Confessions of a BJP Supporter

hobbyt
Its not a charge, its a criticism.

hate : 1 a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b : extreme dislike or antipathy : LOATHING

bigot : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

Why so defensive? You and Urstruly should answer criticism instead of refusing to accept it. It does absolutely no good to be `ostrichlike` and defensive about criticism, its better to be open and deal with problems long neglected.

For instance, its horrifing to read about what you were taught in school. You are taught to identify the difference between Hindus and Muslims as part of school curriculum at the tender age of 7 or 8.

To be taught from a young age that national two nation ideology of the separateness of Hindus from rest of humanity is over and above all human inter-community international relations, alas, its such fascism inculcated from a young age has surely lead to the mutiple holocausts on the subcontinent.

(And the most horrendous yet to come : apparantly the Pakistani Army didnot see fit to keep the Prime Minister informed of its nuclear program and even deployments during war)

[fascism : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition]


In your own words, its better to admit that the idea that Hinduism is an enemy of Islam and Pakistan doesnot increase the scope of what is Pakistan, it will/has decrease the idea of what is Pakistan, it will/has create ``reservations`` for competing ideas of Pakistan as already evidenced by the increasing delegitimization of mainstream political movements and exiling/assassination/beheading of its leaders and centre stage yielded to armed and extreme movements in determining the course of events.

And why so defensive, hobbyt? Why do you and Urstruly refuse to look into your hearts and honestly admit and discuss your hatred and bigotry for Hindus?

[Backgrounder
temporal #35:
And response-post Harpreet #75:

Foregrounder:
soundmeister #103.... maybe you made your choice and are happy with it....good for you...but damned if you are allowed to say things like that, esp. to a Pakistani (sorry t, nothing personal)…]


HOW DARE YOU, BROTHER

Have two siblings
The three of us
Differ and different
In more ways
---looks, tastes, thinking
Yet shared the same womb
And despite differences
Love, more than hate.

On Mother Earth
Harpreet, you and I
Are but siblings
How dare you
Chastise Harpreet
When he opened his heart
When I opened mine?

How dare you
How dare you
Don’t you know
Some of us
NEVER
Speak out of hate?

Stuka #94 ``I would still qualify as a Pinko, Wagah candle holder :)``

I`ll be right there with you. Maybe the high stepping guards on both sides wouldnt mind having a good laugh over a cup of tea in the evening either after they are done with their duty of looking meaner than the other guy.

shammi #6

I agree.

Zafar Al-Talib

``Why do all your posts end up at the same point?``

I may be mistaken but I have the impression that most Indians think the creation of Pakistan to be unjustified and an injustice - I also think that the position many Indians are taking on Kashmir is informed by this sentiment.

Most Indians on Chowk will say, that indians accept the creation of Pakistan but I want to include here a quote from an article in today`s Christian Science Monitor, http://csmonitor.com/2002/0517/p01s04-wosc.html :

``For 50 years, India has been nebulous about what to do about Pakistan. Do they dismember it, resuscitate it, or do business with it? And so, without this clear political course, there is no guidance for the military.``

And I wanted to point out that the kinds of ideology and events we are witnessing today in Gujjrat - as you are aware it is being called a laboratory of Hindutva, that is if it succeeds here, is the prescription for the rest of India -will have the effect of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Prem

Consider: Hinduism is already being taught in schools but in bits and pieces - and what is being taught is a miltant, muscular, xenophobic, Glorious past. We in Pakistan are familiar with this theme and it`s ramifications. My advocacy of teaching Hinduism with an emphasis on the ethics is an effort to recognize reality and to help shape it away from the kind of attitudes one witnesses today. If Hindu ethics are taught, so will Islamic, Christian and those of other religions and this can only help. Man does not live by bread alone - this realization, whenever it comes, must find the individual familiar with basics of ethics - we know that there will be many who will seek to use or misuse religious teachings, so better we provide an education that will arm the indivdual to discern the wheat from the chaff.

