The Aga Khani

# 238 or #248

How refreshing and how original.

There will always be so-called ``true`` muslims who follow the ``peace-loving`` faith , and then you have the riff-raff who are nothing but the foot soldiers who are and will continue to present their message in their own inimitable way.

No amount of sophistry can hide the hydra headed monster.

Yasmean can do the world a real favor by walking into those Saudi schools as well as Saudi funded schools elsewhere and make them see light.

Harpeet,

Is that your short story on a Brit. fiction website? Its quite good! I believe you should post the web address of this site so other Chowkies can read it....

regards

I have had many personal differences with tahmed321 and some of them very violent, but nowhere is skewness of Indian mentality more visible then when an Indian Hindu fanatic calls tahmed a Mullah.

harimau #208

“I hate to disillusion you but the fact is, anytime there is a killing of a minority group, it is sponsored/sanctioned by the authorities.”

….first of all, i hold no illusions about the gov’t or otherwise….the sad state of affairs today speak for themselves….what i was saying is that, imho, i really think that the higher echelons of power aren’t colluding with these terrorists….call it an illusion, delusion or whatever…

“When the Shia killers are apprehended, tried, convicted and punished -- every last one of them –“

….that’d be great…but we are talking about pak. here…



“and the killings stop, then you can say there is no complicity by the state apparatus in the killings of Shias in Pakistan.”



….no one can stop ppl from killing, unfortunately….but i agree…the pak. gov’t can do more to prevent these killings…

Reply InYourFace # 233

“O Bhai Saab, Zara Hallu!”

:-)

ok.

*coughs embarrassedly *

I guess I was somewhat in your face with that.

I have taken all you said on board. I’m in the midst of another discussion (elsewhere) about how people have to put themselves in “the other”s shoes – clearly I have failed to do that with you.

For this please accept my apology.

I do agree that Godhra should be discussed, and understood, in order to ensure that this kind of violence does not occur again. (Exactly as Gujarat is currently being discussed. Yes.)

Here are just a few thoughts on why this is not happening – I would be curious to know if you agree with my assessment of why it isn’t happening, and if you do, what do you think we could do to overcome the problem. Also why people are approaching the two differently – and whether this is justified or not.

There is no significant body of opinion in India which buys into the theory that because Kar Sevaks misbehaved with Muslim vendors at Godhra station (an allegation which is partly backed up by interviews with some of the affected vendors, but which remains pretty unclear) the violence at Godhra was justified in any way.

There may have been some opinions like this floated immediately after the massacre, but they have received no support, from the public or from “Muslim spokespeople”, and they are not even presented any more.

In fact there seems to be a consensus on Godhra: it was a crime, the people responsible for it should be caught and prosecuted to fullest extent of the law. And that is, in fact, what is happening. (There is some question about whether the violence was spontaneous, organised, planned…but essentially we are agreed, as a country, on what approach to take to the incident, and how we have defined Godhra, and who are the bad guys. Right? There is even a growing feeling that the curriculum of madrassahs may have contributed to the blind hatred that enabled criminals to set a rail bogey alight with people inside it, and that the Government has to step in and oversee madrassahs – which it has started to do, notably in West Bengal, which I think is a long overdue step – check Taliban if wondering why.)

What is left to urgently debate and decide, if these basics have been agreed on? This is no disrespect to the people who lost their lives in Godhra, but an honest question. (I think there is stuff to sort out.) Especially as the nation’s attention is engaged in another discussion whose outcomes have not yet been decided to the satisfaction of a critical mass of stakeholders, and urgency in these matters is relative. (Again, NO disrespect meant to the dead of Godhra, nor is it my intention to minimise the importance of dealing with the forces which caused those deaths.)

