Lighting The Nuclear Fire

An Indian summer

By Edward Luce

Published: July 1 2002 20:59 | Last Updated: July 1 2002 20:59





American diplomacy has averted the imminent threat of war between India and Pakistan. But senior members of the Bush administration know that it is only a matter of time before military tensions flare up again between the two nuclear-armed neighbours.

The prospects of renewed tension were underlined at the weekend with the appointment of L. K Advani as India`s deputy prime minister. Although Mr Advani was already seen as the successor to Atal Behari Vajpayee, the prime minister, his new title is a timely reminder of the hardline, anti-Pakistani elements that surround the ageing - and increasingly frail - prime minister.

``It might be three months, it might be nine months, but we all know that India and Pakistan will go back to the brink again,`` says a senior US official in Washington. ``Maybe next time they will go over the brink.``

Until now, the US has consistently respected India`s adamant refusal of third-party mediation on its core dispute with Pakistan over the divided state of Kashmir. But having sweated through the latest and most intense bout of nuclear brinksmanship, the US and its allies are quietly revising their long-held position.

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1025534365666&p=1012571727282

Kashmir: From earthly paradise to potential Armageddon

The Arizona Republic

http://www.arizonarepublic.com/opinions/articles/0618thomas18.html

June 18, 2002

Just before the sun dipped below the horizon, it touched the surface of Dal Lake, turning it into molten gold.

A fragrant breeze rolled off the pavilions and cascading waterfalls of the mountaintop Hanging Gardens of Kashmir and ruffled the placid surface, releasing a million shards of light and sending a ripple through the floating fields of lotus blossoms.

No wonder Mughal Emperor Jahangir had said, ``If there is paradise on Earth it is this, it is this, it is this.``

I remember the scene as if it was yesterday. I was 16 and Kashmir was a pristine paradise. Today it is an armed camp, teetering on the brink of nuclear war with roadblocks, rumbling army trucks, Indian commandos in black, suicide bombers, a dying economy and shell-shocked civilians. How did paradise turn into potential Armageddon?

Pakistan and India have fought three wars over the disputed territory of Kashmir, each holding their positions at the Line of Control.

Today a fourth war - perhaps even a nuclear war - seems to be looming large. Apart from the damage it would do to the two countries (estimates range from 12 million dead from a direct hit, to a 100 million in peripheral damage from fires, starvation and disease) it would break the international taboo of using weapons of mass destruction. Ideally these are only a deterrent, not weapons of choice.

It is estimated that India has about 25 nuclear weapons and that Pakistan has about half that many. This imbalance is inherently dangerous; military strategists predict that the losing side in a conventional war would be tempted to use nuclear weapons to reverse the advantage.

The two countries have been fighting over Kashmir since 1947, when India achieved freedom from British rule and the new state of Pakistan was formed from parts of India. The Hindu maharaja of Kashmir opted at the time to sign an instrument of accession to join the Indian Union - though the population of Kashmir was predominantly Muslim - and not Pakistan. Ever since, a relentless campaign to ``liberate`` Kashmir from India has been waged from across the Indian border.

Janak Singh, a native of Kashmir and a former bureau chief of the Times of India, says, ``Extremist organizations operating under the guidance of Pakistan`s intelligence agency, the ISI, are engaged in staging relentless acts of violence all over India. Trained militants continually cross over the Line of Control into Jammu and Kashmir.``

In winter 2000 I met with the Pakistani high commissioner to India. While waiting in his New Delhi embassy, I noticed a number of pro-Islamic, anti-Indian brochures neatly stacked on a shelf.

I asked, ``Does Pakistan support Muslim militants operating in India?`` ``No, no, that is just Indian propaganda,`` the commissioner replied. When I indicated the brochures, he said, ``Oh, they (fundamentalists) just leave those here.``

According to Singh, intelligence sources reveal that there are about 30,000 Pakistani operatives in India. It is widely known that in the past the ISI has had a cozy relationship with Muslim fundamentalists, but it now seeks to distance itself from the stigma of terrorism.

About 400,000 Hindus have been driven out of Kashmir, according to the Kashmiri Overseas Association USA. They wait for someone to restore peace to Kashmir, so they can return to their ``Paradise on Earth`` as the destitute Muslim population of Kashmir awaits the same ephemeral peace.

Mantoshe Singh Devji is a Phoenix writer whose new book is ``The Mad Messiah - Osama bin Laden, and the Seeds of Terror.`` She was born in Lahore, which is now Pakistan, and is of Indian origin. She has lived in the United States for 35 years.

re: akash

{Do some skirt chasing in Baltics and tell us the truth.}

...i`m going for the russian art and opera scene...

RSaxena

And learn some Russian boy... I mean not the whole language but some sweet nothings to tell Russian gals,in case you are going. I guess that will be in addition to your knowledge of English,Spanish and Hindi.

RSaxena

``no one goes to baltics for work man...unless you`re russian mafia...u go there for fun :)...

``

I didn`t know about mafia ;). But Russian girls are very cute. I have heard they are more caring and understanding than American women, kinda mixture of Indian values and American looks. Do some skirt chasing in Baltics and tell us the truth.

re: akash

{Baltics etc etc on a regular basis. }

...no one goes to baltics for work man...unless you`re russian mafia...u go there for fun :)...

Can Pakistan`s chief thwart Islamic radicals?

Friday`s bombing in Karachi underscores the difficulty in reining in the militants.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0617/p07s02-wosc.html

By Jawad Naeem | Special to The Christian Science Monitor

ISLAMABAD – President Pervez Musharraf is taking steps to halt two decades of Pakistani military support for Islamic militants.

But it`s clearly an uphill effort. On Friday, a car bomb exploded outside the US consulate in Karachi, the fourth attack against foreigners in Pakistan since January. The attack underscores concerns among Pakistani analysts about General Musharraf`s ability to sustain his commitment to rein in Islamic militants, not just those fighting India in Kashmir, but elsewhere in the country.



A previously unknown group, Al Qanoon (The Law) claimed responsibility for Friday`s attack, which it said was the start of a holy war against the US and its ``puppet ally.``

``It sounds a warning to the Pakistani government as well [as to the US], as we are an ally of the international coalition against terrorism,`` said Pakistan`s Brigadier Mukhtar Sheikh.

