ``the English modernized this country. They left behind a decent network of railways in India.``

Reminds me of a young, beautiful woman who was held captive for a long time and repeatedly raped and humiliated by a powerful stranger from a distant land. When he finally left, she was heard saying, ``But you know, he gave me this pretty little bracelet.``

Yasser (#95):

Thanks for the reply. But I am afraid I do not agree. Just how many Indians blame Pakistan for their ills? They might rue the Partition, but we certainly don`t feel you people left us in the lurch. Don`t forget most Indian Muslims made that choice to stay back, even if the reasons were economic rather than ideological.

Besides, during crises, I do not see many Indian Muslim organisations calling out to Pakistan to come to their rescue, because honestly that would spoil our case.

As for the Indian Muslim secularist and your admiration for them, I would say some of them are as bad as any fundamentalist. Which is why I am wary of such labels; I would prefer practising it in my daily life.

Anyhow, from your reply I at least get a sense of how some people do in fact think. Itne bure nahin hai hum!

Regards,

Farzana

Subroto (#98):

[So forget about the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, any community that makes such fantastic biryani (and other yummies) has got to be smiling.]

Yes, very satiated, but there are culinary duds only we are capable of. Can you imagine a kele ka saalan made of RIPE bananas, coconut and caramelised sugar eaten with chappatis? This is an Aga Khani speciality, and we are supposed to smile while eating it. I`ll trade the kalash sandesh for it any day...or even the jaal moodi without the kaala teil.

Farzana

a great artcile. Agha khani phenomenon has always bedazzled me in a strange way. I have had many Agha khani friends, all liberal and educated. One recently converted to sunni, even though he and his family were helped a lot by Agha khan group when his father died. After conversion they were made outcast, understandably.

One more thing that looks weird to me that only shias and Qadianis r made the target of sectarian violence, even though Agha Khanis have more weird and different views from sunnis. To me, the reasons may be:

1. Agha khanis r very influential ppl, so often state-sponsored sectarian terrorism in pakistan, did not target them.

2. Agha khanis r very introvert ppl. No azaan on loudspeakers, no imam on TV, etc. They keep very low profile. Nobody knows what goes inside jamaat khana. Even my Agha khani friends were always shy to tell me that. Only ur artcile has elaborated it for me. thanks.

Am I the only one who wants to kill progressive?

These stupid, illiterate, deaf, dumb and blind mufukkas. Tell me where u live, Im gonna fly over to ur house and beat u with a quran...