Feroz R Khan May 13, 2002
#325 Posted by progressive on May 22, 2002 1:31:34 pm
In case the Lefties(the ones left out?) & socialists are still in some kind of intellectual stupor.
``Rub it in ---Remind them,often,and watch them
wriggle,slither,and become watery like salted earthworms``
End of Communism
June 1, 1990
Two months after this speech was delivered, the final dissolution of the Soviet Union itself began. On August 19, 1991, some of President Mikhail Gorbachev`s associates staged a coup d`etat. Within three days, with Russian Republic President Boris Yeltsin leading the resistance, the coup collapsed. On December 8, 1991, the three republics of Russia, Ukraine, and Byelorussia (Belarus) formed a new federation and moved the capital from Moscow to Minsk. This new union, called the Commonwealth of Independent States, marked the end of the Soviet Union and a search for a new relationship between the former Soviet Republics. In the following speech, Dr. Pak pinpoints the deep, spiritual reason behind the failure of communism. On the occasion of the 20th American Leadership Conference in Washington, D.C., on June 1, 1990, Dr. Pak gave the following remarks.
On behalf of the American Leadership Conference, I would like to welcome you all to Washington, D.C., and to the 20th American Leadership Conference. There is no doubt that this conference is being convened at a most historic time. On November 10, 1989, the Berlin Wall finally began to tumble down. In existence since 1961, this symbol of the Cold War and of the ideological confrontation between East and West was the landmark of tyranny and totalitarianism. I am sure we all had the same experience that day: We doubted our eyes and ears. After all, only a few weeks earlier the now-deposed East German leader Erich Honecker had stubbornly predicted that the Berlin Wall would still be standing in fifty, or even one hundred, years.
That very day I was visiting Arnaud de Borchgrave, editor-in-chief of The Washington Times, together with the cultural attaché of the Soviet embassy. Suddenly, as we were meeting in his office, Arnaud received the news that the Berlin Wall had fallen. The Soviet attaches response to the news was very cute. He asked, ``Which way?`` Remarkably, his question was right to the point. Not only did 2.7 million East Berliners cross the border to the West for a taste of freedom, but thousands of West Berliners crossed the border to East Germany to test the new freedom that had been granted. To put it simply, the Berlin Wall, the most brutal symbol of the Cold War, has collapsed.
We have been conducting these conferences for several years now, and a major area of discussion and concern has been the problem of communism and the aggressive behavior of the Soviet Union. However, in recent months the world situation has dramatically changed. A wave of democratization has swept over Eastern Europe and even the Soviet Union itself.
In our own hemisphere the Nicaraguan people, when given a chance to make their feelings known, decisively rejected Castro-style communism and elected the courageous Mrs. Chamorro to be their president. A whirlwind of change is happening in the world, and no one really knows what tomorrow may bring.
Yet one thing is absolutely certain: The era of communism, which has caused so much destruction and suffering over the past 70 years and claimed the lives of 160 million innocent people, is quickly coming to an end. Some describe the situation of communism today as ``brain dead.`` Mr. Gorbachev`s glasnost and perestroika are the Soviet version of Chapter 11. The Soviet communists are simply bankrupt. They have run out of ideas, and they have run out of cash.
``Rub it in ---Remind them,often,and watch them
wriggle,slither,and become watery like salted earthworms``
End of Communism
June 1, 1990
Two months after this speech was delivered, the final dissolution of the Soviet Union itself began. On August 19, 1991, some of President Mikhail Gorbachev`s associates staged a coup d`etat. Within three days, with Russian Republic President Boris Yeltsin leading the resistance, the coup collapsed. On December 8, 1991, the three republics of Russia, Ukraine, and Byelorussia (Belarus) formed a new federation and moved the capital from Moscow to Minsk. This new union, called the Commonwealth of Independent States, marked the end of the Soviet Union and a search for a new relationship between the former Soviet Republics. In the following speech, Dr. Pak pinpoints the deep, spiritual reason behind the failure of communism. On the occasion of the 20th American Leadership Conference in Washington, D.C., on June 1, 1990, Dr. Pak gave the following remarks.
On behalf of the American Leadership Conference, I would like to welcome you all to Washington, D.C., and to the 20th American Leadership Conference. There is no doubt that this conference is being convened at a most historic time. On November 10, 1989, the Berlin Wall finally began to tumble down. In existence since 1961, this symbol of the Cold War and of the ideological confrontation between East and West was the landmark of tyranny and totalitarianism. I am sure we all had the same experience that day: We doubted our eyes and ears. After all, only a few weeks earlier the now-deposed East German leader Erich Honecker had stubbornly predicted that the Berlin Wall would still be standing in fifty, or even one hundred, years.
That very day I was visiting Arnaud de Borchgrave, editor-in-chief of The Washington Times, together with the cultural attaché of the Soviet embassy. Suddenly, as we were meeting in his office, Arnaud received the news that the Berlin Wall had fallen. The Soviet attaches response to the news was very cute. He asked, ``Which way?`` Remarkably, his question was right to the point. Not only did 2.7 million East Berliners cross the border to the West for a taste of freedom, but thousands of West Berliners crossed the border to East Germany to test the new freedom that had been granted. To put it simply, the Berlin Wall, the most brutal symbol of the Cold War, has collapsed.
We have been conducting these conferences for several years now, and a major area of discussion and concern has been the problem of communism and the aggressive behavior of the Soviet Union. However, in recent months the world situation has dramatically changed. A wave of democratization has swept over Eastern Europe and even the Soviet Union itself.
In our own hemisphere the Nicaraguan people, when given a chance to make their feelings known, decisively rejected Castro-style communism and elected the courageous Mrs. Chamorro to be their president. A whirlwind of change is happening in the world, and no one really knows what tomorrow may bring.
Yet one thing is absolutely certain: The era of communism, which has caused so much destruction and suffering over the past 70 years and claimed the lives of 160 million innocent people, is quickly coming to an end. Some describe the situation of communism today as ``brain dead.`` Mr. Gorbachev`s glasnost and perestroika are the Soviet version of Chapter 11. The Soviet communists are simply bankrupt. They have run out of ideas, and they have run out of cash.
