Confessions of a BJP Supporter

Roohi #163 I am sorry that fine chowk posters like you have to send posts reminding CHOWK STAFF (the capitals are of course in case any of them actually look at these posts anymore) to do their job as moderators and cut out posts like those from progressive that violate to an extreme degree the written chowk guidelines, and are simply obscene. I would however be surprised if you get get a response of any kind at all from chowk. (I wrote a similar post a few months ago complaining about some posts urstruly wrote on one of his worse-than-usual days, and there was no response either).

Correction:
harimau #various, soysauce #various
You may be at odds with each other, but both of you have the same thought process in this instance.You each tend to make spurious associations between unconnected events.

harimau #various, soysauce #various
You may be at odds with each other, but both of you both the same thought process in this instance(sorry :)). You each tend to make spurious associations between unconnected events.

So for instance, harimau curses everyone for mourning over Gujarat because caste killings take place in Tamil Nadu and Bihar.

soysauce refuses to take sides when three reportedly-Pakistani gunmen shoot dead women and children in Jammu because he feels very bad that women and children were killed by Hindu mobs in Gujarat.

None of these 4 separate instance have any cause-effect connection with the other, unless the general mindless premise of each of you is how bad all Indians/Muslims/Hindus are, resp. Which is IMO, a copout on your part.


The correct interpretation is, all these things happened, all do indeed have to SEPARATELY register on our consicousness, they donot CANCEL out each other as both of you seem to imply.

Their causes are seperate:
1. caste violence in Bihar is due to mutual resistance between the landed and landless, in TN due to tensions between newly empowered `lower` castes and as-yet unempowered `lowest` castes
2. Gujarat :
Godhara : we don`t know why exactly yet, riots because of militant philosophy encouraged by party organisational machinery and complacent admin(first cut)
3. Jammu : religious extremists prob. from across the border wanting to prevent normalization in J&K, exert jihadi muscle and provoke an incident


These causes have to be seperately understood and the consequences preempted, not mishmashed into a meaningless mess like you are doing.

Are you unwell or pressed for time perhaps :)? Or is the complexity of India and events there getting to be too much for your intellectual /discriminatory/emotional capabilities to handle?

YLH,

In reply to: May-20-02 0:44:24 EST Reply #: 151

LESSONS IN PATRIOTISM...

I was amazed and awed by your post. How old did you say you were? 22. I am not surprised, you have a lot of growing up to do.

If India had a few more of soundmiesters, nothing in the world would be able to stop the disintegration of the country. The only way a large democracy can survive and do well is by being inclusive and that includes having diverse opinions, often contrary to each other. Look at the posts of other Indians, criticizing soundmiesters narrow vision. This is India`s strength. Although we have a few Modis, but we have a lot more people who are horrified at what happened in 1984 and now in Gujarat. Our saffron brigade are twins of your Mullahs and the only difference is that they were born on the opposite side of the border.

Do you also get red hot on writers like Ayaz Amir when they criticize the government of the time? In my opinion, they are the strength and only hope of Pakistan. They are like the keel of the ship that stops the ship from tilting over on either side.

Please visit

http://www.kabirweb.com

A lovely collection with Kabir`s Dohas and Mystic songs listed in Roman and Devnagri script with translations into english and some french.

Chowk Staff

Please clarify how progressive #155 does not violate some of your interact guidelines and is fit to be posted ?

For your reference here are your own guidelines ...



Here are some of the guidelines that need to be observed in all interaction on Chowk.

Please keep your interaction relevant to the article and its primary theme

Please refrain from language that is abusive

Please refrain from personal attacks on writers and respondents

PLEASE REFRAIN FROM FRIVOLOUS STATEMENTS THAT ARE INFLAMMATORY TOWORDS ANY RACE, NATIONALITY, ETHINICITY OR RELIGION

Please refrain from abusing the interaction spaces with plugs and unsolicited publicity for other websites and on-line and off-line services

can only be achieved by being open, being truthful to its people, by acting on the principles of human rights, by respecting the rights of people whom you dislike.``

