The Last Crusade

Kafir saheb...Being so concerned about the Pakistani GDP, and your (and my) country`s welfare as you are, my question is this: Why nuke the Kashmiris, be they crooked or otherwise? How about Pakistan just getting out of Kashmir all together, and leaving the crooked or otherwise Kashmiris to their own fate?

And come on, really, if this is the way to take care of the crooked Kashmiris as you call them, how do you suggest taking care of much of our own crooked Pakistani folk? To borrow from one of my favorite fictional alien characters, `your response is highly illogical.`

Audio Video Radio..you`re right. there is something wrong. I was going to suggest it could be that we don`t drink the same kind of water as our military masters, but I`m quite certain it goes deeper than that.

Re: AUdio-VIdeo-Radio # 456

Just a friendly correction...

Hitler`s strassenkampfers (street fighters) were known as the ``Brown Shirts``. Black Shirts was the term given to Mussolini`s fascetti - facists, because of the color of their uniform.

Secondly, since we are discussing this issue, could you, or anyone else for that matter,please explain to me the similarity between the swastika and the Hindu symbol of a similar design? What is that Hindu symbol supposed to represensent...because every time I see it, I start thinking of Leni Rifenstahl`s Triumph des Willen and of Nurnberg in 1938 and of the Nurnberg laws..

Ciao

Audio-Video #457 Thanks for taking the time to put down your views, and for your kind words to me personally. So far I had read only one liners from you which seemed to be no more than potshots at muslims. In this post you provide a better understanding of your thinking, and I read it with interest. While it may not matter whether we agree or disagree on everything you say (as you indicate), here are a couple of thoughts anyway:

1. You are partly right in saying that muslims tend to have a hostile view of non-muslims: partly right, because SOME muslims certainly have this view. But, I think you are partly wrong as well, since OTHER muslims do not. And muslims are not unique in this: there are people with different mindsets in every community. The evidence is right here on chowk given the variety of ways of thinking that posters show.

2. It is not fair to expect Pakistanis to replace the military government with a civilian one. By definition, a military government is there by force, not by votes. The referendum in Pakistan was meaningless, as Musharaff himself admitted half-heartedly and apologized for in his recent speech (and I give him partial credit for owning up to it). There are two ways to replace a military government: (a) either by street demonstrations - that happens when people are driven to this extreme (in 1966 the Ayub Khan government was brought down by street violence and after the army refused to fire any more on the civilians). (b) Steady evolution of democratic institutions. This is basically the path Musharaff himself is saying he would take. Much will depend on the October elections of the prime minister. My own preference would be an evolutionary path since it does not exact a price in terms of people`s lives.

Hope the above comments make some sense.

re: Kashmiris want to stay in India, at least majority of them.

Url: http://headlines.sify.com/920news5.html

``Fri, May 31, 2002





Majority of Kashmiris want to remain Indian citizens: Poll

London, May 31

As many as 61 percent of the population of Jammu and Kashmir want to remain Indian citizens because they feel they would be thus be politically and economically more secure, while only six percent want to be Pakistani citizens, according to a recent opinion poll.

A large number of them (33 percent) are indecisive. The poll was conducted by FACTS Worldwide, MORI`s affiliate company in India.

Majority of the people are also of the opinion that foreign militants are damaging the `Kashmir cause` and they do not want Kashmir to be divided on the lines of religion and ethnicity.

A whopping majority of 86 percent want an end to militancy and infiltration of militants across the Line of Control (LoC). Two thirds of the population believe that Pakistan`s involvement in the region for the last 10 years has been bad.

The poll also reveals that 80 percent of the people want displaced Kashmiri Pandits to return to their homes in safety. This, they feel, will help bring about peace.

People also believe that, ``The unique cultural identity of Jammu and Kashmir - `Kashmiryat` - should be preserved in any long-term solution.``

Half or more of the population believe that a ``New political party is needed to bring about a permanent solution in Kashmir.``

The poll conducted at the end of April reveals an overwhelming majority of Kashmiris oppose India and Pakistan going to war to find a permanent solution to the Kashmir issue.

They believe the proper way to bring about peace in the region is through democratic elections, ending violence, and economic development.

As many as 93 percent believe that peace in Jammu and Kashmir can be established through economic development while 86 percent advocate holding free and fair elections and 87 percent favour direct talks between the Indian Government and the people of Kashmir.

Views are, however, split on the issue of granting more autonomy to Kashmir. Overall 55 percent support India and Pakistan granting control as much autonomy as they can to the parts of Kashmir under their control and enable them to govern their own affairs. While the majority in Srinagar and Leh supports this policy, the majority in Jammu opposes it.