Because there IS a significant body of opinion (or at least of powerful people) who clearly state that Gujarat was a spontaneous public reaction to Godhra, and there is another body of opinion that holds that Gujarat was preplanned and spearheaded by parivari organisations with the complicity (if not participation) of the State Government. And one set of opinion-holders has the power to promote its view in the governmental and legal arena, while the other set does not, but is well represented in the English Language Media and the professional urban classes. Many of us may well feel that we know the truth, but there is no consensus in the country on how this truth (which truth) is going to be acted on – we may have opinions, but there is still struggle over defining, just for a start:

1 What exactly happened. We haven’t even agreed on how many people have been killed.

2 Who was responsible?

3 Who were the victims?

And the struggle over assigning responsibility is made even harder by the fact that a State Government stands among the accused, but also among the accusers, and certainly among those who are “responding the situation”, (eg misregistering FIRs?) which (as you know) is not yet peaceful. (I haven`t even gone into the political aspects of the similarities to the anti-Sikh pogrom in 1984...)

So yes, the issues Godhra raised (religious bigotry, police incompetence, violence) must be discussed, but right now I the issues brought up by Gujarat (religious bigotry, Government complicity in crimes and the implications for politics and Governance across India, the role of organised crime, the sheer volume of deaths and violence, and most important, the fact that it is continuing, that it is not over) areovershadowing them. (I am not implying that there is no violence by Muslims against Hindus at present. there is, but I think the dynamics of it are not the same as that at Godhra, although perhaps some of the issues are the same?)

I don’t know what we can (or should) do about it, except to include Godhra in all comments and discussions of religious bigotry and violence, so that it doesn’t become a “Hindu-bashing” exercise. I can see your sensitivity to this – truly, it was not my intent to insinuate that one “side” is better than the “other”. Or rather, one side IS better than the other, and the better side I am talking about has both Hindus and Muslims (oh and anybody else who fits) on it, and is the side of people who are not bigots.

Your ideas welcome.

“ONE FINAL THING: If you don’t agree with me or don’t understand me, ask me but don’t call me a ‘Hindutvavadi’. If you do I may have to k1ll a Muslim like you to prove that I am not a Hindutvavadi.”

Wokay swami.

“PS: Are you familiar with “Tarun Bharath Sangh”? They are fascinating.”

No I’m not. More info?

Regards, and hope that you got through this post.

There are many idiots who baldly say `there was no state complicity` and often go unchallenged. Can posters pl. post here authoritative press/other reports they know of, which explicitly talk of state complicity at different levels.

Let me begin:
http://hrw.org/press/2002/04/gujarat.htm
http://hrw.org/reports/2002/india/

“We Have No Orders To Save You”
State Participation and Complicity in Communal Violence in Gujarat

http://www.outlookindia.com/specialfeaturem.asp?fodname=20020411&fname=chenoy&sid=1
Gujarat Carnage 2002
A Report To the Nation by An Independent Fact Finding Mission

http://www.outlookindia.com/specialfeaturem.asp?fodname=20020502&fname=women&sid=1
How has the Gujarat Massacre affected minority women - Fact-finding by a Womenís Panel

``IMO, the incident was sparked by the deepfelt grassroots sense of isolation and exclusion felt/percieved between the Hindu and Muslim communities` political goals, symbolized by the support for Ram mandir among Hindus and the Muslim community`s grievance about the Babri mosque.``

To those who wanted to discuss Godhara along with Gujarat.

IMO, the incident was sparked by the deepfelt grassroots sense of isolation and exclusivity felt/percieved between the Hindu community`s political goals, symbolized by the support for Ram mandir among Hindus and the Muslim community`s grievance about the Babri mosque.

There were just not enough political outreach and bridges built between communities vocalised at all levels of national discourse for a public sense that a consensus solution was possible.

Those who attacked the train in Godhara(and quite a few who were travelling on that train) were those who had mentally written off the opposite community as being anything but either-you-or-me adversaries. Both sides were only acting out in real life, adversarial sentiments which national-level public figures have had no compunction in vocalising for political purposes whether in Parliament or in election campaigns or when issues like the VHP shilanyas crop up.

But the lack of political outreach at all levels across religious lines for the resolution of contentious issues is only one aspect of the Hindu-Muslim issue.

Even in noncontentious issues like health and education, Hindu and Muslim leaders are responsible for allowing the marginalization of sections of the Muslim community:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/apr/20inter.htm

``..You see, ours is a democratic country. If somebody wants to study there is no dearth of facilities. If he can successfully compete in examinations, he can become an administrator, a doctor, engineer, lawyer.

