Confessions of a BJP Supporter

Ref nasah #: 269

[````I met a South Indian scientist living in southern California for the last 30 years.....He would like to cleanse India of all Muslims.````(harimau)

How nice!

what a ``scientist``! -- and what a ``south indian``! -- and what an august -- intellectually stimulating -- COMPANY you keet, my dear harimau miaN -- no wonder.]

You don`t get the point, do you?

Someone with no firsthand suffering during Partition, someone who has not even lived in India for 30 years, somebody with a record of accomplishments in his chosen field of research, feels that Muslims should be expelled from India.

You can dismiss him a syet anothyer Shockley, only this time from India.

Or you can try to understand why integration of Muslims into Indian society seems not to have worked for the dirt-poor Muslims, some of whom take to thuggery and set off bombs in Coimbatore, far removed from any Hindu-Muslim violence.

You can then try to understand BJP`s appeal across 12000 miles to people like him.

harimau #264 you answer my question with a question. That shows what a half-brained cockeyed piece of hindutva manure you are.

Ref nasah #: 269

[By the way have you met -- some North Indians on Chowk -- like, Shammi, Prem, Pankaj, Dost-mitter, soysauce, and many others -- you may like to seek THEIR company now -- suhbate saleh tora saleh kunud -- may do you some good.]

The trouble with you, nasah, is that you don`t like to face up to facts.

Right now I am reading ``Prejudice and Pride``, a book on how the history of Partition is taught and viewed on both sides of the border. This is written by Prof. Krishna Kumar of Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi and published in 2001. Quite recent and not an ancient book, one would think.

Prof. Kumar found that the students at JNU think India is a Hindu country. Let me quote from page 35:

``A remarkable and frequent line of questioning pursued by my students wonders that if Pakistan is an Islamic state, how can India be a secular state? The logic of this question is purely arithmetical, namely, if Muslims broke India in 1947 to establish their own nation, surely what was left must be a primarily Hindu country. This neat conclusion does not allow the presence of a substantial Muslim population in India to be used as a sufficient reason for reconsideration. The point that India is a pluralist society, structurally in favor of religio-cultural diversity, finds appreciation only among a limited few of my university-level students. Many instinctively refer to Pakistan, saying that if India were truly pluralist, there would be no need for Pakistan. This fundamental position enables them to ask why India cannot be described as a country of the Hindus when Pakistan openly calls itself a home of the Muslims. Thus, they come back to the original doubt -- that secularism is a rhetorical device to win a political game. The name of the game, they say, is `vote banks`.

Undoubtedly, this kind of argument is partly a reflection of the general cynicism that educated youth feel towards politicians. The institution of elections has been seriously discredited in the eyes of the educated youth. Though disenchantment with politics is articulated in sharper terms by those who have attended English-medium schools, it is a general phenomenon. Young people use their awaremess of `vote banks` to debunk the value-foundations of the state, including secularism. Such extended use of the `vote banks` theory has other implications as well. Just as the vote bank of the Muslim minority requires the policy of secularism to cover it, the vote bank of the lower-caste population requires the high-sounding policy of social justice to hide it -- so goes a popular argument. Indeed, one may well wonder which state policy the educated youth of the urban middle class detest more -- secularism or reservation?....``

So much for your opinion of how North India has finally come out of its Islamo-phobia while South Indians are acquiring it. Read that quote again. It is the English-educated urban middle class that feels that secularism is vote-banks politics. Not some poor bhaiyya from UP. In fact, I will bet 10 to 1 that the UP bhaiyya is more in favor of secularism, and that too instinctively.

As to that thayoli Soy Sauce, he is from Tamil Nadu, the ultimate in vote bank politics. He has gotten his professional education because of his caste, he has got no frikking brains to talk about, and he and his cohorts are for continuation of vote bank politics. His benefactors, the DMK, ran Nagore Hanifa, a Muslim, in yesterday`s by-election in Vaniyambadi where Muslims are a large population and form the critical vote bank. I don`t need this mufukka`s company or crapola advice on any matter, least of all, on appeasement of minorities of any kind. When this goddamn mufukka has the ba!!s to say there is no Allah -- just like he is saying there is no Rama or Krishna -- then he is in a position to tell me that he is secular. When this a$$hole campaigns against reservations, then he can claim to be above vote-bank politics. In the treatment of the forward communities, if the DMK has not built crematoria for burning people alive, that is because the world will look askance at that. Short of that, Soy Sauce and Co are nothing but Nazi stormtroopers. Fcuk them, I say!

PS. Nagore Hanifa lost the elction. The Muslims of Vaniyambadi voted in favor of the ADMK candidate. Jayalalitha had the ba!!s to run a Hindu as her candidate and he won. That is secularism in action for you.

PPS. Hey mufukka Soy Sauce. Do you know that if you want to be admitted to ADMK, you need to prostrate yourself in front of Jayalalitha? It warms the cockles of my heart to see you doing that. You know, that was the complaint of Doctor Artist Leader, that lower-caste people had to prostrate themselves in front of a brahmin. It is nice to know that, after 70 years of anti-Brahmin propaganda, you have revived the tradition and are prostrating yourself in front a brahmin woman. So much for your Self-Respect Movement!

Nag #268

This kid was in Chicago for the millennium time capsule project (youngest photographer) and there were loud happy wah-wah sounds in the indian US community and press about him. I remembered the name and that he had been from Springdales (one of our traditional rivals in school) I went to Army Public School (Dhaula Kuan, N.Delhi) & Delhi Public School (Mathura Road, N.Delhi) - bahut saal pehle ki baat hai :)

Sad what the fella`s project is now - but we need young eyes like his to awaken people to evil amongst us.

