Lighting The Nuclear Fire

Hoodbhoy was on Nightline yesterday. Gave pretty good comments.

a must read from www.antiwar.com

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

temporal, apologies for being quicker! hey maybe we can work on a master plan for the governments of india and pakistan to implement Operation Geisha???

this is fun

contd
As for any info, if you hadn`t been deliriously offtopic you wouldnot have missed it, whatever it was.

DRUMZ #347
Not to interrupt you or anything, but its no use to present the premise(I am biased) as proof(my information/theses are biased) or vice versa, thats called circular logic.

``How Pakistani`s are half reptiles?``
This is an argument by induction, implying if statement A by D is outrageously wrong, statement B by C must be wrong too and C is a bad person. Dasnnt work either.

``So what info am I missing? How the Pakistani military is eternally focused on killing all hindus or that the pakistani elite doesnt care about the poor? ``

No those are called theses and I subscribe to the first. Another was that the Pakistani elite (ruling class) has expected that the Indians and its own poor will consent to continue dying for its policies without cost to itself. The Pakistan `ruling class``s objections to war as price accompanied by nuclear threats/appeals for nuclear pacifism are not based on a genuine desire for peace (or the Agra/Lahore summits would not have failed so miserably) but based on pure self-preservation of itself and its policies.

shakir/temporal: What are these cards that you carry with you? Hmmmmmmmmmm...Is this taash-kay-patay? So you can challenge any foe to a game of cards (and escalate it to nukes and missiles if it looks like you are going to lose). Or is this the Identity Card, issued by the Great Database Administrator of the Patriotic Army. Hope your picture looks better than mine on the card.

As for solutions for Kashmir, please dont solve that problem..you want to put BJP and musharaff out of a job?? You want them to starve on the streets because no one needs them anymore?? Or maybe get a job if they are lucky, given their qualifications, at a McDonalds flipping hamburgers (or veggieburgers in case of BJP). I thought you people had a heart. That you actually cared.....

shakir69 @331:

[Lease Kashmir to the Japanese for 200 years and turn it into a huge golf course and geisha bar (the second is optional)]

we card carrying indians, by rule, aren`t supposed to agree with CCPs, howsoever wonderful the idea may be ;-)

... how abt handing over ``IHK`` permenantly to the chinese ?? ... afterall, if pakistan can make ``border adjustments`` with china, why can`t we follow suit ? ....

Sadna: Your bias is the cause, ur ``information`` is the effect. Which do u think should be focused on?

So what info am I missing? How the Pakistani military is eternally focused on killing all hindus or that the pakistani elite doesnt care about the poor?

Any other ``informative`` gemz that ive over looked? How Pakistani`s are half reptiles? Pakistani`s between the ages of 17 and 18 morph into fire breathing dragons every winter equinox? How Pakistani women hide their horns and tails under their burqas? What?

Sadna, dont get so upset. You are simply reaping the hatred u sow. If u stop focusing on ``good and evil`` u may learn something from alla this.

TRICKY MUSH: CAUGHT WITH HIS PANTS DOWN

It is said that you can fool some people for all time, all people for some time, but not all people for all time.

Gen. Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan, whom the late Gen. Asif Nawaz Janjua, the Chief of the Army Staff (COAS) during the first tenure of Nawaz Sharif as the Prime Minister, used to describe as ``Tricky Mush``, had always believed that he could fool all people for all time. Not quite where terrorism is concerned, as he is finding to his embarrassment and confusion.

The whole world without exception is coming down on him like a ton of bricks to stop his sponsorship of jehadi terrorism against India. There are no longer any takers for his pleas of injured innocence and for his sermons about the difference between terrorists and freedom-fighters.

The US, the UK, France, Germany, Russia, Japan and every other country, which is concerned over the depredations of jehadi terrorists bred in the snake-pit of terrorism that is Pakistan, now know who is the godfather of the weapons of mass destruction (WMD) seeking terrorists, who is the breeder of the venomous snakes.

Tricky Mush was by appointment terrorist-breeder to the late Gen. Zia-ul-Haq. With the assistance of Gen. Mohammed Aziz Khan, now Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, and Maj. Gen.(retd) Mahmud Ali Durrani, former station chief of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) in the Pakistani Embassy in Washington DC, he bred a dreaded army of terrorists euphemistically called the Army of Islam.

