Another One Bites The Dust

samina shah:

YLH is completely out of line with the name calling. And no, his youth cannot excuse the obnoxiousness. To that extent, you`ve (hopefully) put him in his place.

OTOH, why is it that you keep suggesting that it is not for males to comment on the methods and persuasions of feminism? I would have thought that ANY worthy philosophy would be complelty to critique from ANY quarters. (Your point on pluralism within the feminist movement is taken, but it is difficult to see why one may not agree with some strains and disagree (even vehemently) with others. That is personal choice, is it not?)

Ok, now call me a sucker for detail, but when you ask whether ``...if her opinions differ from yours, she is a female dog, because her experience and opinion differs from yours, she is a ``liar``?``, i must say there`s a strawman there. ``Liar`` may be harsh word in America, but pray tell how else you would describe the teller of a falsehood. Whether dance is prohibited by law in Pakistan or whether it`s allowed is not a matter of `opinion` at all. It`s pure fact, and I`m afraid, if Ms Kirmani made the statement Yasser says she did, she was LYING on that occassion. It is unimaginable that she is not aware of the law. (At best it would be safe to say that (women) dancing is highly discouraged in Pakistan)

Ok.. now I`m beginning to sound like a lawyer (astagfirullah!!)

ylh: btw, there may not be a `law` against women dancing in Pakistan, but bud, given the nature of `law` enforcement on the issue, there may as well be. Kya khayal hai?

So, now asking to be spared having to scroll through obnoxioious (or just plain silly) posts is being equated with the death sentence.

Wonderful! Anyone know what the average IQ of the simians happens ot be? Urstruly, you wanna step up?

Battles of Identity,

In my opinion the issue of identity is wholely an expatriate one in my opinion and perhaps the most visible in the Pakistanis abroad. Some choose underscore their common religious bonds, and embrace their Islamic identity. Others stress similar cultures, and or their conceptions thereof, and identify themselves as South Asians. Then there is a group that sees itself uniquely Pakistani. My purpose is not to debate the intellectual veracity of these positions, but rather put forth my own point of view which has taken quite beating owing to lack of understanding coupled with the old monsters of hate and prejudice.

I consider Pakistan as my only identity, not because of any particular reason, but because I choose to. No nationalist mythology, linguistic grouping or religious justification for it, but simply because I was born and raised in Pakistan, and have grown up as a Pakistani, because my flag was green and white and my Passport said the `Islamic Republic of Pakistan` (though I don`t necessarily agree with the idea of the `Islamic` Republic). I don`t believe in beligerant nationalism, but I do believe in Patriotism. I believe that the people of Pakistan have suffered long enough under unsavory regimes which have constantly sought to limit their potential and make them into mindless and obedient slaves. Therefore, I have made the decision of returning to Pakistan and putting my education to good use there. Pakistanis are not the step children of god, that whoever they pay for their sweat to get educated abroad abandons them.

This conception of identity, concern for Pakistan first and foremost has brought me into trouble with various different groups and as if they had nothing better to do, they have chosen to gang up on myself and many like me. We are forced to take this line or that, we are always either or... either we are supposed to be Muslims, or we have to be South Asian. There is no denying that We, the Pakistani patriots (or `belligerant nationalists` as others characterize us) are actually both. We are Muslim, and we are South Asian, but we are Pakistani before either of those. One would imagine that in this day and age, people would actually grant us courtesy of being what we choose to be. But no.

Turkey may have invented a false history to give itself a National identity. Maybe they were right, maybe they were wrong, .. I am not even trying to do that. We don`t have any skeletons to hide. Identities are always imagined concepts. They are never right or wrong.

So be South Asian, be Indian, be whatever you want... but please FOR god`s sake don`t try and impose your self righteousness on others...If I choose to criticize someone for blatantly lying about Pakistan saying `Dancing is banned by Law` why must it always contrued as a belligerant nationalism? How is that inventing some sort of a `National Mythology`.

I happen to agree with Sheema Kirmani on many things:

1) Freedom of speech

2) Freedom of conscience

3) Freedom of Monkey Dance..

I don`t deny the effects of Hinduism on Pakistani culture, I don`t even deny Pakistan`s entire outlook is a mixture of Hinduism and Islam... I don`t deny all of these things.. so how am I inventing a New nationalist mythology by merely pointing out that `Sheema Kirmani lied about Dancing being banned by law in Pakistan?`

I have repeatedly written about Pakistan`s Pre-Islamic Heritage, the importance of Indus Valley Civilization, Pakistan`s Non-Muslim past.. these are absolutely essential to Pakistan`s future! And why must Gandhi-Jinnah debate, in which my only crime is to quote from Dr.Ambedkar`s book be used as some kind of a tool against me? How have I used ever cliche for that debate.. If the World chooses deify a person like Gandhi, why must I not point out the short comings of the Man.. why does it rub people like Samina Shah so badly.. probably because they have no idea!