#324 Posted by progressive on May 22, 2002 1:31:34 pm
In case the Lefties(the ones left out?) & socialists are still in some kind of intellectual stupor.
``Rub it in ---Remind them,often,and watch them
wriggle,slither,and become watery like salted earthworms``
End of Communism
June 1, 1990
Two months after this speech was delivered, the final dissolution of the Soviet Union itself began. On August 19, 1991, some of President Mikhail Gorbachev`s associates staged a coup d`etat. Within three days, with Russian Republic President Boris Yeltsin leading the resistance, the coup collapsed. On December 8, 1991, the three republics of Russia, Ukraine, and Byelorussia (Belarus) formed a new federation and moved the capital from Moscow to Minsk. This new union, called the Commonwealth of Independent States, marked the end of the Soviet Union and a search for a new relationship between the former Soviet Republics. In the following speech, Dr. Pak pinpoints the deep, spiritual reason behind the failure of communism. On the occasion of the 20th American Leadership Conference in Washington, D.C., on June 1, 1990, Dr. Pak gave the following remarks.
On behalf of the American Leadership Conference, I would like to welcome you all to Washington, D.C., and to the 20th American Leadership Conference. There is no doubt that this conference is being convened at a most historic time. On November 10, 1989, the Berlin Wall finally began to tumble down. In existence since 1961, this symbol of the Cold War and of the ideological confrontation between East and West was the landmark of tyranny and totalitarianism. I am sure we all had the same experience that day: We doubted our eyes and ears. After all, only a few weeks earlier the now-deposed East German leader Erich Honecker had stubbornly predicted that the Berlin Wall would still be standing in fifty, or even one hundred, years.
That very day I was visiting Arnaud de Borchgrave, editor-in-chief of The Washington Times, together with the cultural attaché of the Soviet embassy. Suddenly, as we were meeting in his office, Arnaud received the news that the Berlin Wall had fallen. The Soviet attaches response to the news was very cute. He asked, ``Which way?`` Remarkably, his question was right to the point. Not only did 2.7 million East Berliners cross the border to the West for a taste of freedom, but thousands of West Berliners crossed the border to East Germany to test the new freedom that had been granted. To put it simply, the Berlin Wall, the most brutal symbol of the Cold War, has collapsed.
We have been conducting these conferences for several years now, and a major area of discussion and concern has been the problem of communism and the aggressive behavior of the Soviet Union. However, in recent months the world situation has dramatically changed. A wave of democratization has swept over Eastern Europe and even the Soviet Union itself.
In our own hemisphere the Nicaraguan people, when given a chance to make their feelings known, decisively rejected Castro-style communism and elected the courageous Mrs. Chamorro to be their president. A whirlwind of change is happening in the world, and no one really knows what tomorrow may bring.
Yet one thing is absolutely certain: The era of communism, which has caused so much destruction and suffering over the past 70 years and claimed the lives of 160 million innocent people, is quickly coming to an end. Some describe the situation of communism today as ``brain dead.`` Mr. Gorbachev`s glasnost and perestroika are the Soviet version of Chapter 11. The Soviet communists are simply bankrupt. They have run out of ideas, and they have run out of cash.
``Rub it in ---Remind them,often,and watch them
wriggle,slither,and become watery like salted earthworms``
End of Communism
June 1, 1990
Two months after this speech was delivered, the final dissolution of the Soviet Union itself began. On August 19, 1991, some of President Mikhail Gorbachev`s associates staged a coup d`etat. Within three days, with Russian Republic President Boris Yeltsin leading the resistance, the coup collapsed. On December 8, 1991, the three republics of Russia, Ukraine, and Byelorussia (Belarus) formed a new federation and moved the capital from Moscow to Minsk. This new union, called the Commonwealth of Independent States, marked the end of the Soviet Union and a search for a new relationship between the former Soviet Republics. In the following speech, Dr. Pak pinpoints the deep, spiritual reason behind the failure of communism. On the occasion of the 20th American Leadership Conference in Washington, D.C., on June 1, 1990, Dr. Pak gave the following remarks.
On behalf of the American Leadership Conference, I would like to welcome you all to Washington, D.C., and to the 20th American Leadership Conference. There is no doubt that this conference is being convened at a most historic time. On November 10, 1989, the Berlin Wall finally began to tumble down. In existence since 1961, this symbol of the Cold War and of the ideological confrontation between East and West was the landmark of tyranny and totalitarianism. I am sure we all had the same experience that day: We doubted our eyes and ears. After all, only a few weeks earlier the now-deposed East German leader Erich Honecker had stubbornly predicted that the Berlin Wall would still be standing in fifty, or even one hundred, years.
That very day I was visiting Arnaud de Borchgrave, editor-in-chief of The Washington Times, together with the cultural attaché of the Soviet embassy. Suddenly, as we were meeting in his office, Arnaud received the news that the Berlin Wall had fallen. The Soviet attaches response to the news was very cute. He asked, ``Which way?`` Remarkably, his question was right to the point. Not only did 2.7 million East Berliners cross the border to the West for a taste of freedom, but thousands of West Berliners crossed the border to East Germany to test the new freedom that had been granted. To put it simply, the Berlin Wall, the most brutal symbol of the Cold War, has collapsed.
We have been conducting these conferences for several years now, and a major area of discussion and concern has been the problem of communism and the aggressive behavior of the Soviet Union. However, in recent months the world situation has dramatically changed. A wave of democratization has swept over Eastern Europe and even the Soviet Union itself.
In our own hemisphere the Nicaraguan people, when given a chance to make their feelings known, decisively rejected Castro-style communism and elected the courageous Mrs. Chamorro to be their president. A whirlwind of change is happening in the world, and no one really knows what tomorrow may bring.
