Of Violent Birth and Peaceful Death

Oh yes, one more thing, when Vajpayee talks about how the troops should be ready to make sacrifices, and Indians also, he should remind those soldiers of the tehelka.com scandal in which senior BJP politicians were implicated in procuring sub-standard weaponry and equipment for the army in return for kickbacks, whisky and prostitutes, all of which would have put at risk the lives of Indian soldiers. Oh Bharatiya Janata Party, you great great Indian patriots!

Canon fodder. They care no more for the lives of our brave magnificent Jawans then they do for a cockroach they squash when they sit down on their big fat arses. Canon fodder.

And when they talk about sacrifices how about this: Vajpayee, Advani and Fernandes should each dress their youngest sons in uniform and put them on the front line of the first regiments out of the trenches and facing the first round of Pakistani bullets. That should concentrate their minds somewhat.

-h-

Syed Ahmad

Nothing fits a desi more closely than the skin of self righteousness.

..................................................
I read recently about how in the 1960’s Martin Luther King came to India to visit Nehru and pay homage to his mentor, Mahatma Gandhi. He was given a rousing reception and treated with great honour by the media. During a press conference though, he made a simple statement, that he thought that India should set an example to the world by desisting from the nuclear arms race. The entire room of journalists went silent, and looked at each other in disbelief. Finally, one of them managed to put a question back to the great American leader. “But sir, then what about Pakistan?”

We have heard a lot about Pakistan’s fears of India, but I along with almost every other Indian alive, do not trust the intentions of the right wing military junta that rules Pakistan. We are under no illusions about their intentions towards India, nor their open communalist thinking (which is mirrored by the risen hindutvaist rulers of India) after all, they have been screwing their own people mercilessly for the last thirty years. What do they care about the integrity or stability of India. My point is, I am a supporter of the Indian military and believe in the need to keep a deterrent and a strong army.

But, as Nasah said, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Here is the way I see it.

Vajpayee and BJP are rattled big time. They were eviscerated in the recent elections in every single constituency they contested, this was about a week before Godhra and the events thereafter. They contested those elections on the back of the most blatant campaign of anti-Pakistani propaganda and scaremongering that has ever been witnessed in Indian history, and they were trounced from Punjab to Orissa to Uttar Pradesh. So contrary to the patronising views of many Pakistanis, the Indian electorate is able to sift through the rhetoric and able to make value judgments on political issues rationally. It was a virtual referendum on going to war with Pakistan, and the Indian voters rejected it. They have come in for massive political pressure and internal and external criticism since Gujarat, all polls indicate their popularity has plummeted, and they are reverting to the only instinct they have. When I see Advani and Vajpayees face, I want to punch them between the eyes. (I want to punch Musharaff between the eyes too but that’s another story). These are base men without the wit and intelligence to think creatively or laterally about the security concerns and the problems within India. These are men of bankrupt morality and intellect who belong to an organisation that is little more than a hatred in search of a politic. They are revving up the engines of war again (witness Vajpayees crass, incandescent rhetoric this week about “decisive” action), all because they are on the run and have nothing left to offer India, other than the ideologically hidebound philosophy of destroying and dismembering an already weak and ridden nation called Pakistan. Advani represents the absolute pits of India, he is a lunatic, a madman who shouldn’t be in control of a shopping trolley, let alone the government of India, and they have manouevered themselves and India into a position where a group of Islamic extremists can commit another atrocity soon, and plunge the sub-continent into war (this I feel is exactly what they want. They hate Musharaff almost as much as they hate we Hindustanis, are are itching to take control).

Put it this way. I expect India, as the senior nation in South Asia, to act with restraint and foresight, not with the kind of heated rhetoric about “decisive” action and Advanis decrepit and stupid statements about bringing in retired colonels to “administer” Lahore after a defeat. These are the thoughts and ideas of people with agendas, with no true desire to see peace, with an unrealistic view of how to handle this situation, and they find worthy adversaries not only in the lashkar-e-tayeeba types who share their Samuel Huntington worldview of civilisational clash, but are in my view, morally bankrupt and incapable of dealing creatively and properly with the challenges India faces, especially in the realm of Kashmir. I just don’t trust them. I cannot bring myself to hate Pakistanis and when people from India speak in easy rhetoric about war being inevitable with a kind of rabid blood lust, it makes me really angry, especially when I read that fertile farmland is being mined in East Punjab. Another instalment in the long running charter of slaughter granted to Punjabis to kill their fellow Punjabis is being laid down.