Another link for Master Sahir

http://www.smashing.com/millenniumphoto/english/exhibit_chicago_opens.html

Wonder if the traffic on the Panchkuan Rd/Ridge Rd/Pusa Road roundell (where Springdales is) is still as bad - and what does the famous AMUL billboard say ... ?

````I met a South Indian scientist living in southern California for the last 30 years.....He would like to cleanse India of all Muslims.````(harimau)

How nice!

what a ``scientist``! -- and what a ``south indian``! -- and what an august -- intellectually stimulating -- COMPANY you keet, my dear harimau miaN -- no wonder.

there was a time when we Northerners -- and Northeasterners -- in India felt so wretched and ashamed -- after 1947 -- used to envy South so much -- for their education, sophistication, communal harmony -- for peace and tranquility -- no riots, -- some caste discrimination may be -- but little religious bigotry!!

We used to wish – if we could saw off Punjab, Delhi, UP, Bihar and Bengal -- push them either in the Bay of Bengal or in the Indian Ocean -- then dig and transplant Kerala, Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu in our cleaner Indo- Gangetic plains.

Not any anymore -- NOW from your posts it looks like -- the tables have turned -- now it`s South`s turn to look wretched and shameful.

now the South of such “PURE” scientists with such ``PURE`` ideas – if things don’t get better than THIS -- may need to be sawed off and pushed back floating -- beyond Kala Pani -- beyond diego garcia -- into the far corners Indian Ocean.

By the way have you met -- some North Indians on Chowk -- like, Shammi, Prem, Pankaj, Dost-mitter, soysauce, and many others -- you may like to seek THEIR company now -- suhbate saleh tora saleh kunud -- may do you some good.

Nasah

You are one of the kindest hearts I have come across. Amongst innumerable Hindus/Muslims/Indians/Pakis you are a humanist. Never let your flame of faith in the goodness of humanity extinguish. `Coz when it does life will not be worth living any more. My prayers are with you Sir. Amen

Harimau

``I was talking to an elderly gentleman in his 70s in Bombay. We are talking about a person with a PhD from the USA, a consultant to an international organization who in fact had just returned from a trip to Bangkok so we are not talking about some ignoramus. He felt that Gujarat was instigated by Pak agents since Pakistanis don`t believe Hindus and Muslims can live together and they wanted to prove it. So that is ONE belief that is current in India``

I dont care who instigated Gujrat, Pak or otherwise. What frightens me is what happened afterwards. What happened puts ALL OF US to shame. How can one human be so full of hatred against another. AND DONT FORGET THAT THE MUSLIMS WHO SUFFERED WERE NOT CULPRITS(GODHRA?) BUT AHMEDABAD MUSLIMS. I pray to you Sir, in the name of humanity, I appeal to your conscience, please do NOT support the murderers. There is NO MINORITY APPEASEMENT in India. All some p-secs did was appeasement of certain fundamentalist sections to gain votes. And innocent Muslims have paid for it. Dont debase yourself to subhuman level, I appeal to the goodness inside you.

Ref Akash #: 262

[Nasah#250

I suspect Harimau had some connection with RSS at some time. Look how all these RSS veterans raise the bogey of ``minority appeasement`` to justify their bigoted ideas.]

Who is the real fascist here? You who cannot tolerate opinions that you do not like to see aired or me who has done more to help people in a real sense in India without worrying about that person`s background?

Ref nasah #: 260

[Then what kind of mood is your India right now -- burning minorities alive?]

Let me further answer this.

I met a South Indian scientist living in southern California for the last 30 years. A man who had no direct first-hand experience with the 1947 Partition riots and thus has no reason to hate Muslims as a whole. He would like to cleanse India of all Muslims. Romair likes to think that South Indians have Vulcan-like logic. Well, I guess this Vulcan`s logic is that Muslims have their own countries in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Another couple of South Indians are all for a nuclear war with Pakistan. I guess their logic is: better to take 30 nukes now than take 300 nukes 5 years from now. One can`t argue with that. In fact, a nuclear war should have been fought in 1989 when Pakistan might have had 3 untested nukes.

One South Indian in US I know is raising money to train and send out Hindu ``Dharm Veers`` who would evangelize among the Hindus to ensure that they don`t convert to Christianity. He is incensed that in his town, one local church raised a million dollars for conversion activities in India.

These are little snapshots of what people are thinking.

Do you now understand what I mean when I say nobody is in a mood to appease any minorities?

Naganatheshwar #254

Read more about young Sahir at his schools website

(Springdales, Dhaula Kuan N. Delhi)

http://www.springdales.com/in_showcase.htm

Ref Mullah321 #: 261

[harimau #255 Did you wash your face yet, like I suggested in my previous post?]

Did you get your radiation suit from Allah yet?

Ref nasah #: 260

[````Nobody in India is in a mood to appease any minority anymore````(harimau)

Then what kind of mood is your India right now -- burning minorities alive?]

Nope. They just don`t want any whiney ``leaders``, whether they belong to the Muslim League, Congress, Telugu Desam Party or the Communist Party of India (Marxist) crying buckets over ``Muslim rights``. Is anybody crying over ``Christian rights`` or ``Jain rights`` or, for that matter, ``Hindu rights``? Nope. So, the attitude is: get on with life.

As for the mood in Madras, nobody gives a damn about Pakistan, its nuclear threat, or Gujarat. The Anti-Hindu publishes articles daily about the culpability of Hindus in the Gujarat riots and nobody cares.

I was talking to an elderly gentleman in his 70s in Bombay. We are talking about a person with a PhD from the USA, a consultant to an international organization who in fact had just returned from a trip to Bangkok so we are not talking about some ignoramus. He felt that Gujarat was instigated by Pak agents since Pakistanis don`t believe Hindus and Muslims can live together and they wanted to prove it. So that is ONE belief that is current in India.

As I returned from work this afternoon, there were two guys on a motorcycle with the name `Basheer` painted on the rearview mirror. They were unafraid that someone might catch them and set them alight. From the name, I would think that they are Muslims so Muslims seem not to worry too much in this part of the country.

[Tell me harimau honestly -- are you a family member of the sangh parivar? -- because the rhetoric sounds familiar.]

Funny you should ask. Just as I am typing this reply, my niece gets a call from her friend and I ask for her name when I answer the phone. It is Rashida. No, I was not shocked that my niece would have a Muslima friend close enough to call her at home.

Our Muslim driver moved out of the room attached to our garage to his own rented home last week and my mom went to his place at his request and did the South Indian moving-in ceremony of ceremoniously heating up the first pot of milk and offering it to the gods and sharing it with all those present. We of course had great fun at our mom`s expense because my mom doesn`t eat/drink outside of the house and yet did not decline the driver`s request! This is the driver whose children`s (one daughter, one son) education we are taking care of. He feels guilty that the other driver (who is a Hindu) doesn`t get this benefit (well, his kid isn`t doing as well in school) and asked whether he could request us to support only his daughter and pay for the other guy`s son`s education. Our earlier Muslim driver called to thank us for getting his son a job as a software engineer at Rs. 7500 per month salary. Again, we had partially funded that kid`s education so he could get a degree in engineering and get moving upward on the socio-economic ladder. We don`t care what your name is. We feel obligated to do something to help others when we have the financial ability to do so and when the other party shows they deserve such support. I only wish that ALL the Muslims of India show the same dedication to studies that our drivers` children have shown because that is proof that you can get ahead on your own without waiting for some crumbs from some lousy politicians.

Nasah#250

I suspect Harimau had some connection with RSS at some time. Look how all these RSS veterans raise the bogey of ``minority appeasement`` to justify their bigoted ideas.

harimau #255 Did you wash your face yet, like I suggested in my previous post?

````Nobody in India is in a mood to appease any minority anymore````(harimau)

Then what kind of mood is your India right now -- burning minorities alive?

Tell me harimau honestly -- are you a family member of the sangh parivar? -- because the rhetoric sounds familiar.

Ref Layman #: 257

[What`s your point? That a legal tiff between Prince of Arcot and the Wakf board is the same as a mob pulling down the Babri Masjid? The govt has pulled down temples too, for road expansion, illegal construction etc. But a mob pulling down Babri Masjid broke the law.]

Oh, I suppose I have to explain the context to people like you.

Wasn`t there a legal dispute, between Muslims and Hindus, pending before the courts regarding Babri Masjid? And one side took it upon itself to tear down the mosque. In Trichy, the situation was there is a dispute between two MUSLIM parties and one party decided to tear down the walls of the mosque.

I kinow you are trying to split hairs here but let me repeat what the commonly-held opinion is: it is one law if it is Muslims and another for the Hindus.

Nobody in India is in a mood to appease any minority anymore. Despite what you read in The Anti-Hindu.

Harimau 256

``Those couple of thousand Muslims you want killed each year: by any chance, would you want them to be Shias? Do Ahmadiyyas count as Muslims? How about Aga Khanis?``

Any kind as long as they claim to be muslims.You see I am very broad minded.Heck you could even

kill a few hundred sikhs as well like `84.Did you

ask uncle Sudarshan about the Muslims and the

Security risk to India.

PS:Did you hear about the bomb blasts last night in Ahmedabad,and the promptness by the Modi Govt

to investigate???

Sweet dreams.

harimau #242:

``By the way, all of you Indian and Pakistani a$$holes who have been ranting and raving about Babri Masjid, here is something I would like you to comment on if you have the ba!!s: A mosque in Trichy in Tamil Nadu had its outer walls pulled down by the Prince of Arcot Endowment (yes, the same guys who sold off southern India to the British and French in the 18th century) which is disputing its ownership with the Tamil Nadu Wakf Board.``

What`s your point? That a legal tiff between Prince of Arcot and the Wakf board is the same as a mob pulling down the Babri Masjid? The govt has pulled down temples too, for road expansion, illegal construction etc. But a mob pulling down Babri Masjid broke the law.

BTW, Khamkwa, Gujarat has already started reaping the results of the recent communal massacres.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_2014000/2014044.stm

Bomb blasts rock Indian state

Layman #247 you write ``when the BJP govt decided to test nukes, they were not doing it behind anyone`s back``

I never said that what the BJP did was or was not based on their previously announced manifesto on Kashmir and on nukes. I did not say anything about the substance of this policy either. All I said was that the policy of nuclearization is a self-defeating one for India, even as it has proved a major asset for Pakistan given the win-lose (as opposed to the vastly different win-win approach) nature of govt policies in both countries.

you write ``, but I think they have been honest in wanting good relations with Pak, ``

Agreed. But after Kargill, I think the hawks in BJP took over. Policy options other than ``nastiness as usual`` were never explored - notably, the policy option of strengthening democratic forces in Pakistan as the US and EU are trying to do (as I have been saying over the past few days).

you write ``Even if India does not retaliate this time, Pakistan will suffer the consequences of its own actions anyway.``

Agreed. Even as I applaud the test missiles which are clear warning shots designed to keep BJP at bay, I feel sick when I think of the number of schools that could have been built instead of the missile. But when someone is trying to burn your house down, you dont worry about the water bill.

you write ``Advani said recently that India should find a `different way` of fighting Pakistan. I think that is a code-word for a reverse proxy-war. I totally agree.``

This is a continuation of the win-lose strategy that India has tried in different ways: diplomatic, military. Think win-win instead (you probably can, I doubt if Advani is emotionally capable of that though. Too bad.) That is the only strategy that can realistically work.

tvarad #251 You are reinforcing my point, even though you did not get it. My point is simply that the massive Indian military forces now collected on our borders are today being held back by military initiatives and expenditures made by Bhutto, Zia, Benazir, Nawaz Sharif and Musharaff. I am not saying that these individuals all live happily ever after. While they did not benefit from this, for once they did something for which I as a Pakistani am grateful - allowed us to stand up to the bullying attitude of BJP. They can huff and they can puff, but they cant blow the house down for Pakistan without getting blown themselves.