Yet one thing is absolutely certain: The era of communism, which has caused so much destruction and suffering over the past 70 years and claimed the lives of 160 million innocent people, is quickly coming to an end. Some describe the situation of communism today as ``brain dead.`` Mr. Gorbachev`s glasnost and perestroika are the Soviet version of Chapter 11. The Soviet communists are simply bankrupt. They have run out of ideas, and they have run out of cash.
#323 Posted by Harpreet on May 22, 2002 1:31:34 pm
I would really appreciate any comments on this article, by anyone (especially Indians) who can be bothered to read it.
http://www.tehelka.com/channels/commentary/2002/may/20/com052002are.htm
-h-
http://www.tehelka.com/channels/commentary/2002/may/20/com052002are.htm
-h-
#322 Posted by ali1 on May 22, 2002 1:31:34 pm
Reply # 320 babu
[``Lone`s son has different views.``]
Babu, Lone`s son has changed his views. Also, I think Rajiv Chandrasekaran was thrown out of Pakistan for good reason.
http://headlines.sify.com/884news1.html
Now, Lone`s son blames Farooq for murder
``It is too early to blame anybody,`` he told Star News in an interview. About his earlier statement, Sajjad said, ``It was an emotional outburst... anybody in my place would have lost his cool. It is not easy.``
With so many agencies, both from India and Pakistan, working in the state, it was difficult to say who was behind the attack, he said.
``My earlier statement was not backed by any factual information,`` Sajjad added.
[``Lone`s son has different views.``]
Babu, Lone`s son has changed his views. Also, I think Rajiv Chandrasekaran was thrown out of Pakistan for good reason.
http://headlines.sify.com/884news1.html
Now, Lone`s son blames Farooq for murder
``It is too early to blame anybody,`` he told Star News in an interview. About his earlier statement, Sajjad said, ``It was an emotional outburst... anybody in my place would have lost his cool. It is not easy.``
With so many agencies, both from India and Pakistan, working in the state, it was difficult to say who was behind the attack, he said.
``My earlier statement was not backed by any factual information,`` Sajjad added.
#321 Posted by Harpreet on May 22, 2002 1:31:34 pm
Am I the only one who is scared about all this war rhetoric? Its doing my head in, big time. Its all so uncool.
damn
-h-<
damn
-h-<
#320 Posted by Harpreet on May 22, 2002 1:31:34 pm
All Punjabis from both sides of the border please read this article.
..........................................................................
(from www.telegraph.co.uk)
My village echoes to sounds of another war
(Filed: 22/05/2002)
Our Delhi correspondent, Rahul Bedi, writes on how the crisis is affecting his ancestral home
My remote village of Dera Baba Nanak on the Pakistani border is once again alive to the roar of tanks and the rattle of field guns as they camouflage themselves in scattered mango groves, their barrels aimed across the Ravi river between the two countries.
DBN, as it is known in military circles, lies some 200 miles north of New Delhi in Punjab state right on the border. Militarily, it is the gateway to the Pakistani city of Sialkot, barely 15 miles away as the crow flies. My parents recall that, just for one day at the time of partition in 1947, it ended up inside Pakistan as confusion prevailed over boundary lines.
Dera, meaning encampment, is also named after my ancestor, the visionary peasant Nanak Bedi who founded Sikhism in the 15th century.
A relative is the custodian of Nanak`s white homespun cloak and wooden slippers that is displayed every year at a special fair in the village in March attended by tens of thousands of devotees. Before partition even Muslims flocked to touch the holy man`s effects.
Conflict is nothing new to Dera`s 8,000-odd residents, most of them farmers.
Many remember the 1965 and 1971 wars when all the women and children were sent to nearby towns for safety and the menfolk stayed to tend to their fields and look after the jawans (soldiers), lavishing Punjabi hospitality on them.
Artillery and tank duels raged around Dera for control of the vital bridge over the Ravi, badly damaged in 1965 and never repaired since. The artillery fire in 1971 was equally fierce as the guns, secreted in our small family mango grove with the century-old open well with the crystal clear water, relentlessly bombarded the enemy.
But we remain convinced that Nanak, who spent the last 17 years of his life farming a small plot of land in Dera, some of it divided between his descendants, hovers protectively above ensuring that no harm comes to his beloved village.
``Guru Nanak`s blessing will ensure that nothing happens to us,`` Raghbir Singh Bedi, a retired headmaster and distant cousin, confidently says. ``His (Nanak`s) blessings made sure that no harm came to us in the last two wars. He will do the same for us again if there is a fight,`` he added.
But the tension over the military build-up is palpable even as the loudspeakers, relaying Sikh prayers, edge out the previous night`s continuing din of popular Punjabi songs played by the local eunuchs to celebrate a child`s birth in Jewellers Alley.
This is the area where my grandfather, a sessions judge, once came across a pot full of gold coins and jewellery whilst digging the foundations of our family house, now a complete ruin more than 90 years later.
He was allowed by the government to keep one gold sovereign from the entire cache.
Over the years, we heard stories of many others finding treasure buried in walls that crumbled during the monsoon rains, a phenomenon the village elders attributed to divine intervention. Later I realised that the booty was what refugees fleeing Pakistan in 1947 buried, hoping to collect it later.
As soldiers with assault rifles daily tumble out of trucks, making their way through Dera`s narrow bazaar to the golden-domed Gurdwara or Sikh temple to pray for victory, villagers openly wonder at the local lemonade shop when the fireworks will start.
``Without a fight, there can be no peace with Pakistan,`` Mrs Basant Kaur said. ``But they should get it over with soon,`` she added.
..........................................................................
(from www.telegraph.co.uk)
My village echoes to sounds of another war
(Filed: 22/05/2002)
Our Delhi correspondent, Rahul Bedi, writes on how the crisis is affecting his ancestral home
My remote village of Dera Baba Nanak on the Pakistani border is once again alive to the roar of tanks and the rattle of field guns as they camouflage themselves in scattered mango groves, their barrels aimed across the Ravi river between the two countries.