Views about the role and impact of the Indian security forces are also varied. In Srinagar and Leh, at least nine out of 10 people believe security forces scaling down their operations in Jammu and Kashmir would help bring peace, whereas in Jammu the opinions are reversed.

Perceptions also vary regarding the behaviour of the Indian security forces.

``Nobody interviewed in Leh or Jammu believes that human rights violations by Indian security forces in Jammu and Kashmir are widespread, whereas in Srinagar 64 percent of the population think they are widespread,`` claims the poll.

Even on the matter of human rights violations by militant groups in Jammu and Kashmir, 96 percent of those in Jammu believe such violations are widespread whereas only two percent of those in Srinagar believe they are widespread (although 33 percent believe they are `occasional`).

The poll was conducted between April 20 and 28, 2002. In total, 850 face-to-face interviews were conducted with adults aged 16 and above across 55 localities within Jammu and Kashmir.

This comprised 22 localities in Jammu city, 20 in Srinagar city and 6 in Leh (urban areas) as well as in 3 villages around Jammu and 4 villages around Srinagar (rural areas).

Quotas of subjects for the interview were selected by gender, religion (assessed by observation) and locality, according to the known population profile of the region. A random selection procedure was used to select individual respondents.``

Sridhar

saminashah #453 If India and Pakistan come out unsinged and unradiated from the current crisis, attempts will be made by the US and the ``international community`` I think to take them away from the path that leads to these dangerous situations. And domestic public opinion will no doubt do the same the best it can(through press, elections, peace demonstrations).

Right now, both BJP and Musharaff and co. are stuck having to outmacho one another. Let us hope that one of them will back off before it is too late. One thing is for sure - you keep playing chicken (where two kids compete to see who is the last one to dart across the rail lines in front of an incoming train), sooner or later you end up like a nice flat chappati under a train.

soysauce #451 Your points are all well taken. We have an aggressive military general in Pakistan, and an aggressive political party in India. Wagons are being circled on both sides as you say. The war fever takes on it`s own momentum. The international community, and particularly the US and IK, are clearly doing everything they can to cool things down. But as you say, there are people who see a chance to fry their own fish in the fire - during the Iran-Iraq war, I am told there were factories in Europe that would produce weapons that would at the very end of the process be packaged in separate boxes, one destined for Iran the other for Iraq. But the people really cooking big time in the fire are of course inside the subcontinent already - the US has indicated that Al Qaeda is busy trying to create more incidents to provoke a war between the two countries (and has succeeded in diverting the pakistan army`s attention, thats for sure); the mullahs in Pakistan - who used to be considered jokes in Pakistan, the bottom of the society - are now armed with guns and roaming around like rambos; nationalists on both side feed on the tensions, while the voices of peace and reason are quiet. Not a pretty situation.

temporal #455 Both the Indian military and the Pakistan military have generally been quite civilized in their treatment of prisoners and handling of the dead. Wounded prisoners are treated in the same military hospitals as their ex-foes (I once visited five of them in the Nowshehra military hospital, and they were in a room right next door to a Pakistani army officer we have been visiting). At the graveyard next to the race course grounds in Rawalpindi, I remember once seeing the grave of an Indian soldier many, many years ago. Right there alongside dead paki military people. I dont know how he ended up there, but was the grave was clearly marked and I was told this was a temporary burial until the body could be returned.

With nuclear weapons things are vastly different now. There wont be dead bodies to be handed back correctly, since they would have incinerated. And the wounded will quickly overflow not just military hospitals but all medical facilities. And this correct behavior does not extend beyond each other in the two armies (as is probably true for any regular army in the world): paramilitaries of any kind (terrorists, freedom fighters, whatever you prefer to call them) certainly do not give or receive similar courtesies from any regular army.

re: M.J.Akbar`s interesting article on Indian muslims and why they will not betray India

Mushy was being ridiculous when he pointed fingers at India`s treatment of minorities and referred to Gujarat carnage. Here is M.J.Akbar dealing with the issue. Url:

http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=300382

Excerpts:

1. ``A revealing but rarely revealed fact is that Muslims in the rest of India give no support whatsoever to the separatist insurgency in the Muslim-majority valley of Kashmir, that charming bit of paradise that could yet trigger off history`s first nuclear war.``

2. ``Indian Muslims are the only Muslims in the world to enjoy sustained democracy since the freedom of their country from colonial rule. Muslim nations, particularly Pakistan, have been unable to fashion a polity relevant to the modern age, with governments accountable to a democratic process. Kings and dictators across the Islamic map throttle the Muslim street and offer support to George Bush and Tony Blair in exchange for the mantle of ``indispensability``. Bush and Blair give patronage, patronisingly. Blair believes that there is some cultural deficiency among Saudi Arabs that makes them ineligible for the standards of equality and political freedom that he would never deny to the British.``

3. ``Indian Muslims use democracy with vigour and finesse. They control or influence the results of elections in at least a hundred seats in the Lok Sabha – the House of the People – the directly elected part of India`s Parliament, making it virtually impossible for Hindu fundamentalists to fulfil their dream of gaining an absolute majority by themselves and using power to change India`s secular constitution. It is a neat lock.``

Also interesting is M.J.Akbar`s views on Mushy boy.

