Lighting The Nuclear Fire

In what could be a major step to ease tensions between the nuclear-armed neighbors, Vajpayee told reporters on Wednesday that India and Pakistan should work together to patrol the Kashmir border and verify Islamic militants were no longer crossing into Indian-controlled Kashmir to launch attacks.

``Joint patrolling can be held by India and Pakistan,`` Vajpayee said in a news conference in Altmaty, Kazakhstan, where he is attended an international summit on regional security.`

``There can be joint verification, but there is no need for third-party verification.``

(quote: CNN at 0248/EDT)

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I sincerely hope the Pakistani leadership will take this option up. There should be no logistical problems or differences, many of the regiments are still ``related`` and command structures, fonts/colours used for markings/signage as well as many unfiroms are the same. Many Indian and Pakistani Armed Forces officers and ranks have worked together as UN Forces.

Sunrise??

Does anybody have any idea why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen for the A-bombings by the Americans?

I would have imagined they`d choose the economic and political hub of the country if they intended to destroy it.

If India ever nukes Pakistan, I`m pretty sure Isloo/Pindi and Karachi would be the first targets. Though they are so close to Delhi and Bombay that they would probably be practice for the retaliatory attacks on these two metros by Pakistan.

Scary thought naa? Cities we live in and love, torn to shreds over a piece of land that allegedly runs in our blood or is an inseparable appendage, depending on which side of the LoC you reside. A lousy state that does fukk-all for the economy, populated by a mediocre people who are only capable of sewing carpets and rowing boathouses, that can`t make up its mind whether it wants to be independent or merged with either of the vultures circling it, where there is no smeblance of law and order, or of economic progress, where elections are a sham, political parties a joke and popular leadership non-existent. This Crap-mir is not worth giving up beloved Bombay for, or Delhi or Karachi for that matter (Rehan and anNy`s narrations have made me love that place, though probably never destined to see it.)

It`s time Indians and Pakistanis realised that Kashmir is just not worth fighting over. Mushy is a bastud but he got one thing dead right: Kashmir IS the core issue. Not only that, it`s a rotten-to-the-core issue.

Any views?

Sadna: Yo, school is heating up and Im not rilly feeling discussing the same thing over and over... However, we must tango again it was fun.

PS: What do u call a nice looking NDN gurl?

A Paki! Itz a joke, please stop pounding the screen...

Zafar: Whadya call a nice looking white gurl?

Mixed.

And to balance sh1t out, what do u call a nice looking paki?

A good mufukkin imagination (or 1 empty bag of weed).

RE: Reply #: 360 Romair

``- A BJP organized massacre of Muslims in Ahmadabad, in which, excited Hindu youth hunted down Muslims with great pleasure. I have never, in my whole life, seen anything like this. Nor have I ever seen a movie in which something like this has been shown. Innocent human beings being chased and hunted by other human beings, like animals. According to independent British and French reports, over 2000 Muslims were massacred.``

Romair,

It will be easier to ask Pakistani Army regulars who still hold the record for such acts: 1.5 million (conservative) killed in 9 months flat. That is 1500000 (count the zeros). And the chief perpetrator passed away peacefully in his sleep a few months ago! Or about your country`s recent escapades in Afghanistan where they laid waste an entire country for ``strategic depth``. We have to use the logarithmic scale to compare these kinds of horrors to what happened in Gujarat. You will then agree that the Gujarat vandals were choir boys in comparision.

Re: pmishra2

``...There will be some accountability for Gujarat...``

Police in the western Indian state of Gujarat charged 48 people over communal violence in which about 120 people were killed (BBC)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_2025000/2025527.stm

Reply Drumz # 343

Drumz

“Zafar: Its not because ur NDN, its cuz uve been brainwashed by the whiteman (happy?).”

Of course I’m happy. I HAVE been brainwashed after all…

As for the rest (meaning of life, love, etc.), you may well be 100% right about you, but you may not be 100% right about everybody. And differences in how we understand personal meaning should be ok.

Mir (I don’t know if they actually say this, but let’s do a series)

Zafar

PS Still fried I hope (hop?)

geez...DRUMZ and Sadna..chill out yaars. do we need a mediator here? anNy`s having way too much fun, and I`m totally stressed about papers and armies lined up to attack, so i can`t oblige either. but come on..man, is this one of those Mills & Boon scenarios (i can see both you and sadna wretching in disgust!!!), or will we have to set up a boxing ring or a circle for kabaddi? i`m all for peace and pacifism myself, so.....take a long drag from the peace pipe and chillllll....:)

DRUMZ #364 #363
I posted my comments back in #60, why didn`t you raise these questions then instead of launching a nautanki? Now that you can`t prove I am biased, so you ask me to do it for you so you can jump up and down some more.

