Of Violent Birth and Peaceful Death

CATCHING AL QUAIDA,

It is now established that pakistan have moved troops from afghan border to kashmir. According to the US commander in the region, it is a real blessing. It is widely believed that the escape of the al quaida leaders were supported by, you know who, and the coalition forces wanted the remival of pak troops. There is a nod for the indian action, and hope it will be in line with the declaration of the widely popular and elected leader Zulfi of 1000 year war.

GANDHI MEETS ATATURK,

In turkey, the allegedly progressive moderate `islamic` state, according to ylh and mushy, more than hundred people have died due to hunger strike. The great islamic country does not care to save these people. A turkish cultural minister has stated that in islam fasting is a relegious task, to be performed only during ramadan, nad fastinf at any other time is blasphemy and that is why turkish authorities have let the people die.

No wonder, the veceral hatred of ylh and other pakistanis to gandhi has a pretty good religious basis.

Oh dear. This is getting more open now. The world is openly talking of pakistan being a sponsor of terrorism. And the terrorism is an instrument of state policy. Think Musharuff`s days are numbered. He is history. My pakistani bros and sisters, it is time to think of a new leader. The military and Mush are history.

This from the Guardian snf there another article in the same which is has more blunt stuff.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,722040,00.html

Headline: Dangerous game of state-sponsored terror that threatens nuclear conflict

Pakistani leader`s attempt to rein in militants is met with defiance

Rory McCarthy in Islamabad

Saturday May 25, 2002

The Guardian

Around the table at army headquarters in Rawalpindi sat the leading officers in Pakistan`s armed forces, summoned to the most important meeting of their careers.

Hours after the September 11 attacks Washington had ordered Islamabad to halt unconditionally its long-criticised support for the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. Within days General Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan`s straight-talking military dictator, called together his 12 or 13 most senior officers. Although he expects his generals to speak freely at these meetings they rarely oppose the army chief`s decisions.

This time the atmosphere was cold. Gen Musharraf laid out his proposal to support America in the imminent war against the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. There was, he told them, simply no other choice. Officially the public was told the officers supported Gen Musharraf unanimously. But now it has emerged that four of his most senior generals opposed him outright. The Guardian has learned that the four openly challenged the president`s pro-US stance. In military terms it was a stunning display of disloyalty.

According to a source close to the military leadership the most angry among the four that night was Lieutenant General Mehmood Ahmed, the religious hardliner who headed the Inter-Services Intelligence agency (ISI) - responsible for internal security and covert operations - and was once Gen Musharraf`s closest ally.

Three other lieutenant generals joined his protest: Muzaffar Usmani, a corps commander who was instrumental in orchestrating the coup of October 1999 that brought the army back to power; Jamshaid Gulzar Kiani, commander of the powerful Rawalpindi corps; and Mohammad Aziz Khan, the Kashmir-born Lahore corps commander and a former ISI deputy chief.

Within a month the dissenters were silenced. Gen Ahmed and Gen Usmani were sacked. Gen Kiani lost his corps to become Adjutant-General while Gen Khan was promoted to the theoretically powerful, but largely ceremonial, position of chairman of the joint chiefs of staff committee.

It was exactly what Washington wanted - firm leadership against the militant wing of the army. Four months ago Gen Musharraf went further - he made his second major policy change, vowing to rid his country of Islamic extremists who for years have relied on clandestine financial and military support from the army. Militants listened to the general scoff at their ``half-baked religious minds``.

Crackdown

His words shook Pakistan`s Islamist network to its core. Within weeks 2,000 militants were rounded up and jailed, including several prominent hardline clerics and militant leaders. Not only did this delight the Bush administration, it also served to calm tensions with India which for years had been complaining about the Pakistan state`s secret sponsorship of the extreme Islamist campaign in Kashmir.

Today, all that goodwill is fast disappearing. It is clear the general`s promises are not being kept. Most of the militants have been released without charge, among them the heads of groups listed as terrorist organisations by Britain and the US. Pakistan has allowed militants backed by its own intelligence agency to continue their war in Kashmir even though it threatens to plunge India and Pakistan into a devastating conflict.

A Guardian investigation has uncovered evidence that Pakistani militants are still openly raising funds and training young fighters to cross into Kashmir to fight the Indian army. They are closely watched by their Islamist supporters in the ISI. Despite the purges, several hundred in the core of 2,500 ISI officers remain opposed to Gen Musharraf`s alliance with America.

It is taking the newly appointed pro-western generals at the top of the intelligence agency longer than expected to root out dissenters. ``It`s hard to tell who are the renegades and that`s what they`re trying to do now,`` said the source close to the military leadership.