The opportunities are there. The Muslims have to realise that since they are lagging behind their other brothers, they have to make cogent efforts to improve their lot. This realisation has to come. But it is also the duty of other communities, including the majority community, to ensure that their Muslim compatriots come out of the dire straits.

The Muslims should march at a galloping pace to catch up with their brothers. They must enjoy the blessings of education. Only then will they see the light...``


On health and the WHO campaign against polio.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/10/health/10SWIS.html

``...Another is India, the world`s hardest-hit country. Two recent outbreaks in other countries were traced to India, where in the northern area as many as 75 percent of Muslim children under 2 have yet to receive polio vaccine, Dr. Aylward said.

Although the polio extermination campaign reached 575 million children in 94 countries last year, Dr. Aylward said, there are geographic and worrisome demographic pockets of unvaccinated children like those in northern India. He also cited other geographic ``holes,`` one around the Somali capital, Mogadishu, and another in eastern Angola, where conflicts had prevented comprehensive inoculation programs...``


In India, there is always a blitz media campaign to publicise the polio immunization drive, with actors and public figures like Shahrukh Khan, Madhuri Dixit making repeated appeals on television, radio publicity, street plays, flyers in all public places etc. All you have to do is bring your child. A special campaign was even held for UP because of the higher incidence of cases there.

I cannot believe as some are sure to say, that the Muslim children mentioned above were brought to the incoluation centres but were deliberately refused inoculation. Perhaps the children were not brought to the centres at all and the question is why? Whatever the answer is, this is a failure of all Indians, not just of those Muslim parents.

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Dost-Mittar, Prem and others interested

This is an excellent and spine chilling essay by Amitav Ghosh. I believe that we have reached a point in Indian history where if there is equivocation instead of action at this moment, the consequences for the future are well and truly bleak. India is cancer ridden.

[ESSAY

In The Reign Of The Headless Horse

Disband the Sangh parivar`s extra-governmental militias, or we could be heading the way of Zia-ul-Haq`s Pakistan.



AMITAV GHOSH

The recent carnage in Gujarat is not just a fresh chapter in the subcontinent`s annals of horror: it may well prove to be the prologue to horrors yet-un dreamt-of]

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20020513&fname=Column+Amitav+Gosh+%28F%29&sid=1

-h-

Tmullah321 #212:

You are just pissed that I was the one of the first one who dragged you out of the mullah closet. Does sun light affect the generation time of lice in your beard? Seems like it reduces the genernation time (hence more lice) ... is that why you are itching for a fight?



I challenge you to show me one post by me where I insulted Pakistanis in general? Now, go scratch.

Reply Banjaara # 225

What to do boss?

:-(

Farz hai.

Harpreet:

My dream is being shattered in Gujrath. I am groping in the dark to stop it.

Zafar Al-Talib # 205:

“What is hard to understand is the level of ongoing support and “understanding” that these people continue to receive from otherwise normal Hindus and Muslims.”

Exactly! Why do you think average people are reacting that way? In my opinion, one reason is general lack of trust among different groups of people. In this atmosphere, leaders (and average people) have to be extra careful about what they say. My example of Imam Bhukari’s comments about breaking India into pieces were used in this context and not as “some innuendo about Indian Muslims”. Similarly, ABV’s comments in Goa were anti-national and downright stupid, as were the comments by that VHP guy about Muslims eating beef. People are feeding off each other’s hatred … They did this … We did that. Now hope you understand why I said your responses to Tvarad’s left room for blame game? BTW. Tvarad’s comments were supremacist in nature and I reject completely.

There is hardly any thing I disagree with you with respect to Gujrath. However, if you are saying that there SHOULD NOT be any connection between Godhra and Gujrath (if only we had any effective governance), I think you are being idealistic and naïve. Average Indians already made that connection whether we like it or not. These sort of CONNECTIONS between events is a fact of life…. “Israeli occupation  Suicide bombers  Jenin camp atrocities” or “Rodney King  LA riots” or “Partition  Riots” etc. And in this case …Gujrath  Godhra  Shilanyas/Kashmir/Masjid destruction/Bombay Blasts/Rath Yatra Fiery speeches in maidans and masjids. Ideally, these events SHOULD NOT BE connected and in that respect we have been failing ‘Agnipariksh’ … each and every one of them.