In recent weeks, Musharraf has managed to slow down the infiltration of militant groups heading into Indian Kashmir – thereby avoiding a war with its larger neighbor and nuclear rival. But yesterday, 23 people died in Kashmir – most of them civilians and Islamic militants – in separate attacks.

``Opinion is split among the [Pakistani] intelligence corps whether to wash their hands permanently of the freedom fighter outfits or to put a temporary lid on their activities to appease international opinion,`` says one Pakistani intelligence source, who asked his name not be used.

Those within the Pakistan military favoring a temporary freeze contend militants may be needed again if the international community fails to persuade India to negotiate with Pakistan and Kashmiris to reach a political solution to the long-running dispute, which remains on the agenda of the UN Security Council.

``There is, however, a definite order from the military hierarchy to put the militant groups on a tight leash not only because of external considerations but also for the sake of internal peace and stability,`` the source says.

Musharraf is attempting to reverse more than a decade of institutional and public support.

Intelligence sources estimate between 3,000 to 5,000 motivated hard-core fighters are aligned with about a dozen Islamic groups, which have thrived on donations from the public as well as support from the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI).

Many of the fighters are veterans of Afghan jihad (holy war) that ended in 1989 with the defeat of the former Soviet Union. Others were trained in camps set up by the jihadi groups inside Pakistan and in Islamabad-controlled part of Kashmir.

When military ruler Pervez Musharraf joined the US-led war on terrorism after Sept. 11 and abandoned the Afghan Taliban, India skillfully exploited the situation to bring international pressure on Pakistan.

In January, about a month after India massed troops on the borders on the heels of a terrorist attack on the parliament in New Delhi, President Musharraf banned the two main militant groups blamed by New Delhi for the assault.

Lashkar-I-Tayyaba (Army of the Pure) and Jaish-e-Mohammad (Army of Prophet Mohammad) were outlawed along with three other groups.

The Lashkar was founded by Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, a professor of Islamic studies at Pakistan`s prestigious University of Engineering and Technology in Lahore. He fought against the Soviets in Afghanistan, and had close links with wealthy Saudis, who funded his mission generously.

Another Pakistani Islamic scholar Maulana Masood Azhar, who spent years in jail in India, founded the Jaish in April 2000 after New Delhi freed him in a swap for hostages of an Indian airliner hijacked to Afghanistan in December 1999.

The dusty town of Muridke, near Lahore, was the headquarters of the Lashkar. Annual jihad gatherings attended by tens of thousands of followers were held there for recruitment purposes.

After the January ban, the Pakistani government closed Muridke camp and subsidiary offices of the Lashkar and other groups in the country.

But Pakistani intelligentsia still complain that the US spawned the jihadi culture with dollars, arms, and propaganda to defeat the Soviets in Afghanistan.

``When the Americans abandoned the jihadi groups they had created, the ISI started channeling the trained and indoctrinated manpower into Kashmir for its objectives,`` says a pro-jihadi leader, speaking on condition of anonymity.

And Musharraf has repeatedly vowed that, ``No Pakistani can even think of abandoning the Kashmir cause,`` to allay fears that his regime was preparing a deal with India over Kashmir.

Political analyst Mohammad Afzal Niazi says the Musharraf government can achieve ``a degree of success`` on its pledge to stop infiltration across the Line of Control in Kashmir. ``But no government in Pakistan can completely halt cross-border movement in Kashmir, which is one of the most difficult terrains in the world and where people on both sides do not accept the division of their homeland.``

Still, in a sign that tensions on the India-Pakistan border may be easing, Indian Army officials said yesterday that soldiers are being allowed to go on leave for the first time since December.

An Honest Broker`s Reward

By Jim Hoagland

Sunday, June 16, 2002; Page B07

American diplomacy centered on a single word has led to a fragile truce between India and Pakistan. By persuading Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf to add the word ``permanently`` to his promises to stop aiding cross-border terrorism against India, the United States has averted immediate catastrophe and may have opened the way for a strategic realignment in Asia.

Defining precisely what permanently means -- which is an indirect way of establishing the guarantees India needs to relax its still-threatening mobilization of troops and weapons -- is a work in progress. But Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage has initially coaxed enough specifics out of Musharraf about dismantling terror camps in Kashmir to allow the two adversaries to move back from the brink.

Effective diplomacy, if belated. A clearer and more insistent engagement by Washington in March or April to get Musharraf to stop double-dealing on terrorism might have averted the crisis altogether. And for the truce to hold and lead to greater reductions in tension, the United States must remain deeply engaged in the region.

But there is an existential quality to the new commitments Musharraf has given. If he follows through, the general will abandon more than the grisly tactic of murder by proxy. He will sacrifice a fundamental lie that he and his nation have told themselves about Kashmir since he seized power in October 1999.

The lie was that terrorism in Kashmir would significantly affect the outcome of Pakistan`s multiple disputes with India. Pakistan has no other visible hope of getting its larger, more powerful and prosperous neighbor to end its control over two-thirds of Muslim-majority Kashmir. So Musharraf has pretended that he had an answer -- one written in the blood of the Indian occupation force -- and Pakistanis pretended to believe it.

But terrorism against a billion people lacks the force of terrorism against a few million Israelis. Nor does Kashmir resemble Jerusalem as a coveted, cherished goal. What is important to both India and Pakistan is that the other not have Kashmir. Their national identities are bound up in denying possession of it to the enemy. This is a conflict even more artificial -- therefore more unyielding to reason, and savage -- than most such struggles.

Without the myth of an effective terror war, Pakistan accepts, at least implicitly, a status quo that will gradually become the final outcome: an international frontier along the present line of control in Kashmir.

Armitage did not have to dwell on the immediate risks the Pakistani general faced when they met in Islamabad on June 6. The United States had already told Musharraf it would not be able to stop the Indians from attacking if he offered no movement. Washington would not come to his aid if that happened. And China, pursuing better relations with India, had also let Pakistan know it would not intervene if war came.

Against this bleak horizon Musharraf took up the U.S. suggestion that a pledge to halt permanently the infiltration that has been episodic over the past six months was the only way to move the Indians off war footing. The change was announced that day not in Islamabad or in New Delhi but in Washington, as if to emphasize the American role in guaranteeing the promise.

