The Aga Khani

re the RSS`

````It`s not a religion, but a way of life.``

That same nonsensical line has been the mainstay of agitated, born-again Muslims everywhere. WHat the RSS and VHP is doing is copying the Muslim absolutism and giving back 110 % of ideological garbage in return. Hinduism is one of the most arcane and bizarre religious systems that can be conceived; but let`s face the fact that, apart from Buddhism, it has been far more tolerant than any other major religious belief in the world. No jehads, no `my way or highway`, no darul harb/darul hinduism baloney. That is until the 1930s when the RSSS (now RSS) and Mahasabha learnt the art of absolutism well enough from traditional Islam and Roman Christianity to teach them (the Muslims and Catholics) a thing or two about ideological genteel (or not so genteel) bigotry.

re: AAmir

{It would help if you had given the URL or source of your opinion.}

...you want a URL for my opinion?...if you mean the source of the letter, it was The Friday Times...

{Not that it will be more credible b/c personaly i believe you b/c there are many muslim & nonmuslims Male & Females dont think it is fair.

But isnt the common saying about life itself is ``LIFE IS NOT FAIR`` ? And then how big of UNFAIRNESS is it ...when such incidents are ,Very v.rare, of muslim men taking advantage of it .}

...sorry, i can`t decode what you`re trying to say...

India`s Muslim-Hindu divide threatens Gandhi`s secular, peaceful vision

Wed May 1, 9:18 PM ET

By BETH DUFF-BROWN, Associated Press Writer

AHMADABAD, India - Mohandas Gandhi`s wooden spinning wheel still stands among the simple throw pillows where he once sat cross-legged, threading cotton, receiving world leaders and promoting his vision of a unified, secular India.



Today, just beyond the whitewashed cottages of the independence leader`s ashram, across a dry riverbed where sacred cows graze under the searing subcontinent sun, Muslims and Hindus have turned on one another with a ferocity not seen in a decade.

The handful of elderly men who live among the lush gardens at Gandhi Ashram can see the smoke from burning homes and stores. Police sirens disturb their daily prayers.

The violence in Gujarat, Gandhi`s home state where he founded his ashram, has claimed more than 900 lives statewide in the last two months, mostly Muslims beaten or burned to death, or killed in police firing. Human rights activists say the death toll may come closer to 2,000 when one counts the missing in the western state.

Gandhi, revered by his followers as mahatma or ``great soul,`` the man who led his people to independence from the British Empire, once wrote that ``Hindu-Muslim cooperation is our inevitable condition for Indian freedom,`` and several times he threatened to starve himself to shame his people into halting their feuds.

``Gandhi would have been very sad, he would have fasted to his death to stop all this,`` said Chunibhai Vaidya, an 84-year-old Gandhi disciple who lives at the ashram.

``But we have failed Gandhi, we have forgotten him, we have betrayed him.``

___

And yet, in many ways, the vision that Gandhi promoted until his assassination by a Hindu fanatic in 1948 is still alive.

A vibrant if sometimes messy democracy, a federal system and a constitution steeped in secular values allow India`s 120 million Muslims to live in relative peace among nearly 1 billion Hindus.

There are many more examples of harmony than hatred among those Hindus and Muslims who live side by side in thousands of villages throughout rural India and in its massive metropolises.

Muslims serve as judges and lawmakers. India`s richest man, Aziz Premji, chairman of the software giant, Wipro, is Muslim. Two of India`s presidents have been Muslims. One, Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed, was a Muslim from the northeastern state of Assam.

Assam, where 30 percent of the 26 million people are Muslim, is an example of the coexistence that is the norm for much of India. It is symbolized by the door on a Hindu temple in Gauhati, the capital, on which is a plaque commemorating Usman Ali, the Muslim who donated the land for the temple.

