Confessions of a BJP Supporter

Ref Layman #: 257

[What`s your point? That a legal tiff between Prince of Arcot and the Wakf board is the same as a mob pulling down the Babri Masjid? The govt has pulled down temples too, for road expansion, illegal construction etc. But a mob pulling down Babri Masjid broke the law.]

Oh, I suppose I have to explain the context to people like you.

Wasn`t there a legal dispute, between Muslims and Hindus, pending before the courts regarding Babri Masjid? And one side took it upon itself to tear down the mosque. In Trichy, the situation was there is a dispute between two MUSLIM parties and one party decided to tear down the walls of the mosque.

I kinow you are trying to split hairs here but let me repeat what the commonly-held opinion is: it is one law if it is Muslims and another for the Hindus.

Nobody in India is in a mood to appease any minority anymore. Despite what you read in The Anti-Hindu.

Harimau 256

``Those couple of thousand Muslims you want killed each year: by any chance, would you want them to be Shias? Do Ahmadiyyas count as Muslims? How about Aga Khanis?``

Any kind as long as they claim to be muslims.You see I am very broad minded.Heck you could even

kill a few hundred sikhs as well like `84.Did you

ask uncle Sudarshan about the Muslims and the

Security risk to India.

PS:Did you hear about the bomb blasts last night in Ahmedabad,and the promptness by the Modi Govt

to investigate???

Sweet dreams.

harimau #242:

``By the way, all of you Indian and Pakistani a$$holes who have been ranting and raving about Babri Masjid, here is something I would like you to comment on if you have the ba!!s: A mosque in Trichy in Tamil Nadu had its outer walls pulled down by the Prince of Arcot Endowment (yes, the same guys who sold off southern India to the British and French in the 18th century) which is disputing its ownership with the Tamil Nadu Wakf Board.``

What`s your point? That a legal tiff between Prince of Arcot and the Wakf board is the same as a mob pulling down the Babri Masjid? The govt has pulled down temples too, for road expansion, illegal construction etc. But a mob pulling down Babri Masjid broke the law.

BTW, Khamkwa, Gujarat has already started reaping the results of the recent communal massacres.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_2014000/2014044.stm

Bomb blasts rock Indian state

Layman #247 you write ``when the BJP govt decided to test nukes, they were not doing it behind anyone`s back``

I never said that what the BJP did was or was not based on their previously announced manifesto on Kashmir and on nukes. I did not say anything about the substance of this policy either. All I said was that the policy of nuclearization is a self-defeating one for India, even as it has proved a major asset for Pakistan given the win-lose (as opposed to the vastly different win-win approach) nature of govt policies in both countries.

you write ``, but I think they have been honest in wanting good relations with Pak, ``

Agreed. But after Kargill, I think the hawks in BJP took over. Policy options other than ``nastiness as usual`` were never explored - notably, the policy option of strengthening democratic forces in Pakistan as the US and EU are trying to do (as I have been saying over the past few days).

you write ``Even if India does not retaliate this time, Pakistan will suffer the consequences of its own actions anyway.``

Agreed. Even as I applaud the test missiles which are clear warning shots designed to keep BJP at bay, I feel sick when I think of the number of schools that could have been built instead of the missile. But when someone is trying to burn your house down, you dont worry about the water bill.

you write ``Advani said recently that India should find a `different way` of fighting Pakistan. I think that is a code-word for a reverse proxy-war. I totally agree.``

This is a continuation of the win-lose strategy that India has tried in different ways: diplomatic, military. Think win-win instead (you probably can, I doubt if Advani is emotionally capable of that though. Too bad.) That is the only strategy that can realistically work.

tvarad #251 You are reinforcing my point, even though you did not get it. My point is simply that the massive Indian military forces now collected on our borders are today being held back by military initiatives and expenditures made by Bhutto, Zia, Benazir, Nawaz Sharif and Musharaff. I am not saying that these individuals all live happily ever after. While they did not benefit from this, for once they did something for which I as a Pakistani am grateful - allowed us to stand up to the bullying attitude of BJP. They can huff and they can puff, but they cant blow the house down for Pakistan without getting blown themselves.

