The Last Crusade

Akash MiaN:



I am `glad` that with that loaded phrase -- ``final solution`` -- you meant only war not genocide -- not to say that War by any means solves any problem to its finality -- yet your new definition of ``final solution`` is much less traumatic to the senses than the old one.

You are a decent human being Akash miaN -- in the best tradition of Indian humanist secularism -- keep up the good work.

cordially,

hasan the delusional peacenik

temporal #353 How about if the item made in Israel is on sale? Surely you will make an exception on the boycott to that.

Also, could you please remind me why I should care about Palestinians when the have the whole Arab world caring about them. When I could be caring about the suffering people of Pakistan who are invisible to the Arab world.

NUKE US!----Hindians are able,willing & ready.

Now THIS is called progress & civilisation.

From Indian Express



Where cowdung is for radioactivity, cow-urine for everything else

At RSS-run centre, cowdung and urine products are peddled as ‘cures’ for kidney ailments, indigestion and skin cancer

SUKHMANI SINGH

JAIPUR, SEPTEMBER 27: SCIENTISTS the world over who’ve spent years and billions on designing nuclear radiation-proof bunkers may do well to pack up and move to Jaipur instead. Where, the RSS-run Gau Seva Sangh claims to have at hand the one element that will guarantee protection against the horrors of nuclear radiation: cowdung. Cover the roof of your house with it for total immunity; better still, lather yourself with cowdung as a protective shield, says RSS functionary Brahmdutt Sharma.

There’s much, much more to choose from at the 15-acre Gau Seva Sangh and naturopathy hospital at Durgapura in the Rajasthan capital. Take your pick: a soap fashioned out of dung, cow urine and multani mitti, face powder, a digestive churan that combines urine with pepper, ghee and asafoetida, Netrajyoti eyedrops, shampoo, an aid for teething infants, an oil for leucoderma, another for skin diseases and cancer... There’s even a urine-based aphrodisiac, but by far, the hottest item is ark, undiluted cow urine.

In fact, a dung-urine combination is even used to run a clock. A copper and zinc plate with two wires is attached to two tins filled with the two elements and connected to the rear in place of cells. And presto, the energy generated makes the clock tick—but only for 15 days. It needs replenishments to start ticking again.

Each morning, litres and litres of urine from 155 Thar Parker cows are collected and treated over a slow fire. The liquid is then used to cook up various products which are sold between Rs 10 and Rs 100. The institute boasts of sales of up to a lakh a month.

In fact, Sharma, a Gandhian and ex-forester, attributes his fitness at the age of 78 to a daily dose of cow urine. ‘‘Here, we don’t consider urine as waste matter. It improves circulation and purifies the blood,’’ he says. His prescription: strain fresh cow urine through a cloth folded eight times and then drink it on an empty stomach.

For those who can’t stomach this, there are almost 60 other, more palatable options: a haemoglobin booster with urine as the base mixed with jaggery, olivera juice, curd and condensed iron ore and a panch gavya gridh which claims to cure mental illness by tossing up urine, cow dung, milk, curd and ghee. In fact, the three ayurvedic doctors at this centre claim there’s no ailment that cow urine can’t cure. At the centre, the five-odd patients—the in-patient department can house upto seven—recline with urine and cow dung paste on their stomachs, a ‘cure’ for kidney problems. However, though kidney patients throng the centre from across the country, the cure rate seems poor.

Sharma relates the story of 21-year-old Shraddha, a kidney patient who came here from Mumbai’s prestigious Jaslok Hospital and survived without dialysis for two weeks. But she died soon after she left because ‘‘she didn’t adhere to the precautions’’ he says. In fact, patients say that when they leave the centre, they find it hard to keep up with the rigorous treatment schedule.

Each morning, patients wake up to prayers, followed by a yagna where ghee is burnt with cow dung to ‘‘purify the atmosphere’’. Then it’s time for prolonged dung and urine baths. The evenings are spent listening to an hour-long discourse on the Gita. An hour-long satsang at night caps the treatment.