``We all believe that God is one. When Usman Ali donated the plot of land, I`m sure he had no idea of the significance of his gesture,`` said Manmohan Das, the Hindu secretary of the temple. ``Here, we are all living together in spite of the communal upsurge elsewhere in India.``

Most Muslims in India think of themselves as Indians first, Muslims second. Muslims and Hindus marry each other, go into business together, play together for India`s national cricket team.

India`s most popular movie stars are Muslims: Aamir Khan, whose colonial cricket epic ``Lagaan`` was nominated for an Academy Award this year, Shah Rukh Khan and Salman Khan. They`re known as the ``the Khan Brigade.``

Aamir Khan and Shah Rukh Khan are married to Hindu women. And Hindu heartthrob Hrithik Roshan`s wife is Muslim.

When Virsing Rathod heard the screams of his Muslim neighbors being burned alive during the first night of the riots in Ahmadabad, the burly Hindu and his two sons jumped in a truck, rammed their way through a Hindu mob and began pulling Muslims from the flames. They saved 25 Muslims that night and sheltered dozens more in safe houses.

``I did it out of humanity, because in my heart I knew it was the right thing to do,`` said Rathod.

Across the country in Calcutta live Srabani Das, a Hindu, and her Muslim husband, Naseer Khan.

``Never for a moment in our nine years of married life was there any tension because of religion,`` said Das.

``Naseer never asked me to change my religion. I still write my Hindu surname and he never interferes with my Hindu way of life,`` she said. ``We have friendly tiffs and we try to find the loopholes in each other`s religion and even cut jokes.``

Das said their 7-year-old daughter, Karishma — a neutral name that could be either Hindu or Muslim — helps put things in perspective.

``Our daughter is the binding glue. She has a Muslim father, a Hindu mother and a Christian-English schooling,`` Das said. ``I think when my daughter Karishma grows up, she will be a truly secular person.``

___

That sort of talk disgusts Hindu-fundamentalist ``kar sevaks,`` religious volunteers who dedicate themselves to promoting Hindu purity and preventing Hindu-Muslim marriages or conversions.

``Everyone living in India is a Hindu,`` says K.C. Sudarshan, head of the hard-line National Volunteer Corps. ``It`s not a religion, but a way of life.``

The religious divide dates back to the Muslim Moguls who invaded in the eighth century. Independence was born in the blood of 1 million killed when the subcontinent was partitioned into Hindu India and Muslim Pakistan in 1947. Frequent spasms of communal violence have followed, India and Pakistan have fought three wars and, now nuclear-armed, are spoiling for a fourth.

As more countries in the region took on a deeper Islamic hue, Hindu fundamentalism began to well up in India. The religious friction was hugely exacerbated in 1992, when Hindus tore down a 16th-century mosque at Ayodhya, claiming it was built on the birthplace of their supreme god Rama. Subsequent rioting left more than 2,000 people dead nationwide.

By the late 1990s the Congress party, standard-bearer of the Gandhi ethos and the ruling party for much of India`s post-independence history, was out of office and a coalition led by the Hindu nationalist party of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee was in.

The Gujarat debacle has undone much of the headway Vajpayee`s Bharatiya Janata Party has made in promoting itself as a reform-minded party with moderate views.

The fighting in Gujarat was ignited by a Muslim mob that set fire to a train carrying Hindus returning from a pilgrimage to the Ayodhya shrine, killing 60 of them. Since then more than 1,000 Muslim-owned businesses have been destroyed in retaliatory attacks. Fliers circulating in Ahmadabad, the state`s commercial capital, have called on Hindus to boycott Muslim establishments in an effort to ``break their backbones.``

Gruesome accounts of babies being doused in kerosene and set on fire, and orphaned children left alone to die of their burns, have provoked much soul-searching among Indians.

Mahesh Bhatt, a leading Indian filmmaker whose mother was Muslim and father Hindu, says the violence is a reminder that religious intolerance in India runs deep.