The essential new element is Musharraf`s undertaking to close down the 50 to 60 terrorism ``camps`` the Indians have identified in Kashmir. These range from a collection of a few tents in fields to well-established urban neighborhoods that terrorists control. But Musharraf is now committed to ripping out the plumbing of the terror network created by his intelligence services.

India has offered a few immediate symbolic tension-reducing gestures in response, with more to come in July and then troop reductions in Kashmir if local elections there in October proceed peacefully. All this is contingent on Musharraf`s keeping his word, and surviving an expected Islamic fundamentalist backlash at home.

There is much to worry about in the short term. But India`s acceptance of America`s role as an honest broker in this crisis is a strategic shift worth developing.

Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee seemingly overruled his hawks not because he believed Musharraf but because he believed George W. Bush. There is now an opportunity to use this crisis to reverse decades of mutual mistrust between Washington and New Delhi, which had feared Bush was resuming the U.S. ``tilt`` toward Pakistan that prevailed during the Cold War. That is the big picture the Bush administration must keep in view.

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=211120

Fawad

``another pluce about goa is thats its CHEAPER i know this hot ass israeli chick whose been there

i heard abiza is so expensive anyway its too expensive for a student ``

You get your money`s worth in Iibiza. Besides, u make up in airfare. From the states, a ticket to Barcelona costs half that of a ticket to India. From Barcelona, u can get a ferry to Ibiza for 20 USD.

Goa is great, but only in comparison to rest of India. Cyprus and Ibiza are much better in Europe, and Thailand has some great resorts as well, less prudish too. Thai women are way friendlier than Indian..and the food is cheaper...Lobster in Goa will cost you easy $6 U.S. Thailand, you get it for 2 dollars.

Al Qaeda Gathering Strength in Pakistan

Asia: Operatives are hiding in cities, with support from local extremists. The nation is the terrorists` new hub, U.S. officials say.

Los Angeles Times



http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-000042372jun16.story?null



By BOB DROGIN, JOSH MEYER and ERIC LICHTBLAU, TIMES STAFF WRITERS

WASHINGTON -- Hundreds of Al Qaeda terrorist operatives are hiding in Pakistan`s cities after forming or renewing alliances with local Muslim extremist networks that have helped provide safe houses for communications, training and logistics, U.S. officials say.

The result, they fear, is that America`s closest ally in Central Asia has in effect replaced Afghanistan as a command-and-control center for at least some of the battered remnants of Osama bin Laden`s terrorist army.

``They don`t operate with impunity there like they did in Afghanistan,`` a U.S. intelligence official said. ``But they have lots of supporters, and it`s easy for them to blend in.`` A Justice Department official agreed, saying Al Qaeda members appear to have gone ``wherever they want`` in Pakistan`s teeming cities.

``They`re hiding in plain sight,`` he said.

Brian Jenkins, a terrorism expert at the Rand Corp. think tank in Santa Monica, says Bin Laden might have viewed Pakistan as part of a ``business continuity plan to ensure survival of leadership, financing, communications and so on`` in case Al Qaeda lost its sanctuary in Afghanistan.

Authorities say that Al Qaeda has made similar efforts to regroup by merging with local Muslim extremist groups in Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia. These makeshift alliances are more decentralized than the network long directed by Bin Laden, officials say, and thus might be more difficult for outsiders to penetrate.

Since last fall, the United States and its allies say they have foiled more than a dozen terrorist plots around the world and arrested more than 2,400 suspects in nearly 90 countries.

But more than half of Al Qaeda`s known leaders remain at large, including several linked to the Sept. 11 assaults and other major attacks. Officials are especially eager to catch Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, an Al Qaeda operative linked to almost every attack against the United States since the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993.

U.S. intelligence analysts still believe that Bin Laden and his top aides have found refuge somewhere along Pakistan`s long and lawless border with Afghanistan. Broad pockets of local sympathizers are said to exist in the semiautonomous tribal areas of Baluchistan and North-West Frontier Province.

But U.S. and Pakistani officials now estimate that hundreds more Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters who fled the war in Afghanistan have disappeared into Pakistan. Many are thought to have linked up with like-minded local groups opposed to secular Muslim regimes and to the Western powers that support them.

Backers Mount Attacks

Al Qaeda supporters appear to have been responsible for at least two suicide attacks on Westerners in Pakistani cities this year, U.S. officials say. Al Qaeda leaders and followers have been arrested or tracked in nearly every major Pakistani city, including Karachi in the south, Lahore and Faisalabad in the east, Peshawar in the west, and Rawalpindi and Islamabad, the capital, in the north.

In some cases, U.S. officials say, Pakistani militants and even some members of the government`s Inter-Services Intelligence agency, known as the ISI, have openly supported Al Qaeda and have used an informal underground railroad to help fleeing terrorists.

``The ISI is filled with extremists, and I don`t think they`re trying very hard to find these people,`` said a recently retired U.S. counter-terrorism official who is familiar with the manhunt. ``In fact, they`re actively trying to hide them.``

Another U.S. official downplayed ISI`s role, citing recent intelligence reports. But ``that doesn`t rule out the possibility that there are still links between rogue elements of ISI and Al Qaeda,`` he said.

Al Qaeda`s presence in Pakistan poses a growing danger and dilemma for both Washington and Islamabad.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, who visited Pakistan last week, and other U.S. officials have offered strong public support for President Pervez Musharraf`s military regime, which has provided airstrips, bases, fuel, intelligence and other critical help to U.S. forces.

Privately, however, many U.S. officials are increasingly voicing concerns that Musharraf`s crackdown on local terrorist groups this year has largely failed. Several banned groups have morphed or spawned virulent offshoots that have launched several attacks against Westerners this year. Authorities haven`t solved Friday`s car bombing outside the U.S. Consulate in Karachi, which killed at least 11 Pakistanis and wounded dozens more. A previously unknown group has claimed responsibility, but U.S. officials said the FBI is investigating whether Al Qaeda might be linked to the attack.

U.S. intelligence officials now suspect that groups linked to Al Qaeda were responsible for a May 8 bus bombing in Karachi that killed 11 French engineers and a March 17 grenade attack in Islamabad that killed four Protestant International Church congregants, including a U.S. Embassy employee and her daughter.