Piyush Mishra, one of the ayurvedic doctors at the complex who spends his day tasting products, says, ‘‘We were the first to begin production of cow urine-based products in 1998 after learning the technique from Rajvaidya Rewa Shankar of Jhalawar. There are now 50 centres in India, of which 10 are in Rajasthan.’’ Apart from gaushalas, all the products are also sold at the offices of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad. And camps are held each Saturday at temples in Rajasthan as well. ‘‘We can barely keep pace with the demand,’’ says Mishra.

Dear Temporal (response to #353),

We should boycott all pakistani goods as well, shouldn`t we? Didn`t that country adopt a religious constitution and asked its minority to leave?

South Africa was a little different where the oppressed did not believe in the extermination of others. With Israel, until recently, the main line PLO actually believed in removing the entire Jewish community. They were pretty inept too. Only when it saw that was not practical it set upon trying to make peace with one hand and try to use violence to bargain for more with the other.

Its a terrible analogy to compare Israel to South Africa. I see more similarities of Israel in its religious segregation more with Pakistan or the Islamic world. There is one exception though we muslims believed that minorties had no right to exist in our ``holy/pure`` lands. Israel still has Arabs in Israel. What ratio of minority live in the Islamic World?

NotAMullah

PS, I would not buy anything with labels from a country without a secular society.

``Would they like to see delhi leveled to avenge the deaths of a few dozen people?``

A few dozen people? You think we are going to war because of one incident? Do you have any idea how many people were killed in the past 12 years? Just beacuse they wear a uniform they are okay to be killed? Their children should grow up orphans?

I have been following your insane logic for a while. Yes, thousands of innocents were killed in Gujarat. That justifies the killing of thousand more elsewhere? The Army should not fight because Gujarat happened? Let`s disband the Police, Army, IAS ...all these are useless institutions because they did not prevent Gujarat?

RE: Reply #: 353 temporal

``Why I`m boycotting anything `made in Israel`

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown

I think we – all those who want Israel to leave the occupied territories – should follow the example of the South African activists. I have already started looking at labels and putting back anything made in Israel. Many of my friends are doing the same.``

I am going to ensure that I buy anything made in Israel. It`s not that I have less sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, but as long as thug groups like Hamas are in charge of their just freedom struggle and as long as they keep sending 16 year old children to kill innocents I know that it is not freedom that they want but the annihilation of Israel and the setup of yet another terrorist state. These groups are as much a danger to Palestinians as are Israeli tanks.

The day people like Hanan Ashrawi come to the fore and present the legitimate, genuine aspirations of the Palestinian people is when I will wholeheartedly support their cause.

[We are exporting water to Pakistan and in return Pakistan is exporting cross-border terrorism]

ali1

Most of the civillian separatist leaders in Kashmir are live - Yasmin Malik, Shabir Shah, Lone (till he was killed), Geelani, Moulvi Farooq etc. They have been imprisoned by Indian security forces but never killed.

India gains nothing by inflaming Kashmiris any further. Pakistan and its cohorts in the Valley have a lot to lose if Kashmiri strike a peace/autonomy deal with India. After September 11, US/EU have put armed rebel movements all over the world on notice. Look at the LTTE talks with the Sri Lankan government.

Rajiv Chandrasekharan was kicked out of Pakistan because Pakistan has a racist policy of discriminating against journalists of Indian origin whether they are Indian citizens or not.

Reply # 348 rsridhar

[We have seen lots of testosterone from Mushy. Let us see some action.]

Actually, Mushy has been calm so far, its Bagpipe and other Hindu monkeys who are shaking with rage in their dhotis. Bagpipe has never married so we cant be too sure about his testosterone level, or whether he has ovaries or gonads or just vaccum in there.

If you want action than you will have to start it dude. But the cowardly dhoti clads that you are, I expect all talk and no action. Like the proverbial whore who cries rape and threatens that her pimp will beat the hell out of her alleged molesters.

[It is highly unlikely that China will come to Pak`s rescue.]