OK, so I don’t have all the answers. Maybe I am wrong and they are right, Vajpayee and Advani are the men. But I cannot help feeling instinctively aloof and suspicious of all that is taking place.

If Pakistani readers enjoyed this post then good. Because I also believe that Pakistani military establishment (with their ever so “cunning” plans to bleed India, from Punjab to Assam to Kashmir, have totally aggravated the situation and stunted the region too. Cunning indeed) is equally at fault for the present situation but I always restrict myself to commenting about India. I leave that to the rest of you.

In short, no war. That the way it looks to me, anyway.

-h-

Samina;

Flattery will get you everywhere ;)

There is only one thing though. All Stuka would have to do to get me to defect is line up a few pints of lager and a bottle of whisky and my mouth would start watering and I would cross the border in a flash. Cant resist. In my genes and all that. So why don’t you just come and join us? We promise not to keep the music up too loud after midnight, and I will even schedule some time for literary discussion as we cook the chicken and baakra in the evenings.

Oh yeah, one last thing. No matter what you say or think, Zafar is a PUNJABI!! . A Kutchi Punjabi, but still a Punjabi. Really sorry, but he’s one of us.

Make your choice.

-h-

samina?

``Free yoga classes and physical therapy massages before and after work! Weekly mushairas and qawwalis! Dancing three times a week from classical to Bollywood! Lectures and Debates on Philo/Ethical/Political/Social Issues! Universal Voting/ Healthcare/Housing/Education/Maternity-Paternity Leave! Everyone Farms AND participates in experimental art works!``

behen, khaana?

Syed Ahmed #101
Do you mean a real plebiscite or a rigged one?
Face Jihad or hold a vote say Pakistanis to Indians while stuffing ballot boxes and talking of how democracy is not for them, but an imposed western concept. Irony of ironies, the Pakistani peacekeeping contingent overseeing ELECTIONS in a civil-war ridden country SIERRA LEONE is being called back to fight a war for its military dictator.

Re raping and pillaging of Afghanistan, among other things, the Pakistani Army backed Prime Minister Gulbuddin Hekmatyar with supplies to bomb his own capital city for two years and kill thousands of civilians. The Pakistanis gave up on him only because he wasnot winning and the Taliban came along, not because he was bombing his own capital with the ammunition they supplied and killing people. Now he has been allowed back into Pakistan and has already engineered assassinations in Kabul. The Pakistani Army/ISI`s role in the continuous civil war in its client state until Sept 11 is now out there for the whole world to see.

Face it, Kashmir/India are not Afghanistan or Bangladesh and the self-determination credentials of the Pakistani Army are mud. Even nukes cannot restore them.

Its irrational policy for a country and its army to fight a war simply to defend the right of nonstate armed jihadis to fight jihad without restraint. Today you are facing India, and tomorrow you will be facing the West(the defeat of which is the jihadis main aim).

NURA KUSHTI

I think it is time that Pakistanis should thank Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan for what he has done for us. Personally, I would kiss the feet of the janitors who haul garbage out of Kahuta Research Labs. Hadn`t we had nuclear capability, the Hindu religious nuts would have eaten us alive.

The current posturing of Indian religious nuts who are in power is at the full nodd and wink of the Big Satan. This was a natural consequence of the botched referendum operation. Musharaf and ruling army janta has lost its ground in Paksitan and roots in people (if there were any) because they acted on the advise of their masters and carried out the referendum. Now US has gained incredible leverage over Paksitan Army and ruling junta and they can access any part of Paksitan on their terms-which really is happening. Besides, in order to stay in Afghanistan, the Big Satan desperately needs a military despot in Paksitan-this doesn`t necessarily mean that Musharaf is not irreplaceble. THere are ten other ambitious generals who are waiting anxiously right now for a nodd and wink from the masters. They wouldn`t even blink their eyes wiping off Musharaf and his family from the misery of this world. What else you can expect from the cut throats who raped the constitition, they were supposed to protect, without blinking their eyes. However, US might not wanna do that cuz it is devil you know is better than devil you dont know kinda thing. However, a freely elected democratic government in Paksitan is an unnecessary headache when there can be a ``freely`` elected ``democratic`` govrenment headed by Musharaf, in October.

A ``limited`` scale war i.e. Nura Kushti is inevitable after which both Musharaf and Vajpayee will emerge as war heroes and the saviors of the nations. Both desperately need it. Hindus religious nuts in power might have the agenda of their own, and chracters like Advani etc. might not want to play by the rules set forth by the Big Satan. Personally, I think Advani is on crash course with Vajpayee. He is already envisioning himself as the next prime minister; therefore he might wanna pull vajpayees leg during this kushti. The underlying assumption that Advani and company may act upon might be that US already has control over our nuclear facilities aka. strategic burdens, I mean, assets.