Read on from the url.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 439

khamkhwa,

The guy who said it is a hardliner. Syed Shahabuddin is no friend of BJP and does not care what BJP thinks about him.

Sridhar

tahmed321 #445:

...cemetery for the kargil dead?…am not aware of any graveyard dedicated to the war heroes in pakistan…as i wrote somewhere…’we respect neither the living nor the dead’…

...damn…

…in the olden days the armies had traditions and gentlemanly conduct even in war…now it is all convenience and politics…our fauji jamadars …if i recall correctly…refused to accept the dead bodies of our soldiers from the indians because ‘officially’ they were in denial…and the indians buried them with full military honors…

…and in the aftermath of ’71…think it was field marshal sam manekshaw…who wrote to the then pakistan army chief to honor a Pakistani solider who fought the indians valiantly in that conflict…

rgds,

t

Ferozk #449 I too have an interest in past wars, even as I pray that the world progresses beyond this stage and we are spared future wars (wars are becoming increasingly destructive due to advancements in technology, and there is enough to go around for everyone anyway). In the US, they have preserved the civil war battlefields, and I have visited all of the major ones in our area. The common theme is not the glory, but the carnage that took place - 19,000 men killed in a single day at Antietem; wave after wave of Southerners mowed down at the wheat field in Gettysburg; hand to hand fighting in the wooded areas at the Wilderness.

When I was in school in Pakistan, I came across a thick book (almost a thousand pages of tiny print, two columns per page) on Napoleon written in the 19th century (by a man named Abbott). While he was obviously an admirer of Napoleon (I think he met him in real life), the one word I still recall that kept recurring in his book was ``sanguine`` (used to mean ``bloody`` even though nowadays it is not often used and means something different, i.e. ``hopeful``). The same theme recurs in books and descriptons of the US civil war battles. And one reads about huge numbers in WWI and WWII (I think almost 30 million Chinese were killed in that war, and perhaps 50 million Germans and an equal number of Russians).

And these are just the well documented or preserved battles. God knows about the misery that people have seen in past wars in the subcontinent - the battles of Panipat and so forth.

And yet, all these killings do not register until you experience it yourself directly or indirectly (as I mentioned in my previous post about 1965 and 1971).

On chowk (which provides an interesting view into the mindset of many people), the person who I think came out first and most loud and clear against dragging both countries into war was Stuka - an Indian poster with a military background. Even as his kin and mine are technically ``enemies`` since they are in opposing armies, and even as both will no doubt do their duty if war starts, I can relate 100% to him and his people and pray for their safe return to their homes as much as I do mine. The empty vessels will keep rattling, but let us hope no one has to see the real thing.

audio-video #447 you write ``Chances of war recede by 50% if LK Advani is sacked and risk of war becomes zero is Musharaf is kicked out. ``

Your post leaves in a state of shock. It actually makes some sense!! You cannot by the audio-video we all thought we had come to know.

Ferozk, Tahmed

Hear hear!

As disturbing as it sounds, it seems that many people would rather resolve conflicts in a never ending cycle of violence rather than the process of negotiating and compromising. The Indian and Pakistani religious right wing/military/conservatives seem to think that they have the legitimacy to ruin the subcontinent.

#441 tahmed

I don`t think BJP would have waged war without a consensus or at least overwhelming sentiment in india for war. They are certainly driving towards obtaining that consensus because war would be a good diversion. The purpose behind massing the army is to browbeat, pakistan which, you have to admit they did with some success - look back to Mushy`s Jan 13 speech.

``This is what I am saying: For India, the nukes and missiles are militarily redundant and therefore useless. For Pakistan, they are a strategic defense. While in the worst case, both India and Pakistan would suffer terrible losses and long-term effects, for Pakistan an equally bad scenario is occupation by a hostile foreign army. So what we have is an asynchronous situation.``

It`s true that nukes can be an equalizer. As i said i can understand pakistanis taking comfort in the fact that they are not going to be overwhelmed in the next war. However, i do hope that sanity prevails, and that monumental civilizational decisions are not left to politicians and generals who are moved by short-term compulsions. I understand that Mushy has been WEAKENED by the referendum and playing the tough army guy he may be trying to reassert himself - something that may not be good for pakistan in the long run. Both the BJP and the pak army are trying to circle the wagons and they seem to be doing that with some success judging at least by the reactions of the above average crowd here.