In the past week alone fundraisers from Lashkar-e-Taiba working in a district near Mardan, in the North-West Frontier, collected 500kg of wheat in donations for their fighters, according to a senior Lashkar official. Yet this group is listed as a terrorist organisation by Britain and the US and was banned in Gen Musharraf`s January speech when all militant fundraising was outlawed.

Every Friday lunchtime, as men gather at the mosques near Mardan for prayers, a Lashkar commander makes an impassioned speech about the fight in Kashmir and openly collects thousands of rupees in donations. ``Our fundraising hasn`t been affected at all,`` said the Lashkar official, a pharmacist who now works as one of the group`s leading fundraisers. ``We are still getting enough from local people and from the Arab world to keep us going.``

Lashkar trains thousands of raw recruits every year for the war in Kashmir. ``Last year every jihadi organisation was required to send 3,500 mojahedin across the border and that target was met,`` the official said.

At one religious seminary, or madrassah, near Mardan new recruits start with a 15-day course in religious teaching before a 21-day course in basic military skills. If they pass they move out to secret camps in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir - known here as Azad Jammu and Kashmir (free Kashmir) - where for three months they learn the tricks of guerrilla war and take classes in suicide attacks, the new weapon of the Kashmir campaign.

The Lashkar official claimed a suicide squad from the group`s newest armed wing, Al-Mansoureen, was responsible for last week`s attack on an Indian army base near Srinagar which killed 34 people, including soldiers` wives and children.

The ISI has for years helped to direct the militant war in Kashmir, and its officers, militants say, are well aware that the Islamist fighters are still in business. ``Training is under way in Azad Jammu and Kashmir and we are not under pressure from any government agency to stop,`` the Lashkar fundraiser said. ``When this training is going on do you think these agencies are not aware? Of course they are.``

The Pakistan army consistently denies giving the militants anything more than moral, diplomatic and political support. The reality is quite different. The ISI`s Kashmir cell issues money and directions to militant groups.

``Every jihadi has links with ISI,`` said a military source. ``You cannot be a jihadi without having links with the ISI.`` A select few are in very close contact with ISI officers.

Sympathies

The dilemma for Gen Musharraf is that many of his army officers are still deeply sympathetic to the militants and the Kashmir cause. The Islamist sympathies of many of ISI operatives are all too apparent.

Khalid Khawaja, a retired ISI officer, retains close links with the militants fighting in Kashmir as well as leaders from the defeated Taliban regime. He regards the fight in Kashmir as a legitimate jihad.

In chilling tones he describes Gen Musharraf`s policies since September 11 as a threat. ``We have done the worst possible thing. We have been responsible for the miseries of our brothers and sisters because we didn`t believe in God but we believed in Bush and Blair.``

Gen Musharraf insists he is fully in control of the ISI and aware of everything the officers do. ``Whatever they are doing now I take total responsibility,`` he said earlier this month.

His advisers say the government has a diplomatic imperative for supporting the militant campaign in Kashmir: without the militant struggle there would be no pressure on the Indian government over Kashmir, and Pakistan would have little sway at the negotiating table.

Unless Gen Musharraf can offer the Pakistani people a diplomatic success in Kashmir, which now seems well out of his grasp, he has little choice but to keep up the guerrilla war.

But the ISI is playing a dangerous game. Gen Musharraf is left trying to balance his promise to rein in Islamic militancy with his army`s belief in the moral justice and diplomatic necessity of the Kashmir war. It is a treacherous dilemma which may yet draw India and Pakistan into an unimaginable nuclear conflict.

THIRD BETRAYAL,

In 1971 pakistanis betrayed the `biharis` who colluded with them in the masaccres. Then it was the turn of the taliban, thousands of paki fauji fought side by side with the taliban, again betryed with a simple question, if you are not on our side, you are gaianst us. The likes of romair saw the dawn of a prosperous pakistan in the wake of the fruits of betrayal. At last the indian position is coming true, pakistan is an integral part of the terror facing the world.

Pakistan has been given the ultimatum, to betry the kashmiri jihadists or face india alone. The mushy, is in trouble, he lamented last week, an elected govt should have made thses critical decisions. Yahya khan had only one chance to betry, mushy will do it twice.

There is a global intolerance of terrorism, hope vajapye will not make the same mistake as indira gandhi, this has to be a decisive war.

#: 148

scout

sadna #126,

why are desis such morons? that`s it, i`ve decided i`m marrying a civilized gora and change my future



progeny`s genes.