The arrest last month of an American-born alleged Al Qaeda operative, Jose Padilla, after he flew to Chicago on what authorities called a scouting mission for a possible radioactive bomb attack, suggested just how widespread Al Qaeda may have become.

U.S. officials say that Padilla, who used the Muslim name Abdullah al Muhajir, studied bomb-making early this year at an Al Qaeda safe house in Lahore, met with senior Al Qaeda officials in March at another safe house in Karachi and traveled elsewhere in the country. Pakistani police arrested Padilla`s alleged accomplice in Rawalpindi.

Although Padilla`s role was not known at the time, U.S. and Pakistani officials raided the Lahore safe house where he had stayed as well as suspected Al Qaeda compounds in several other cities March 28. Abu Zubeida, Al Qaeda`s operations chief, and several of his senior aides were captured after a shootout that night at a house in Faisalabad.

US. authorities say Abu Zubeida approved Padilla`s proposed ``dirty bomb`` plot at a meeting in December in Afghanistan and later traveled with him in Pakistan. Abu Zubeida, U.S. officials say, had been responsible for rebuilding the Al Qaeda network inside Pakistan before his capture.

A senior intelligence official said Al Qaeda ``already had a presence`` in Pakistan ``so they don`t require other groups`` for operations.

``They have always had loose alliances with fellow travelers with similar goals and motives,`` this official added. ``The memberships are very loose. People go back and forth from one group to the other.``

*

Group`s Reach Spreads

Arrests elsewhere also point to the terrorist group`s spread. Saudi Arabia acknowledged Saturday that three men arrested in Morocco on suspicion of planning attacks on U.S. and British ships in the Strait of Gibraltar are Saudi citizens. Morocco said they claim to be Al Qaeda operatives. The attacks would have been similar to the suicide bombing of the U.S. destroyer Cole in Yemen--an operation also linked to Al Qaeda.

As for Pakistan, the State Department, in its annual report on global terrorism issued last month, said Islamabad had ``rendered unprecedented levels of cooperation to support the war on terrorism.`` The report noted that Islamabad broke ties with the Taliban regime in Afghanistan after Sept. 11, froze hundreds of thousands of dollars in suspected terrorist assets and moved to bring radical Muslim schools that served as ``breeding grounds for terrorists`` into the mainstream educational system.

Musharraf`s government also outlawed several terrorist groups and detained more than 2,000 domestic ``extremists,`` the report said. But most have now been released and might be active again.

Questions remain, the State Department warned, about whether ``Musharraf`s `get tough` policy with local militants and his stated pledge to oppose terrorism anywhere will be fully implemented and sustained.``

Part of the problem is Pakistan`s history of covert support and overt tolerance for Muslim extremist groups, starting with the Taliban.

Peter Tomsen, U.S. special envoy for Afghanistan from 1989 to 1992, said the ISI provided the ``weapons, resources and intelligence`` to the Taliban as the Islamic movement rose to power, and then was ``intimately involved`` as the Talibs forged ties with Al Qaeda.

On its other border, Pakistan provided similar support for years to Muslim zealots fighting to oust India from the disputed territory of Kashmir. Terrorist attacks against civilians in Kashmir and in India brought the two nuclear armed rivals to the brink of war in recent weeks, but the crisis eased after Musharraf moved to stop Pakistani militants from crossing into the Indian-held portion of Kashmir.

Until recently, however, little attention was paid to other Pakistani terrorist groups that share Bin Laden`s doctrinaire view of Islam and his hatred of the West. Many attended Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan, or received arms and other support from Bin Laden, even if they didn`t formally join Al Qaeda. The contacts apparently paid off after Sept. 11.

A Pakistani official said his government estimates that at least several hundred Al Qaeda fighters slipped into Pakistan`s 10 tribal territories--mostly in the so-called Pushtun Belt that runs from Quetta to north of Peshawar--last winter. But they were exposed to U.S. satellites and other forces in the open desert, he said, and the cities seemed far safer.

Many had money to buy vehicles, supplies and guides from local warlords, this official said. And many, he said, reached out to a broad underground network of Bin Laden sympathizers and ``fellow travelers,`` mostly urban Pakistani militants.

``The network is there. You have religious groups that were sanctioned for years that no one was shutting down and are operating freely,`` the Pakistani official said. ``They are providing them with sanctuary.... It is an ongoing problem. We are cracking down on them, but they are still out there.``

Two Pakistani groups in particular--Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed--have long espoused the jihad cause against non-Muslims. They now appear to have provided haven or other assistance to Al Qaeda terrorists, the official said.

Authorities say Lashkar-e-Taiba was affiliated with the safe house in Faisalabad where Abu Zubeida and his top aides were arrested. And Jaish-e-Mohammed was linked to the January kidnapping and, later, beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in Karachi.

The State Department labeled both groups as foreign terrorist organizations in December, empowering Washington to freeze any of the groups` assets in the United States and to urge other nations to block their funds.

*

`Very Worrisome` Trend

A former Clinton administration counter-terrorism official said Pakistan`s increasing tangle of terrorist groups and their spinoffs is ``very worrisome.``

``The general turmoil has made it much more attractive for all jihadists in the region to go after American targets,`` he said. The long-range danger is that local Muslim militants backed by Al Qaeda could destabilize Pakistan, overthrow the government and set a dangerous new course for the nation.

``It is entirely within the realms of possibility that Pakistan could end up with an Islamic leadership that is a lot less sympathetic to the United States,`` he said.

Tashbih Sayyed, the Pakistani-born editor of Pakistan Today, published in Southern California, said the war in Afghanistan only ``destroyed an outpost`` of terrorism. ``The main infrastructure remained intact,`` he said. And Pakistan, he warned, ``is kind of a meeting place now for all the radical forces in the world.``

Yaar Saxena, how come you have been to so many parts of the world. R U an overseas consultant in some top shot firm or something. I would love to have this kind of job in which you get to go to Scandinavia, Baltics etc etc on a regular basis.

re harpreet

ur from london tons of pakistani girls dont know why u need to go to lahore( pakistani girls in nyc tend to be ..........id rather not say )

i like any kind of girl who looks pretty to be honest .....indian sikh girl particurally attractive ill make a deal with you ill find you a nice, hot paki girl u find me a nice, hot indian sikh girl ?