Knowing our ``leaders``, the next phase will be one in which india will try to procure/develop technology for the preemptive strike of pak missile & nuclear facilities. The french, israelis, english, swedes & the yankees stand to make a lot of money. It would be a lot simpler (but much harder) to swallow our pride and try to sort things out thru negotiations.

I am absolutely certain about one thing. I am against india strengthening pak military. Negotiating with the military may work in the short term but it`s bad for india (& pak) in the long term. I`d like to see india declare that it is willing to discuss (without preconditions) kashmir and other outstanding issues with an ELECTED GOVERNMENT of pakistan, sidelining pak military. Vajpayee has been making one wrong move after another & i`d like to see him and his lot cast out. There is a time for war and there`s a time for peace. I hope the time for peace is just around the corner.

2800 final count of dead in WTC attack .Instead of panic hysterical reponse of lashing out against muslims all over ,had they Ashcrofoids had been professional enough ,may be even 2800 might have been ALIVE!!!



FBI Admits Lapses Prior to Sept. 11



By TED BRIDIS

WASHINGTON (AP) - FBI Director Robert Mueller, acknowledging serious lapses in how the FBI mishandled some information prior to Sept. 11, suggested for the first time that investigators might have detected the terrorist plot if they had pursued leads more diligently.

Mueller`s acknowledgment came amid fresh disclosures of what could be missed hints about threats from suicide hijackings, including efforts by an unidentified Middle Eastern country to buy a commercial flight simulator.

``The jury is still out on all of it,`` Mueller said Wednesday at FBI headquarters. ``Looking at it right now, I can`t say for sure it would not have, that there wasn`t a possibility that we could have come across some lead that would have led us to the hijackers.``

Mueller`s remarks came after his announcement of a broad reorganization of the nation`s premier law enforcement agency, partly in response to criticism of the FBI after Sept. 11. The FBI`s new marching orders will focus on terrorists, spies and hackers, in that order.

The Justice Department also is making changes to support the FBI. Attorney General John Ashcroft was to announce new guidelines Thursday lifting restrictions on the FBI`s use of the Internet and public libraries to give agents more freedom to investigate terrorism even when they are not pursuing a particular case.

Under existing rules, FBI agents are not allowed to do general research on the Internet or at public libraries unless the information sought directly relates to a current investigation or to leads being checked out.

Those limits ``extended even to publicly available information that everyone else is free to access, and even to information that could plainly be valuable in generally facilitating investigative activities and preventing terrorism,`` according to a Justice Department memo.

The new rules allow agents to conduct ``general topical research`` and ``pure surfing`` designed to find Web sites, chat rooms or Internet bulletin boards with information about terror, bomb-making instructions, child pornography or stolen credit cards.

The new rules also will make it easier for FBI agents to begin and pursue terrorism investigations without approval from FBI headquarters; give local FBI officials more authority to approve undercover operations in emergency situations; and let agents conduct preliminary investigations for up to six months without special approval from headquarters.

Mueller`s statement represented the first time any senior official in the Bush administration has said counterterrorism investigators might have detected and averted the Sept. 11 hijackings if they had recognized what they were collecting. That question is the focus of a congressional inquiry, and almost certain to come up next week during Senate Judiciary Committee hearings on the FBI`s reorganization plans.

``Putting all the pieces together, who is to say?`` Mueller said, though he also noted that those pieces amounted to ``snippets in a veritable river of information.`` Mueller took over as FBI director just days before Sept. 11.

``It is critically important that we have that connection of dots that will enable us to prevent the next attack,`` Mueller said Wednesday. ``Headquarters has to assume a responsibility for assuring that information comes in, that information is analyzed and that information is disseminated.``

President Bush has bristled over suggestions that the government had collected enough clues to avert the attacks. ``Had I known that the enemy was going to use airplanes to kill on that fateful morning, I would have done everything in my power to protect the American people,`` Bush said earlier this month.

The FBI disclosed two other clues Wednesday that it said might be relevant to the investigation into the September hijackings. A Middle Eastern country where U.S. shipments are restricted sought unsuccessfully before Sept. 11 to buy a commercial flight simulator, and an FBI pilot in 1998 expressed concerns to a supervisor in Oklahoma City about a number of Arab men seeking flight training.