``Whenever you have deluded yourself that you have been freed of the religious biases your forefathers lived with, the poison that flowed in their veins, comes a fierce reminder like this,`` Bhatt said. ``The Indian mind is still shackled to its religious prejudices. Incidents like these just mirror the real soul of India.``

___

Vajpayee has had to walk a thin line between moderates in his 19-member ruling coalition and those who insist ``Hindutva,`` or Hindu-ness, should be a national political platform.

He headed off a potentially deadly showdown last month by deploying police and troops to stop Hindu fundamentalists from flocking to Ayodhya and laying the first stones for a temple on the site of the razed mosque.

Yet most Muslims, as well as many moderate Hindus, believe the revenge rampages after the train fire were orchestrated by powerful Hindu nationalist groups and sanctioned by Gujarat`s governor, Chief Minister Narendra Modi.

Gujarat happens to be the only state run outright by Vajpayee`s party and Modi is a longtime proponent of Hindu supremacy.

A report last week by New York-based Human Rights Watch alleges a cover-up: ``State officials of Gujarat ... were directly involved in the killings of hundreds of Muslims since Feb. 27 and are now engineering a massive cover-up of the state`s role in the violence.``

Hindus comprise 82 percent of India`s people, but the Muslim population is still the world`s largest after Indonesia. The higher Muslim birthrate alarms Hindu fundamentalists, even though Ashish Bose, a leading Hindu demographer, believes their fears of one day being outnumbered are groundless, since the Muslim population has expanded by only 1 percent every 10 years.

The Hindu nationalists accuse the Muslims of looking to Islamic Pakistan as their ideal, and the government is quick to blame Pakistan for everything from the Islamic insurgency in Kashmir (news - web sites) to the drought that plagues northern India.

Any spectacular crime in India is typically linked to Pakistan or Islamic militants. Church bombings two years ago were blamed on Pakistani agents. When the arrests were made, they were all Indian citizens.

``This obsession with Pakistan, the relentless anti-Pakistan talk, has created a lot of hatred in this society and then that gets extended to the minorities here, and that`s the Muslims,`` said Zoya Hasan, a Muslim professor of political science at Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi.

She said the carving up of the subcontinent is yet another thorn, 50 years later.

``A major grievance is the Hindu conception of sacred land, and partition of the sacred geography was the biggest sin,`` Hasan said.

That sacred territory extends to India`s only Muslim majority state, Jammu-Kashmir, the cause of two wars between India and Pakistan. Both sides claim the territory.

Tens of thousands — mostly Muslims — have been killed in a 12-year insurgency by Islamic militants fighting for Kashmir`s independence or merger (news - web sites) with Pakistan. Many of the fighters come from Pakistan and Islamabad offers them moral support.

The Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on the United States, followed by a suicide assault on India`s Parliament building that killed 14 people, have heightened fears that Islamic fundamentalists in India may be sympathetic to Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) and his al-Qaida terrorism network.

A new law passed by Parliament in March gives authorities sweeping powers to detain suspects without charges and try anyone suspected of supporting terrorists. Hindu fundamentalists applaud it; Muslims are fearful the law will only target them.

``The Muslims of this country won`t allow any outsiders to come in and terrorize India,`` said Munir Sheikh, a Muslim state insurance worker in Gujarat who is helping coordinate relief for some 150,000 Muslims made homeless by the violence.

``We love this country and would give our lives for it.``

Harimau: ``Yes, killing is wrong. Saying that ain`t going to stop it.``

Ur not saying ANYTHING. Killing isnt always wrong, but thats besides the point. Ur hindu/Indian, so u side with Hindus/Indians. Such opinions require little or no thinking.

``I am trying to point out how one-sided the entire discussion has been.``

Thats a statement of fact, but WHY? Compare the death tolls, the fact that one side is still continuing its killing (why the hell wouldnt it be discussed more???). Also, this is not much of a ``discussion.`` You`re talking with Muslim/Pakis who side with Muslims/Pakistan. ALL of you are ROBOTS.