DBN, as it is known in military circles, lies some 200 miles north of New Delhi in Punjab state right on the border. Militarily, it is the gateway to the Pakistani city of Sialkot, barely 15 miles away as the crow flies. My parents recall that, just for one day at the time of partition in 1947, it ended up inside Pakistan as confusion prevailed over boundary lines.
Dera, meaning encampment, is also named after my ancestor, the visionary peasant Nanak Bedi who founded Sikhism in the 15th century.
A relative is the custodian of Nanak`s white homespun cloak and wooden slippers that is displayed every year at a special fair in the village in March attended by tens of thousands of devotees. Before partition even Muslims flocked to touch the holy man`s effects.
Conflict is nothing new to Dera`s 8,000-odd residents, most of them farmers.
Many remember the 1965 and 1971 wars when all the women and children were sent to nearby towns for safety and the menfolk stayed to tend to their fields and look after the jawans (soldiers), lavishing Punjabi hospitality on them.
Artillery and tank duels raged around Dera for control of the vital bridge over the Ravi, badly damaged in 1965 and never repaired since. The artillery fire in 1971 was equally fierce as the guns, secreted in our small family mango grove with the century-old open well with the crystal clear water, relentlessly bombarded the enemy.
But we remain convinced that Nanak, who spent the last 17 years of his life farming a small plot of land in Dera, some of it divided between his descendants, hovers protectively above ensuring that no harm comes to his beloved village.
``Guru Nanak`s blessing will ensure that nothing happens to us,`` Raghbir Singh Bedi, a retired headmaster and distant cousin, confidently says. ``His (Nanak`s) blessings made sure that no harm came to us in the last two wars. He will do the same for us again if there is a fight,`` he added.
But the tension over the military build-up is palpable even as the loudspeakers, relaying Sikh prayers, edge out the previous night`s continuing din of popular Punjabi songs played by the local eunuchs to celebrate a child`s birth in Jewellers Alley.
This is the area where my grandfather, a sessions judge, once came across a pot full of gold coins and jewellery whilst digging the foundations of our family house, now a complete ruin more than 90 years later.
He was allowed by the government to keep one gold sovereign from the entire cache.
Over the years, we heard stories of many others finding treasure buried in walls that crumbled during the monsoon rains, a phenomenon the village elders attributed to divine intervention. Later I realised that the booty was what refugees fleeing Pakistan in 1947 buried, hoping to collect it later.
As soldiers with assault rifles daily tumble out of trucks, making their way through Dera`s narrow bazaar to the golden-domed Gurdwara or Sikh temple to pray for victory, villagers openly wonder at the local lemonade shop when the fireworks will start.
``Without a fight, there can be no peace with Pakistan,`` Mrs Basant Kaur said. ``But they should get it over with soon,`` she added.
#319 Posted by Star Buck on May 22, 2002 1:31:34 pm
http://headlines.sify.com/popwin.html
Now, Lone`s son blames Farooq for murder
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
New Delhi, May 22
Hurriyat leader Abdul Gani Lone`s son Sajjad Lone on Wednesday retracted his earlier statement holding Pakistan`s ISI responsible for his father`s killing and blamed Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Farooq Abdullah for the murder.
``It is too early to blame anybody,`` he told Star News in an interview. About his earlier statement, Sajjad said, ``It was an emotional outburst... anybody in my place would have lost his cool. It is not easy.``
With so many agencies, both from India and Pakistan, working in the state, it was difficult to say who was behind the attack, he said.
``My earlier statement was not backed by any factual information,`` Sajjad added.
Blaming Abdullah, he said the security of the senior Hurriyat leader had been reduced barely two months ago by the state government despite persistent threats to his life.
``Dr Abdullah, who reduced my father`s security, knew very well that there was a risk to his life.``
``As it is, there always are risks in Kashmir and, knowing his bold stand it was more so for my father,`` Sajjad said.
``Our house was attacked twice and on both occasions the authorities said it was stage-managed,`` he added. <
#318 Posted by Harpreet on May 22, 2002 1:31:34 pm
This is from Prem Shankar Jha`s article from tehelka.
[If Musharraf is totally uncooperative, India will be justified in declaring that a state of war exists between the two countries, snapping all political and economic links, abrogating the Indus waters treaty and denying water to eastern Pakistan. If the inflow of jehadis continues, it could blockade Karachi port to deny oil to Pakistan. Only after that fails, should the military option be adopted.]
Will one Indian please outline for me in simple terms, what will the ``war aims`` of the campaign be? To strike at a few tents or training camps in Western Kashmir, training camps that could be re-constituted anywhere anytime?
What are the aims?
It seems to me that none of this is being thought out clearly or rationally. Its just a heightened impulse to fight Pakistan. And Vajpayee and Advanis instincts are to kill kill kill...and then what?
There seems to be a tangible war hysteria amongst the masses. I cannot help thinking that this crop of leaders simply lack the intelllect or desire to address the issues in any other way. It is a huge cop out.
Please dont jump down my throat, I am not a peacenik by any means, but tell me what are the strategic aims and limits of what India is going to achieve in the coming campaign? All the talk of ``decisive action`` is too nebulous for me. What does this constitute? Where , how?
Where is the strategy?
-h-
[If Musharraf is totally uncooperative, India will be justified in declaring that a state of war exists between the two countries, snapping all political and economic links, abrogating the Indus waters treaty and denying water to eastern Pakistan. If the inflow of jehadis continues, it could blockade Karachi port to deny oil to Pakistan. Only after that fails, should the military option be adopted.]
Will one Indian please outline for me in simple terms, what will the ``war aims`` of the campaign be? To strike at a few tents or training camps in Western Kashmir, training camps that could be re-constituted anywhere anytime?
What are the aims?
It seems to me that none of this is being thought out clearly or rationally. Its just a heightened impulse to fight Pakistan. And Vajpayee and Advanis instincts are to kill kill kill...and then what?