Oh, like the politico/military establishment of Pakistan has been doing since it`s inception, right? Like the latest charade of the great Pakistani hope himself, having gotten 98% (or whatever) of the people to say they wanted him to be chief dictator? Who has been playing games for the last 55 years? It is OK for the Pak military to have it`s own idea of the future of Pakistan which is totally orthogonal to what the people want (and have repeatedly expressed whenever they were given an honest right to choose). Is there ANY other country in the world which exists as a negation of another country? Is there ANY other country which is as duplicitous as Pakistan which has signed documents like the Simla agreement, the Lahore declaration for a peaceful solution to all bihlateral problems and sprung Jihadis and Kargils on India? The only one I can think of is Hitler`s third reich. Urstrulys, if you are a patriotic Pakistani, you would spend these misguided energies to understanding what is rotten about a society that, by any standards, has been raped and pillaged by it`s own leadership before pointing fingers at anyone.

``If slef-inetersts are not kept within these parameters, it results in genocide in Gujrat, it results in genocuide in Kashmir, it results in drakonian laws like POTA, it results is the death warrant of the people whom you dislike, like the Disturbed Area Act of 1991, which has caused the death of nearly 100,000 people in Kashmir alone.``

And this from the citizen of a country which slaughtered, at conservative estimates, 1.5 million people in Bangladesh in nine months flat. Which hijacked a whole wretched country like Afghanistan that had already been brutalized and foisted a backward, medieval regime on it that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands more. All to serve it`s military elite`s cockamamie idea of ``strategic depth``. I need not mention the Nazi idea of having Hindus wear identifying marks that were clearly nurtured by the Pakistani jihadi factories under the supervision of it`s military.

Don`t couch your virulent hatred of all things Indian with all this humanistic talk.

Re; Prem 131

``That was one of the stupidests posts by an Indian in a long while.``

Coming from you, that`s a compliment.

Harpreet, you reacted exactly the way I expected. Nuff said.

Temporal, dearest, I TOLD you nothing personal, but still you had to butt in.... your How Dare You`s made me giggle more than blush, you know?

And just for the benefit of all those good Indians out there, it`s so easy to grin and bear everything in the name of being nice and tolerant. I swear everytime I hear Mushy utter the term ``freedom fighter`` with that half-smirk around his lips I wanna strangle the mufukka...... the scary fact that all it takes is one half-crazed mullah to push a button to see my beloved cities in flames is rather more than one can take. Blame the politicians all you will, but calling Indian society rotten to the core is unforgivable, simply because it is just not true. We try, maybe we need to try harder, and I`m with you in that effort Harpreet, just don`t let cynicism carry it all away.

If I offended anyone I apologise.

Gonna get off chowk for a while. Try and gather myself and my thoughts. Cya all.

N

CONFESSIONS OF A V.H.P..Vishwa Hindu Parishad

My involvement with VHP has been complex - a love hate relationship. It

started when I was 7 years old and my parents sent me to ``Hindu camp``.

The first summer I went I hated it and was completely home sick. It was

in the middle of the woods in New Jersey and I hated my parents for

forcing me to spend all this time with dumb Indians. My parents

continued forcing me and my siblings to go, but I would go with less

reluctance each summer. By the 3rd summer, this one week was the

highlight of my year. I would start to count down the days `til next

year`s camp as soon as I returned home.

The camp taught us yoga and meditation, excersize in the morning. We had

breakfast then free time (when we showered in out-houses infested with

daddy-long leg spiders). Then our education started. When it came to

religion I was a clean slate, not knowing anything the first years I

went. We learned about the Vedas and other scriptures, and my knowledge

grew. We also learned that ours was the most superior religion of them

all. After years of people telling you that people of your own religion

eat monkey-brains, this was quite refreshing. In the afternoon, we`d

have social discussions like, how to deal with parental conflict,

arranged marriage, and women and Hinduism. We got to play with Mehndi

and in the afternoon we played Indian sports and games like Kupadi

(sp?).

Soon enough I started to LOVE camp, spiders and all. There, I was a real

person. Unlike at my school, I was accepted, I was normal, I was the

right race, I was the right religion, I had normal customs, I was

finally just like everyone else. There, boys would actually talk to me,

and even be `interested` in me. It was like I stepped into a wonderful

new universe. We`d stay up all night in our tents or cabins laughing and

sharing common stories of how backwards our parents are. We found solace

in each other. They be came my best friends. And at the same time, we

were proud to call ourselves Hindu for the first time in our lives.