Re: sadna Re#101

| Nope, on the subcontinent (including
| Afghanistan) that prerogative has been solely |
| the Pakistani Army`s, thanks noone wants that
| prerogative.

I think that is an invention of yours .. | Actually it was Dostum`s hordes that raped upto 50,000 women in Kabul - right after the Russian withdrawl _ Dostum was incidentally strongly supported by India - Unfortunately that is what bought about the rise of the fanatical Taliban - The Taliban were crude and repressive - and supported terrorists like Al Qaeida.....- but there was no widespreading looting rape or murder during their tenure.

The Pak Army`s atrocities in Bangladesh are well documented and nobody denies those... but you are in complete Denial of the Indian armies brutal occupation in kashmir - I suggest your read Amnesty International`s report on Kashmir - unless all of that is Weswtern propaganda. Moreover reprisals against women ( like gang rapes by Indian army jawans) are quite well documented........

| Its curious that the raping and pillaging holy | warriors operating out of large facilities in
| Karachi and Lahore havenot been challenged
| similarly by freedom-sloganeering Pakistanis |
| to `disobey or find out`. Perhaps Pakistanis |
| are more scared of them than of Indians, permit | me to utter a polite haha.

if there are so many raping and pillaging w
holy warriors then the Kashmiris would overwhelminly vote for India in the plebscite..... And that would settle everything once and for all in a peaceable manner. lets have the plebscite and let them decide.....


Incidentally recent events have proven that in INdia Fascists were elected to power ( ie Fascism and etnic cleansing is condoned by the vast majority of its voters) and the majority of Indians want war - and they actually believe they can win a Nuclear war. - except for the few civilized secular liberals..... In time the saffron brigrades will attack other cities to rape women, dismember children with government complicity if not actual connnivance. When Mr Advani himself was a former assasin...and both Mr vajpayee and Mr Advani have used racist rhetoric.....

Pakistanis might have a lot of things wrong - but they are not delulsional about Indian intentions... India is becoming a fascist country much like the Third Reich and in time events will prove that - This is not Nehru`s India or gandhi`s India - This is an India that wants to dominate not negotiate - This is the land of VHP, VSS, RSS, Bajrang Dal , and its cohorts and suprisingly they exist because the vast majority of Indians support them and elected them to power. That is the sad irony

Consequently the nuclear option - Pakistan has no choice but top use it in case of WAR.

Sherdil is gone to war so this is second part. I left this part. Post from sherdil:

``For all the fears of nuclear war (including my own) I think the war is going to remain a conventional one. I say that because I think the BJP is testing Pakistan. They may believe the presence of the Americans will keep Pakistan from using the nuclear weapons. They will not go so far as to try and destabilize Pakistan by an extended military attack, and because of that I think they are of the opinion Pakistan will have no reason to resort to nuclear weapons. It all hinges on the extent of the war India is planning to wage. Pakistan will have to fight a conventional war because I think India will keep it so by limiting their level of engagement. If fighting has to occur, then I hope this is the case, because a short and sharp engagement is more suited to Pakistani forces. We can respond and adapt better to a rapidly developing war front for a short duration - which brings up the paradoxical situation: The strategy that I think India will try is the very one that India may be forced to abandon for a broader war - which may in turn bring on the nuclear scenario because Pakistan cannot take on a broader war indefinitely.``

actually it is suddenly very simple, as I watch the tanks and trucks move . . .

a) The Muslims are the latest bad guys (economy & turbans). Before that the Ah-Rabs (oil). Before that the Japanese (Sony & Toyota). Before that it was the Axis Forces, with Vietnamese in between. (Coca Cola). Whenever there was spare time it was the Russians. But at the end of the day they couldn`t shake even good old thumb-to-nose Castro.

b) Education indices for Cuban school students are about three times as good as those for USA school students, as per a UNESCO report quoted in the Economist.

c) Education indices for the sub-Continent weren`t doing too badly either, especially for Hindu female students. Same report.

d) Therefore, make the Muslims fight the Hindus, on their soil. The Cubans, oh Jimmy Carter will sing a country song, sell peanuts for peanuts, and Camp Guantanwhatsever rules better than Jay Leno.

What s/u/c/k/e/r/s we are.

I got to go lose some weight.

whatever.

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Syed Ahmed #100
``coz nobody will allow the marauding Indian armies to rape and pillage their country.``

Nope, on the subcontinent (including Afghanistan) that prerogative has been solely the Pakistani Army`s, thanks noone wants that prerogative.