There seems to be a tangible war hysteria amongst the masses. I cannot help thinking that this crop of leaders simply lack the intelllect or desire to address the issues in any other way. It is a huge cop out.
Please dont jump down my throat, I am not a peacenik by any means, but tell me what are the strategic aims and limits of what India is going to achieve in the coming campaign? All the talk of ``decisive action`` is too nebulous for me. What does this constitute? Where , how?
Where is the strategy?
-h-
#317 Posted by Lajwanti on May 22, 2002 1:31:34 pm
Reply Tahmed # 276
“progressive #269 By no stretch can you be considered a muslim. “
Ia m saY: HAMZAD IS ABU HOORAYRAH!!!!!!!
Ia m corruct, no? Whyy ouare wast time talking with Abu Hoorayrah?
Yoush ould drink Rooh Afza and relaxing.
“progressive #269 By no stretch can you be considered a muslim. “
Ia m saY: HAMZAD IS ABU HOORAYRAH!!!!!!!
Ia m corruct, no? Whyy ouare wast time talking with Abu Hoorayrah?
Yoush ould drink Rooh Afza and relaxing.
#316 Posted by Romair on May 22, 2002 3:14:22 am
Following are excerpts from a must read book by William Baker, titled, ``Kashmir-Happy Valley, Valley of Death.`` It is filled with pictures of Indian atrocities in Kashmir. On the cover is the picture of his guide, a Kashmiri Muslim heart surgeon, who was assasinated, with multiple bullet wounds by Indian soldiers. The author quotes 45,000 deaths in Kashmir, with thousands more missing and executed in mass graves.
It is very important to not allow Kashmir to be painted as a Pakistani based terrorist conspiracy. At the very least, Pakistanis need to understand what is going on, and how it has nothing to do with sectarian violence in Pakistan. Sectarian militancy is not a problem sent to Pakistan by the Kashmiris. If anything, it is the other way around. I don`t know how illogical solutions like converting LOC into border, as a long term solution to the Kashmir problem, can be considered. Will that increase the violence against the Indian Kashmiris or decrease it? If Pakistan doesn`t suport their cause of self-determination than who else will? As a human being, it is our responsibility to first feel sympathy for people in our own neighborhood and extended neighborhood and then worry about people in the Arab lands.
At the very least, we should not start believing the Indian propoganda on Kashmir. Punjabi cultural and musical ties are important with India, but not at the expense of allowing India to murder people. I may love the Indian computer programmer who sits in the office next to me, but that doesn`t mean I should just close my eyes to what is going on in Indian Kashmir.
Professor William Baker writes ``while in the Ambore camp in Azad Kashmir in 1993, `` I met and interviewed a young women who, choking back the tears, told of witnessing the Indian soldiers forcing their way into the mosque while her school teacher was kneeling on her prayer rug and beat her while striping away her clothes. She was then taken out side in the market place, and as Kashmiri men tried to rush up and cover her naked body, they were all shot dead! Finally, they cut off the women`s nose and threw it in the dirt`` (William Baker: ``Kashmir-Happy Valley, Valley of Death).
In another part, he writes, ``He was beaten, stripped of his clothing and then the soldiers sprayed gun powder all over his body and set him on fire. As I filmed the terrible, ragged burns on his legs, thighs, feet, neck, arms and face, I knew that if I survived this fact finding nightmare, I must let the American people and political leadership know the truth about daily atrocities inflicted upon them by the Indian occupation forces. Then and there I made a commitment to God and the people of Kashmir to tell their story upon my safe return to America``. (William Baker: ``Kashmir-Happy Valley, Valley of Death).
``Forced confessions are obtained by having parents, upon hearing their children`s screams from the next room and being prevented from knowing what is being done to the child, sign and admit to anything in order to save their child. Many of these so-called confessions made public by Indian officials have been obtained in just such a manner. I learned that use of torture is so pervasive that each of the occupation forces have their own torture centres. One dark evening, during a curfew and riding on the back of a motorcycle with no lights and a muffler suppressor so we could not be heard, I went to four of the twelve known torture centres. Being just outside the buildings, I could hear the screams of those being tortured! And it is those screams, and the faces of the endless parade of victims I personally interviewed which will forever haunt my memories and stalk the corridors of my dreams at night``. (William Baker: ``Kashmir-Happy Valley, Valley of Death).
Gandhi`s soul must be crying as he watches what the Indians are doing. The BJP has pushed all the right buttons, and has brainwashed India again. Apparently, Indians do believe the BJP is a better choice than Gandhi. Since Gandhi himself suggested that Kashmiris should get their right of self-determination.
It is extremely important that people understand what is actually going on in Kashmir. Yes, there is terrorism from various off-shoots of the freedom movement, as in any freedom movement. But that is a huge minority. The overwhelmingly majority of the terrorism is from the Indian side.
The Kashmir freedom cause is a cause of people who have been suppressed for decades and killed in numbers far far higher than Palestinians. It is not Al-Qaeeda, it is not Sipah-e-Sahaba, nor anything else. It is not something that has been created by Pakistani-based insurgents. If it were, then India wouldn`t hesitate to show the rest of the world.
No idiot from Pakistan is going to risk his life, pass through hundreds of thousands of Indian soldiers, over moutains, without food, with no support, just to kill innocent Kashmiris. He will only do so if he wants to target Indian occupational forces. If he wants to kill innocent Kashmiris, he can do so much easier in Pakistan`s Kashmir. Moreover, such people could not survive in Indian Kashmir if they did not have support of the local Kashmiris.
The Kashmiri cause has to be looked as a Kashmiri cause, without Pakistanis or Indians trying to turn it into their own political agenda. And Indians need to first find out their own govt. is doing in there, before they comment on an area where so many human beings have been killed. Indians who have never ever spent a single day in Kashmir are willling to believe the nonsense their govt. keeps feeding them.
If someone wants to hate Pakistan and attack it, they should go ahead. Pakistan can defend itself, since everyone in Pakistan, though not united on most issues, is definitely united against an Indian attack. I know because that was part of my job, at one time. And, unlike in 71, Pakistan will have an ethical stand, this time around.