Why the heck should I have to `prove` anything to you? If you disagree with what I post, its up to you to give a valid reason for doing so and how bad you say I am doesnot count.

As for info, check out the MSNBC article posted in my post #328. Its difficult to tell how accurate it is, but it is quite detailed and was also mentioned in an editorial in the Daily Times of Pakistan dated yesterday/today.

Sadna: ``As for any info, if you hadn`t been deliriously offtopic you wouldnot have missed it, whatever it was.``

So u dont know what it was either? Cool.

Lemme ask the fam.

Chowk: Over the last few pages, did anyone stumble across anything which can be refered to as ``informative`` written by the person ``sadna.``

Your help will be most appreciated.

Sadna: Appealing to logic NOW was an awful idea. Fire ya advisors.

Please use logic to demonstrate how the ``pakistani Military is eternally focused on killing hindus.``

``Another was that the Pakistani elite (ruling class) has expected that the Indians and its own poor will consent to continue dying for its policies without cost to itself.``

Please explain how u know what the pakistani elite ``expects`` using logic.

``The Pakistan `ruling class``s objections to war as price accompanied by nuclear threats/appeals for nuclear pacifism are not based on a genuine desire for peace.``

Please explain how one can logically quantify what is a ``geniune`` desire for peace.

``but based on pure self-preservation of itself and its policies.``

If u knew anything at all about ALL elite classes, you would not have said that.

PS: Have u ever been to Pakistan?

Rsaxena: It arite, your gyal sounds like she should be on the cover of a Corn Flakes box (red spikes?).

Plus, Ive already been practising the lines: ``U wanna get stoned like an israeli soldier who fell outta his tank``? ``Is that an uprising in your shirt are are u just happy to see me?``

I know, it needs some work... This is more Tahmeds department.

Romair #360

Welcome back! BTW, what happened to your friend Baker, the nazi with the deep opinions about Kashmir? I guess after we exposed that little factoid you lay low for a few days. Good move.

Yes, Gujarat is an abomination and a terrible wound on the indian state. It would be nice if you acknowledged the murder of the Godhra hindu pilgrims, as part of the Gujarat killings. But of course, as religous hindus I assume they far from being human in your eyes and hence their deaths need not be grieved.

It is also regrettably not the first time an ethnic minority has been targetted in India. The killing and ethic cleansing of kashmiri pandits in Kashmir (paid for by yours truly and other Pakistani taxpayers) and Sikhs in New Delhi are other terrible tragedies with a similar sub-text. Of course, these are also not muslims and not deserving of regret or mention.

Unlike you, the indian people and the indian state are somewhat less sectarian. There will be some accountability for Gujarat, though not enough and far too late. The BJP will find, as Indira Gandhi did before them, that hate and extremism does not pay electorally.

Assuming that this conflict ends peacefully, there will be one silver lining:

Indians will finally understand and stop asking why Pakistanis wanted a separate state for themselves. If it wasn`t clear to them earlier, it should be clear to them, by now. Whether India or Pakistan is correct on Kashmir is a separate debate. Lets assume that India is correct. But something even more eeire is in the South Asian air. During the past five months or so, we have seen:

- A BJP organized massacre of Muslims in Ahmadabad, in which, excited Hindu youth hunted down Muslims with great pleasure. I have never, in my whole life, seen anything like this. Nor have I ever seen a movie in which something like this has been shown. Innocent human beings being chased and hunted by other human beings, like animals. According to independent British and French reports, over 2000 Muslims were massacred.

The Muslims who were killed were of all types, covering the spectrum from the Ursturlys of the world to the hamidms to the SameerJBs. Rich Muslims, poor Muslims, secular Muslims and non-secular Muslims, Muslims who love India and Muslims who dislike India. As long as you were a Muslim, you were fair game to be burned, slaughtered, or electrocuted.

- The biggest issue was not the massacre itself, but the fact that the whole Gujrat administration and the BJP party co-operated in this massacre.

- The BJP actually considered calling an election in Gujrat, since it felt its popularity had gone up after the massacre.