``There is no connection. After all, Pakistan has been so lovey-dovey with India for the last 50 years.``

Anyone can be an ``intellectual`` you just have to read books. It is NOT everyone who knows how to focus and utilize her intellect in a wise manner. What the hell does Pakistan have to do with whats being discussed? It seems yall are so damn one dimensional that EVERY subject must include your childish, stupid and ignorant fascination with who`s country is the best. How old are you?

Zafar Al-Talib # 168,184,204,205

Bak raha huN junooN mein kya kya maiN

kuch na samjhe khuda karay koee

or better still

`` Jin pay takiya tha vohi pattay hava dene lagay``

With best wishes,

#220 tvarad

In a secular state, hindus don`t take on ``their`` thugs and muslims don`t take on ``theirs`` & so on. Civilized people, regardless of their personal beliefs should take on the thugs. It`s this our thugs, their thugs mentality that also quickly leads to `our thugs are more tolerant, we have bridged the gap to modernity`-kind of mentality.

THis is great. Now the Muslims in refugee camps in Ahmadabad who have survived the genocide by Hindus (for now) are gangsters. Yar kujh tay sharam karo.

InYourFace #201 you write ``I hope we Indians will get over this mess (Gujerat) and start talking about rain water harvesting or some such talk.``

Or (in your case and half a dozen other of your colleagues) back to start talking insults about pakistanis or some such talk. Your deep interest in rain water harvesting and other problems of the poor people in India is well-evidenced in your posts and that of your ilk on chowk.

RE: Reply #: 176 tvarad

``The real question for us Hindus is this: we have successfully bridged the gap between the ancient and the modern through so many thinkers from Raja Ram Mohan Roy to Mahatma Gandhi. Muslims are yet to reconcile themselves with the modern age.``

I have thought about the last sentence and I apologize if I offended Muslims at large by the generalization. What I intended to say (as implied in the rest of the article) is that the Muslim leadership and intelligentia has come up severely wanting in terms of leading the Muslim people into the modern age.

My article also alluded to the liberal thought process initiated by Hindu leaders which has defined modern India. But I also realize that there are powerful reactionary forces in Hinduism too who are perfectly willing to take India back into the middle ages in their naked grab for power as evidenced by the happenings in Gujarat. As a progressive Hindu (nominally at that) I believe that India will only move forward with equal rights for all, democracy and live and let live which would make me a pseudo-secularist and a Hindu Kafir in the eyes of the Sangh Parivar.

I need to take them on as much as progressive Muslims need to fight their extremists for self-preservation.

...why many think samuel huntington`s crystal ball is right on...why there will, sadly, be many more gujarats and jenins to come...

...and if we understand this good doctor correctly, ms. mehroz has committed apostasy, and since the penalty for apostasy is death, then...well, you get the idea...

{{Sir,

I was shocked to read the letter by Yasmin Mehroz “Hindu-Muslim” (TFT April 12-18) regarding Hindu-Muslim marriages. The holy Quran makes two things absolutely clear. First, when a Muslim female marries a non- Muslim male, from that point onwards, she becomes apostate. Secondly, a Muslim male may marry a Christian or Jewish women who is God-fearing and of good character. But even a Muslim male is not allowed to have a polytheist spouse.

So, regrettably, Yasmin Mehroz, though she has a name which sounds Muslim, is not actually a Muslim any longer.

Whatever the problems caused by Hindu extremism in Gujarat or the rest of India, Muslims should beware shameful appeasement and this appeasement should definitely not take the form of Muslim women marrying idolators.

Allah will give us the strength to fight our enemies and defend our religion. In the end, our faith and righteousness will prevail.