#85 akash

``Of course, all of us whether sane or insane would rally behind the then govt against

external enemy.We can deal with whatever differences we have after the war is over. But

in war, WE ARE ONE. EVERYONE OF US WILL CHANT ``VICTORY OR DEATH`` WHEN

THE TIME TO SAVE THE HONOR OF OUR MOTHERLAND ARRIVES.``

I am sure what you say applies to a large majority. But then there are also a few of us who have trouble showing selective outrage at some goons spraying bullets on a bus full of civilians and other goons pulling civilians out of their homes and setting fire to them or slitting the bellies of pregnant women, WITH THE POLICE LOOKING THE OTHER WAY.

Sorry, the enemy number one are the sponsors of the latter set of goons.

Sadna

You have not offered criticism but made a charge -OK with me - I am willing to discuss as it applies to me, I`m sure if Urstruly feels there is merit in your charge he will engage you - but, I will give the benefit of the doubt and make myself availble to discuss your contention. First can wee set up a basis, so at least we can say there is a measure of validity to the charges you have made against me and therfore we should discuss it?

What is basis of the charge you make against me?

One thing i find it very strange , whenever the BJP is under some pressure and losing popularity like what happened after Gujrat or Defence Scam involving George Fernandes , the terrorists strike in Kashmir and suddenly the media and public attention is automatically diverted from those issues . is there any relation or i am just imagining things .

Ref MT #: 92

[I am disappointed even with Muslims of southern states because they seem to be increasingly living cloistered lives, the better educated ones among them with a broader outlook could be a positive influence on the not so progressive Muslims of the North but they are not.]

The Muslims of the southern states are not yet corrupted by Deobandi fundamentalism. The Muslims of Kerala have every right to look down on the rest of Indian/Pakistani Muslims because they can claim direct contact with Arabia long before any Muhammad bin Qasim bin Camel invaded Sindh. The Muslims of Kerala are not looking to the state to provide them with any ``support``; they demand and get whatever they deserve through participation in the political process.

In Tamil Nadu, a girl named Hidaya Fathima topped the MBBS entrance exam. She was not crying discrimination by Hindu majority or not being able to get a drink of water from a Brahmin`s house as the reason why she should be given preferential admission to medical college unlike fcukers like Soysauce. If people like Hidaya Fathima do not care about the Ummah, all power to her. Today, it is a dog-eat-dog world.

What India needs is the conscious integration of Muslims into society. Before my friends like Zafar protest, let me explain what I mean. Indian Muslims have to say to themselves that they are not Muslims of Bhopal, of Lucknow, of Kanpur, but of India as a whole. So long as the regional identity persists, the ghetto mentality will exist. This was the situation in Tamil Nadu 30 years ago when Soysauce`s political mentors raised separatist slogans. Today, Tamil Nadu is safely in the Indian Union despite various Pakistanis` wishes to the contrary.

Secondly, we need to eliminate the single thing that riles Indians most: Muslim Personal Law. The Prophet`s honor is NOT impugned if a woman gets alimony from her divorced husband or if the divorce goes through a civil court. If you eliminate Muslim Personal Law, Muslims will have to take their lumps along with the rest of Indians in the Indian civil courts, accepting the uneven justice handed out by them, as opposed to nailing their women with `talaq, talaq, talaq`.

This would also eliminate the photo opportunity that the bearded fundos enjoy today whenever the Shariah is ``violated`` by some High Court or Supreme Court judgment. If Muslims can live in the US and UK without the right to live under Shariah, they can bloody well accept the same rule in India or, as I suggest to Farzana Versey, move to Afghanistan. It would also shut up Imam Syed Bukhari who regularly fulminates against ``courtesans`` like Shabhana Azmi.

If the Muslims of northern India are not progressive, they share that with the Hindus too. All of you have to get out of your ghettoes.

re: akash

{But in war, WE ARE ONE. EVERYONE OF US WILL CHANT ``VICTORY OR DEATH`` WHEN THE TIME TO SAVE THE HONOR OF OUR MOTHERLAND ARRIVES.}

...take a chill pill man...this ain`t a bollywood movie...we don`t need to `chant` anything to do the needful...

Reply MT # 92

“I am assuming that you are a descendant of the dime -a dozen Syeds of the Asia.”

No ulloo. I’m the proud descendent of bhangis who converted to Islam. You and I are doubtlessly related.

“I am disappointed even with Muslims of southern states…”

Really? They’re probably disappointed in you as well. If you are Indeed Indian, ithni anpadh badthameezi kahan se seekhi? Ham se tho nahin.