Please stop assuming things. Have some shame, and in the future try reading what the other person is saying before you make stupid comments.

Thankyou

Yasser

I am Flabbergasted...

Progression of Events on Chowk:

1) Sheema Kirmani made a stupid claim that `Dancing is prohibited by law` in Pakistan, in the NY Times.

2) I pointed out what a stupid liar she is for saying something like this.

3) Samina Shah turned it into a debate on nationalism, and ethnic identity after failing to turn it into a Male vs Female issue.

I wish to ask the following Questions to all these self righteous no good self proclaimed liberals:

1) Where have I stressed the `Muslimness` of the Pakistani Identity?

2) Where have I denied being a `South Asian`?

3) Where have I attacked the Women`s movement?

4) Where have I personally gone and strangled anyone for being against Pakistan or my conception of Pakistan?

5) Where have I killed anyone for not agreeing with me?

I am surrounded by a bunch of self righteous twits! Who don`t have the patience to read the whole thing, but just love assuming nonsense!

Mostly these are expatriates who have no stake in Pakistan, except for ridiculing anyone who loves his country.

`they would have declared us central asian`

Yes please tell me who these are, I wanna know them as well.. Your thinly veiled attack on me, shows that you know nothing about what I stand for. I personally would have declared us European not central asian. Why would I wanna be part of the tatari horde?

All jokes aside, I am a South Asian, but not a South Asianist... just like I am a Muslim but not a Pan-Islamist!

Your defense of blasphemy laws as protecting the “... ideals of the people which they hold dear …” is baseless. Ironically, such laws are in clear conflict with several Quranic verses that I quoted to you on several occasions … on which you remain conveniently silent.

So this is how it works … a person slanders the Prophet (pbuh) … and according to you this person should be killed!

Slandering a religious figure is a sign of jihalat … while laws designed to killing such a jahil indicate barbarism and fanaticism of the lowest kind.

Dear Banjara,

When I was in fourth grade, larkian in our class were taught Kathak the North Indian Classic, and the shows were held in `Ali Auditorium` Lahore.

I have nothing against those who wish to learn this dance form. Infact I have the greatest admiration for Naheed Siddiqui as a person, even if I am not a big fan of `Kathak` you know...

You say:

``I donot think (I may be wrong)that there is any law which bans live dancing in Pakistan including in the Heera Mandi``

Precisely. And that is what the claim of that lying crooked evil woman that it is banned by law... she repeated this claim many times, one time I even countered her at Yale. Infact Sheema Kirmani was the laughing stock of Yale`s Student Body, after she tried to hijack a Pakistan-India peace conference into a vitriolic against Pakistan for `Banning dance`. When asked to show proof of the law, she simply shut up.

Ironically enough she said `Such matters should not be left to popular will` ... So if people don`t want it, why should we have `Monkey dances` anyway?

-YLH

Urstruly well said bhai...

Saminashah,

Ok So now its my age.. lol.. you people are frankly amazing :)

1) Dearest Bibi, I am not the one who started addressing posts to you so don`t start with me. You dragged me into this unnecessarily.

2)You keep saying that I am calling that lying no good pos Sheema Kirmani because `her experiences are different from mine`.. However I have made it expressly clear that even she is free to do whatever she wants, as long as she doesn`t lie about Pakistan...

3) Please show me the Law which Bans dancing from Pakistan as alleged by the Gospel of truth Ms.Kirmani?

If you can`t show me that particular law where it says `Dancing is banned in Pakistan` as alleged by Sheema Kirmani, then I have the right to call her whatever I want to. I am sure you will courteous enough to grant me that won`t ya?

If Sheema Kirmani can go out of her way to say some thing this inaccurate and obviously stupid about Pakistan, I have every right to call her what she really is... No regrets, no apologies, infact I am rather proud of calling her...

``If WAF has anything to say about Kermani`s comments, will a female interactor let me know?``

Please Read Sarwari`s comments. She is a female interactor. But why this apartheid!!!!... I don`t discriminate on the basis of gender, what deep down inferiority complex do you have? Sarwari is right... she emailed me the article ... and I have used a much toned down vocab than she did.

May I also suggest you please shut your trap about `Dysfunctional` nationalism, given that you really don`t know me and given that you are concluding things on the basis of your half hearted interaction with Fawad Malik... I suggest you keep it there...