The unidentified pilot told his supervisor ``that he has observed large numbers of Middle Eastern males receiving flight training at Oklahoma airports in recent months,`` according to a copy of the one-page memo, under the heading ``Weapons of Mass Destruction.`` The FBI memo, dated May 18, 1998, was marked ``routine`` and never was forwarded to headquarters.

The pilot added that ``this is a recent phenomenon and may be related to planned terrorist activity.`` He also ``speculates that light planes would be an ideal means of spreading chemical or biological agents.``

The FBI would not identify the country that sought to buy the simulator except to say it was not one publicly connected to Sept. 11. It said the information was given to the FBI by another U.S. agency that it would not identify.

Mueller expressed regret about FBI headquarters mishandling a July 10, 2001, memo from its Phoenix office about a large number of Arabs seeking pilot, security and airport operations training at a U.S. flight school. Midlevel FBI managers should have immediately given the memo to top officials who might have recognized its significance, he said.

He has asked the Justice Department`s inspector general to investigate whether any FBI employees should be punishe

Re: Tahmad321

First of all, thanks for appreciating my thoughts in that poem. I wrote that poem, while I was in the states and thus, did not visit any such last resting place for the victims of Kargil. The sentiments expressed in that poem, were universal and were a reflection of my own personal dismay.

I am, and have been, a keen student of military history for the last 30 years and in particular, I study war as a human and political phenomena. In a really morbid sense, my favorite hobby is the study of war. In the pursuit of this hobby, I have done extensive research into the subject of war. I have talked with the veterans from Pakistan, India, Japan, United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Germany and one really interesting veteran of the Hungarian army, who deserted his unit, when the Soviets invaded Hungary in 1956, by escaping to Austria.

The best such encounter was in 1996, when the American Veterans of Foreign Wars held their convention in Salt Lake City and I met many survivors of Normandy and of Operation Olympus; the American code name for the invasion of southern Japanese islands in the fall of 1945 - which never happened due to the use of nuclear weapons on the Japanese cities in the summer of 1945.

Being so deeply engrossed in the study of war, I have developed over the years a profound hatred for it and I resent this obscenity masqurading as a necessity in our lives. The poem, whose link Temporal gave you, was simply an emotional response to a needless tradedy. The key to the poem, was a feeling, which I had that simply suggested that every soldier, who dies is some mother`s child and was loved by others and loved others in his life; he may be gone, but how will those left behind, will that singular vacuum in their lives.

It is my considered believe that those who are the loudest protagonists for war have never seen its unmitigated horrors and will never experience its suffering. Since they have nothing to lose personally, they are willing to kill others in order to assuage themselves of the nobility of their patriotism. There is a common saying amongst the veterans that you can always tell the difference between a veteran and a recruit. A veteran is a person who is scared at the coming battle and does not wish to fight, for he knows perfectly well what awaits him and a recruit is eager for battle, because he does not know what will happen.

Pakistani and Indians are eager for war, because they do not understand what modern war is likey to be. A Sandhurst trained Indian general, in my opinion, captured this sentiment best by describing the Indian-Pakistani wars as periodic bouts of communal riots with armor! In past, all our wars were limited and in all of them, both the nations suffered no more than 10,000 casualities. Since then, we have a flawed idea that wars can remain limited and this next war will also follow a similar patteren. What both the nations have to understand is that there is no difference between a limited and an all out nuclear war, because the end will be just the same: anniliation.

We, South Asians, will never progress beyond the shrill political finger pointing if we do not, for a lack of a better word, ``secularize`` the issue of Kashmir from our mutual domestic politics. I had argued, in another article on Chowk, that Kashmir is not a bilateral problem/issue, between India and Pakistan. Kashmir is a domestic issue/problem in both our nations. To solve this issue, there has to a domestic understanding on this issue that it is a political problem of our own engineering. In order to solve Kashmir, we have to stop using it as a political aid to prop up our political interests in a domestic sense. Once Kashmir is removed from the domestic politics, there will be enough political latitude in both Pakistan and India to solve this problem.

However, chances of this happening are nil. The reason being that we have blended this issue with a religious flavor topped by a nationalist ideology, which is uncompromising. On top of this, our common approach to the problem is dictated by an emotionalism compounded by a sense of political paralysis - we are afraid to question the utility of our own historic stance on Kashmir lest our own sense of patriotism might be questioned and we may lose our political ``credit card`` to power.

On the issue of Kashmir, we are so blinded by our common hatred for the other side that we cannot see the reality, which says that Kashmiris want independence and do not wish be aligned with either India or Pakistan.

Ciao

P.S.: Sorry for this long post...:)