Ref khamkhwa #: 246

[One request..Plz kill a couple of thousand muslims every once in a while to keep our raw material supply regular,coz as you know we donot send infiltrators across our borders. ;-) ]

Those couple of thousand Muslims you want killed each year: by any chance, would you want them to be Shias? Do Ahmadiyyas count as Muslims? How about Aga Khanis?

Ref Mullah321 #: 248

[harimau #242 I have not bothered to read your post after the first line.]

Yes, you have.

Any comments on the destruction of the outer walls of the Trichy Mosque by the Prince of Arcot Endowment?

I don`t think so.

Shall we discuss Babri Masjid instead and the intolerance of the Hindus?

Please, please, quote me those verses from the Quran about doing no harm to those who believe in other religions.

Do you really think that the Pakistani nukes are duds and will not harm the unbelieving Hindus?

Do you think that Allah will be issueing radiation suits to the Muslims of Delhi, Lucknow, Kanpur, Bhopal and Mumbai so that they will be miraculously saved?

What is the procedure for getting one of these radiation garments? Will Allah issue them directly or will he go through intermediaries such as mullahs, maulvis and maulanas? Will they be all-enclosing like the burqa? Will chaste Muslimas stop casting covetous glances at men because of the radiation suits and retain purity in their hearts? Is this Allah`s true intention?

13 is a very impressionable age in a boys life.You remember like a photographic nmemory everything compared to in later life when life passes by unoticed unremarkably like a boring drab book or movie ......

HORROR THROUGH TEEN?S LENS



HORROR THROUGH TEEN?S LENS



BY FREDERICK NORONHA Panaji, May 27: Shocked by the violence and brutality that tore apart the social fabric of Gujarat, a 15-year-old now tells the world his story as seen through the lens. Titled And They Killed Him Again, Sahir Raza?s roaming exhibition contains 79 stills from the Gujarat carnage. A student of Class XI, Sahir says he took the photographs while in Gujarat between April 7 and 10. ?I?ve been taking photographs since (the age of) nine,? says Sahir. He used a Nikon FE camera, and used up some 20 rolls of 24 exposures each to etch on film the images he wanted the world to take note of. For a 15-year-old, the situation was complex. So, to make his point, Sahir included a lot of subjects: victims of the carnage, relief camps where an estimated one lakh largely-Muslim victims have taken refuge, burnt houses, buildings and shops, even abandoned bodies. Did he face any tense moment? ?While shooting, not really,? recalls Sahir. ?But, at one shop I happened to call my father abbu (the Urdu word for dad). Suddenly, the shopkeeper started shouting out to people: ?Here?s this boy who?s calling his father abbu, he must be a Muslim....? ?It was very scary and the feeling remains with you. To realise that just the name of a person is enough to get him murdered,? says he. ?I?ve never seen a carnage before. My photographs should raise awareness of how bad the situation is in Gujarat. Just being there scares you. People (benumbed by the wanton brutality and now huddled in relief camps) have not been to their homes for 40 to 50 days, even for a look,? says Sahir. The exhibition has so far travelled from Delhi to Mumbai and now to Goa, from where Sahir plans to head for Orissa and Kerala. While young Sahir worked on the photographs, his father Gauhar Raza hastily put together a 34-minute video-film titled Junoon ke Badte Kadam (Evil Stalks the Land). For Sahir?s father, this is not the first such film. An electrical engineer from the Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi and a scientist by profession, Gauhar has 12 video films to his credit. Based on scientific research and development, his earlier films dealt with topics like eminent Indian scientists (Homi Bhabha and S.S. Bhatnagar), computer virus, computers in India, nuclear disarmament, and related themes. A film on communal violence was, therefore, for him a different proposition. ?This is an extremely important subject that has to do more with the future of the country,? says Gauhar. According to Gauhar, though the English media is doing a good job of building public awareness of the ghastly events in Gujarat, ?one per cent? of the enormity of the situation is being portrayed. He fears that intense religion-based intolerance could yield an Indian form of fascism, just as race-based hatred led to fascism in Germ

any. ?I come from Aligarh, the city of riots, and in 1984 saw Delhi burn (during the anti-Sikh riots),? he says, adding that the terror unleashed in Gujarat was much more shocking and at a much larger scale.

w

shammi #243 Agreed. The current situation is clearly a failure on the part of many individuals, starting from partition, on both sides of the border. A proper analysis of exactly who made the what decisions and how they proved to be wrong would require many years of study, I think.

The fact is that the choices one faces today as a Pakistani are quite limited - face occupation by a hostile, foreign army or else take `em down with you. It is when faced with such a choice that I am grateful for something that I would condemn if the choices were different: nukes, missiles and a large army. I hate to think what this means in terms of resources that should have gone to alleviating poverty. But that is for later, perhaps after October. If cities in both countries are not smoldering ashes by then... (and let us pray to God no).

harimau #242 I have not bothered to read your post after the first line.

I suggest you go wash your face (to use an urdu phrase), and learn how to write like a man, not like a hindutva rat (to use an english phrase).

RE: Reply #: 239 tahmed321

``As a Pakistani, I must admit that I am grateful today to each one of our leaders from Bhutto on down to Musharaff for one thing: each one of them persevered and finally built the nuclear bomb despite great international presures, and also built up conventional forces that are quite capable of defending Pakistan even without use of nuclear weapons.``



Let`s see what happened to all of these super-patriots:

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto: hanged (poor guy didn`t even have the time to taste the grass he`d promised to eat for the sake of the bomb)

Zia-ul-Haq: blown up (at least he tasted some mangoes, though not the eating variety)

Benazir Bhutto: exiled

Nawaz Sharif: exiled

Musharaff: ?

Looks like this bomb-building thing is quite hazardous for the health of it`s champions!

Tahmed321

India must indeed to do her part to promote democracy. And the General?

FYI-

Pakistan has failed to offer even the tiniest olive branch - The Independent (UK)

``...the four-star general, who has risen so convincingly to a succession of crises since the events of 11 September, offered little in the way of hope or reassurance in a disappointing address...``

http://argument.independent.co.uk/leading_articles/story.jsp?story=299604

``...Stocks fall over Musharraf speech

(Updated at 1100 PST) KARACHI: Country?s main share index fell over two percent in early trade on Tuesday, with brokers saying an overnight speech by President Pervez Musharraf was likely to raise tension with India...``

tahmed321 #239:

``As a Pakistani, I must admit that I am grateful today to each one of our leaders from Bhutto on down to Musharaff for one thing: each one of them persevered and finally built the nuclear bomb despite great international presures, and also built up conventional forces that are quite capable of defending Pakistan even without use of nuclear weapons. As a result today Pakistan is able to look at BJP in the eye and force it to back off from its threats to break up Pakistan. I say this even as I decry (as I always have) the military expenditures when we have so much suffering and poverty in our country. But what is the choice?? Surely BJP needs to take a fresh look - not just at its policies, but its entire way of thinking that gives rise to this policy of destroying Pakistan (an unachievable goal, as you recognize in your posts I think), and hopefully will reach the same conclusion that we seem to be arriving at in this discussion: that rather than continue its failed efforts to get the rest of the world to see Pakistan as they see Pakistan (i.e. an enemy to be destroyed), and rather than trying to destroy Pakistan (which it cannot), it is time BJP should take the high road and seek to promote peace and political progress in Pakistan and also live up to the ideals of secularism within India.``

Dude, dude, dude, BJP has been in power only since when? 1998. Pak military expenditure has always been high, even before BJP came to power, so dont give us that excuse.