This is what VHP meant to us. We were proud to be youth members of VHP.

We had no clue what our parents were actually funding and what we were

supporting. I don`t think my parents knew the connections to what was

happening in India.

Throughout high school and my early years in college I was active in

Hindu organizations tied to VHP like Hindu Students Council (HSC). For

me, a Hindu organization was synonymous to an Indian organization. I put

in countless ours volunteering to put together conferences and working

on their materials. I still credit VHP for keeping me on the straight

and narrow. At school, my American friends smoked pot, dropped acid, all

smoked cigarrettes. I chose not to get caught up in it, not because of

parental guidance (my mom worked 80 hrs./week and my dad left the house

permanently) but because I knew I had friends and a community that

didn`t do that stuff. I wanted to remain accepted among my Indian peers.

In college my feminism was sprouting and so the VHPers always chose me

to speak at meetings or conferences about Hindu women. I was an example

of ``a good youth`` who could spout out the rhetoric that Hinduism holds

``mother`` up on a pedestal - that a misogynist relgion would never have

female gods like Sita who everyone adores. It was really the other

religions that were demeaning toward women because they don`t have

female gods.

So soon enough I started seeing the bullshit. The more I questioned the

rhetoric the more I felt internal conflict, and that the organization no

longer represented who I was. I learned about the ties HSC had to VHP

of America which had ties to VHP of India, which had ties to the RSS.

Soon enough I cut MY ties with my friends and everyone I knew who were

involved in these organizations. I refused to be associated with such

closed-mindedness and such atrocities.

After college I went to India to work for a year. As I approached

non-profits looking for a job or internship in Bombay, one in particular

saw that I had worked on a magazine for HSC/VHP. I was trying to stess

the writing, production, layout and design experience I had, and did not

think to remove the organizations` names from my resume. Anyway, they

questioned my involvement with the organization which moved into

harrassment and insults for working with them. I explained that a kid

growing up in the US needs cultural organizations so that they learn

about their heritage, so they know why they are so different from

everyone else. So there is some sense of belonging. So that they don`t

internalize the racism. So that they don`t fall through the cracks and

end up druggies like their peers. The non-profit didn`t buy it and I

didn`t get the internship.

So ever since then, I have been ashamed yet thankful of my involvement

with VHP. (Hence my anonymity)

Spiritual domain of Hinduism above law: Kancha Ilaiah

UNI

BANGALORE: The Indian legal system allowed the spiritual domain of Hinduism to operate in the country above the law and the state despite proclaiming to be secular in its ideological framework, eminent political scientist Kancha Ilaiah says.

``This is where caste finds its survival base in Indian society``, he said in a paper presented during the consultations on the role of law in combating casteism and communalism at the National law school of India University. He said ``Casteism is construed in the spiritual realm of Hinduism. Unless it is tackled within the sphere of Hindu religion it is difficult to eradicate it even in socio-economic spheres in the modern period.``

Ilaiah said the post capitalist modernity was intrinsically linked to establishing the supremacy of secular law that could bring all spheres of life into its governance. Though political democracy and Christian religious institutions have come to coexist with harmony, Hinduism as a religion refused to function under the supremacy of the constitatic state, he alleged that the BJP`s operations from the position of power and the systematic undermining of the secular and constitutional law by the Sangh Parivar in relation to Ram mandir issue had betrayed the theocratic designs of all of them.

My apologies for reposting, but this is fascinating..apparently Shabana Azmi is all things for many people...and not good for some...

Date: 5/20/2002 1:09:38 AM

Subject: Counter-demonstration against the Hindu Right. A Hindu right-wing group is planning to demonstrate during a staged

reading of Shashi Tharoor`s novel `Riot` at the New School for Social Research

on Tuesday, the 21st of May, between 5:30 and 7:30 p.m. They have been circulating a hysterical and slanderous document about Shabana Azmi

(see below) for the last few days. You probably know of Shabana Azmi, Bombay actress, social activist and

member of the Upper House of India=92s Parliament (Rajya Sabha). Shabana has

always been an outspoken opponent of both Muslim and Hindu fundamentalists in

India.