We don`t need China to rescue us from your Mig 21`s that have been cleared to fly now. Dont go near banks in Ludhiana. What a pathetic joke.

[``The next war will be decisive in India`s favor.``]

Yeah sure. Why not start it then? What has stopped you? in December or now?

[``If i were a Paki, i would be praying to Allah for mercy.``]

Pakis like other humans pray to their God for mercy all the time. You like other Hindutva monkeys have several choices: you can pray to your lingum bhagwan, your rat bhagwan or your cow/bull bhagwan.

ferozek # 270

...well said...captured my feelings exactly...but, who am i, a hypocritcal pious pacifist to talk?...war is inevitable and i asked for it...

Re: Harpreet

``...Will one Indian please outline for me in simple terms, what will the ``war aims`` of the campaign be?...``

Stop infiltration. Period. Preferably without a war (using politico-diplomatic means).

We are very, very close to war.

I have nothing but contempt for those who are whipping up the war hysteria without understanding what this present danger is going to bring to the subcontinent. And that includes the ones writing so blithely on Chowk about the need to ``teach someone a lesson``, or about ``patience running out`` or other similar nonsense, while sitting safely abroad. The imminent war seems to be something the BJP wants, and wants it for two reasons:

1. My thinking is that they do not have a dominant majority and a military success against Pakistan would ensure their rule. In their eyes, there is no other way for the BJP to become popular.

2. I think that Vajpayee is in it because he wants the BJP as the ruling party in India but that it is Advani and Fernandez who are determined for war. They have said many times in many speeches that they (the BJP) will destroy Pakistan, that they will ``cripple`` Pakistan, and more in the same vein. It is evident from their rhetoric that the BJP wants a malleable and crippled Pakistan. But the importance of Pakistan in the post-Sept 11 world and the subsequent threat of its resurgence greatly irritated India, and must have agitated Advani and Fernandez enough to cause them to move toward war, as they are now doing. Not because of some terrorist act (which cannot be laid at Pakistan`s door, no matter how creatively the ``evidence`` is twisted). The excuse that will most probably be used is that they will strike against ``militant traing camps within Pakistan``. This has been regularly announced for the last six months. If I were a militant training camp, I would have moved a long time ago. What are the Indian forces going to go and strike now? The excuse is transparent and obvious. I don`t think the funsters in New Delhi have thought too far in their testosterone-induced fantasies: As I write, Pakistan is preparing, and not backing away from the coming fight one inch. Yes Pakistan may lose the war. But the Indians and the BJP don`t seem to realize that a defeated Pakistan poses a threat far, far greater than an undefeated Pakistan. I read that India is quietly recalling retired military personnel for a possible governorship of Lahore, et al. What India needs to make plans for is not contingent governors for Lahore or wherever - what India needs to make serious plans for is - (in the possible event of a defeated Pakistan) - combating a major, long-term, indigenous war from an armed civilian populace that will bring an internal fight from one radioactive land into another radioactive terrain. The talk here among many Pakistanis is that there will be nothing to lose at that point. And if it comes to that I will be part of that fight as I am part of this upcoming fight now. It is not what I had in mind as a future. I want to engage in friendship with my neighbours. I would like to meet a pretty girl and spend several weeks at least in writing bad poetry. To be very honest, I`d much rather discuss the awfulness of Indian movies over chai with Indians instead of preparing for nuclear war. I`d rather needle the Indians on their lack of good songwriters. I would much rather deal with Indians on how best to improve the lot of both Indians and Pakistanis. But I don`t like this arrogant bullying that the BJP and India is engaged in and it just gets my pathan blood up. I saw only one or two sane posts from Indians here on Chowk - Harpreet was one. And Dilip D`Souza seems like one remarkakably sane and good person. But given the extent of misinformation the Indians seem to believe in, I don`t see any hope of real dialogue anytime soon. And it is fast becoming too late. To be fair, I am not blind to the faults on the Pakistani side. The killings of civilians that Pakistani-backed groups engaged in cannot be excused or condoned or tolerated. We don`t know how effective Musharraf`s war on extremism is going to be. It is easy to demand instant results from him, but his opponents are dangerous and in positions where they can cause immense harm. And his supporters have yet to make themselves into a visible force - most are still on the sidelines. Musharraf`s only mistake was the unneccessary referendum and the way it was conducted. Given some freedom to make his moves, Pakistan would be moving toward the October elections and implementation of a workable governing body of a real prime minister