There was a symbiotic relationship between Tricky Mush and Osama bin Laden. He created bin Laden and made him into the dreaded terrorist that he is today or was, if he is dead. He used him against the Soviet troops in Afghanistan and, in 1988, when a Shia revolt for an independent Karakoram State rocked Gilgit in the Northern Areas, he let loose bin Laden and his murderous tribal hordes on the Shias. More Shias were massacred in Gilgit in 1988 than in the Hazara area of Afghanistan under the Taliban post-1996.

The dubious ``exploits`` of bin Laden helped Tricky Mush, till then considered a mediocre commando, upwards in his career. But for bin Laden`s services it was doubtful if he would have ever become the COAS. Thus, Tricky Mush was the creator and the creation of bin Laden. And yet, when Larry King of the CNN asked him in his programme immediately after October 7, 2001, about his relationship with bin Laden, he replied without batting an eye lid : ``I had never known him.`` When Larry King persisted by asking him: ``You mean, you have never met him?``. ``Never``, replied the commando without a moment`s hesitation.

It required gall to deny it with such confidence because Tricky Mush would have known that his American buddies from the days of the Afghan wars of the 1980s were aware of his snake-farm, which was funded by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). In fact, he bred bin Laden and other snakes at the CIA`s instance for use against the Soviet troops.

If there is one person in Pakistan today who would know the whereabouts of bin Laden, that is Tricky Mush. Instead of taking hundreds of Al Qaeda and Taliban members to the Guantanamo Bay in Cuba and interrogating them, if only the Americans had taken Tricky Mush there and given him the works, bin Laden would have been by now a dead man, if not already dead, and the Al Qaeda on its death bed. Instead of doing that, they showered lollipops on him. And what honours for the terrorist-breeder when he visited Washington DC in February last!

What did the Americans get in return for the lollipops? A wild goose chase with a string of botched-op operations in Afghanistan with exotic names like OP Anaconda, OP Mountain Lion, OP Snipe, OP Condor etc. And a string of horrible tragedies in Pakistan-- the kidnapping of Daniel Pearl, the American journalist, and his being brutally killed by slitting his throat like the Muslims kill the sacrificial goat to propitiate God; the death of the wife of an American diplomat and her young daughter while praying to Jesus Christ in an Islamabad church and the slaughter of 11 French experts who were mistaken for Americans outside a Karachi hotel.

Not one of these cases has been detected convincingly. In the meanwhile, Pakistan, including Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir (POK) and the Northern Areas, are swarming with the terrorist dregs from Afghanistan--- Arabs of the Al Qaeda, the Pashtuns of the Taliban, the Pakistani Punjabis of the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (HUM), the Harkat-ul-Jehad-Al-Islami (HUJI), the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LET), the Jaish-e-Mohammad (LET) and the Sipah-e-Sahaba and the Chechens, the Malaysians, the Indonesians, the Arakanese, the Filippinos and the Bangladeshis of one knows not which organisation.

Tricky Mush was gratified and concerned. Gratified because more trained and bitter terrorists meant more jehadi killers available for making the Indians continue to bleed. Concerned because some of these terrorists, particularly the Arabs and the Pashtuns, insisted on continuing in Pakistani territory to settle score with the Americans. Not knowing whom to fight---the Indians in Jammu & Kashmir, the Americans in Pakistan or their own Governments back home---the Bangladeshis, the Arakanese, the Malaysians, the Filippinos and the Indonesians have taken to brigandage and Shia-slaughter in Karachi rendering an already ungouvernable city even more ungouvernable, while waiting for their passage home.

Tricky Mush suddenly finds that he is no longer believed by the outside world. His word no longer counts, even with the Americans, who are, however, not yet prepared to ditch him.

India has been shouting hoarse since 1993 that what we are facing in J&K is not Kashmiri militancy, but pure and simple Pakistani Punjabi terrorism, that it is not a Kashmiri freedom-struggle as projected by Islamabad, but an indirect war of aggression through the intermediary of the Pakistani Punjabi Army of Islam of Musharraf`s creation.