One of the few Indians to publicly take issue with the conservative

Shahi Imam, Shabana has earned the ire of Muslim fundamentalists for her

consistent support for a uniform civil code in India based on principles of gender justice. She has also been targeted by the Hindu Right for raising her

voice for the rights of India`s religious minorities. After the recent

killing of over 2,000 Muslim men, women and children in Gujarat and the

dispossession of another 150,000, she has been one of the leading critics of state complicity and participation in the violence.

There will be a counter-demonstration at the same time: PLEASE COME,

AND BRING MANY OTHERS. It is crucially important to tell the truth about what happened in Gujarat, even as the Hindu Right tries to obfuscate the issue.

See you there!

This is the document that`s being circulated:

``INDIAN AMERICANS FOR TRUTH AND FAIRNESS IN MEDIA

41-67 Judge Street (#5P) Elmhurst, N.Y. 11373

(718) 478-5735

PROTEST DEMONTRATION AGAINST SHABANA AZMI IN NEW YORK

Shabana Azmi has been invited by some of her Communists-

Islamists friends to talk about Ayodhya, Gujarat and Babri Maidan. We havedecided to stage a boisterous demonstration against her with view to expose her anti-Indian activities.

You are kindly requested to participate in the demonstration. We have

obtained Police permission to do so. The date, time and location of=20

the demonstration are as under:

Date: May 21st (Tuesday) Location: 65 Fifth Avenue, between 13th=20

and 14th

Street Time: 5:30 to 7:30 p.m.

If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to call the=20

undersigned. Brotherly yours,Narain Kataria

__________________________________________________

Shabana`s bio-data

SHABANA AZMI UNMASKED Shabana Azmi, daughter of Kaifi Azmi and Shaukat Azmi, both hard core Communists, is again in USA. Last time, when she was here, there were protests in many cities against her.Ostensibly, she has come to read a passage from ``Riot`` a book written by infamous Hindu-hater, Shashi Tharoor. [Mr. Tharoor has done more damage to Hindu society and India than Pakistan by publishing anti-Hindu and anti-Indian articles in mainstream media.] But behind this fa=C1ade, there is an ignoble intent and a hidden agenda hatched by deadly combine of Marxist-Islamists to denigrate Hindus, discredit India and strain Indo-American relations. This time, she has come to wash dirty linen in public at the invitation of her leftist friends, having closer links with Islamic fundamentalists in this country. In the interest of national security, both, Government of India and FBI should keep a watch on the contacts of this sophisticated woman. This notorious woman has soft corner for Islamic mili tants and Talibans. In order to protect Islamic terrorists, she unsuccessfully tried to block the passage of Prevention of Terrorist Act in Indian Parliament. For the same reason, she condemned American attack on Talibans. She is a very controversial and cunning person. This time, it seems, she is on a mission to create communal conflict and discord between Hindus and Moslem living in peace and harmony in this country.

Being a professional actress, she is very good at acting. She uses her charm to hoodwink gullible Indian-Americans in believing that she is a liberal Moslem woman. She practices sophistry and stratagem with equal vehemence. In India, she hobnobs with followers of Lenin and Stalin. When in USA, she struts around as a progressive Moslem women. It may sound paradoxical, but, in fact, at heart, she is a strange blend of a fundamentalist Moslem woman and a diehard Communist, out to defame Hindus and tarnish the image of India.

This crafty woman suffers from Hindu phobia and needs urgent counseling. At the mention of the word ``Hindu``, Shabana plunges into spontaneous rage and starts hurling scurrilous innuendoes on Hindus. She uses her dramatic skills to belittle and denigrate Hindu civilization. All her so called cultural and social activities (including Narbada Bachao Andolan and upliftment of slum-dwellers in Mumbai) are calculated to slander Hindus and create disdain in the younger generation for their Hindu heritage. With a view to insult Hindus, in the movie ``Tumhari Amrita``, Shabana played the role of a characterless Hindu woman addicted to drinking and many other vices, begging a married Muslim man to