The BJP election manifesto right since its 13-day stint in 1996 said the following things: a) Make India a nuclear power b) Scrap Art 370 of the Constitution that gave J&K special status within India. Hence, when the BJP govt decided to test nukes, they were not doing it behind anyone`s back, they were not going back on any `assurances` to the Americans (as had been mentioned by someone on Chowk), they were fulfilling their manifesto.

Despite having hardline views like scrapping Art 370, you must admit that BJP (and specifically Vajpayee) tried for peace, which no previous govt did - neither Janata Dal nor Congress nor VP Singh nor the Gujral doctrine loving IK Gujral. Pak was a democracy then, nothing stopped these govts from pursuing peace. Through Lahore, BJP publicly raised hopes among Indians for peace and friendly relations with Pak. It also sought to reassure Pak that we respected its existence when Vajpayee visited the Minar or whatever it was. You will have to give the BJP credit for that. You (and I) can demonise the BJP for their communalism, Gujarat, Babri Masjid, but I think they have been honest in wanting good relations with Pak, more than any govt in the recent past. And doing something concrete about it.

I dont need to repeat the story of Lahore, Kargil, Agra etc. But when even sane Pakistanis like you demonise the BJP (in the context of Indo-Pak relations), you are doing two things:

1. Ignoring the constant militant attacks in J&K and elsewhere by militants trained and supported by Pakistan. Which Indian govt (least of all a BJP one) can bear such attacks indefinitely? Sooner or later, these attacks will hurt us badly and that is when we will be forced to retaliate. Surely you cannot complain when that happens.

2. The fact that most Indians, not all of whom are BJP supporters, are pissed at Pakistan for its support of militancy in J&K. Even Indian Muslims are pissed, in case you had any doubt. People like me who had no idea about Pak a few years ago, till its proxy war, are pissed at Pakistan. This will continue irrespective of whether BJP is in power or not.

The existence of nuclear weapons has encouraged Pakistan to punch above its weight. Even if India does not retaliate this time, Pakistan will suffer the consequences of its own actions anyway. Its economy is hurting because of the jihadis, there is no investment, only foreign aid and rescheduled loans, its society is also getting affected by the jihadis. India can withstand the terrorist attacks and survive. Each attack in J&K will only anger the locals against Pakistan even more, which is good for India.

Advani said recently that India should find a `different way` of fighting Pakistan. I think that is a code-word for a reverse proxy-war. I totally agree. Pakistan is as vulnerable as India, if not more. There are enough disaffected people in Pakistan itself who can be employed to carry out terrorist attacks in Pakistan. Remember, with India`s larger resources, we can conduct a low-cost proxy war indefinitely, if we put our mind to it. And since we wont be sending jihadis from our side, we wont have to worry about `blowback`.

Harimau

Pakistan does not need to send any more infiltrators in India.Now we have got enough raw material in the camps of Gujarat to take care of you from within you.Think about that and have sweet dreams.

PS. One request..Plz kill a couple of thousand muslims every once in a while to keep our raw material supply regular,coz as you know we donot send infiltrators across our borders. ;-)

Harimau # 242

``Let me put one more thought for you all to reflect on: you can send the bearded jihadis into Kashmir because India has 140 million Muslims and we can`t easily tell if the guy is a local or an infiltrator. India cannot send terrorists into Pakistan because there are not enough Hindus and Sikhs there for Indian infiltrators to melt into.``

It makes me very sad to hear of your majboori.Got an idea,why don`t you send infiltrators from the 140 million muslims into Pakistan for terrorist activities.They will be perfectly lost in the Muhajir crowd.But maybe you will never do that

because ALL INDIAN MUSLIMS are a security risk.If

you don`t believe me ask His Holiness Sudarshan.

Nuclear bombs only guarantee MAD or MAM(mutually assured madness), never peace. Peace can only come when we learn to empathise with each other`s concerns and fears and reach a mutually acceptable decision. But these things require too much sagacity especially in a charged environment, methinks.

Re: Tahmed321

``...I must admit that I am grateful today to each one of our leaders from Bhutto on down to Musharaff for one thing: each one of them persevered and finally built the nuclear bomb ...``

If nuclear weapons lead to lasting peace, and prevent a war of aggression from either side, then I would be grateful too. If however, they encourage adventurism (like Kargil, or continued infiltration) that may spark a wider war then perhaps we may both come to regret their use.

Ref Mullah321 #: 239

tahmed321

[As a Pakistani, I must admit that I am grateful today to each one of our leaders from Bhutto on down to Musharaff for one thing: each one of them persevered and finally built the nuclear bomb despite great international presures, and also built up conventional forces that are quite capable of defending Pakistan even without use of nuclear weapons. As a result today Pakistan is able to look at BJP in the eye and force it to back off from its threats to break up Pakistan. I say this even as I decry (as I always have) the military expenditures when we have so much suffering and poverty in our country. But what is the choice?? Surely BJP needs to take a fresh look - not just at its policies, but its entire way of thinking that gives rise to this policy of destroying Pakistan (an unachievable goal, as you recognize in your posts I think), and hopefully will reach the same conclusion that we seem to be arriving at in this discussion: that rather than continue its failed efforts to get the rest of the world to see Pakistan as they see Pakistan (i.e. an enemy to be destroyed), and rather than trying to destroy Pakistan (which it cannot), it is time BJP should take the high road and seek to promote peace and political progress in Pakistan and also live up to the ideals of secularism within India.]

Finally, the mullah has shed his mufti and can be seen in his full bearded glory.

Which country has chosen a path of confrontation ever since its birth? Which country has started 3 wars in the subcontinent? Which country`s sole aim is the reduction of the other country to chaos through random acts of terrorism?

Did India send anyone to attack your National Assembly? Is India paying off jihadis to kill people at random in Peshawar?

India is not threatening to break up Pakistan. Pakistan did that and is continuing to do that on its own very well, thank you.

There is no way for India to get Pakistan to become a democracy. So long as Uncle Sam needs a base for its adventures in Asia, Pakistan will be a willing tool because its generals can get rich renting bases to the US. The US has no interest in democracy in Pakistan. Pakistanis have no interest in democracy in Pakistan. Why should India have any interest in democracy in Pakistan?

Remember one thing, you idiots. If you use all your bombs and kill 150 million Indians, there will still be an India. When India retaliates and kills 150 million fcuking (or non-fcuking, as the case may be with the jihadis who remain virginal in anticipation of the 72 houris) Pakistanis, will there be a Pakistan?

Let me put one more thought for you all to reflect on: you can send the bearded jihadis into Kashmir because India has 140 million Muslims and we can`t easily tell if the guy is a local or an infiltrator. India cannot send terrorists into Pakistan because there are not enough Hindus and Sikhs there for Indian infiltrators to melt into. What do you think is the logical conclusion?

By the way, all of you Indian and Pakistani a$$holes who have been ranting and raving about Babri Masjid, here is something I would like you to comment on if you have the ba!!s: A mosque in Trichy in Tamil Nadu had its outer walls pulled down by the Prince of Arcot Endowment (yes, the same guys who sold off southern India to the British and French in the 18th century) which is disputing its ownership with the Tamil Nadu Wakf Board. The Board moved the Madras High Court for an injunction which has been granted. Moral of the story: if you want to destroy a mosque, pay off the Muslims; they will do it, there will be no riots and there will be no outcry and best of all, we won`t have that flaming idiot Headshrinker having verbal diarrhea on Chowk.

Zafar #236
``If Pakistan had a fully functioning and well established democracy it would be VERY difficult for India to sweep our political shenanigans in Kashmir (which sparked the current state of violence there) under the table, or to claim that they did not disqualify us from sovreignty there.``

Zafar, you are absolutely right. However, its more complicated than that. If you ask why does Pakistan not have a fully functioning and well-established democracy, the Pakistani Army`s investedness in Kashmir will come up as one major reason(`65/Pak`s Afghan policy/Kargil, etc). If you ask why Pakistan adopted a certain approach to J& Kashmir, which led to the events there, again, the lack of political process and democracy in Pakistan has a lot to do with it. The difficulty with finding a solution today also has a lot to do with the Pakistani Army`s disdain/distrust of free political process. The heavyhandedness of an Army is visible as it was in its cut-down-todays-chosen-opponents approach to Afghan affairs too.

In short, India`s problems in Kashmir as well as Pakistan`s lack of democracy have a LOT to do with each other, though not everything.