“How is it that you missed my part about overabundance of certain group in the ``export-import`` business.”

Oh I get it. Aap koi failed businessman ke bete hain. Iss liye ithna ghussa. But bhai, be reasonable – its not our fault that other people were smarter than….

Reply Hobbyty # 87

Mian

Re: The irony is the intolerant bigot accusing others of intolerant bigotry.

“As the rest if us are angels, it makes the criticism invalid? Is criticism now to be acceptable, only if offered by acceptable persons?”

When criticism is just abuse for the sake of abuse do you find it acceptable?

Repeated accusations are not particularly constructive criticism. Nor, I suspect, are they intended to be. Of course I may be wrong, and will pay closer attention in future to ensure that I don’t miss any valid criticism mixed in among the slurry. (This is no great effort, since I am a fan of Urstruly’s writing style, and usually read his posts twice, if not thrice.)

“Is the criticism valid or not? Basically everyone on all sides of the divide agree with the criticism Urstruly has offered.”

Er…Urstruly’s criticism boiled down to: all Hindus are prejudiced intolerant bigots because of their religion. (No reasons, no analysis, not even citing any objective facts. What’s to respond to in that?)

Which planet do you live on that you think that silence ( *yawn * phir vahi bakvaas, they think, javab dene se kya faida, he’s only asking for attention, don’t encourage him) is agreement?

“Janab, ``Irony`` - While you describe Urstruly as a ``bigot`` for valid criticism - you have not a word for the ideology and the actions that created Gujjrat. The Gujjratis being burnt alive are Muslims - but they are also ``Indians`` are they not? and yet Urstruly is the hateful ``bigot`` for being criticial?”

Mian, please read my posts on Gujarat, then come back and we can discuss what issues you have with them. My definition for ideology and actions that created Gujarat (sp!) is: fascism, using religious extremism as a driver. (I fail, btw, to see the great difference between Hindutva and Urstruly’s attitude towards Ahmedias, for example, so amply demonstrated in his posts on the Blasphemy Laws and to Sattar2, with whom (as a minority myself) I naturally enough identify.)

“Listen, between you and me and this wall and this door, we all know…“

Hobbyty, every time we go to the brink and you redeem yourself and give me pause for thought.. And yes, of course criticism can be good because it forces one to look at unpleasant facts – but if disagreement about cause, or even definition, is genuine, why not try and look at things from a different perspective, even if the result is disconcerting?

Regards

Re: Harpo-reet #75:

``The Indian polity and Indian society is rotten to the core.``

You seem to be one of those NRI-types who vistis once in five years and screws his nose up at the stench at the airport and drinks only Evian at 85 bucks a bottle when they`re here.... maybe you made your choice and are happy with it....good for you...but damned if you are allowed to say things like that, esp. to a Pakistani (sorry t, nothing personal).

``Congress has to take a whole heap of responsibility for this nightmare. They softened the woodwork of the Indian state and let these scumbags rise and fill the vaccum left by them, the paranoid delusionist fascists who slid right into their squalid seat, due to their corruption and lack of transparency, their legitimisation of mob violence in 1984, their continual eunuch-like sycophancy to the spawn of the devil Nehru Gandhi dynasty.``

Convenient argument no? Congress ruled for 40 years...therefore any problems that India faced at the end of that period was their fault. Sure the license-raj was a direct consequence of Nehruvian socialism, but what`s to say a free economy from 1947 would have made us any happier? If anything it seems to me, it would have increased the gap between rich and poor to an unbearable extent. Your references to the BJP make it sound like you hate them more than the Congress....obviously you are one of those who comfortably and proudly declares ``I don`t vote.... all politicians are crooks``.

``In India the bottom line is this: If you are a member of the Congress/BJP mafia, you can literally get away with MURDERING THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN and never be punished. You have absolute impunity to commit mass murder at will.``

That is an utterly preposterous remark. Care to back it with some facts?

``This leads us onto an even darker truth: We are being ruled by men who are tyrants and overlords that feed on the blood and bodies of those they are constitutionaly elected to protect in a way that would put Aurengzeb to shame.``

See again the ruler-as-oppressor theory? If you`re that concerned why not accept it as your responsibility to ensure that the right people are voted into power? What prevents YOU---Mr. upright moral righteousness himself--- from contesting an election or two or at least demanding some accountability from those in power through all the constitutional aveneues open to you? Ranting to an adoring audience at some insignificant website doesn`t count, buddy.