have sex with him. In ``Fire``, the two lesbian girlswere deliberately and mischievously named Radha and Sita. In ``Earth``, she played the role of a Hindu widow in Varanasi 100 years ago. She is always in the forefront of anti-Hindu activities. She had taken a leading role in Safdar Hashmi Memorial Trust, a fundamentalist Islamic group) exhibition, in which Hindu deities were ridiculed and Bhagwan Ram and Mother Sita were depicted as brother and sister. Shabana is born with an animus against Hindu society. She is a hypocrite. Whenever Hindus are terrorized by Islamic militants, she either goes underground or maintains sphinx like silence. The following are a few examples: (a) when more than 500,000 Hindus and Sikhs were ethnically cleansed from Kashmir and Afghanistan, in 1993, when more than 400 Hindus were blown to bits in Bombay,(c) in 1998, 50 Hindus were bombed in Coimbatore, India, and (d) on Feb 27, 2001, 60 innocent Hindu women and children were burnt alive by Islamic terrorists.

In the backdrop of what has been said above, it is crystal clear that Shabana is a very dangerous woman and has the potential to create trouble in the society. It is not understood on what grounds this vicious lady has been allowed by American Embassy to come to this country and pollute the peaceful atmosphere.``

Ref Nazi Stormtrooper #: 111

[But then there are also a few of us who have trouble showing selective outrage at some goons spraying bullets on a bus full of civilians and other goons pulling civilians out of their homes and setting fire to them or slitting the bellies of pregnant women, WITH THE POLICE LOOKING THE OTHER WAY.

Sorry, the enemy number one are the sponsors of the latter set of goons.]

Just two days back, a bunch of your DMK cohorts were arrested in Pondicherry for disrupting a class where Sanskrit was being taught. Mind you, this was a class outside of the regular curriculum and the language was offered to those who might be interested in learning it.

Would these same fcukers have the ba!!s to disrupt a course in Urdu or Arabic? How about English, the language of the oppressors of the country? Would your friends be willing to disrupt a course in English?

You have an utterly mind-boggling capacity for self-deception and selective outrage.

NOBODY needs your crocodile tears for Gujarat.

#125 Akash

You and i disagree on who the real enemies are and how they must be dealt with. It`s clear to you who the ``aggrieving party`` is and who the enemy is. Fine. I otoh, think, that these distinctions are artificial. There are those who are enemies of humanity and the color of their passport is immaterial to me. For what it`s worth, there are rules regarding the conduct of wars but none for the conduct of pogroms. The latter are universally reviled and for a good reason methinks.

NYC CHOWKIES, FYI:

A Hindu right-wing group is planning to demonstrate during a staged reading of Shashi Tharoor`s novel `Riot` at the New School for Social Research on Tuesday, the 21st of May, between 5:30 and 7:30 p.m. They have been

circulating a hysterical and slanderous document about Shabana Azmi (see below) for the last few days.



You probably know of Shabana Azmi, Bombay actress, social activist and member

of the Upper House of India’s Parliament (Rajya Sabha). Shabana has always been an outspoken opponent of both Muslim and Hindu fundamentalists in India.

One of the few Indians to publicly take issue with the conservative Shahi Imam, Shabana has earned the ire of Muslim fundamentalists for her consistent support for a uniform civil code in India based on principles of gender justice. She has also been targeted by the Hindu Right for raising her voice for the rights of India’s religious minorities. After the recent killing of

over 2,000 Muslim men, women and children in Gujarat and the dispossession of another150,000, she has been one of the leading critics of state complicity and participation in the violence.



There will be a counter-demonstration at the same time: PLEASE COME, AND BRING MANY OTHERS. It is crucially important to tell the truth about what has happened in Gujarat, even as the Hindu Right tries to obfuscate the issue.



See you there!



This is the document that`s being circulated:



INDIAN AMERICANS FOR TRUTH AND FAIRNESS IN MEDIA



41-67 Judge Street (#5P) Elmhurst, N.Y. 11373



(718) 478-5735



PROTEST DEMONTRATION AGAINST SHABANA AZMI IN NEW

YORK

Shabana Azmi has been invited by some of her Communists-Islamists friends to talk about Ayodhya, Gujarat and Babri Maidan. We have

decided to stage a boisterous demonstration against her with a view to expose her anti-Indian activities.You are kindly requested to participate in the demonstration. We have obtained Police permission to do so. The date, time and location of the demonstration are as under:Date: May 21st (Tuesday) Location: 65 Fifth Avenue, between 13th and 14th

Street Time: 5:30 to 7:30 p.m.