As for Indian parties preferring not to have democracy and stability in Pakistan, I donot believe thats right whichever the party in power BJP or nonBJP. If it had been so, we would been currently funding a few armed movements in Pakistan. Altaf Hussain and Benazir Bhutto in the recent past have made statements which indicated they wouldnot mind capitalizing on an Indian connection, but the NDA government didnot let BB even visit last year, or if so restricted it to a `religious private visit`(if I remember/understood it right). There is no other way forward for India except a democratic Pakistan at peace with itself, this seems to be accepted as principle, IMO.

The problem with an external power, esp India, in actively supporting any point of view about Pakistan`s internal affairs is IMHO, firstly that the Pakistani Army and the political class are mutual antagonists trying to delegitimize each other in the political power play, with no sign of reconciliation. So any outsider supporting one side would only make things worse.

Secondly, the Pakistani public is itself ambiguous about military government vs elected government. I remember being called anti-Pakistan and anti-Muslim on chowk on many occasions for criticising the Pakistani Army`s and Musharraf`s (and Paki elites`) ``democratic`` credentials.

Zafar/Layman/Shammi/rsridhar: Thanks for your comments on the suggestion that the most pragmatic policy for the BJP government would be to promote democracy in Pakistan. I think it is correct to say that your reactions are generally supportive of the idea, but there are some doubts if India is in a position to influence anything within Pakistan. Your posts were written at the same time as my post #231 below, where I add further points that support the suggestion.

As a Pakistani, I must admit that I am grateful today to each one of our leaders from Bhutto on down to Musharaff for one thing: each one of them persevered and finally built the nuclear bomb despite great international presures, and also built up conventional forces that are quite capable of defending Pakistan even without use of nuclear weapons. As a result today Pakistan is able to look at BJP in the eye and force it to back off from its threats to break up Pakistan. I say this even as I decry (as I always have) the military expenditures when we have so much suffering and poverty in our country. But what is the choice?? Surely BJP needs to take a fresh look - not just at its policies, but its entire way of thinking that gives rise to this policy of destroying Pakistan (an unachievable goal, as you recognize in your posts I think), and hopefully will reach the same conclusion that we seem to be arriving at in this discussion: that rather than continue its failed efforts to get the rest of the world to see Pakistan as they see Pakistan (i.e. an enemy to be destroyed), and rather than trying to destroy Pakistan (which it cannot), it is time BJP should take the high road and seek to promote peace and political progress in Pakistan and also live up to the ideals of secularism within India.

bluenoon: I have read your post too, and I think you are looking for an argument, a chance to air your pretensions about the situation within India, and an exchange of insults. Not a discussion. As such, there is nothing to discuss. I wish you a pleasant day.

re:Reply #: 229

shammi,

That is how i feel about the present situation. Take it or leave it, it is your choice. Thanks for your advice anyway.

Sridhar

Re: Tahmed321

``...the BJP government was content to paint Pakistan as an enemy country etc. (after Kargil) and things have gone downhill from there...``

Even after Kargil, Vajpayee did invite Musharraf to Agra, and was prepared to do business with him. This was in July of last year, less than 12 months ago. The BJP govt.`s attempts are a reflection of two things -- (a) India`s reluctance to wage a full scale war without using diplomatic leverage first, and (b) Lack of trust in Musharraf as a negotiator with integrity.

``...encourage steps being taken for the restoration of democracy in Pakistan...``

How can a country that views itself as defending against a campaign of `bleeding through a thousand cuts` simultaneously strengthen democracy in what it views as an adversary? The only time a party has worked to restore democracy in an adversary is after the other side has been completely defeated (e.g. Germany, Japan, Taleban), and its past policies discredited (USSR)? Given this reality, and Musharraf`s hold on power, how could India do anything?

``...is basically what the US and EU are doing in dealing with Musharaff...``

The US put Musharraf on notice immediately after 9/11 -- with us or against us. It was only when Musharraf worked overtime to assuage US` security concerns that any Western help in strengthening democracy was forthcoming. The US was, I believe, quite prepared to go to war with Pakistan had he not complied. The US/EU were not worried about democracy in Pakistan, and it was not more than an afterthought. India`s concern remains infiltration of armed men, and Musharraf has not worked to assuage Indian concerns in the same manner. What choices does it leave India with?

Zafar #222 Agreed that BJPs policies after Kargil (i.e. to try to get Pakistan isolated and branded as a terrorist state) are not in India`s interest (and they have failed anyway). I dont think these policies are in BJP`s interest as a political party either, I think (since it remains a weak coalition government).

I think the sad truth is that anti-Pakistan policies (as opposed to pre-pakistan democracy policies that BJP could have taken after musharaff took over, as I have discussed in the note to Shammi below) of BJP are driven not by statesmanlike view of what is in the best interests of India in the long run. I dont think they are even driven by a rational calculus of what is in the best interests BJP and/or of India in the medium or short run. From all indications, these policies are simply driven by a blind hatred for Pakistan (and probably due to pressures on Vajpayee, who I think sincerely wants peace, by the religious and nationalist extremists in his party). This is the only conclusion I can draw when I read the bellicose talk of the Indian leaders, matched by the its costly buildup of naval and armed forces, and then see it all come to a halt when reality finally hits home. There is no shortage of very smart people in India. But smart people sometimes do very stupid things. Particularly when driven by emotions like a need to puff up self-esteem, a need to put down Pakistan for having the audacity to break away from mother India, and so forth.

rsridhar #225 I believe my post to shammi below responds to the points in your post too. Incidentally, a few days ago I thought you had a post calling for the Indian army to walk into Pakistan as if it was some kind of an empty desert inhabited by animals (or ``jehadis`` or whatever to use the term I have heard often used), rather home to 135 million proud people. I assume you have changed your mind on that now (as I had suggested in response that you may wish to do by examining the military balance of power).

shammi #223 you write ``It was Vajpayee who went to Lahore and to the Minar-e-Pakistan, not Narasimha Rao or Indira Gandhi. `` Point well taken. And no doubt Kargil brought that peace effort to an end. However, after that the BJP government was content to paint Pakistan as an enemy country etc. and things have gone downhill from there. What it should have done I think, and should now be doing, is encourage steps being taken for the restoration of democracy in Pakistan (among other things, as I mentioned in my previous post to you below).

This, I may add, is basically what the US and EU are doing in dealing with Musharaff. It is, I think is a much more sensible approach than simply trying to get Pakistan labelled a terrorist state as the BJP government has been unsuccessfully trying to do ever since the military government took over. This is an incredibly small-minded way to look at things for democratic government of a huge country like India. All the BJP has accomplished (aside from whatever personal satisfaction they get from calling Pakistan names) is strengthen the voice of those who view India as Pakistan`s sworn enemy, and weaken the voice of those who seek peace and friendship with India.

rsridhar #224:

``After what happened recently in Jammu and the assasination of Lone, i am of the opinion that continuation of the entity called ``Pakistan`` is no more in India`s interest. There should be a national debate as to how to break up Pak. I agree with you that direct confrontation is the worst way. US won the cold war without firing a shot. The best way would be to bring economic ruin to that country.``

Assuming you somehow succeed in breaking up Pak, do you expect the people there to disappear in a puff of smoke? The problem still remains. All it takes is a few suicide bombers / jihadis to keep causing trouble to India, and the smallest bit that you break Pakistan into, can do it.

Look at the long term - we still have to live side-by-side with these people, ten years from now and a hundred years from now too. The solution we should look for is on the lines of what nasah / tahmed321 suggested. I believe the two biggest problems from Pak for India are the jihadis and the Pak army. Both can be tackled by a democratically elected govt that reflects the will of their people.

Let a democratic govt be elected in Pak (hopefully this October). Let it decide whether it wants to pursue war (through supporting terrorists) or peace (through reining them in) with India. Let us base our actions based on the the elected govt`s decisions.

I personally think India should do two things:

- One, attack across PoK whenever there is a major terrorist incident in India. I dont care if the attack succeeds in destroying terrorist camps or not; it will put economic pressure on Pakistan to mend their ways.

- Two, do unto Pakistan as they do unto you.

Reply Sadna, Tahmed # 226

In the end I don’t think that it’s up to India whether Pakistan is a democracy or not. Nor is it something that India can affect except in the most cargo-cult corrupting sense of Pakistani democracy being judged by what it extracts from India rather than how it affects the day to day governance of Pakistan. (The Army being in a position to decide that a democratically elected Government has failed to extract XYZ and therefore to give itself the right to step in is essentially missing the point of what democracy is – sovreignty residing in the people.)