``India is not only the worlds largest democracy. We can also take pride in being the worlds only pogrom democracy.``

Harpo, go fukk yourself..... at the risk of sounding like a chaddiwala...let me remind you that one of the bloodiest ``pogroms`` carried out in our country was the mindless carnage unleashed by those idiot Khalistanis back in the 80s and early 90s.... do I go around condemning your community memebers as bloodthirsty warmongers? (Not to mention those ULFA and Naga guys in the North East....oh but those are CHRISTIANS aren`t they?) .....I smile and admire your cute lil ``proud to be Sikh`` stickers and tut-tut sympathetically when you cry about how Hindus killed your ilk mercilessly after Indira was shot....

My point, to put things in perspective, is this.... there is sound reason for every thing that happens. The social milieu in Gujarat has obviously degenerated to such an extent that the Hindu-Muslim divide is complete. Obviously it`s easy to blame one side for this, and given our propensity to portray ourselves in a negative light at the drop of a hat, it`s quite obvious the Hindus will continue to be blamed for all that is evil in that state. Fair enough, but is it achieving anything? How many sociologists, anthropologists, economists, scholars, have actually come forward with some theory that explains why the entire Hindu population of Gujarat-- cutting across barriers of class, staus and even ---horror of horros--caste, reacted the way they did ruining the lives of thousands of people just for the ``crime`` of belonging to a different religious community? All we hear day in and day out are hysterical screams for Narendra modi`s head. He has already been dubbed a hitler and a Milosevic, his partymen and comrades dubbed as pogromists and rabid fanatics.... but still there is every indication that the same bunch will be voted to power almost certainly in the next election. Why this schizophrenia? Are not the people of Gujarat exactly the same as those elsewhere in the country? instead of analysing what really happened, every seems just glad to take some sort of stand that suits his moral and political leanings, while General mushy laughs his way to the LoC....

Do reply...

N

(Phew...I needed that)

We need war crimes trials, death sentences, public and full calling to account of these scumbags.

Stuka # 101

``But, when it comes to the solution, are you saying that we should sit back and take punishment from you just because you have the ability to ``blackmail`` us?``

About 90% of this punishment is self-inflicted. The calculated and pre-meditated disinformation and irresponsibility of your government and media create most of the hatred in which you people wallow. I am talking about the kind of disinformation that was given to Indian populace about the recent attack in Jammu, the attack on Indian Parliament; the so-called hijaking of your own plane.

And let me tell you something about the ``pragmatic self-interest`` of a polity. In my opinion the most pragmatic self-interest of a polity can only be achieved by being open, being truthful to its people, by acting on the principles of human rights, by respecting the rights of people whom you dislike. If slef-inetersts are not kept within these parameters, it results in genocide in Gujrat, it results in genocuide in Kashmir, it results in drakonian laws like POTA, it results is the death warrant of the people whom you dislike, like the Disturbed Area Act of 1991, which has caused the death of nearly 100,000 people in Kashmir alone.

hobbyt #87
``Basically everyone on all sides of the divide agree with the criticism Urstruly has offered. ``

I don`t know about others but I think you and urstruly are full of hate and bigotry.

Let us discuss why you and urstruly are full of hate and bigotry.

Interesting article on the Himalayan region in the British Observor:

``War at the top of the world

From the Maoists of Nepal to the separatists in Kashmir, conflict in the Himalayas threatens to engulf southern Asia

CRESCENT OF CONFLICT: Flashpoints of a region in turmoil

Observer Worldview

Luke Harding

Sunday May 12, 2002

The Observer

......

The battle in the remote western area of Nepal was merely the latest in a series of gruesome encounters between the kingdom`s rampant Maoist guerrillas and government forces. Over the past week nearly 1,000 people have been killed - a fact eclipsed by the blanket coverage of the far lesser carnage in the Middle East.

The violence now threatens to engulf the entire Himalayan region, from Afghanistan to Pakistan through India, Kashmir and Tibet.