If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to call the

undersigned.

Brotherly yours,

Narain Kataria



__________________________________________________

CHOWKIES - ran across this gentle story about a gentle peoples, thought you may enjoy it as well:

``Pakistan still shining through the crisis

By MORT ROSENBLUM

AP Special Correspondent

PESHAWAR, Pakistan (AP) – Twenty years ago, this ancient frontier town only felt like Dodge City. True, men with fierce mustaches carried fiercer knives. But they were far too polite to cut your throat.

Then the Afghans began to pour in, hundreds of thousands of them in waves, until they quickly surpassed a million. Their Pakistani brothers welcomed them with Muslim charity. But also trepidation.

The big news around in Peshawar, when I arrived in 1981, was an incident in a refugee camp. I checked the story with relief workers and they confirmed it.

An Afghan implored a Pakistani paramedic to help his ailing wife. The young man did. When he emerged from the Afghan`s tent, angry mullahs stopped him. After a hurried council, they stoned him to death.

It was a frightening case of East meets East, seemingly similar countries which share a religion and some history but, on the whole, look at life in totally different ways.

Those particular Afghan mullahs had a clear code: A man does not enter a woman`s tent unless he is married to her. Simple medical necessity was beside the point.

These days the neighboring countries remain centuries apart. Pakistanis still welcome Muslim brothers. But with great trepidation.

At a hospital in Quetta, Dr. Akhlaq Hussain struggles to save victims of a deadly virus spread by a tick, which could get out of hand if Afghan refugees stream into +Pakistan+ with their sheep and goats.

After an admirable career in public health, at 59 the medical director of a specialist hospital, he earns dlrs 300 a month and counts himself lucky. Orderlies make less than dlrs 50.

Pakistan has stretched itself to the breaking point to accommodate 2 million Afghans over the past 20 years, and now it is paying yet again.

``There`s no business in the cities, tourism is zero, and if we leave the country we are harassed as possible terrorists,`` Hussain says, smiling nonetheless. ``We have become the front line. Everyone is afraid.``

I had not returned to +Pakistan+ since 1981. Before coming back, scenes on television worried me. Had Pakistanis lost their great warmth and charm? Were they really now all fanatic anti-Western zealots?

Minutes off the plane, I was happily reassured. Islamabad, the capital, is still a pleasant leafy place where life would seem normal no matter what happened along the Afghan border.

The extremists seem to be a small minority in the context of a nation of 140 million. Even in Peshawar, these days a real Dodge City with enough weaponry to give any marshal nightmares, the atmosphere is still the old Pakistan.

At pro-Taliban rallies, wild-eyed organizers chant slogans demanding death to America. But, periodically, they glance with concern at American newspeople to be sure they aren`t offending their honored guests.

Pakistan was carved from a colonial map of India, mainly to separate Muslims from Hindus when British colonial rule ended in 1947. The border with Afghanistan split large tribes in half. Pakistan itself consisted of two chunks of land on either side of India until 1971, when the secessionist eastern portion became Bangladesh.

Pakistan has had a tough time of its 54 years of independence, what with military coups, assassinations, poverty, corruption and troublesome neighbors on every side. And yet, Pakistanis make the best of it.

Karachi, Pakistan`s monster city, has a population soaring over 10 million people, most of whom are far too busy scraping together a meal to worry about America`s problems with terrorism.

Lahore, the British jewel, clings to some of its old character in spite of urban sprawl, with intellectuals, gangsters, artists and jet-setters.

And then there was the distinguished-looking man hovering in the background while I talked to students at the University of Balochistan.

He turned out to be a senior professor of social sciences, married to a woman who loved America, where both had gone to college.

He said he wasn`t surprised to see young Pakistanis becoming radical Muslims, when the country`s education system had so little money and Islamic schools were free.

``Look,`` he said, pulling up aside his voluminous outer shirt to reveal a tattered wool sweater with huge holes in it.

The senior professor made dlrs 200 a month and spent 85 percent of it to educate his three children in schools that teach something besides the Quran and Islamist supremacy.

This amiable man, too modest to let his name be used, may not turn up on television burning George W. Bush in effigy, but he too is emblematic of Pakistan – the one of 20 years ago and the one of today