However, Indians should not try to justify their attacks by hiding behind the Kashmiris they are killing, and then using, ``protection of innocent Kashmiri civilians`` as an excuse, to attack Pakistan. Are Indians really concerned about protecting innocent Kashmiri civilians. At least let the dead bodies of your victims rest in peace.
Any Indian who supports such massive human rights violations holds some responsibility in causing them.
It is very important to not allow Kashmir to be painted as a Pakistani based terrorist conspiracy. At the very least, Pakistanis need to understand what is going on, and how it has nothing to do with sectarian violence in Pakistan. Sectarian militancy is not a problem sent to Pakistan by the Kashmiris. If anything, it is the other way around. I don`t know how illogical solutions like converting LOC into border, as a long term solution to the Kashmir problem, can be considered. Will that increase the violence against the Indian Kashmiris or decrease it? If Pakistan doesn`t suport their cause of self-determination than who else will? As a human being, it is our responsibility to first feel sympathy for people in our own neighborhood and extended neighborhood and then worry about people in the Arab lands.
At the very least, we should not start believing the Indian propoganda on Kashmir. Punjabi cultural and musical ties are important with India, but not at the expense of allowing India to murder people. I may love the Indian computer programmer who sits in the office next to me, but that doesn`t mean I should just close my eyes to what is going on in Indian Kashmir.
Professor William Baker writes ``while in the Ambore camp in Azad Kashmir in 1993, `` I met and interviewed a young women who, choking back the tears, told of witnessing the Indian soldiers forcing their way into the mosque while her school teacher was kneeling on her prayer rug and beat her while striping away her clothes. She was then taken out side in the market place, and as Kashmiri men tried to rush up and cover her naked body, they were all shot dead! Finally, they cut off the women`s nose and threw it in the dirt`` (William Baker: ``Kashmir-Happy Valley, Valley of Death).
In another part, he writes, ``He was beaten, stripped of his clothing and then the soldiers sprayed gun powder all over his body and set him on fire. As I filmed the terrible, ragged burns on his legs, thighs, feet, neck, arms and face, I knew that if I survived this fact finding nightmare, I must let the American people and political leadership know the truth about daily atrocities inflicted upon them by the Indian occupation forces. Then and there I made a commitment to God and the people of Kashmir to tell their story upon my safe return to America``. (William Baker: ``Kashmir-Happy Valley, Valley of Death).
``Forced confessions are obtained by having parents, upon hearing their children`s screams from the next room and being prevented from knowing what is being done to the child, sign and admit to anything in order to save their child. Many of these so-called confessions made public by Indian officials have been obtained in just such a manner. I learned that use of torture is so pervasive that each of the occupation forces have their own torture centres. One dark evening, during a curfew and riding on the back of a motorcycle with no lights and a muffler suppressor so we could not be heard, I went to four of the twelve known torture centres. Being just outside the buildings, I could hear the screams of those being tortured! And it is those screams, and the faces of the endless parade of victims I personally interviewed which will forever haunt my memories and stalk the corridors of my dreams at night``. (William Baker: ``Kashmir-Happy Valley, Valley of Death).
Gandhi`s soul must be crying as he watches what the Indians are doing. The BJP has pushed all the right buttons, and has brainwashed India again. Apparently, Indians do believe the BJP is a better choice than Gandhi. Since Gandhi himself suggested that Kashmiris should get their right of self-determination.
It is extremely important that people understand what is actually going on in Kashmir. Yes, there is terrorism from various off-shoots of the freedom movement, as in any freedom movement. But that is a huge minority. The overwhelmingly majority of the terrorism is from the Indian side.
The Kashmir freedom cause is a cause of people who have been suppressed for decades and killed in numbers far far higher than Palestinians. It is not Al-Qaeeda, it is not Sipah-e-Sahaba, nor anything else. It is not something that has been created by Pakistani-based insurgents. If it were, then India wouldn`t hesitate to show the rest of the world.
No idiot from Pakistan is going to risk his life, pass through hundreds of thousands of Indian soldiers, over moutains, without food, with no support, just to kill innocent Kashmiris. He will only do so if he wants to target Indian occupational forces. If he wants to kill innocent Kashmiris, he can do so much easier in Pakistan`s Kashmir. Moreover, such people could not survive in Indian Kashmir if they did not have support of the local Kashmiris.
The Kashmiri cause has to be looked as a Kashmiri cause, without Pakistanis or Indians trying to turn it into their own political agenda. And Indians need to first find out their own govt. is doing in there, before they comment on an area where so many human beings have been killed. Indians who have never ever spent a single day in Kashmir are willling to believe the nonsense their govt. keeps feeding them.
If someone wants to hate Pakistan and attack it, they should go ahead. Pakistan can defend itself, since everyone in Pakistan, though not united on most issues, is definitely united against an Indian attack. I know because that was part of my job, at one time. And, unlike in 71, Pakistan will have an ethical stand, this time around.
However, Indians should not try to justify their attacks by hiding behind the Kashmiris they are killing, and then using, ``protection of innocent Kashmiri civilians`` as an excuse, to attack Pakistan. Are Indians really concerned about protecting innocent Kashmiri civilians. At least let the dead bodies of your victims rest in peace.
Any Indian who supports such massive human rights violations holds some responsibility in causing them.
#315 Posted by babu on May 22, 2002 3:14:22 am
Romair 312:
Lone`s son has different views.
Moderate Separatist Leader Is Assassinated in Kashmir
Muslim Drew Militants` Ire for Seeking Talks With India
By Rama Lakshmi and Rajiv Chandrasekaran
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, May 22, 2002; Page A26
...
The killing of Abdul Ghani Lone, who was gunned down in broad daylight as he left a rally memorializing another assassinated Kashmiri independence leader, could deal a serious setback to India`s efforts to settle a separatist insurgency in Kashmir, a violence-wracked Himalayan territory divided between India and Pakistan.