For the first time after nine years, India is heard, India is believed. The Government of India has every reason to be gratified by the turn of events and deserves to be congratulated for its skillful diplomacy. But, the credit is not due to India alone. It is also due to the dozens, if not hundreds, of the communications experts of the USA`s National Security Agency (NSA) deployed by the USA in Afghanistan and Pakistan to intercept the communications of the terrorist snakes, wherever they are found in this region---in Afghanistan, Pakistan or India. They have been telling their Government in Washington DC that India has been wronged all these years by not believing its complaints, that India is right, that the godfather of these terrorists projected as freedom-fighters is none other than a tricky guy called Gen. Pervez Musharraf. In panic, Tricky Mush is reported to have asked the ISI to withdraw all communication sets from the terrorists, whether operating against India or the US

Washington DC is stepping up the pressure on Tricky Mush, but is not yet prepared to abandon him. India should keep up the pressure of its diplomacy. Tricky Mush may still have a couple of more tricks up his sleeves to ingratiate himself back into the favour of the US.

Will there be a war over Pakistan`s sponsorship of terrorism against India? One does not know. One hopes not. India will fight only if forced to by circumstances by the unwillingness of the rest of the world to call Tricky Mush to account. But, if it fights, its soldiers will be fighting not only to make India free from terrorism, but also to make the USA, West Europe, Russia, the Central Asian Republics, China, Myanmar, Bangladesh, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines and the rest of the world free from Pakistani-bred terrorism. The roots of the terrorist cancer afflicting the world are in Pakistan.

And India`s soldiers will be fighting to ensure that there is no more September 11, 2001, neither in the USA nor anywhere else in the world. The civilised world has a moral obligation to rally to the support of India.

Say No to Nukes

Times of India



[ MONDAY, JUNE 03, 2002 11:17:16 PM ]



Pakistan`s leading nuclear physicist, Pervez Hoodbhoy, has written and spoken extensively on topics ranging from science in Islam to education issues in Pakistan. An ardent pacifist, Hoodbhoy tells Rashme Sehgal that there is a worryingly high degree of ignorance in the subcontinent about the implications of a nuclear exchange:

Pakistan’s newly appointed ambassador to the United Nations, Munir Akram, recently said that it reserves the right to use nuclear weapons if India resorts to conventional warfare. Is this indeed an option or just bluster?

Actually, Munir Akram said nothing new. Pakistan has for long said that it would not agree to a no-first-use agreement, and reserves the right to strike first. But I wish he hadn’t rattled the nuclear sabre. It doesn’t help at a time of deep crisis like this, when we need conciliatory statements from both sides, not inflammatory ones. I personally think that Pakistan will not strike until it is convinced that defeat is at hand.

However, with loose nukes all over the place, can anyone guarantee that some mobile missile unit commander — Pakistani or Indian — will not act on his own accord? Has the balance of mutual terror failed?

Obviously it hasn’t failed yet, but I find it terribly worrying that there is insufficient fear of the nuclear holocaust that could soon visit us. The efficacy of nuclear deterrence is predicated on the ability of these weapons to induce terror.

But what if people just aren’t afraid?

The bulk of people in the street simply don’t have a clue to what these doomsday weapons can do. Only a minuscule number know of nuclear fireballs, radioactivity, and long-term effects. Even for those who have heard of Hiroshima, nuclear war is an abstraction. But perhaps more importantly, the subcontinental culture is deeply fatalistic. So many people say, ‘‘what will be, will be’’.

Pakistan has given active support to militants for the last decade. Doesn’t India have the right to take retaliatory measures?

I say unequivocally — as indeed many of us here in Pakistan have been openly saying for years — that infiltration must stop. This kind of covert war can only complicate, and never solve the Kashmir issue. For too long, Pakistan has lied to the world that it does not house training camps for militants within its borders. However, do not mistake this criticism of Pakistani policy for endorsement of India’s position. The suffering in Kashmir owes much to Indian intransigence in negotiating a settlement.

Violence begets violence. Let there be a negotiated solution and let us leave the people of Kashmir to themselves. The jehadis should get out of Kashmir. So should the Indian forces. Let us cool Kashmir down for a period of five to 10 years before reaching a final settlement.

Are foreign nations really serious about resolving this present crisis between our two countries?

Having cut off all direct means of negotiation, India and Pakistan have placed the fate of their people in the hands of foreign diplomats and third-tier leaders. What a shame! On May 28, 1998 — the day Pakistan carried out its tit-for-tat nuclear tests — when I turned on the TV in Boston, the top story of the day was about a dog which had drowned in Lake Erie. That should show how concerned the West is about our fate.