War and terrorism

South Asia’s nuclear winter

May 28th 2002

From The Economist Global Agenda

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1153356

India and Pakistan do not have vast nuclear arsenals, but if a conflict over Kashmir did spiral out of control, the destruction from even a limited nuclear exchange could be enormous. Millions would die instantly, and millions more as services collapse and disease and famine spread. All of Asia would be affected

THREE months ago, the directors of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists moved the minute hand of their “Doomsday Clock” from nine minutes to midnight to just seven minutes to, in order to reflect the increased threat of nuclear war. The group, which was founded by scientists who had worked on the first atomic bombs in the second world war, listed the continuing crisis between India and Pakistan over the disputed region of Kashmir as one of their concerns. While all experts agree that the risk of nuclear war has increased in the subcontinent, there is little consensus about what the exact effects would be—except that it would reach nightmare proportions.

Publicly, at least, there are few firm figures on the numbers of nuclear weapons which India and Pakistan can deploy, let alone their capabilities. The atomic scientists estimate that India has about 30-35 nuclear warheads, which is fewer than Pakistan. Some estimates have put the numbers higher: up to 200-250 warheads in India and around 150 in Pakistan. Some American experts say India has around 60 nuclear warheads and Pakistan about 40.

Apart from secrecy, one reason why the estimates of the nuclear arsenals vary so much is that some of the weapons may not be fully assembled. There are reports that India has enough material stockpiled to make 50-100 more nuclear weapons. Most of the warheads are thought to be below 20 kilotons, equivalent to 20,000 tons of TNT. This means they are comparable to the nuclear bombs detonated by the United States over Hiroshima in 1945.

Both sides have short and medium-range ballistic missiles which could deliver nuclear warheads. But the majority of the warheads owned by India and Pakistan are thought to be designed to be dropped as bombs by aircraft. India can arm two types of aircraft to do this: the MiG-27 Flogger, which was made by the old Soviet Union, and the Jaguar, which was used in a nuclear role by the British and French air forces. Pakistan has American-built F-16s. Pakistan’s air defences may be better than India’s, even though its armed forces are heavily outnumbered.

Estimates of the level of destruction that could be wrought by a nuclear war between India and Pakistan vary even more than trying to count warheads. Much would depend on the target, the yield of the bomb, the weather and the altitude at which it is exploded. However, the New York Times has reported that a recent intelligence assessment carried out by America’s Defence Department predicted a frightening number of casualties. It says that in a full-scale nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan, up to 12m people could be killed immediately and up to 7m injured. This would have further cataclysmic consequences, overwhelming hospitals across Asia, and requiring a vast amount of foreign assistance to deal with radioactive contamination and famine and disease.

Even if both sides tried to limit the use of nuclear weapons the destruction would be terrible. At least 3m people would be killed and 1.5m seriously injured if both sides exploded just one in ten of their likely number of nuclear warheads over big cities, according to a study reported in New Scientist. Further deaths would come from the loss of homes, hospitals, water and energy supplies. Then there would be an unknown number of deaths from cancers that would develop in future years. If the bombs exploded on the ground, rather than in the air, radioactive dust could spread across hundreds of square kilometres. As the prevailing winds are from the west, India risks being the biggest victim of radioactive fall-out in any exchange of nuclear weapons.

Although the casualty figures are horrific, India and Pakistan do not possess enough nuclear weapons for their “mutually assured destruction”, a doctrine which helped to prevent the superpowers from entering into nuclear conflict during the Cold War. It is possible that military planners in India and Pakistan believe that a limited nuclear exchange could provide them with a victory. While the immediate death tolls would be huge, both countries have large populations: more than 1 billion Indians and 140m Pakistanis.

The big causes of concern are that conventional military strikes by one side or another could quickly spiral out of control. No one is sure that the unwritten rules which have contained the military conflict to the Kashmir region hold any more. In recent days, as in previous times of tension, the two sides have exchanged heavy machine-gun fire and mortar rounds across the Line of Control, which marks the unofficial border in Kashmir. But the first country to send a missile, even a non-nuclear one, could trigger a tit-for-tat set of reprisals that both sides could find hard to stop.

re: fawad

{another pluce about goa is thats its CHEAPER}

...hell yeah...much cheaper...

{i heard abiza is so expensive anyway its too expensive for a student}

...yeah, best to avoid...better place in spain is alicante on the southern coast...inexpensive...young, friendly crowd...

huh..there is/are no discos, dating or skirts in Lahore?

Despite End of Cold War, Danger of Nuclear Conflict

Looms Like Never Before

Interview with Dr. Helen Caldicott, leading anti-nuclear activist

and founder of Physicians for Social Responsibility

Interview by Scott Harris

Despite the end of the Cold War a decade ago, the danger of nuclear war -- and the human catastrophe such a conflict could inflict on the planet -- has not diminished. In recent months, India and Pakistan have both threatened to use their nuclear arsenals in any future conflict over the disputed territory of Kashmir. The Bush administration, in its drive for military superiority, has abandoned arms control treaties and embarked on deployment of a controversial missile defense system; proposed the development of new battlefield nuclear weapons and threatened to use nukes against non-nuclear states that may possess biological or chemical weapons.

The specter of terrorist groups acquiring and using nuclear weapons has caused great public anxiety with concerns fueled by the recent arrest of a suspect alleged to be planning to explode a radioactive bomb. These new threats, combined with the September 11th attacks on New York and Washington, have provided the White House renewed public support for more aggressive war plans and increased military spending.

Between The Lines` Scott Harris spoke with Dr. Helen Caldicott, a leading anti- nuclear activist for 30 years and founder of the Nobel prizewinning group Physicians for Social Responsibility. Dr. Caldicott, whose latest book is ``The New Nuclear Danger, George W. Bush`s Military Industrial Complex,`` examines the peril she sees in the Bush administration`s nuclear weapons policy.

Dr. Helen Caldicott is author of ``The New Nuclear Danger, George W. Bush`s Military Industrial Complex,`` published by New Press. Contact Dr. Caldicott`s Nuclear Policy Research Institute at (213) 225-5941 or visit their Web site at www.nuclearpolicy.org

http://www.wpkn.org/betweenthelines/

Dispute Over Jammu, Kashmir at Heart

of Rising Tensions between India and Pakistan

Interview by Scott Harris.