Scout + Ted Kezynczky =bombshell baby sets fire to his house

Scout+ Timothy McVeigh =Baby Joins Hells Angel

Scout + Albino (gora nevertheles)= Baby Albino

Scout + Joe Butafuccus = Baby adopted by Amy Fischer in Jail

Scout+Bill Maher = Baby of Unemployed Talk Show host

Scout + Pierce Brosnan = Baby IRA terrorist

If i could i would show the face of the prospective babys appearence as on Conan`s Show .....

Harpreet #112, #113 #114
A lot depends on how you look at it. The NDA had survived a threat to its existence in Parliament post-Godhara and things were `improving` in Gujarat. On May 17th, a day before the Jammu attack, the New York Times published an interview with George Fernandes which said the elections in J& Kashmir were the top priority and there would definitely be no war till after elections in September. The President`s election was due and consensus was being built with Cong and Left parties on a candidate.

On May 17th, it was Musharraf who was beseiged and losing ground due to his referendum on one side, terrorist attacks in Karachi on another and the US demanding to search for Bin Laden and Al Qaeda in Wazirstan with the tribe threatening rebellion amid apprehensions of US bombing the tribal territory. A terrorist attack in India and these issues are no longer being discussed with the same urgency. Even if India had responded with indifference, he would have redeemed himself in his jihadi allies` eyes.

Fianlly, its the Pakistanis who are unclear about why they are willing to fight a nuclear war which only Pakistan can make nuclear. They are unsure whether its because of self-determination in Kashmir, is it because of human rights in Kashmir, is it because of BJP ruling in India, is it because of Gujarat, is it self-defence, or are they willing to fight to defend the rights of jihadis to wage jiad in India, or its a mishmash of all these?

As for India, it is willing to threaten war as long as cross-border terrorism is not ended. As I said, its the way you look at it.

Pearls of wisdom from Ayaz Amir:

Rising peril, stricken leadership

By Ayaz Amir.

(Excerpts)

Musharraf should take political parties which matter, rather than Tonga Parties, into confidence and make a categorical announcement about party-based elections in October minus the constitutional amendments he has spent so much time talking about.

Leading to those elections the country needs a government of national unity with representatives from the PPP and the PML-N sitting in it.

… the moment Gen Musharraf steps aside as army chief and appoints a full-time successor, and the moment he announces his willingness to reach out to Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif, this crisis will abate and the war clouds around the Himalayas disappear.

Indeed it is fair to say we wouldn`t have faced this crisis if a political leadership had been in power.



At this juncture when only a fool would totally rule out the possibility of war, the last luxury Pakistan can afford is part-timism.

Gen Musharraf owes it to the nation to shed his uniform, install the best available general - which means no loyal Musa Khan - as army chief and himself concentrate on his presidential duties.

It needs a full-time army chief for whom military maneuvering takes precedence over political maneuvering

The next thing the General must do is to swallow his prejudices and open lines of communication with the two political leaders who still matter the most as far as popular sentiment is concerned - Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif.

Far from destroying them, the military government by its sorry record has rebuilt their standing and credibility. This is the reality on the ground and wisdom lies in accepting it.

Indeed, getting these two leaders and their parties on board is more important at this juncture than relying on hopes resting on American intercession.

As for corruption charges against the two leaders, the military government having not been an impartial referee is hardly in a position to talk of justice and fair play.

The incessant chatter of using nuclear weapons as an option of last resort is a sign of defeatism for it implies that we are bound to lose a conventional war.

Since when has this become the accepted wisdom? We have an army large enough, and hopefully strong enough, to foil any aggression. Nuclear weapons are for Armageddon. God forbid that that moment should have arrived for Pakistan.

Our military godfathers also thought siding with the US would protect our Kashmir policy. They failed to realize that Afghanistan and Kashmir were part of the same thinking and that ditching the Taliban also necessarily implied ditching the notion of jihad in Kashmir.(DAWN)

Ditching the Talibans also necessatiated ditching the the Jihadis in Kashmir -- well said Ayaz Amir.

Indo-Pak nuclear war would kill at least three million: Study

AFP

Paris, May 24

At least three million people would be killed and another 1.4 million seriously injured if even a ``limited`` nuclear war broke out between India and Pakistan, the British publication New Scientist said Friday.

The estimates, it said on its website, come from a new study made by US and Asian researchers at Princeton University, New Jersey.

The figure is based on the impact of 10 Hiroshima-force bombs detonated at a height of 600 metres over the five largest cities in India and the five biggest in Pakistan.