I am practical and I don’t expect general outcry by ALL Hindus/Muslims about any atrocity… obviously some of them are perpetrators. I am sorry to say this but your comments about lack of general outcry by ALL the Hindus or comments about each and every Muslim condemning Godhra are highly subjective and potentially lead to a cycle of blame game. My response was how I wished your response should have been to Tvarad.



“What stuns me is that there are still some Hindus who try and explain away ALL EVIDENCE of Government/VHP complicity in anti-Muslim violence in Gujrath, and stick to the line that it was a “natural reaction” to Godhra by the majority community. They may well throw in a line on how they do not condone the violence, but the explanations they offer do EXACTLY THAT. What is going on in their heads?”

(Cycle starts again). Me too. And I was stunned too when articles in Washington Post and several Indian newspapers tried to explain away Godhra as a response to provocation by bajrang Dali thugs and as a reaction to “Shilanyas”. I am raising this point not as a debating point. I was truly angry at that article and a Hindu wrote it. Similar theory was converted into fact by one of the top British daily (I think Independent). My point is we should expect answers for each and every event however uncomfortable they are. The reason we are failing Agnipariksh is Hindus (some Muslims too) are expecting answers only for Godhra and Muslims (many many Hindus) are expecting answers only for Gujrath.

{“Re: Godhra.

“…was there a general outcry by ALL the Muslims about Godhra?”

Dude, that`s my point. Re: Godhra, I think the vast majority of Muslims DID condemn it, and made their views known, but re: WTC, I think there is still a segment which thinks Muslims didn`t do it...

“How can you assure me that there is introspection among Muslims regarding Godhra?”

Have you been around chowk? Have you read any of the discussions on Godhra? Have any posts by Muslims even suggested that they were not appalled by that? What makes you think there hasn’t been any? “}

Zafar Bhai! I raised those questions to remind you the subjective nature of your observations such as “ALL Hindus” or “Introspection among Hindus”. I guarantee you that Hindus and Muslims are equally introspective.

“Arre vaah! And your point is? Some inuendo about Indian Muslims? Some statement about Bukhari? Some statement about India? Any particular way you would like me to react to that (unsubstantiated) claim you made? Should I just shut up? No, sorry, I won’t.”

You are making a mountain out of molehill. I never meant any of those things. Only thing I am guilty of is not presenting the complete context for Bhukari’s utterance.

{“Come to think of it, majority of Hindus (outside of Gujurat) and ALL the Muslims on this planet are talking about Gujurat and it seems like ALL the Muslims pretend like Godhra never happened.”

It must be very hard for some people when their simplistic claims of all Indian Muslims always being violent against unceasingly peaceful and non-violent Indian Hindus have been so bloodily exposed as rubbish by members of their own team. (Hindutvawadis, NOT Hindus.)}

O Bhai Saab, Zara Hallu! You got all that from my statement. Forget Chowk. Have you been reading Indian newspapers? Everybody is talking about Gujrath (which is very good) but I feel there is little debate about Godhra (which is very bad). In my opinion debate (not the blame game) leads to solutions. Sooner or later Modi will fade off, BJP will be out of power but what do you think will happen to Godhra criminals? Nothing, based on the comptency of our govt. After that, all you need is one more Godhra and we will all be saying `jai Ramji Ki`. That`s why I hope we Indians should talk about pograms and Godhras.

ONE FINAL THING: If you don’t agree with me or don’t understand me, ask me but don’t call me a ‘Hindutvavadi’. If you do I may have to k1ll a Muslim like you to prove that I am not a Hindutvavadi.

PS: Are you familiar with “Tarun Bharath Sangh”? They are fascinating.

Good luck to you.

Dost-Mitter # 228


.......or the freedom fighters.

re: sigalph235 # 230

On the money. It is pathetic to see what is happening to Hinduism. The moment I hear anyone talk of Hindu brotherhood now, I know the plague coming.