In India, an increasingly aggressive Hindu nationalist government has done virtually nothing to stop the slaughter of Muslims by Hindu gangs. More than 2,000 Muslims have died over the past two-and-a-half months in riots in the prosperous western state of Gujarat. Intelligence reports circulating in Washington and London, meanwhile, warn of a summer-long conflict between India and Pakistan in Kashmir, where Islamic militants have been fighting a separatist battle for 12 years......

Nepal`s immense neighbour, India, is also in crisis. The Hindu nationalist BJP party in power in New Delhi has given every impression of tacitly supporting the anti-Muslim pogroms in Gujarat. India`s Prime Minister, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, has refused to sack Gujarat`s unrepentant Chief Minister, Narendra Modi, despite frequent allegations that he instructed his officials to allow Hindu mobs to rape, murder and burn their minority Muslim neighbours. The death toll in Ahmedabad, Gujarat`s shiny commercial centre, rises every day. Early last week four Hindu youths spotted M. A. Kothawala, a 35-year-old Muslim lecturer, riding to work. His beard gave him away. They dragged him off his motorbike, stabbed him and burnt him alive. So far none of the Hindus who attacked Muslims has been punished. Gujarat`s Hindu police force has shot dead more than 100 Muslims......

Despite the carnage, America has maintained a discreet silence on the matter. India, its crucial ally in the region, is pro-American and pro-Israeli (and likens its tough stand against Pakistan to Israel`s approach to the Palestinians). The communal riots began after a Muslim mob incinerated 58 Hindu extremists on a train in the town of Godhra. A team of British diplomats recently concluded that the massive anti-Muslim backlash was `pre-planned`.

There are few signs, meanwhile, that the 12-year insurgency by Muslim Kashmiris against the Indian state is coming to an end. The daily death toll in Kashmir, India`s only Muslim majority province, is invariably higher than in the Palestinian intifida, but it rarely merits more than a brief mention in the foreign news pages. About 50,000 people - soldiers, militants, civilians - have died. India has blamed the rebellion on Islamist jihadis creeping across the border from Pakistan.

This is only half the story. Repeated human rights abuses by the 400,000 Indian soldiers stationed in the Kashmir valley against the civilian population have ensured the movement is an indigenous one too. India`s Foreign Minister, Jaswant Singh, last week rejected the suggestion made by the Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, that monitors should supervise Kashmir`s election later this year. His comments suggest New Delhi will, as on previous occasions, rig the ballot to ensure victory for the National Conference, part of the ruling BJP coalition. There is little sign of fresh thinking on Kashmir from the Indian establishment, which sees the solution to its difficulties as military rather than political.

The revolt in Kashmir, as in Nepal, however, is the result of political disaffection and economic misery.....

There is nothing new about communal unrest or insurrection in South Asia, but what differs about the most recent violence in Gujarat is that it has taken place in the heart of India with the unambiguous evidence of state involvement. India, as envisaged by Mahatma Gandhi and its first Prime Minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, was supposed to be a secular country, open to people of all faiths.

But Hindu fundamentalists who pushed aside Nehru`s fading Congress Party in the mid-1990s have replaced his vision with something darker, fascist even. They give the impression of wanting India`s 120 million Muslims to disappear or decamp to Muslim Pakistan. As Sunny Grewal, one of many BJP supporters living in Britain, put it: `Muslims of India should pack their bags and head off to Pakistan. There is no room for the Satanic evil forces of Islam in India. They don`t belong on this earth. They are evil.`

`I think the forebodings are very grim,` Ramachandra Guha, one of India`s leading writers and environmentalists, added last night. `Radical Hindus are trying to turn India into a kind of Hindu Pakistan, along theological lines, and with Hindus in charge rather than Muslims.`

Pakistan, meanwhile, has fared little better since independence. Its army has repeatedly toppled the country`s frequently venal and short-lived civilian governments. And, with the Bangladesh war of 1971, the idea that being a Muslim was enough to hold a state together was catastrophically disproved when the country split in half. Like India, Pakistan, under military dictator General Pervez Musharraf, has signed up to the US war on terrorism (though not its support for Israel). He even won a spurious referendum in which he was the only candidate. But Islamist extremists and sectarian violence now threaten him with perpetual embarrassment.

Both India and Pakistan are facing crises of post-colonial identity - but their predicament has scarcely been noticed because of the West`s continuing preoccupation with the troubles in the Middle East.`` (complete article at http://www.observer.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4411936,00.html)