The targeted cities used in the scenario are Bangalore, Bombay, Calcutta, Madras and New Delhi in India, and Faisalabad, Islamabad, Karachi, Lahore and Rawalpindi in Pakistan.

Casualties on the Indian side would be 1.7 million dead and 900,000 injured, while the toll in Pakistan would be 1.2 million dead and 600,000 injured.

But this toll only comprises the immediate casualties from blast, fire and radiation. An unknown number of deaths would occur from cancer in future years.

In addition, if the bombs exploded on the ground instead of in the air, the resulting radioactive dust could kill people across hundreds of square kilometres (miles), the researchers warn.

Because the prevailing winds are from the west, India is a likelier victim of fallout than Pakistan, they add.

The 10 bombs are only a 10th of the two countries` estimated nuclear arsenal, according to the researchers, pointing to figures by the Institute for Science and International Security (ISIS) in Washington, which suggests that India has about 65 warheads and Pakistan around 40.

sadna #127 Actually, ignore my post below. I will dignify your post with a response, as follows:

You write ``Paper jihadis on chowk sitting comfortably in foreign countries or drawing rooms of Pakistan are even more deserving of contempt. Which one of you has sent your sons to jihad in Kashmir ? ``

When you write ``which one of you``, you are including me (not to mention others, better people than me on chowk) as a ``paper jehadi``. Very good. Please cutandpaste anything I have written (and I have written volumes) on chowk that even comes close to being jehadi. Since you wont be able to do that I know, I shall once again wish you a nice day. I shall not comment on your posts, since I waste enough time on chowk as it is.

sadna #127 I will not dignify your post with a response. Have a nice day.

temporal #125 Is this the panjabistan that you are inviting all your chowk buddies to join? Sounds more like a hedonistic mass orgy club to me. Though far be it for me to knock hedonism, given the mess the world is in anyway.

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2002-daily/25-05-2002/main/main7.htm

Gen Yusaf says we will carry war into enemy territory

RAWALPINDI: We do not want war but if the enemy ventures an aggression, we will respond with our full might. Let there be no mistake, said Vice Chief of the Army Staff General Muhammad Yusaf Khan.

``We will not only defend but also attack when the time comes and carry the war into the enemy territory,`` he said while addressing the troops deployed along the Line of Control on Friday. The Vice Chief of Army Staff visited the forward locations and was briefed on the operational situation and preparedness. During his address, he reiterated, ``It is a fundamental and intrinsic part of our faith to fight and die for a just cause. You are the proud inheritors of great traditions, Live up to them.``

``In the ultimate struggle you will not be alone. The whole nation stands by you. At the hour of reckoning, thousands of volunteers will swell your ranks. The courageous people of held Kashmir, who have been subjected to unprecedented tyranny and oppression, will also rise in the rear of enemy forces, compelling him to fight on all fronts,`` he said.

General Yusaf said that the enemy must not forget that Pakistan was proud to be a nuclear power and that we were determined to rise and measure up to that enhanced power and status. He told the officers: ``Like always, lead from the front. It is the quality of leadership that will ultimately carry the day.``

While going round the defences, General Yusaf lauded the operational preparedness and high morale of the troops. He also offered condolences to the families of those civilians who were killed in the recent spate of indiscriminate shelling by the Indian forces. The Vice Chief of Army Staff was accompanied by Corps Commander Lieutenant General Syed Arif Hassan.



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... it is hard to argue with the horrible hindoos and the rest of the ``civilized`` world when we have an idiotic general and his cast of clowns in khaki running the circus ...... not to speak of b-grade wannabe politicians, like the insufferable imran khan and miserable mustafa jatoi, running around looking for scraps from the langar table ...... all this silly talk about war from heeng eating hyenas like veggiepie and advanti would not have happened if we had bb or ns running the show with mushy polishing his brass and doing what he is paid to do.........but no - instead, we have him running around trying to rewrite the constitution and pretending to be attaturk ....... nobody buys it except brain-dead ex-faujis and horny school boys ............

........ and what about abdul and the halwa brigade? ... they see this as their best chance to destroy the munafiqeen so that the gabriel-bird can rise from the radioactive ashes ......

..... this is enough to drive an insane man crazy - thank god for single malt and stanley .........

sadna #126,

you`re right, pakistan has to solve it`s own problems, so does India....so why can`t both countries just let the Kashmiris decide their own fate? and why do Indians have to be so blindly supportive of their country`s Kashmir policy when it`s causing more harm than good?

why are desis such morons? that`s it, i`ve decided i`m marrying a civilized gora and change my future progeny`s genes.