Dr. Umar Azam,

Manchester}}

Inyourface

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Seriously. Within a day or two of Godhra that criminal act was overshadowed by the rampaging Bajrang Dal mobs. Who is to blame, if at all, for the original murderous act being looked over, due to a pogrom being instituted against innocent Muslims? the VHP and their brownshirts. That is all the more reason why these thugs need to be slapped up, for defiling the memory of the dead of Godhra. Every Muslim I spoke to and saw utterly condemned what happened at Godhra. Quit playing semantic games. Indian society is seriously ill and needs an urgent dose of chemotherapy. Lets not be in denial about this.

Let us not eq

...And the BRAINDEAD masses continue to argue over who has the better country...

Is it possible for all of you to write your ages next to your posts? There`s a part of me whoich refuses to believe that anyone over 25 can be this stupid.

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tvrad

[The real question for us Hindus is this: we have successfully bridged the gap between the ancient and the modern through so many thinkers from Raja Ram Mohan Roy to Mahatma Gandhi. Muslims are yet to reconcile themselves with the modern age]

- This is the kind of lazy smug thinking that has allowed a deeply corrupted polity to be filled with the extremism espoused by the Hindutvaites which culminated with the events in Gujarat. tvrad, first of all, just because other South Asian or Muslim countries are imperfect does not mean we have to make reference to their problems as mitigation against ours.

Secondly, you should know that the acceptance or reconciling of modernity within Hindu society does not preclude a descent into the abyss. Germany had produced Goethe yet still succumbed to Nazism. The enlightenment projects of Europe and USA were founded on the back of the horrors of slavery. It is not good enough to claim that whatever advances we have made as a society, our acceptance of forms of government, a growth of an intellectual life, academia, scientific advances, will of themselves solve our problems. We have to actively fight, struggle and fight again for the betterment of Indian society.

And it is the compact that has been made between these extremist right wing ideologues and SOME of the ``reconciled to modernity`` Hindu bourgeoisie (Not discounting the ``modernity`` of caste warfare, female oppression and so on) that has allowed these psychos to take control of the agenda of Indian politics. The motifs of Hindutva are of a tribalistic and bigoted dispensation, not that of a ``society reconciled to modernity``. It is lazy, lazy thinking. Hindu society needs to take those tools of modernity it has developed and examine itself, rigourously, now.

-h-

re:Reply #: 176

tvarad,

It seems to me that the message of Raja Ram Mohan Roy and Gandhi has been lost on many hindus who still believe in the rule of the jungle. Post-Gujarat carnage, i think we hindus have a long way to go before we can call ourselves civilized.

Sridhar

Ref DRUMZ #: 190

[harimau: Patriotism is the height of idiocy. You defend india and hindus and they defend pakistan and muslims. Yall Bore me to death... Im not gonna bother bringing the intensity to you cuz i deal with THINKERS, people who look at an issue and judge it based on how ``right`` they think it is - not with how closely they are affiliated with the parties.]

Abstract thinking is wonderful for philosophers but we have a saying that you can`t eat the melon you find in a textbook.

Yes, killing is wrong. Saying that ain`t going to stop it.

[Who cares about what is condemned on chowk - Whats your point? Does this solidify anyones point? Then why bring it up?]

I am trying to point out how one-sided the entire discussion has been. I guess that is a little bit too much for your deeply analytical mind to grasp.

[Then u compare it with 1947. Whom are u trying to fool? Whats the connection?

Then u bring in kashmire??? Is this a joke?]

There is no connection. After all, Pakistan has been so lovey-dovey with India for the last 50 years. Why, they even send us aid. Everytime there is a border dispute, Pakistan gives us another 5000 square miles just to keep Indians happy and contented. All of Pakistan`s army is aimed at containing the troublemakers of the subcontinent and they work hand-in-glove with the Indian army to keep peace in the subcontinent.

[Your fukkin with DRUMZ, not ya college professor. Jesus, the intellectual capacity of this site...]

Yes, DRUMZ the Great Intellectual.

Yaaaaawn!