Ref khamkhwa #: 246

[One request..Plz kill a couple of thousand muslims every once in a while to keep our raw material supply regular,coz as you know we donot send infiltrators across our borders. ;-) ]

Those couple of thousand Muslims you want killed each year: by any chance, would you want them to be Shias? Do Ahmadiyyas count as Muslims? How about Aga Khanis?

Ref Mullah321 #: 248

[harimau #242 I have not bothered to read your post after the first line.]

Yes, you have.

Any comments on the destruction of the outer walls of the Trichy Mosque by the Prince of Arcot Endowment?

I don`t think so.

Shall we discuss Babri Masjid instead and the intolerance of the Hindus?

Please, please, quote me those verses from the Quran about doing no harm to those who believe in other religions.

Do you really think that the Pakistani nukes are duds and will not harm the unbelieving Hindus?

Do you think that Allah will be issueing radiation suits to the Muslims of Delhi, Lucknow, Kanpur, Bhopal and Mumbai so that they will be miraculously saved?

What is the procedure for getting one of these radiation garments? Will Allah issue them directly or will he go through intermediaries such as mullahs, maulvis and maulanas? Will they be all-enclosing like the burqa? Will chaste Muslimas stop casting covetous glances at men because of the radiation suits and retain purity in their hearts? Is this Allah`s true intention?

13 is a very impressionable age in a boys life.You remember like a photographic nmemory everything compared to in later life when life passes by unoticed unremarkably like a boring drab book or movie ......

HORROR THROUGH TEEN?S LENS



HORROR THROUGH TEEN?S LENS



BY FREDERICK NORONHA Panaji, May 27: Shocked by the violence and brutality that tore apart the social fabric of Gujarat, a 15-year-old now tells the world his story as seen through the lens. Titled And They Killed Him Again, Sahir Raza?s roaming exhibition contains 79 stills from the Gujarat carnage. A student of Class XI, Sahir says he took the photographs while in Gujarat between April 7 and 10. ?I?ve been taking photographs since (the age of) nine,? says Sahir. He used a Nikon FE camera, and used up some 20 rolls of 24 exposures each to etch on film the images he wanted the world to take note of. For a 15-year-old, the situation was complex. So, to make his point, Sahir included a lot of subjects: victims of the carnage, relief camps where an estimated one lakh largely-Muslim victims have taken refuge, burnt houses, buildings and shops, even abandoned bodies. Did he face any tense moment? ?While shooting, not really,? recalls Sahir. ?But, at one shop I happened to call my father abbu (the Urdu word for dad). Suddenly, the shopkeeper started shouting out to people: ?Here?s this boy who?s calling his father abbu, he must be a Muslim....? ?It was very scary and the feeling remains with you. To realise that just the name of a person is enough to get him murdered,? says he. ?I?ve never seen a carnage before. My photographs should raise awareness of how bad the situation is in Gujarat. Just being there scares you. People (benumbed by the wanton brutality and now huddled in relief camps) have not been to their homes for 40 to 50 days, even for a look,? says Sahir. The exhibition has so far travelled from Delhi to Mumbai and now to Goa, from where Sahir plans to head for Orissa and Kerala. While young Sahir worked on the photographs, his father Gauhar Raza hastily put together a 34-minute video-film titled Junoon ke Badte Kadam (Evil Stalks the Land). For Sahir?s father, this is not the first such film. An electrical engineer from the Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi and a scientist by profession, Gauhar has 12 video films to his credit. Based on scientific research and development, his earlier films dealt with topics like eminent Indian scientists (Homi Bhabha and S.S. Bhatnagar), computer virus, computers in India, nuclear disarmament, and related themes. A film on communal violence was, therefore, for him a different proposition. ?This is an extremely important subject that has to do more with the future of the country,? says Gauhar. According to Gauhar, though the English media is doing a good job of building public awareness of the ghastly events in Gujarat, ?one per cent? of the enormity of the situation is being portrayed. He fears that intense religion-based intolerance could yield an Indian form of fascism, just as race-based hatred led to fascism in Germ

any. ?I come from Aligarh, the city of riots, and in 1984 saw Delhi burn (during the anti-Sikh riots),? he says, adding that the terror unleashed in Gujarat was much more shocking and at a much larger scale.