Lone, 70, was a senior leader of the All Parties Hurriyet Conference, a group of political and religious parties that advocate the separation of Kashmir, where the population is predominantly Muslim, from the rest of India, which is overwhelmingly Hindu. But unlike other members of the conference, Lone favored dialogue with India, supported a cease-fire and objected to the participation of fighters from Pakistan in the separatist campaign – positions that earned him the ire of hard-line militant organizations. Lone also had been expected to field several proxy candidates in state legislative elections in September, a move that some of his opponents called a sellout to India.
``This is a great tragedy. It is a hard blow not only to the Hurriyet Conference but also to the people of Kashmir,`` Abdul Ghani Bhatt, a senior Hurriyet member, said as he stared at Lone`s corpse, which was covered with a white sheet outside his house tonight. ``We have lost a seasoned leader who could blend his experience with political reality.``
...
Witnesses said Lone was shot after the rally as he left the wooden stage and walked toward a row of white sedans. Officials said he was shot in the chest at close range by two men with pistols, who beckoned him to follow them off the stage.
...
An Indian intelligence official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said the shooting likely was the result of a ``clash between the moderates and the hard-liners in the Hurriyet.``
As Lone`s body was brought home tonight, hundreds of mourners converged on his house. Wailing women surrounded the body, some of whom beat their chests and cried out, ``Whose curse is this?``
Addressing the mourners, Lone`s son, Sajjad Lone, blamed Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence agency and a conservative Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, for the attack.
``The ISI is behind this,`` he said, his eyes bloodshot and his finger wagging. ``Mr. Geelani and Pakistan [are] behind this.``
Geelani later came to pay his respects. ``He was like a brother to me,`` Geelani told reporters. ``This could be a conspiracy, nothing else.``
But within minutes, angry mourners accosted Geelani and he made a hasty retreat.
In recent months, Lone had made little secret of his disgust with the role that Pakistani-based extremist groups have played in Indian Kashmir, accusing them of co-opting the Kashmiri independence campaign.
``There was a time when we wanted them, but now they should just go home,`` Lone said in an interview in December. ``They don`t support an independent Kashmir. It`s just part of their international struggle to Islamicize the world.``
At a meeting in Dubai last month, he reportedly told the ISI chief and the governor of Pakistani-controlled Kashmir that non-Kashmiri militants should stop participating in the struggle.
``It did not go down well,`` said an official familiar with the meeting.
On Monday, Lone gave a lecture organized by Hurriyet in which he said he was ``not averse to talking with India or anyone else, and Kashmir, like any mature political struggle, should be innovative in its strategy.``
Although Lone had not indicated that he would run in the September state elections, many political observers expected him to field proxy candidates who might have been able to broach political discussions with the national government. Vajpayee has said he would be willing to enter into a dialogue with anyone who wins the election.
Lone, whose pro-separatist but anti-violence stance made him far more enemies than friends, was the target of three attacks in past six months. In April, he was accosted by a Hindu nationalist during a news conference. In November, Lone said he had been threatened by a militant Islamic group, and two weeks later shots were fired at his house.
Kumar, the police inspector general, said he had repeatedly told Lone ``not to venture out.`` Kumar said Lone was given two police guards, both of whom were shot today. One was killed and the other was seriously wounded.
#314 Posted by shammi on May 22, 2002 3:14:22 am
Romair, you ask:
``...Why in the world would Pakistan want Mr. Lone killed...APHC has rejected any election in Kashmir.... India is bent upon holding elections...``
The answer is provided by one Colin Powell:
``His killers are clearly among those who oppose a peaceful political resolution there. This was a terrorist act designed to undermine the hopes of the Kashmiri people for free and fair elections without violence,`` he (Colin Powell) said.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&615&e=12&u=/nm/20020521/pl_nm/southasia_kashmir_powell_dc_1
Can you say, 2+2 equals 4?
``...Why in the world would Pakistan want Mr. Lone killed...APHC has rejected any election in Kashmir.... India is bent upon holding elections...``
The answer is provided by one Colin Powell:
``His killers are clearly among those who oppose a peaceful political resolution there. This was a terrorist act designed to undermine the hopes of the Kashmiri people for free and fair elections without violence,`` he (Colin Powell) said.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&615&e=12&u=/nm/20020521/pl_nm/southasia_kashmir_powell_dc_1
Can you say, 2+2 equals 4?
#313 Posted by rsridhar on May 22, 2002 3:14:22 am
re: War looks imminent
Read the following Url:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/may/21war1.htm
The following paragraphs are of interest to Indians and should be of concern to Pakistanis:
``It is rumoured the government is making discreet enquiries to locate suitable retired armed forces officers to act as administrators for major Pakistani cities like Lahore, Islamabad etc in case these have to be administered by us after capture.
The reason Home Minister Advani has made this statement now seems a move directed at Pakistan to convince it that India means business and is dead serious. Else, the various provisions of the War Book are already under implementation.``
So, the supreme Muhajir turned Supreme Whore has now mangaged to steer his benighted nation towards a disastrous situation. Much of this has to do with the stereotypic thinking of the Army brass. They are totally detached from the masses and do not care a SH!T what happens to them in case of war. Imagine what would have happened if India were ruled by a military dictator. There would be war by now. Miltary dictators do not have to answer to the public. Pakistanis will live to regret the day when they believed this Whore can do them or their country any good.
Sridhar
Read the following Url:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/may/21war1.htm
The following paragraphs are of interest to Indians and should be of concern to Pakistanis:
``It is rumoured the government is making discreet enquiries to locate suitable retired armed forces officers to act as administrators for major Pakistani cities like Lahore, Islamabad etc in case these have to be administered by us after capture.