For the fourth time in 50 years, India and Pakistan are edging closer to war. Tensions rose shortly after a Kashmiri separatist group launched a Dec. 13 suicide attack against India`s parliament that killed 14 people. The leaders of both nations traded verbal attacks followed by a dangerous buildup of troops along their shared 2,000 mile-long border. India`s leaders charge that Pakistan has failed to rein in terrorist groups which are believed to have been behind the December Parliament attack and an earlier October 1st assault on India¹s Srinagar legislature.

Both India and Pakistan possess nuclear weapons, a fact that alarms many observers who note that the two nations have fought three wars since their founding in 1947. The spark that ignited previous conflicts has been the five decade long dispute over the territories of Jammu and Kashmir ­ a mountainous region both nations claim as their own.

Between The Lines` Scott Harris spoke with Jay Truman, founder and director of Downwinders, a research foundation that works to end nuclear weapons testing and reduce the threat of atomic warfare. Truman discusses the danger of war between India and Pakistan and the historical context which has led to the current conflict.

Untying the Kashmir Knot

Radha Kumar *

The Kashmir dispute, long on the sidelines internationally, has moved front and center since September 11. India has made use of changed opinions since the terror attacks on the United States to pressure Pakistan, which for decades has promoted a jihadist guerrilla movement within Jammu and Kashmir, the only Indian state with a Muslim majority. When Islamic extremists mounted a murderous attack on the Indian parliament last December, New Delhi responded with a massive troop buildup along its border with Pakistan. The confrontation of the two nuclear-armed neighbors was temporarily contained by U.S. and European diplomacy but could flare up again at any moment. Are there more durable means of containing this 50-year dispute? Is there even a possible solution to the problem? This essay will attempt answers, with the important caveat that it is difficult to con-vey the complex and angry passions that the word ``Kashmir`` evokes.

For confirmation, one only has to visit a website for a Pakistani Islamic university, Markaz ad Dawa`ah Wal Irshad (Center for and Invitation to the Spread of Islam). The site featured a poll that asked whether America`s new war was against Islam or terrorists. The poll was programmed so as to elicit an ``against Islam`` response. Elsewhere, the site quoted a prominent Islamic cleric`s claim that the war in Afghanistan was a clash of civilizations: ``This battle will take [the] shape of the religious war of Hind in which the Muslims stood victorious,`` the cleric said, referring to the Mughal conquest of India.

Markaz ad Dawa`ah is the parent organi-zation of the Lashkar-e-Taiba (Army of the Pure), a militia that the U.S. State Depart-ment added to its list of banned terrorist organizations this past January. Founded in 1994, the Lashkar is based in Pakistan but active in Indian-held Jammu and Kashmir. Its religious center is the 200-acre Markaz complex in Pakistan`s Punjab province, but its training camps are in Pakistani-held Azad Kashmir. Its mujahideen (holy warriors) are mostly Punjabi Pakistanis, and until recently it also drew heavily on the radical fringe of Britain`s Muslim diaspora, mostly of Pakistani origin, who provided it with funds and foot soldiers. After an attack on New Delhi`s historic Red Fort in December 2000, which the Lashkar boasts of on its website, Britain banned the group in February 2001. Since then, the supply of British Muslim foot soldiers has trailed off, though recent reports suggest that as much as $3 million a year still flows from Britain into the coffers of the Lashkar and the Jaish-e-Mohammed (Mohammed`s Troops).

*Radha Kumar is a senior fellow and director of the Program on Ethnic Conflict and Peace Processes at the Council on Foreign Relations, New York.

re: dost-mittar

{You do get to travel a lot, dude!}

...what else is there to do?...

{Next time you need someone to carry your bags, remember me!}

...no no, no need for that :)...planning a weekend in the baltic republics in july..see u there?...

re : rsaxena `

another pluce about goa is thats its CHEAPER i know this hot ass israeli chick whose been there

i heard abiza is so expensive anyway its too expensive for a student

Pakistan Says It Seized Americans Tied to Al Qaeda

By DEXTER FILKINS

New York Times

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, June 12 — Several men believed to be American citizens have been taken into custody here during the past few weeks on suspicion of being linked to Al Qaeda, senior Pakistani officials said today.

The Pakistani officials said most of the men had been picked up along with other suspected Al Qaeda and Taliban members in joint American-Pakistani raids in the country`s remote tribal areas near the border with Afghanistan.

They said they believe that the men form a disjointed network of disaffected Westerners who converted to Islam and have been drawn to militant causes, fighting alongside Al Qaeda, the Taliban or guerrillas in Kashmir, the mostly Muslim region claimed by both Pakistan and India.

One man is believed by Pakistani officials to be an associate of Jose Padilla, the Brooklyn-born man detained last month on the suspicion that he was trying to build a radiation dispersal bomb intended for detonation in an American city.

He goes by the name Ahmed Muhammad, which Pakistani officials say they believe is a false name, as well as Benjamin. It was unclear whether Benjamin was used as a first or a last name.

Pakistani officials said several of those detained, including Mr. Muhammad, claimed to be American citizens. But the officials refused to verify the nationalities of any of the detainees for fear of what one called the ``legal implications`` that could impede the interrogations.

Mr. Muhammad, a Pakistani official said, was in Pakistani custody and being interrogated by the F.B.I.

Senior government officials in Washington said they had not yet confirmed that the men being held in Pakistan are American citizens. They also said they had not yet independently determined whether the men are connected to Al Qaeda or other terrorist organizations. The American officials also said they had not established a connection between Mr. Muhammad and Mr. Padilla.

Pakistani officials say they have picked up about 400 suspected members of Al Qaeda and the Taliban in sweeps around the country since December. About 300, they say, have been turned over to American authorities.

They said some of those detained appear to be Westerners who have been drawn to militant Islam. Pakistani officials said today that they believed that an American citizen who had converted to Islam had been killed while fighting alongside Muslim guerrillas in Indian Kashmir in 1998.

They also said they suspected that some of the men recently detained and believed to be Americans may have studied under Mufti Muhammad Iltimas, a radical Islamic cleric who runs a madrasa in Bannu, a village near the border with Afghanistan.