South Asian-ism vs South Asian identity

Much has been said about `South Asianism` and `South Asian`... As is obvious by the post by Samina Shah addressed to Rsaxena, she has chosen to generalize about the `dysfunctional Pakistani nationalists`....

Ladies and Gentlemen... I am a Human Being first and foremost, I am a Pakistani second, Then I am a South Asian, and finally I am a Muslim ...

So why such agitation against `South Asianism` if I admit to be being a South Asian, and am actually proud of it..? The Question is: What is the difference between a `South Asian` and a `South Asianist`??????? The same difference that is between a Muslim and a Pan-Islamist... I am a Muslim, but I am not a a Pan-Islamist!

No one is denying that we are South Asian. We are South Asian and We are Proud of that. Anyone who says we are middle Eastern or Central Asian is delusional... But South Asian-ism is a disease. This disease is manifested, when somehow we are told that watching a Devotional Monkey dance from Indian Heartland makes us more cultural. That some how the same Devotional Monkey dance is the essence of `tehreek e Niswah`... this is the sign of a diseased mentality... I am going be honest about it...

I`d rather see Pakistani Women be Fighter Pilots, Doctors, Engineers, Politicians, Lawyers, Human Rights Activists, parliamentarians,educationists, supermodels, actoresses, playwrights, fashion designers, mill-workers, mill-owners, businesswomen, writers, political commentators, newscastors, soldiers, sailors, Economists, professors .. you name it... but I am sorry, the Monkeydance devotional mujrah to some ancient mythological god doesn`t really interest me...



I could care less if someone taught this monkey dance to young women in Pakistan.. Indeed they should have the right to do be as stupid as they want, as I should have the right to call them stupid (I solemnly promise, I will fight till the last drop of blood in my body to protect both rights, both their and mine)... but if somehow, this Devotional Monkey Dance FROM The Indian Heartland is a necessity, than I WANT AFRICAN ZULU DANCE as well... and I want BELLE, and I want `Salsa` lessons, and I want Square Dancing, and all forms of dances every where...

Somehow, Punjab`s rich cultural dances, Sindh`s folk songs and dances, Baluchi shaadi songs, NWFP`s pushtun dances never quite attract the new breed of `Liberals` in Pakistan.. it is `bharatya natyaam` which is always the moot point.. this dance which has no basis in Pakistani culture, not atleast as much as the 4 mentioned above,.. somehow, all the forces of liberalism, feminism and secularism in Pakistan has made `Bharatayanatyam` the focal point of their struggle... is it any wonder than that Pakistan today is growing more conservative, more anti-feminist, and more theocratic than ever before?

Our so called liberals, feminists and secularists are too busy fretting over the dearth of good bharataya Natyaam monkeydancers.... instead of worrying about what they really should be worried about...

Whether others here like it or not I consider myself a `secularist`. It is precisely because of this reason, that I am sorry, I am not in favor of replacing the mullah`s azaan 5 times a day with an extremely boring dance performance by some ugly overdone memsahib who claims to be a feminist...! As long as the Mullah sticks to his Azaan, and stays in his mosque, I have no problem tolerating him... but who is going to control the menace of a rampaging monkey dancer? I mean the freak value alone will amount to a lot!

Pakistan`s feminist movement needs Women of Vision... Women like Aisha Sarwari, women like Vaneeza Ahmed, Women like my Mom, Women like My PPP aunts, Women like Asma Jehangir, Women like Maleeha Lodhi, Women like Ayesha Jalal, .. these are the women who can uplift Pakistan and Pakistanis especially women!

I tell you I am very hopeful... There are women today of the calibre of Fatima Jinnah, Raana Liaqat Ali, Begum Shahnawaz etc They are just being overshadowed by fame hungry monkey dancers, but freaks don`t go on for ever!

Long Live Pakistani Women :)

Pakistan Zindabad!

Re: Trillium, #350

``Trillium: OK! OK! OK! Incest is best!``

I posted that article on cousin-marriages for you as a food for thought. But you don`t appear to be smart enough to understand that.

Yes, for some, and maybe you, ``incest is best`` as you say, and that includes everyone around the globe, every race and culture.

PS: Keep your sarcasm to yourself. You`re not really good at it.

YLH,

Please restrain yourself and your sidekick Sarwari.

Dont be angered by the tone of my post.I have suffered your drivel for long.

If one disagrees with the post, engage the poster - presumably whoever is posting desires discussion of the content of the post - or, if one does not wish to discuss, simply ignore it -

It`s not fair on us.