w

shammi #243 Agreed. The current situation is clearly a failure on the part of many individuals, starting from partition, on both sides of the border. A proper analysis of exactly who made the what decisions and how they proved to be wrong would require many years of study, I think.

The fact is that the choices one faces today as a Pakistani are quite limited - face occupation by a hostile, foreign army or else take `em down with you. It is when faced with such a choice that I am grateful for something that I would condemn if the choices were different: nukes, missiles and a large army. I hate to think what this means in terms of resources that should have gone to alleviating poverty. But that is for later, perhaps after October. If cities in both countries are not smoldering ashes by then... (and let us pray to God no).

harimau #242 I have not bothered to read your post after the first line.

I suggest you go wash your face (to use an urdu phrase), and learn how to write like a man, not like a hindutva rat (to use an english phrase).

RE: Reply #: 239 tahmed321

``As a Pakistani, I must admit that I am grateful today to each one of our leaders from Bhutto on down to Musharaff for one thing: each one of them persevered and finally built the nuclear bomb despite great international presures, and also built up conventional forces that are quite capable of defending Pakistan even without use of nuclear weapons.``



Let`s see what happened to all of these super-patriots:

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto: hanged (poor guy didn`t even have the time to taste the grass he`d promised to eat for the sake of the bomb)

Zia-ul-Haq: blown up (at least he tasted some mangoes, though not the eating variety)

Benazir Bhutto: exiled

Nawaz Sharif: exiled

Musharaff: ?

Looks like this bomb-building thing is quite hazardous for the health of it`s champions!

Tahmed321

India must indeed to do her part to promote democracy. And the General?

FYI-

Pakistan has failed to offer even the tiniest olive branch - The Independent (UK)

``...the four-star general, who has risen so convincingly to a succession of crises since the events of 11 September, offered little in the way of hope or reassurance in a disappointing address...``

http://argument.independent.co.uk/leading_articles/story.jsp?story=299604

``...Stocks fall over Musharraf speech

(Updated at 1100 PST) KARACHI: Country?s main share index fell over two percent in early trade on Tuesday, with brokers saying an overnight speech by President Pervez Musharraf was likely to raise tension with India...``

tahmed321 #239:

``As a Pakistani, I must admit that I am grateful today to each one of our leaders from Bhutto on down to Musharaff for one thing: each one of them persevered and finally built the nuclear bomb despite great international presures, and also built up conventional forces that are quite capable of defending Pakistan even without use of nuclear weapons. As a result today Pakistan is able to look at BJP in the eye and force it to back off from its threats to break up Pakistan. I say this even as I decry (as I always have) the military expenditures when we have so much suffering and poverty in our country. But what is the choice?? Surely BJP needs to take a fresh look - not just at its policies, but its entire way of thinking that gives rise to this policy of destroying Pakistan (an unachievable goal, as you recognize in your posts I think), and hopefully will reach the same conclusion that we seem to be arriving at in this discussion: that rather than continue its failed efforts to get the rest of the world to see Pakistan as they see Pakistan (i.e. an enemy to be destroyed), and rather than trying to destroy Pakistan (which it cannot), it is time BJP should take the high road and seek to promote peace and political progress in Pakistan and also live up to the ideals of secularism within India.``

Dude, dude, dude, BJP has been in power only since when? 1998. Pak military expenditure has always been high, even before BJP came to power, so dont give us that excuse.