John Walker Lindh, the American charged with fighting alongside the Taliban, is believed to have attended Mr. Iltimas`s religious school, and Pakistani officials say Richard C. Reid, a British subject and suspected Al Qaeda member arrested in December for trying to blow up a passenger jet with a bomb in his shoe, may also have attended the school.

Mr. Iltimas was taken into custody last month during an American-Pakistani operation in the area, and was released the next day.

Taken together, the arrests of Mr. Padilla, Mr. Lindh, Mr. Reid and others appears to offer a glimpse into a world of alienated Western men who apparently dropped out of society and tried to find fulfillment by converting to Islam and fighting for its more radical causes.

One Pakistani official said some of the detained men believed to be Americans may have converted to Islam while serving time in prison in the United States.

Mr. Padilla, who was raised a Roman Catholic and who had a criminal record, converted to Islam when he married a Muslim woman of Middle Eastern descent. Mr. Reid converted to Islam while serving time in prison.

A Pakistani official said his government was looking into the possibility that Mr. Reid and Mr. Padilla were associates during the time officials say they were in Al Qaeda.

Pakistani officials said five other men believed to be of Pakistani or Middle Eastern origin were detained in France today on suspicion of being linked to Mr. Reid.

The officials also said today that they had detained five more people here who are believed to be Pakistani citizens and associates of Mr. Padilla. At least some of those detained are believed to have knowledge of Mr. Padilla`s activities in recent months.

The Pakistani officials said they were also searching for a group of women and children who are believed to have stayed in the same Al Qaeda hideout used by Mr. Padilla and Abu Zubaydeh, the senior Qaeda commander arrested in Pakistan on March 27. American law enforcement officials say Mr. Zubaydeh formed a close association with Mr. Padilla. The women and children are believed to be family members of a senior Qaeda member, possibly but not necessarily those of Mr. Zubaydeh.

The Qaeda hideout where Mr. Padilla and Mr. Zubaydeh were alleged to have spent time together is in Peshawar, a city in Pakistan`s Northwest Frontier Province near the Afghan border. It was some time after that association began that Mr. Zubaydeh was arrested and Mr. Padilla allegedly traveled to Karachi, Switzerland and then the United States with his plans to develop the radiation bomb.

To date, Americans have been detained on suspicion of fighting with the Taliban and with Al Qaeda as part of the Afghan conflict. Today, Pakistani officials said they had confirmed that an American convert to Islam was killed while fighting alongside Muslim guerrillas in Kashmir. The officials said they confirmed the man`s death after seeing a story about him in a magazine called ``Blow of the Believer,`` published by the Army of Muhammad, a Pakistan-based group battling Indian rule in Kashmir. The story did not identify the man by name.

The Army of Muhammad has been outlawed in Pakistan and declared a terrorist organization by the United States. One of its members, Ahmed Omar Sheikh, is charged in the kidnapping and murder of the American journalist Daniel Pearl.

Pakistani officials said that after the story appeared, they contacted members of the guerrilla group and were satisfied that the account was accurate. The Pakistani officials said the American man was killed during an operation with Lashkar-e-Taiba, another guerrilla group battling Indian rule in Kashmir. The group has been outlawed in Pakistan.

The article is entitled ``The story of an American Shaheed,`` using the Arabic word to describe someone who dies in the act of defending Islam against nonbelievers. The magazine said the man, whose Muslim name was Abu Adam Jibreel al Amrikeeas, joined the Kashmiri movement as a 19-year-old in 1997 and was killed in the fall of 1998 during an attack on an Indian Army base.

The article said Mr. Adam was ``born into a considerably wealthy family,`` and grew up in Atlanta, where he attended the Ebeneezer Baptist Church as a child. Much like Mr. Lindh, who has been described as a precocious young man who explored different religious faiths, Mr. Adam is said to have read deeply about various religions, including Judaism and Buddhism, before finally deciding on Islam.

Sax;

Goa is great. You are right about Ibiza, full of British ravers tranced up on ecstacy.

fawad;

I`m from London, but the image you put in my mind of Lahore full of short skirts nightclubs and other stuff was a top one. Because I think Pakistani chicks are pure hotness!

:)

-h-

fawad79 #487:

``whoever posed this qn about muslim girls marryin non muslim guys i wanna ask the reverse how many indian hindu girls marry muslim guys i dont know many do you ???????????????``

Lots, dude, lots. All the movie star Khans (Aamir, Shah Rukh, Arbaaz, Saif Ali) and the cricketers (Azhar, Pataudi) have Hindu wives.

re: harpreet

...fawad`s right...go to goa...you`ll LOVE it...party town of asia i tell you...if u like spicy seafood, you`ll love it even more...

re: fawad

...ibiza ain`t all that...too many brits on drugs...

``since im assuming ur indian doesnt that kind of stuff already go on in bombay and goa ???``

ghar ki murgi daal barabar :-))))

Faiza #479 Did you see any names mentioned in my post that you write I am divulging personal info of anyone??? Huhn, Ms Faiza (or should I say Mr. Amir, or perhaps Bibi Fatimah)?? And who is the Amina Mir?

re harpreet

i wouldnt emigrate cuz

to be honest i couldnt live in pak its too hard if u grew up here and its too damn hot ......

but id visit more often than now for damn sure

since im assuming ur indian doesnt that kind of stuff already go on in bombay and goa ?????????????????

i hear goa is the place to be ..............and abiza to in spain ??????/

whoever posed this qn about muslim girls marryin non muslim guys i wanna ask the reverse how many indian hindu girls marry muslim guys i dont know many do you ???????????????

Urstruly, Dost Mittar,

Dost Mittar, I have been following the responses to your posts with avid interest. I appreciated your list of questions.

re: Urstruly`s post:

``...However, if she renounces her religion (i.e. Islam openly) then she is tried under the Law of Apostasy, for which the capital punishment is prescribed. (Sunni school of thought even exempts women from the capital punishment for Apostasy). The ``honor killing`` that takes place, to which you have indirectly reffered to has no basis in religion. Those people who commit this dastardly act (honor killing)are transgressors. In most cases, however, the honor killing is a crime of passion...``

Urstruly,

Congratulations for being able to understand that honor killing is an excuse for extreme abuse and control.