You have spoken about Indian experts trying to trivialise Pakistan’s nuclear capability, especially in terms of its operational capability and usability. On what basis have you arrived at such a conclusion?

Some Indian experts have been saying that Indians can sleep in peace because if Pakistan attempts to push the button, the Americans will destroy Pakistani nukes. What a wild flight of fancy! These people presume that America is God, that it knows where all the Pakistani nukes are, and it has both the will and power to destroy them.

I met I K Gujral two months before the May 1998 nuclear tests. In response to my expression of worry about a nuclear catastrophe on the subcontinent, he repeatedly assured me that Pakistan did not have the capability of making atomic bombs. Senior Indian defence analysts like P R Chari also believed this, as did the former chairman of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission, Raja Ramanna.

Do you think the public of either country has been well served by both nations going nuclear?

The evidence is before us: relations between the two countries have become far more belligerent and hostile after 1998. We are at the brink of a war that may well be the last one. Kargil was a direct consequence of nuclearisation and of Pakistan’s new-found confidence. Note also that Indian military spending has skyrocketed since 1998. Pakistan would have liked to follow suit except that its economic constraints are much tighter. Nuclearisation has been an unmitigated disaster for our peoples, and we are yet to see what else it will lead to.

Why have peace-loving people in both countries been marginalised? Is it a failure of leadership or are there more fundamental reasons for this terrible state of affairs?

Religious fundamentalism — Islamic and Hindu — has devastated both countries. Surrender to primal loyalties is destroying our civilisation and culture, replacing tolerance and plurality with fanaticism.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=11897015

re: DRUMZ

{Rsax: I found somefin better. I was chillin with the crew when allova sudden, a bunch of palestinians walked by and went into a building... Apparently some canadian MP`s were giving a speech on the horrors of the occupation. Long story sort, Palestinian gurls are BANGIN. Ima hit up mad rallies in support of Palestinian gurls and their rite to be bangin. What could be better? U even get to make fun of the whiteman.}

...if the palestinian girls don`t work out, lemme know...i think i have that red-haired girl`s number somewhere...

Zafar: I dont care if u ask for it or not, here is my post (this sh1t has been flipin in my head for three days).

``How is a person lovable? Where you say conjecture I would say subjective, and love IS (iz?) subjective (that’s sort of the point, right?).``

Love has been trivialized to the point where its become a pointless word. Lets assume that there is a greater and lesser love. The lesser love involves the LIKING of a material object. There are two differences between this and a greater love. 1: The love is not coming both ways (unless u know something about toothbrushes that I dont) so its not mutual. 2: It does not have TRUTH in mind as an objective.

The meaning of life is to find meaning in life, to search for truth. That which doesnt have truth in mind is IDLE (Idol). Keep this in mind for the next paragraph...

We know that all things have mass and energy and are thus the product of moving atoms (the lowest common denominator-a microcosm of life). All atoms have an energy field which allow them to Vibrate (recall: ``in the beginning was the word`` -sound vibration). When an atom loses its energy, it simply gathers more by LINKING with the field of another atom. When the atom has recieved enuff energy, it moves away (it does not become dependent on the other atom) and is allowed to fullfil its destiny. This is a mutual give and take relationship. Atomic love.

A greater love gives u the energy u need to fullfil ur destiny (To find and become 1 with truth). This is shown in the male/female relationship. Like the yin/yan, the man and woman complete eachother by balancing out their attributes. Unconditional love which is soul-deep, is the LINK between the two people (they use eachother to balance out their energies. This is different from ``losing urself in another`` which doesnt allow GROWTH to take place. A person should not become dependent on his partner, and should be able to use their relationship as a learning experience if the other should die.

The Union between the male and the female allows both to see truth clearer and realize it quicker because they occaisionally work as one being, complimenting eachother from their perspectives.

When BASIC people say that their country is ``lovable`` they are simply saying they like some attributes they THINK belong to their nation. These attributes are different for each perciever and collectively reflect a lesser understanding of love. U dig?

.`` Lease Kashmir to the Japanese for 200 years and turn it into a huge golf course and geisha bar (the second is optional), and let the four parties (pakistanis, indians, the kashmiris, and ofcourse the japanese) benefit from it. Water to both countries will be garanteed, tourism will flourish, money will be made, and lives will be seriously improved for future generations.``

Shakir69 zindabad

Shakir69 for President.

Don`t know about Pakistanis, but the sane Indians will definitely vote for you.