The reason Home Minister Advani has made this statement now seems a move directed at Pakistan to convince it that India means business and is dead serious. Else, the various provisions of the War Book are already under implementation.``
So, the supreme Muhajir turned Supreme Whore has now mangaged to steer his benighted nation towards a disastrous situation. Much of this has to do with the stereotypic thinking of the Army brass. They are totally detached from the masses and do not care a SH!T what happens to them in case of war. Imagine what would have happened if India were ruled by a military dictator. There would be war by now. Miltary dictators do not have to answer to the public. Pakistanis will live to regret the day when they believed this Whore can do them or their country any good.
Sridhar
#312 Posted by rsridhar on May 22, 2002 3:14:22 am
re:Reply #: 312
Romair,
Why should India kill Lone when he was one of the few moderate voices. He had been calling for the exclusion of foreign militants from Kashmiri freedom struggle. It is very likely he was killed by extremist elements who did not agree with his views. People close to Gillani.
Sridhar
Romair,
Why should India kill Lone when he was one of the few moderate voices. He had been calling for the exclusion of foreign militants from Kashmiri freedom struggle. It is very likely he was killed by extremist elements who did not agree with his views. People close to Gillani.
Sridhar
#311 Posted by hobbyty on May 22, 2002 3:14:22 am
Tahmed
``This is the depth of shame and insanity to which the evil of religious fanaticism, the lust for power, the absence of reason and honesty and truth, have brought us.`` Karachi Gujjrat bangaya,
Baat kahan se kahan phohnoj gaieei.
Indeed, I share with you the sense of shame, of increduculous absence of reason, honesty and truth.
I would remind you that we differ with regard to Captive Kashmir only on a strategy: to ``bite the bullet`` all at once or to take into account other political realities that would suggest a deeper, slower course. We both agree that a change in the Kashmir policy will have to be effected - we disagree in that this need not means the capitulation, the denial, of what the Kashmiri has sacrified for.
``This is the depth of shame and insanity to which the evil of religious fanaticism, the lust for power, the absence of reason and honesty and truth, have brought us.`` Karachi Gujjrat bangaya,
Baat kahan se kahan phohnoj gaieei.
Indeed, I share with you the sense of shame, of increduculous absence of reason, honesty and truth.
I would remind you that we differ with regard to Captive Kashmir only on a strategy: to ``bite the bullet`` all at once or to take into account other political realities that would suggest a deeper, slower course. We both agree that a change in the Kashmir policy will have to be effected - we disagree in that this need not means the capitulation, the denial, of what the Kashmiri has sacrified for.
#310 Posted by Ralph on May 22, 2002 3:14:22 am
He paid with his life for defying ISI
Rahul Datta/New Delhi
The slain Hurriyat leader Abdul Ghani Lone had resisted pressure from Pakistan`s ISI to oppose efforts to restore peace in Jammu and Kashmir and boycott the forthcoming Assembly polls in Jammu and Kashmir.
Lone and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, the moderate leaders of the All-Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC), had gone to Dubai in April to attend a conference where the president of Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir (POK) National Committee on Kashmir, Sardar Abdul Qayum Khan, was also present. Top ISI officers, including its director Ahsan-ul-Haq and Kashmir Cell chief Brigadier Abdullah met Lone and the Mirwaiz and tried to pressurise them to resist any move towards bringing peace in Kashmir.
The ISI officers also tried to force the two moderate leaders to boycott the forthcoming Assembly elections in the strife-torn State. Lone and Mirwaiz, however, bluntly refused these suggestions from the Pakistani`s and Lone reportedly told the ISI chief that they did not understand the ground realities in Kashmir, sources said here on Tuesday.
Lone reportedly told the ISI leaders in a forceful manner that the ordinary Kashmiris were tired of the decade-long violence and wanted peace and Sardar Qayum Khan supported him.
Lone, a respected leader in the Valley, had firmly spoken against jehadis when he was in Pakistan during his daughter`s marriage. His speech, described as a bold and important development in Kashmir politics, contained explicit suggestions to Pakistan-supported hardcore terrorists that nobody could play with the sentiments of Kashmiri people.
Incidentally, Lone was one of the Kashmiri leaders who appreciated Prime Minister Atal Bihiri Vajpayee`s Agra initiative and strongly favoured the resolution of Kashmir dispute through dialogue.
The ailing leader had recently gone to the US for medical treatment and returned to India on Monday and even participated in a seminar in Delhi before leaving for Kashmir.
Rahul Datta/New Delhi
The slain Hurriyat leader Abdul Ghani Lone had resisted pressure from Pakistan`s ISI to oppose efforts to restore peace in Jammu and Kashmir and boycott the forthcoming Assembly polls in Jammu and Kashmir.
Lone and Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, the moderate leaders of the All-Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC), had gone to Dubai in April to attend a conference where the president of Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir (POK) National Committee on Kashmir, Sardar Abdul Qayum Khan, was also present. Top ISI officers, including its director Ahsan-ul-Haq and Kashmir Cell chief Brigadier Abdullah met Lone and the Mirwaiz and tried to pressurise them to resist any move towards bringing peace in Kashmir.
The ISI officers also tried to force the two moderate leaders to boycott the forthcoming Assembly elections in the strife-torn State. Lone and Mirwaiz, however, bluntly refused these suggestions from the Pakistani`s and Lone reportedly told the ISI chief that they did not understand the ground realities in Kashmir, sources said here on Tuesday.
Lone reportedly told the ISI leaders in a forceful manner that the ordinary Kashmiris were tired of the decade-long violence and wanted peace and Sardar Qayum Khan supported him.
Lone, a respected leader in the Valley, had firmly spoken against jehadis when he was in Pakistan during his daughter`s marriage. His speech, described as a bold and important development in Kashmir politics, contained explicit suggestions to Pakistan-supported hardcore terrorists that nobody could play with the sentiments of Kashmiri people.
Incidentally, Lone was one of the Kashmiri leaders who appreciated Prime Minister Atal Bihiri Vajpayee`s Agra initiative and strongly favoured the resolution of Kashmir dispute through dialogue.
The ailing leader had recently gone to the US for medical treatment and returned to India on Monday and even participated in a seminar in Delhi before leaving for Kashmir.
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