(with CE powers) and an NSC to ensure no one acts unilaterally. Musharraf and his team have the right ideas for the welfare of Pakistan in mind. A Pakistan that is on the mend and improving can only have benefits for India and the entire region - economic benefits have a way of paving the way for saner dialogue and negotiated settlements.

Can the Indians see this?

P.S. I may not be able to respond by the time this gets posted on Chowk - I rejoined a while ago and I`m going to be on the frontline - but I will write again on my return.

re:Reply #: 340

Akash,

I think the time for diplomacy and a political solution is over. The attack on the Army personnel in Jammu killing innocent children and women was the last straw. Read Jim Hoagland`s report that i have pasted in this forum, castigating Mushy for his complicity. The supreme whore actually allowed terrorist camps to resurface in POK while he contiuned to be the blue eyed boy of the west. The mindset has not changed. The power structure is still the same. So what will diplomacy achieve. Mushy may say some soothing words but will continue to act as before. War is necessary to break the back of Paki Army and the ISI which are autonomous and not answerable to the public. If Paki people are stupid enough not to realise where the military and ISI are leading their country to, we need to intervene. This war is no doubt going to be costly. It is better to face the demon now than to let it grow out of proportion and come back to haunt us later.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 349

Romair,

Praful Bidwai is a communist. That his opinion also is published and heard is a testimony to the vibrancy of indian democracy. N.Ram of The Hindu and Praful Bidwai belong to the same category. Both are left-leaning. There is nothing wrong in that. The last i heard, India was still a free country, not under any tinpot dictator.

Sridhar

re: To lead or not to lead, that is the question.

Mushy is said to have voiced his desire to quit and let political process take over decision making. Too late, i am afraid. The following is Url of Jim Hoagland`s article from The Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60415-2002May22.html.

Some excerpts:

1. After internal debate, the U.S. intelligence community now accepts that Musharraf allowed the 50 to 60 guerrilla camps in Kashmir that harbor some 3,000 fighters to come back to life in mid-March after two months of quiescence. Two other Musharraf promises -- to prevent cross-border terrorism from Pakistan or Pakistani-controlled territory, and to dismantle permanently Pakistan`s Islamic fundamentalist organizations that preach violence -- have also withered as American attention has been focused on the Middle East.

``The debate about what is going on has been settled,`` says one U.S. official involved in the contentious discussions here about Musharraf`s abandoned pledge to cut off help and training that this intelligence services and military give to terrorists in Kashmir and India. ``The rate of infiltration into Indian-occupied Kashmir is above the rate of a year ago. What is still being debated is Musharraf`s intention. Is he unable or unwilling to prevent what is happening? And what do we do about either case?``.

2. The attack on an Indian military family housing area by three guerrillas identified in the Indian media as Pakistani citizens could hardly have been more inflammatory. Wives and children of Indian soldiers were butchered. A 2-month-old baby was machine-gunned to death. By coincidence or design, the attackers went to the very limit of the Indian military`s tolerance.

3. Pakistan helped create and foster al Qaeda and the Taliban. It has long used terror as an instrument of state policy to try to break India`s hold on two-thirds of Kashmir that New Delhi controls. Confronted with anything less than unrelenting pressure, Musharraf will keep on gambling, up to the brink and -- in a matter of days from now -- perhaps beyond.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 350

soysauce,

War is always the last resort. Read Jim Hoagland`s article in Washington Post and know that Mushy is a double crosser and is responsible for taking the country to war. India has crossed all thresholds of patience.

Yes, i have relatives in Delhi, Jaipur, Madras and Bombay. War is necessary for India`s survival. Unless Pak changes its track completely and renounces support to terrorists, i am afraid war will come.

Sridhar