Sadna’s point about Vajpayee going to Lahore to meet Nawaz Sharif is taken – clearly recognition from India didn’t strengthen Sharif’s hand enough to forstall a coup. Could any Indian action have done that, short of utter capitulation about Kashmir? And if it did that, for how long would this have lasted? How can the validity of democracy, as opposed to the mandate of a particular Administration, be judged by a country’s foreign policy achievements?

All that said, I think that India’s politicians (BJP, Congress, whatever) and India’s Kashmir policy get a definite (domestic and international) PR shot in the arm due to the fact that they are not dealing with an elected Government, but with a military one. If Pakistan had a fully functioning and well established democracy it would be VERY difficult for India to sweep our political shenanigans in Kashmir (which sparked the current state of violence there) under the table, or to claim that they did not disqualify us from sovreignty there. So while India cannot affect whether Pakistan is a democracy or not (only the US can believably do that) the fact that it is not, or at least is a circumscribed democracy, is useful to India’s politicians and its foreign policy.

That’s what it looks like to me, of course. Aap ke shubhvichaar?

On the other hand, a quote from the Guardian:

[``The trouble is that both sides imagine that a nuclear bomb just makes a bigger bang,`` said Brian Cloughley, a south Asia military analyst and retired Australian army officer. ``They have got no concept of the sheer magnitude of the disaster of a nuclear exchange. Radioactive fallout in the Himalayas would mean the death of the subcontinent.``]

Going by the adage that two democracies have never gone to war, it is clear that while Indian mantris etc. find Pakistan’s current political situation advantageous, the fact is that it would be far far better for India if Pakistan was indeed a genuine democracy. Problem is, what can we do to facilitate that? At this point an Indian endorsement of democracy for Pakistan would probably cause democracy to be rejected by a popular vote in Pakistan, and vice versa.

ABH KYA KAREIN???

(runs from the room tearing his hair out.)

Sonia worship : http://www.indian-express.com/full_story.php?content_id=3369

I will take BJP anyday. Narendra Modi is not all of BJP. The weeds have to be removed from the party - self-corrections have to be made. But I wouldn`t ditch the whole party , at least not yet. There are many able persons in that party who can make a difference.

There are many good people in Congress too. But until the dynasty has not gone out of Congress - these guys will always be fore-stalled and the party is not going to reach its potential.

Reply #: 222

Zafar Al-Talib : ``That, dear sir, would be good for India, but bad for the BJP (and the Sangh Parivar). Iss liye...``

Tahmed321 : ``...And the best thing it (India) can do is to promote democracy in Pakistan on every front...``

So now - it is India and BJP`s fault that there is no democracy in Pakiland. Oh man - you guys are so pathetic. When latest democratic gov`t of Nawaz Sharif was toppled - nobody in pakiland shed a tear for him or the gov`t. Among the world community - The protests and reservations against the coup was loudest from the Indian gov`t.

And then Pakis of all hue complained that India wants democratic gov`ts in Pak so that India can dominate them since the civilian gov`t in Pak wouldn`t be Macho enough to stand up to the big brother. It was yet another attempt by India to subjugate pakiland and undermine its sovereignity ( as it turned out - the much trumpeted `sovereignity` went down the drain as soon as 9/11 happened ).

All pakis were cheerleading their latest saviour, the messiah, the great general Musharraf - the honest one, to lead them to the paradise. Even then - Indian gov`t and Intelligensia have consistently pointed out the folly of the cheerleading an Army dictator, in every forum. ( why do pakis really need somebody to remind them of their own history, anyway ??? ).

But to no avail. Mushy, the messiah was going to bring in `real democracy`. Why listen to the horrible hindoos!!! The pathetic procrastination to the man in shining armor continued until today when the man finally shed the shine and showed his actual colors - dirty as a dictator. phony referendum , fake promise of democracy. And now that the general has brought in nuke war to the doorstep - the pakis suddenly have woken up and smelled the Stench. well - Better late than never.

And still - it is all somehow India`s fault. now it is the responsibility of the `fascist` BJP to teach Pakis democracy. they want to learn from the Horrible Hindoos how to be democratic and civilized.

Sure - why not. India wouldn`t mind drilling the simple idea of democracy to your thick skulls.

re: Tahmed321

``...On the water issue...``

Sorry, I forgot to respond to this issue in my previous post.

Yes, indeed -- you are correct -- to every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. And India`s reneging on the Indus Treaty (such an act is illegal under international law), would be a serious breach in bilateral relations, and likely produce an ugly reaction from Pakistan. This treaty has never been challenged in three wars, and has stood the test of time. That such ideas are even being debated in India is indicative of how much goodwill each side has lost in the other country. The responsible thing for both is to simultaneously stand down, back off, and mend fences, and to not further the divide.

The undercurrent in most of this is the infiltration of armed men which is considered an act of war. India has many warts (religious fanaticism, poverty, illiteracy, hunger, disease, ignorance), but these remain Indian problems amenable to Indian solutions. They are not helped by armed men whose mission is to sow discord.

Rsridhar, Arjun_M:

I have noted an increase in stridency and name-calling in your recent posts. Perhaps you could make your points on the basis of the content of your ideas, rather than on the shrillness of your rhetoric.

Re: Tahme321 #221

Tahmed321, before I address each of your 5 points, let me say that I believe that achieving democracy in Pakistan would almost immediately lessen tensions between India and Pakistan. This is because an ordinary Pakistani has as much to worry about bread and butter issues as an ordinary Indian. Two democratic regimes, I believe, have never gone to war against each other in history. Even all Indo-Pak wars have had a dictator in Pindi or Islamabad. What you are asking for in terms of strengthening Pakistani democracy, in plain terms, is a regime change in Islamabad. However, India does not have the instruments nor the power/influence to make Pakistan democratic. (India can barely uphold democratic norms in some of her own states, what to talk of influencing Pakistan). Greater powers than India have failed to introduce democracy in their own spheres of influence until only recently (I am reminded of the US` inability to usher in the same in Mexico and Central/South America during the Cold War). A laudable goal? YES; achievable from India`s perspective? NO. No Indian government (barring a miracle like in a Tom Clancy novel) can do what the Pakistanis themselves must do. India, can however, discredit a dictatorial regime to make a future coup maker think twice about toppling a democratic structure. But even that is unlikely to topple a regime or usher in democracy (think about US’ failed efforts against Castro).

I think that India`s actions can strengthen Pakistani democrats, but any such strengthening will always remain extremely vulnerable to the intrigues of Pakistani generals, or to their benefactors in the West (most prominently, the US) who have their own agendas that take precedence over the lives of ordinary people in S. Asia. The West has always had greater credibility and influence than India in Pakistan, and it is the West that has frequently looked the other way when coups have taken place in Pakistan. This time it may be different because of the convergence of three factors that affect the West too -- (a) terrorism, (b) dictatorship/radical regimes, and (c) weapons of mass destruction. But who can be certain? I am not so sure that the West will behave any more responsibly than India in ushering in Pakistani democracy. That struggle will remain largely a Pakistani one, and the West will always pull with a greater weight than India.

Pakistan had renounced democracy three times before the emergence of the BJP or the Kashmir insurgency (or even nuclear weapons). That should indicate that Pakistan’s internal pressures were at work subverting its own constitution much longer than Indian influences. (Indeed, one of the few times that the military stepped aside was after it stood discredited by India in ’72. It took a mere 5 years for Zia to strike back). The Subcontinent is now in a vicious cycle. Pakistan Army feeds the Kashmir insurgency, which strengthens the Hindu Right, which weakens Indian democracy, and strengthens Pakistani dictatorship. And the cycle begins again. A few times into this cycle, it will matter little what the initiating event was. It is time for sober reflection for all concerned and to consider the stark choice facing us all – a) allow Pakistan to wither knowing full well that India will be sucked in one way or the other and its democratic experiment likely suffer as well, or b) for Pakistan to abandon its infiltration policy, strengthen its own democracy, reduce tensions with India and do its bit to take the wind out of the Hindutva sails. Pakistani dictators have had a role in destabilizing three regions in the last 3 decades (E. Pakistan, Afghanistan and Kashmir). While the optimist in me tells that this pattern can be broken, the skeptic in me says no, it is unlikely to happen. For every reason working in favor of (b), there appear to be two against it. I would be misleading you if I were to tell you that most Indians believe infiltration to be anything other than a war.