The BJP election manifesto right since its 13-day stint in 1996 said the following things: a) Make India a nuclear power b) Scrap Art 370 of the Constitution that gave J&K special status within India. Hence, when the BJP govt decided to test nukes, they were not doing it behind anyone`s back, they were not going back on any `assurances` to the Americans (as had been mentioned by someone on Chowk), they were fulfilling their manifesto.

Despite having hardline views like scrapping Art 370, you must admit that BJP (and specifically Vajpayee) tried for peace, which no previous govt did - neither Janata Dal nor Congress nor VP Singh nor the Gujral doctrine loving IK Gujral. Pak was a democracy then, nothing stopped these govts from pursuing peace. Through Lahore, BJP publicly raised hopes among Indians for peace and friendly relations with Pak. It also sought to reassure Pak that we respected its existence when Vajpayee visited the Minar or whatever it was. You will have to give the BJP credit for that. You (and I) can demonise the BJP for their communalism, Gujarat, Babri Masjid, but I think they have been honest in wanting good relations with Pak, more than any govt in the recent past. And doing something concrete about it.

I dont need to repeat the story of Lahore, Kargil, Agra etc. But when even sane Pakistanis like you demonise the BJP (in the context of Indo-Pak relations), you are doing two things:

1. Ignoring the constant militant attacks in J&K and elsewhere by militants trained and supported by Pakistan. Which Indian govt (least of all a BJP one) can bear such attacks indefinitely? Sooner or later, these attacks will hurt us badly and that is when we will be forced to retaliate. Surely you cannot complain when that happens.

2. The fact that most Indians, not all of whom are BJP supporters, are pissed at Pakistan for its support of militancy in J&K. Even Indian Muslims are pissed, in case you had any doubt. People like me who had no idea about Pak a few years ago, till its proxy war, are pissed at Pakistan. This will continue irrespective of whether BJP is in power or not.

The existence of nuclear weapons has encouraged Pakistan to punch above its weight. Even if India does not retaliate this time, Pakistan will suffer the consequences of its own actions anyway. Its economy is hurting because of the jihadis, there is no investment, only foreign aid and rescheduled loans, its society is also getting affected by the jihadis. India can withstand the terrorist attacks and survive. Each attack in J&K will only anger the locals against Pakistan even more, which is good for India.

Advani said recently that India should find a `different way` of fighting Pakistan. I think that is a code-word for a reverse proxy-war. I totally agree. Pakistan is as vulnerable as India, if not more. There are enough disaffected people in Pakistan itself who can be employed to carry out terrorist attacks in Pakistan. Remember, with India`s larger resources, we can conduct a low-cost proxy war indefinitely, if we put our mind to it. And since we wont be sending jihadis from our side, we wont have to worry about `blowback`.

Harimau

Pakistan does not need to send any more infiltrators in India.Now we have got enough raw material in the camps of Gujarat to take care of you from within you.Think about that and have sweet dreams.

PS. One request..Plz kill a couple of thousand muslims every once in a while to keep our raw material supply regular,coz as you know we donot send infiltrators across our borders. ;-)

Harimau # 242

``Let me put one more thought for you all to reflect on: you can send the bearded jihadis into Kashmir because India has 140 million Muslims and we can`t easily tell if the guy is a local or an infiltrator. India cannot send terrorists into Pakistan because there are not enough Hindus and Sikhs there for Indian infiltrators to melt into.``

It makes me very sad to hear of your majboori.Got an idea,why don`t you send infiltrators from the 140 million muslims into Pakistan for terrorist activities.They will be perfectly lost in the Muhajir crowd.But maybe you will never do that

because ALL INDIAN MUSLIMS are a security risk.If

you don`t believe me ask His Holiness Sudarshan.

Nuclear bombs only guarantee MAD or MAM(mutually assured madness), never peace. Peace can only come when we learn to empathise with each other`s concerns and fears and reach a mutually acceptable decision. But these things require too much sagacity especially in a charged environment, methinks.