PM

``Hobbyty, if you seriously believe that ``whoever is posting desires discussion of the content``, well, I suppose you`ve got a point (and I`ve got a bridge in Tokyo to sell you).``

Which bridge in Tokyo? - consider, exactly what reason do you have to not operate as if ``give the other the benefit of the doubt`` - My naievte or innocence, or ignorance? OK, show me a picture of the bridge, I never buy something without at least having seen a picture of what it is I`m buying.

``And here`s why your analogy to TV channels is wrong: chowk is a much more `personal` space.``

More personal than the choices one makes with regard to which TV programs one will view in one`s own living room? Perhaps ``personal`` has other definitions I may not be familiar with.

In my opinion, copious amounts of anti-Islam posts appear on Chowk - some consider my post on Islam as anti-Islamic - though I agree, that there is no absolute right to anything and all ``rights`` or ``freedoms`` must have ``limits`` to be meaningful. I was posting some material and it was too long, Temporal and Hamidm, DRUMZ pointed out that the posts were so long that persons were not reading it and therefore the information I wanted people to discuss was simply being overlooked - that it was counter productive.

Honestly - I don`t have a reason to think that Progressive has any reason other than to bring into discussion a point of view he or she thinks ought to be discussed by us. Could he do better? Could the same apply to all of us?

Aisha Sarwari,

My comments are indicated in another post. I think you miss the point when you atttribute my perspective as ``insecure`` feminism; this is a case of someone outside of a gender,(which happens to suffer from inequity) group, discipline and political orientation calling a member of that group a ``bi *ch`` because she didn`t reassure his overly developed sense of nationalism.

This is clearly a problem for many reasons. As for the intensity of my posts to ylh, he`s been ridiculing my belief system for months and has made no attempt to even acknowledge it. How long should I put up with it?

re: saminashah

{I don`t know why I bother....probably because I`ve been trying to ignore stupid arguments for the last 6 months which is impossible when you`ve got SOME people who can`t look past their own feet to see other perspectives on being Pakistani....}

...my mentor was telling me the other day that less than 5% of the people you come across in life matter...the rest are chaff you needn`t worry about...

{I`m sure they`ll have us defined as ``Central Asian`` if they were given half a chance....wait till they find out that ``tharboos`` also means watermelon in Uzbeki...unless you Indians use it as well, but then you got it from us and we are really Central Asian, but not the Buddhist part, the Muslim part...the Muslim Pakistani part that has always been so since time immemorial...}

...let them be whatever they want to be...who cares?...you can be south asian, they can go chase the persians, turks, and arabs, who btw get a kick out of pakitanis following them around...and yes, a watermelon is a tharbooz in india...but only for those of us who speak hindi...

FREE SPEECH AND MONKEYS

I never understood the mind of this so-called enlightened specie among us. On one hand they want censorship be imposed on the speech that counters them, exposes them, and puts them in a tight corner; and on the other hand they want blasphemy laws which are to prevent hurting the ideals of the people which they hold dear more than their lives, repealed- all in the name of free speech and ``enlightenment``.

Lets admit it that you are little people with little monkey brains. You are not driven by principles; what drives you is your little monkey brains; which is capable only of mimicking. Monkey is as monkey does.

Hobbyty:

You write: ``If one disagrees with the post, engage the poster - presumably whoever is posting desires discussion of the content of the post - or, if one does not wish to discuss, simply ignore it - It`s the equivalent of persons complaining that some TV programs are objectionable - therefore everybody else must be subjected to their taste in TV programs - it`s unfair.``

Hobbyty, if you seriously believe that ``whoever is posting desires discussion of the content``, well, I suppose you`ve got a point (and I`ve got a bridge in Tokyo to sell you). And here`s why your analogy to TV channels is wrong: chowk is a much more `personal` space. A more valid analogy would be being deluged by anti-Islam hate mail (wiht copuios amounts of name calling on the envelops). I don`t belive you really believe that is issue is one of free speech and expression. Get wit hit!

You earlier wrote: ``- let`s avoid demands to censor posts that offer ideas that should be discussed, debated.``

Yes, you`re absolutely right! By the same token, let`s be spared the posts (if for no other reason, simply becasue some of us are still on dial-up :)) that seek little or nothing in the way of debate or discussion. Whay say?

Of course, you can choose to belive that it`s possible to discuss and debate even when being comlpetely obnoxious. That is completly your prerogative, no?

Akash # 446

Too many holes in your theory.Some other time may be.As DRUMZ says the MESSAGE not the MESSENGER.

Regards.