Now, to your points:

1) Yes, but it seems that the October elections will likely result in the emergence of a pygmy PM from a tonga party, with real power over India/defence policymaking still in control of the military especially after the Referendum. Therefore, do not expect much from the October elections.

2) Yes, agreed. Skepticism however stems from the fact that every civilian Pakistani PM has been assassinated/executed/exiled/hounded out of the country with the successor military regime not respecting most international agreements that that PM made. Now, only die-hard optimists will still believe those civilians PMs have any clout. That said, I believe that India must still do its part and strengthen any such PMs hands.

3) Yes, this will strengthen Pakistani moderates and the ‘silent majority’, but it is hard to squelch it in a noisy democracy where there are literally millions of voices. Things have become extremely bad and uncivil between the two countries in the last 50 years. Until ’65, newspapers from either side were available in both countries; and in ’48 (DURING the first Kashmir war) a Pak naval vessel needing repairs limped into Bombay harbor. I read that not only was the ship repaired, but the crew accorded a warm welcome. Such a gesture would have raised more than eyebrows had it happened today (Musharraf did not want his plane from Sri Lanka to even land in India when it was denied permission to land in Karachi).

4) On Babri Masjid and Gujarat, India needs to act in the manner you suggest not just to strengthen Pakistani democracy, but its own. The BJP lost the elections in UP where the Babri Masjid is. In my opinion, this defeat sends a message that is just as powerful as a court conviction, although a conviction would still be a very healthy development. Likewise, punishing those responsible for Gujarat is absolutely essential for the well-being India’s democracy. If India fails to act on this issue, there is a whole lot more at stake than just Kashmir, and Indians should be wise enough to veer India off its self-destructive path. Dispensing justice in Gujarat will heal some of the wounds, and restore some of India’s lost prestige, and to the extent that it benefits India’s voice and democracy in Pakistan, it is welcome. I, however, believe that Pakistani generals are not motivated by the well-being of India’s Muslims when they remove civilian governments from power. Indeed, had that been the case, they would have exercised caution and used better judgment before spawning groups like the LeT and Jaish-e-Mohd, who seek to INCREASE communal tensions in India. Indeed, I believe that the ISI mandarins have come to the conclusion that seizing Kashmir is possible only through destabilizing India, and they will do their bit (assisted by the knee-jerk respondents in the Hindutva brigades) to this end.

NOTE: Just as I had written the above, I visited The News website, and found that I had largely echoed BB, “LONDON: Former prime minister Benazir Bhutto told Western countries on Sunday they must press for democracy in Pakistan if its nuclear crisis with India is to be neutralised. “I think what the West really needs to do is encourage the democratic process in Pakistan,`` Bhutto told BBC television.”

re: Democracy and Pak

Tahmed says India can help foster democracy in Pak. I wish it could. Nothing would be better for India. Politicians may be corrupt but they have a constituency to defend. Note how difficult it is for ABV to start a war. If war does not go the way ruling party wanted, BJP(being the major party in a ruling coalition) will cease to be a political party of any consequence. That is how democracy works. When Pak military infiltrated into Kargil (with help of Mujahideens) and a war was about to break out, Nawaz Sharief backed off. Politicians are in the end also pragmatists. Pakistan`s military dictators of the past and present have been men without any vision or with their own vision of Pak which they force on an unwilling population (eg the recent referendum). They have no constituency to defend. Add to that the intense hatred that many of these have for India (post-1971 syndrome?) and their obsesseion with Kashmir which binds all these dictators (Ayub Khan downwards)together and you get the picture.

I do not see a debate in Pak today of what will happen in case of a war with India or if this is what the majority want. So, it is too late to say India could help Pak become a democracy. Pak did not learn in the last 50 years of its existence any lessons of democracy from India. What lessons can it learn today.

There is clearly a difference in mindset of an average Pakistani and and average Indian. An average Paki seems to somehow relate to a military dictator and even feel kinship with him. He is not bothered that one single person (or a Coterie)is calling all the shots and deciding the fate of 130 million Pakistanis. How can you let one person decide your fate? When the whole world is shouting hoarse about Mushy`s complicity in terrorism in Kashmir, i don`t hear any dissenting voices from an average Paki. So, anything that hurts India seems to be good for an average Paki. Since the Supreme Whore has been successful in hurting India by his terrorist tactics, it jives well with the average Paki.

Pakistan would have been a democracy long ago if it had wanted to. But Pak was not made to be a democratic nation. It is a nation of landlords and warring tribesmen and egoistic Generals and armymen all of who rule over teeming masses of uneducated people. The only thing that unites this disparate group is intense hatred of India. Either the whole leadership should change or this state of conflict will continue. Leadership can be changed by the people of Pak who have so far shown no willingness to do so (note the complete lack of any protests following the massive rigging by Mushy at the referendum). If people cannot do it, then the only way India can change the leadership in Pak is through a bloody war. Latter, alas, seems to be the only option at the moment.

sridhar

Zafar #222
If I recall right, it was BJP`s Vajpayee that went to Lahore to meet a democratic PM Nawaz Sharif and make a speech at Minar-e-Pakistan declaring full acceptance of Pakistan as a sovereign nation.

After the coup, for a long time the BJP government took a lot of abuse from Pakistanis and other sundry peaceniks for refusing to talk to Musharraf because `he had deposed an elected government` and was the `architect of Kargil` and didnot believe in the Lahore process. The argument to berate the BJP government was if India could talk to the dictator Zia then why not Musharraf. When they did finally agree to talk to him in Agra, then they were again questioned, how the hell did he suddenly become acceptable?

In the matter of supporting democracy in Pakistan, it seems to be damned if we do and damned if we don`t.

shammi #217 in response to my comment ``...And the best thing it (India) can do is to promote democracy in Pakistan on every front...`` you write ``How? While simulataneously stopping terror?``

These are some of the ways I India can promote democracy in Pakistan (and these are just some quick thoughts from the top of my head):

1. Work with the international community to encourage Musharaff to hold the October elections on schedule.

2. After October, strengthen the hands of whoever is elected prime minister of Pakistan. There are many ways this can be done starting with a re-opening of diplomatic relations, pulling back the million man army from the border (which is basically costing India a lot of money to India and has not scared anyone in Pakistan anyway in the few months it has been sitting there).

3. Go easy on the knee-jerk anti-Pakistan rhetoric. No point in threatening Pakistan`s existence when this is clearly beyond the capability of the Indian government. All it does is confirm the fears and suspicions of the average Pakistani and perpetuate the air of hostility between the two nations.

3. 1. and 2. are what I call ``soft`` actions. The ``hard actions`` are to live up to India`s own ideals of secularism. The destruction of the Babri Masjid should, per this ideal, be punished as a crime, just as the events of Gujrat should be treated as a crime. The Indian government can then more credibly call for reigning in religious extremism in Pakistan, and would no doubt be then seen by the ``silent majority`` of Pakistan as a part of the solution to our problems, rather than an aggravating element.

btw, on the water issue, it is important to remember Newton`s third law (if I remember my physics correctly): to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I dont know what it would be, but clearly Pakistan would not simply standby if this has a significant impact on the economy.

Maybe there are other ways India can change it`s relationship from one of lose-lose (which is the current situation) or win-lose (which is all that the current governments on both sides seem to be aiming for) to win-win (where both countries proactively help one another move forward in terms of political, economic and social progress).