- Vajpayee going to Goa, and making a statement that all Muslims cause violence. This is a racist statement to begin with. But considering the fact that around 15% of his own countrymen are Muslims, doesn`t that sound odd?

- Despite all the window-dressing and superficial debate on the above issue, I believe, none, or only one of the parties in the NDA decided to leave the alliance. All the other (are there around 25?) didn`t consider this issue important enough to leave the alliance. I assume they correctly think that their voters will not consider this issue important either.

So organizing a massacre of Muslims in broad daylight is not enough of a problem to break an alliance. Now if over 2000 cows had been massacred, that may have been a different story.

- India has piled up its whole military on the Pakistani border threatening decisive nuclear wars. Who actually wins in such wars? Could anyone from India enlighten us?

Apparently no third party can mediate, but it is alright to quote third party sources if they support India`s point of view. There is no need to provide any proof for any crime. There is no need for the UN either.

Just threaten to destroy Pakistan, unless it does exactly as India wants.

- Advani, the enlightened leading light of India, states that he wants to break up Pakistan again.

- India has threatened to stop Pakistan`s water. Thereby starving the country to death. This isn`t the first time, this threat has been made.

- Everytime Pakistan`s economy is about to turn the corner, India carries out actions that stunt the turn around.

So on and so forth.

So after all of this, we can continue arguing whether India is right on Kashmir or wrong. But, hopefully one thing will be clear to Indians: that Pakistanis stance on why they did not trust a joint India in the 40s and why they do not trust India today is quite legitimate. All it took for the BJP to get the Gujrat incidences out of the Indian minds was to threaten Pakistan. Now all Indians seem to have conveniently forgotten about Ahmadabad. Attacking Pakistan is much more important.

It should be clear to the Pakistanis that if the Hinduvta brigade has its way, its not going to differentiate between Pakistanis who hate India and Pakistanis who think we should join back with India, due to our common Punjabi culture. Its dream is to have every Muslim South Asian running around with a sword carrying Hindu chasing after him or her, as was the case in Ahmadadab. I would encourage all Pakistanis to look into the eyes of the Hindu boys who were chasing after the Muslims. It was the excitement of a hunter chasing his prey.

I doubt the Kashmir issue will be solved after this conflict, but hopefully after all of this, we will finally rid ourselves of any comments, from both the Pakistan and specially the Indian side, on why the creation of Pakistan was necessary.

The Hindu: ``India today reiterated that it was willing to take ``appropriate steps`` in case the Pakistani President, Pervez Musharraf, implemented some of the promises he had made to the United States and the United Kingdom on countering terrorism. ``

Combining this with other news sources (see posts below) I connect the dots and see the outlines of a solution: Mushy cracks down on mullahs, India discusses Kashmir, both nations spare themselves a nuclear holocaust. (But then I am an optimist, so maybe I am reading too much in the tea leaves).

Economist: ``...General Musharraf is ...said to be dismantling camps for terrorists in Pakistan-administered Kashmir. In return, he expects Mr Vajpayee to open talks on Kashmir...India, though angry and disbelieving, does seem to accept this deal in principle. But a gap remains between what India demands and what General Musharraf says he will do. India wants the machinery of terrorism shut down for good, not merely put in storage. General Musharraf is unlikely to comply in full.

...even if the next big attack is not the doing of Pakistan’s government, India may feel that its credibility depends on punishing, rather than merely admonishing, Pakistan``

So it has come down to this: India and Pakistan may reduce their cities to smoldering ruins because of a bunch of half-brained mullahs playing off one aggressive government against the other.

From Time magazine: Why India and Pakistan Aren`t Backing Away From the Brink.

Quick Answer: Despite the nuclear danger, neither side sees much gain in standing down

Quick Comment from tahmed: The situation is dangerous. Very dangerous.

Excerpts: ...both sides appear to believe they can fight a limited war without going nuclear, and that both sides fear the consequences of backing off right now. Mediation is further complicated by the limited leverage available to Washington to restrain both sides...Severing the link between Pakistan`s security forces and the Taliban-al Qaeda alliance was a gamble Musharraf was willing to make...but Kashmir is a different matter... (it is) a central pillar of the military`s claim to political power...

New Delhi ...can`t afford to escalate to a nuclear confrontation, and yet it ...can no longer refrain from responding to attacks from Pakistani-controlled territory. ...It`s a relative certainty that any Western efforts to defuse the crisis will be matched by extremist attempts to exacerbate it by launching new terror strikes against India in the coming weeks

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,256961,00.html