Its curious that the raping and pillaging holy warriors operating out of large facilities in Karachi and Lahore havenot been challenged similarly by freedom-sloganeering Pakistanis to `disobey or find out`. Perhaps Pakistanis are more scared of them than of Indians, permit me to utter a polite haha.

CoolAL writes # 74

| Pakistan as it is currently constituted has
| evelved into a monster that needs to be |destroyed. This has to be done first and |foremost for the sake of the ordinary people of | Pakistan. It should have rightfully been their | war. They need to take care of business. But |like Iraq, it seems that they are not able to do | that. Therefore somebody else has to step in |
| and do the job.


Like the saffron brigades in Gujrat that gang raped women and bayoneted and sluaghtered kids

or the 33000 casulaties of a brutal ocuupation and the right of self determination of the kashmiris......

Or does the job include the burning of Sikhs in Delhi for Mother India.....


Like I said before War has no Winners only loosers..... The Vast Indogangetic plain being a nuclear wasteland is a good image to keep in mind - There is a good lesson to be learned... guns in the hands of baboons ( in this case nuclear weapons ) will result in utter annhilation. And will prove all Nutcases wrong...
That is the only reason while the Indian armies have resisted attacking - but if popular stupidity prevails -- let there be war....

The subcontinent has hundreds of problems - perhaps Mr Advani and his goons have Nuclear Annihalation as a solution. The chauvinistic nutcases need to understand - sooner or later you will destroy yourself. coz nobody will allow the marauding Indian armies to rape and pillage their country....... Mutual annihilation seems like the better option.........


If the Indians want a peaceful resolution - let there be free and fair plebiscite and let them decide. ( the kashmiris) or perhaps the free and democratic INdia does not believe in the right of self determination.

If this wisdom should you doubt - disobey and find out.......

sherdil #87
``We don`t know how effective Musharraf`s war on extremism is going to be. It is easy to demand instant results from him, but his opponents are dangerous and in positions where they can cause immense harm.`` ``Can the Indians see this?``

Micheal Krepon has just returned from visiting with the Hurriyat in Srinagar and says:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Articleshow.asp?art_id=10791287
“...It is no longer convincing to the international community that Pakistan cannot control the infiltration,” says Micheal Krepon of Stimson Center, a think-tank that hosted Lone in Washington some weeks back. “There is a (terrorist) infrastructure in PoK. These facilities are visible. The disassembling of these facilities will also be visible.” ..``


Not only Indians but everyone else has been hearing the threats from the UJC including towards those Kashmiris who speak of elections or dialogue.

Everyone can see and hear except Musharraf supporters. Indians have already been getting killed for giving him the benefit of doubt, Musharraf supporters are only now gearing up to die.

Reply #: 59 Ras Siddiqui, re your URL.

[The question is does America care for the Kashmiri David who, armed with a Pakistani slingshot, battles the Indian Goliath ?]

America appears to have given the wink to Indians to slay the Kashmiri David once and for all, towards the objective of eliminating the Jihadis who are now supposedly harboring Al-Qaida/Taliban inside Pakistan, to show something at all to justify their war against terrorism as it gave the wink to Israel in its (mis)adventure into West Bank.

Few complications in this approach though. India is no Goliath, in fact its just a pawn under the leadership of dwarfs looking to restore electoral advantages lost after Gujrat. Pakistan on the other hand is no West Bank where you can roll up tanks to the office door of the Boss. This thing will be a serious war with dynamics of its own. I think it will inevitably escalate to unthinkable dimensions.

I hope sanity prevails all around.

Rgds

Let us spare ``desis`` the blame for the impending war situation. No one voted for the war, no one voted for the mess in kashmir. Blame the leadership in both countries for failing to resolve their territorial disputes, which is basically all that the kashmir dispute is, despite the moral and legalistic arguments given by both sides. And pray like hell that the millions of deaths that some expats from both sides on chowk think would be ok (as long as their own hides do not burn) are avoided.

saminashah #62 you obviously (and wisely) skip ali1`s half-assed posts. If you read them, you would know that he is a mohajir, not a panjabi. In fact, he hates pakistani panjabis. His hatred for pakistani panjabis is matched only by his hatred for indian sikhs and hindus, as you would also know if you read his posts. Just as his pretensions of pakistani nationalism are matched by his toilet-tainted language that he uses to ridicule hinduism, panjabis, and so forth from the safety of anonymity.

Not that such knowledge of ali1`s ethnicity and individual characteristics are necessary for you to get your PhD.