What do you think?

````I talked about laying a long term plan to break up Pakistan````(tvarad)

but -- Why ``break up pakistan`` -- my friend tvarad?

let’s ``talk about laying a long term plan`` for a democratic secular -- politically stable -- non jihadi Pakistan -- in the best interest of -- yes -- India.

and -- let`s also talk about long term plan of keeping India -- from breaking up.

Two or three more state `governments` -- like the Gujarat Government of Goondas -- with their Government sponsored massacres -- and India will be coming apart at the seams -- as well.

re:Reply #: 210

tahmed321,

Like other Pakis, you seem to have no clue how Indians feel about all this. There is a decision making process and going to war by a democratic country is not an easy decision. Your dictator will bring ruin to your country. He lacks political wisdom. His intense hatred of India and his obsesseion with Kashmir makes situation very difficult. He kept insisting to washington post in an interview that there was no infiltration across the LOC when NYTimes had reported that monitoring by US and UK had revealed that Mushy had allowed militants to regroup in POK and infiltration was on.

When India goes to war, it will not be just military. It will be at all levels. It will last until your Army is humbled. Mushy may well choose to push the nuclear button. In that case, not much will be left to discuss about Pak. It is a pity your countrymen could never elect a democratic leader who could speak for the people. What do the people of Pak want today? Do they want war? Do they want to continue what Pak is doing in Kashmir? Do they want to give up everything for the sake of illusory Kashmir which will never be their`s: now or ever? A military dictator has no constituency to defend. What happened to yahya Khan after your county was defeated in 1971? I am sure he is still sitting pretty somewhere. Mushy has gone on a suicidal course. He and his nation will pay the price.

sridhar

re:Reply #: 216

tvarad,

After what happened recently in Jammu and the assasination of Lone, i am of the opinion that continuation of the entity called ``Pakistan`` is no more in India`s interest. There should be a national debate as to how to break up Pak. I agree with you that direct confrontation is the worst way. US won the cold war without firing a shot. The best way would be to bring economic ruin to that country. We can openly start supporting sindhi nationalism and prop up leadership demanding freedom from the Punjabi domination. Scrapping up Indus treaty is another way. This is a puny little county. If there is a national will, Pak will not survive for long. I for one no longer believe in the oft-repeated cliche that a prosperous and strong Pak is good for India. As General Cariappa said way back in 1947: if all Indians decide to urinate all at once on the Indo-Pak border, Pak would be drowned.

We have let this monster grow. There is really nothing common between us. Clearly only one of us can live UNLESS PAK CHANGES ITS STATE POLICY OF STATE TERRORISM.

sridhar

Re: Tahmed321

``...The fact that BJP has not focussed on promoting democracy in Pakistan is because BJP policies are in my view taken off the course of rationality by their hatred for Pakistan...``

It was Vajpayee who went to Lahore and to the Minar-e-Pakistan, not Narasimha Rao or Indira Gandhi. However, I believe that Vajpayee DID undermine democracy by giving a pretext to Musharraf to declare himself President by inviting him to Agra. To this list should be added the leaders of Western democracies who have cast principle aside in favor of expediency.

Reply Tahmed321

``...And the best thing it (India) can do is to promote democracy in Pakistan on every front...``

That, dear sir, would be good for India, but bad for the BJP (and the Sangh Parivar). Iss liye...

Pankaj #213
``Conserving one`s power instead of wasting it on a lost cause was a more ``rational`` option than the suicidal attacks of jihadis. As they say, live to fight another day ;)``

You mean live to claim to be equal to 5 Indians or was it 10 :).

Pakistan army pays scant regard to Musharraf`s talk: Captured militant

A captured militant on Saturday indicated that the Pakistani army pays scant regard to Pakistan President Gen Pervez Musharraf`s promise not to allow his country or its border to be used for any kind of militancy in Jammu and Kashmir and continues to train and push militants into the state.

``We were kept by Pak troops in a launching pad and then pushed into this side for carrying out terrorist activities and subversive actions,`` Anjum, captured by security forces at Chawa on Friday night, told a group of reporters in Rajouri on Saturday afternoon.

Codenamed Mehrul Islam, Anjum said the `Pakistani army organised and directed our infiltration into Indian territory and also assigned us to undertake several subversive missions in J&K`.

Anjum, who lost three of his Pakistani militant colleagues in the encounter with the army at Chawa village, revealed that Pakistani intelligence agency Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) was still training militants at various launching pads.

``We were organised by Pak troops and pushed through Nallah post and tasked to target the Doodhadaray temple in Rajouri town to create communal violence on the eve of Eid,`` Anjum, whose five other militant colleagues managed to escape, said.

The ISI has directed all militant outfits, including the Al-Badr, Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM), Lashkar-e-Tayiba (LeT), Harkat-ul-Jehadi Islami (HUJI) and Tehreek-e-Jahid Islami (Teji) to fight under a joint platform, he added.

Anjum, who has been active in Kashmir for over three years, said that the Pakistani army does not pay heed to the statements of Musharraf and that it is committed to the militancy in Kashmir.

Over 1000 trained militants are ready to be pushed into J&K from their launching pads-cum-Pak posts along the Line of Control (LoC), he said.

Later, Brigadier Rohit Kalia told mediapersons, ``Pakistan army is involved in militancy in J&K at all levels.``

Pankaj #213 you write ``Pakistani military stands to loose from any such arrangement. Then they would neither be able to justify their coups in the ``national interests`` nor the disproportionate share that they demand of the economic pie. `` That is right. As they say, war is too important to be left to the generals. I agree that the LoC should be made a permanent boundary, and the cause for friction would then disappear. And this is some friction :-)

I doubt if there will actually be ever be another major war (except through a big miscalculation) between the two countries, given nuclearization. And even the conventional balance of power alone is not too bad (from a Pakistani perspective). However, the real cost is the cost of preparing for such confrontations.

Given this situation, I think the most rational policy for the Indian government from all perspectives (Indian, Pakistani, world at large) is to vigorously promote the cause of democracy in Pakistan. The India-Pakistan dispute will then disappear faster than the morning fog (remember that leaders of the two mainstream political parties in Pakistan have opted for peace with India).

The fact that BJP has not focussed on promoting democracy in Pakistan is because BJP policies are in my view taken off the course of rationality by their hatred for Pakistan. So all I see from the BJP leadership is bellicose talk that is rendered meaningless by the military stalemate.

Re: Tahmed321

``...And the best thing it (India) can do is to promote democracy in Pakistan on every front...``

How? While simulataneously stopping terror? I am all ears. Please note that it is not the BJP alone taking decisions -- it is the NDA (Fernandes in not from the BJP) and the Congress has effectively given a carte blanche to the govt, and elected officials have to show results or be shown the door before the 5 yr. term is up.

Even this dove has begun to advocate reneging on the Indus Waters Treaty albeit temporarily - a thought that never crossed an Indians mind in `65, `71, and `99.

RE: Reply #: 210 tahmed321

``tvarad #209 you write ``it is time to put Pakistan out of it`s misery.``

When the latest charade is over, I assume you will print out these words and eat them. Along with the dozen other brave ``chowk warriors`` from India who think the Indian army can walk into pakistan.``

Did you read through what I wrote? What I am saying is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Indian intelligence predicted the breakup of Pakistan two years before 1971. If India lays out a long term plan to exploit the internal weaknesses of Pakistan to effect another breakup to it`s advantage, then it`s better for the region as a whole. It`s time to neutralize the nuclear blackmail that India is being subjected to.

``Do you people have a clue about the relative strengths of the two armies (and I am not even talking nuclear weapons), and why the Advanis and Fernandes can huff and puff all they want but dont dare to mess with Pakistan? Maybe they know something you people do not.``

Again, a knee-jerk reaction to what I posted. Who said anything about taking on the Pakistani army headon? I talked about laying a long term plan to break up Pakistan by bypassing the army altogether. Pakistan is much more vulnerable to breakup than India is. India can spend just 20% of it`s defense budget ($3 billion) to raise rebel forces which is the total budget of the Pakistani army and we`ll have a rebellion in our hands in no time.

Pakistani planners know that this is their Achilles heel, which is why they are so busy trying to keep India boiling. India was more worried about what would happen if Pakistan`s nukes fell into the wrong hands so they`ve tried to contain it. Well, everything changed post Sept. 11 and so India`s time to act has come.

Before Pakistanis start crying foul, let me say that that is what your army has been doing to India almost since it`s inception. It`s time to pay back in the same coin.

Advani and Fernandes are a bunch of jokers and Vajpayee should be sent to a old home asap. There is plenty of new thinking waiting in the wings in India that will deal with Pakistan from a modern perspective rather than this WWI type of mentality.

tvarad #209 you write ``it is time to put Pakistan out of it`s misery.``

When the latest charade is over, I assume you will print out these words and eat them. Along with the dozen other brave ``chowk warriors`` from India who think the Indian army can walk into pakistan. When the Indian politicians are beginning to realize their bellicose talk of the past few days is basically hot air. I am amazed at the arrogance and chauvinism of so many Indian posters on chowk at this time. Do you people have a clue about the relative strengths of the two armies (and I am not even talking nuclear weapons), and why the Advanis and Fernandes can huff and puff all they want but dont dare to mess with Pakistan? Maybe they know something you people do not.