Can you actually rationalize the state coerced device of capital punishment for a woman who chooses not to follow Islam as being a case of ``different values?``

Again, I wonder how it is that you live in a country that does not proscribe the death penalty for people who refuse to follow Christianity, for example, but instead supports the individual rights of its citizens to choose and practice their beliefs freely, and yet support what amounts to a state terrorism of its citizen`s right to choose his/her belief system. It is rank hypocrisy.

(Don`t get all sniffy about this-your positions are quite astounding. And if you dare start up your ``kanjar`` nonsense, I will make it my personal mission to heckle you off Chowk. Your past modus operandi will not haul your questionable posts out of accountability.)

Drumz

I believe there was a form of yoga that originated in Ethiopia, according to a school of African studies.

fawad79;

[also i want to have bars in pakistan openly

i want dance clubs women in skirts open dating and a few sausage houses ...........]

- The day that happens I am emigrating to Lahore:)

-h-

Pakistani Crackdown Gives Rise to Doubts

South Asia: Curbing Islamic extremism is widely seen as key to easing tensions over Kashmir. But to some, it borders on betrayal.



By TYLER MARSHALL, TIMES STAFF WRITER

MANSEHRA, Pakistan -- The first hint of a government crackdown against Muslim extremist groups in this dusty market town came in January, local businessman Jamil Ahmed recalls.

That`s when police told him to stop collecting money for the militant Al Badr organization, which for nearly a decade ran a training camp in the nearby hills. Locals say it was one of eight such camps in the Mansehra area that turned young Pakistani volunteers into Islamic warriors--known as jihadis--and then launched them across the frontier to fight in the Indian-controlled portion of disputed Kashmir.





By March, jihadi recruiting posters that had lined the streets of this town in Pakistan`s Northwest Frontier Province for years quietly came down, as did billboards proclaiming Indian atrocities against the predominantly Muslim Kashmiris. Then, Ahmed and other residents say, the camps themselves were closed about two months ago and those who ran them vanished. For political moderates here and in India, that`s good news.

Curtailing the jihadi groups is widely viewed as a vital first step in scaling back a crisis that has led India and Pakistan to mass about 1 million troops on their border and raised the frightening prospect of the world`s first war between two nuclear-armed states.

Pakistani officials say the crackdown in Mansehra is part of a broader move against Islamic militant groups that began tentatively this year and appears to have gradually gained greater purpose. Leaders of many of the militant groups were detained last month, according to authorities.

Today, there is little visible evidence in Mansehra of either the jihadis or their cause.

After initial skepticism, India appears to have accepted that Pakistan has stopped militants from crossing the so-called Line of Control that divides Kashmir, but the extent to which their activities inside Pakistan have been halted remains unclear. India, for example, says that at least three training camps still operate in the area around Mansehra--a charge that Pakistan rejects.

``I can say with authority there are no training camps operating now,`` declared army Brig. Javed Iqbal Cheema, who is leading Pakistan`s efforts to shut down the extremist groups.

Locals, however, refused to take a foreign reporter to visit the camp locations, saying they were afraid of possible reprisals from ``the agencies``--a reference to Pakistani intelligence organizations, including the Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI, that for years have been the jihadis` main backers within the country`s military establishment.

The government`s follow-up on the initial arrests of suspected militant group members has also raised questions about the crackdown`s effectiveness. For example, 21 militants arrested here in April under an anti-terrorism law were set free recently for lack of evidence.

For President Pervez Musharraf, shutting off support for the jihadi groups means stepping back from a decade-old strategy: using religiously motivated fighters to harass India with a persistent, but effective, low-grade guerrilla campaign in Kashmir.

The mountainous, spectacularly beautiful territory, claimed by India and Pakistan, has been the object of two of their three wars in the last 55 years. After suffering defeat twice in conventional conflicts at the hands of superior Indian forces in Kashmir, Pakistan embraced the jihadis in the late 1980s.

Although government support for the jihadis has always been denied publicly, the groups for years recruited openly, published magazines, solicited donations and operated sophisticated training camps.

Two years ago, Al Badr leader Bakht Zameen even brought a group of Pakistani reporters based in Peshawar to the group`s camp near here to watch a colorful graduation ceremony for recruits who had completed basic training before heading for Kashmir.

``The level of discipline was amazing,`` said one witness who declined to be identified. ``It was like watching an army.``

A 22-year-old volunteer jihadi from Peshawar who used the nom de guerre Uqab said in an interview this week that his main training camp instructors were retired Pakistani army members. He went through a camp run by the Hezb-ul-Moujahedeen group two years ago near Muzaffarabad, the capital of the Pakistani-held portion of Kashmir.

Uqab said the camp offered three types of courses, including three-week basic training and a special forces session that taught recruits how to use a variety of weapons, including hand grenades and rocket launchers. The third course lasted six months and was for suicide bombers.

``Very few people are selected for this course,`` Uqab said.

In recent months, actions attributed to the jihadi groups, including a daylight attack in December on the Indian Parliament in New Delhi, have exacerbated political tensions between the two nations.

For Musharraf, moving against the Islamic militants carries considerable domestic risks in a country where the struggle to break India`s grip over Kashmir is imbibed with mother`s milk.

Pakistan`s vociferous fundamentalist Islamic minority already resents Musharraf`s decision to abandon Afghanistan`s Taliban government and side with America and the West in the war against international terrorism after Sept. 11. Some now see Musharraf`s clampdown on the Kashmir militants as dangerously close to betrayal.

``People aren`t happy about this,`` said Junus Khattak, a local leader of Pakistan`s largest religious-based party, Jamaat-i-Islami. ``Jihadi groups should be allowed to operate [in Kashmir]. Their fight is on the side of good, on the side of the oppressed.``

But the biggest danger for Musharraf as he moves forward might not be from an angry populace but from disgruntled elements within his ruling establishment, including the ISI and senior ranks of the army.

Some officers in both institutions see the guerrilla campaign not just as an effective and low-cost response to India`s huge military superiority but also as part of a far larger global struggle to end the oppression of Muslims. As such, these officers have developed strong loyalties to the militants.

``Pakistan had success diplomatically after Sept. 11 when it became the centerpiece of an anti-terror campaign, but militarily, it has suffered a huge setback in Kashmir,`` said Rasul Bakhsh Rais, a regional specialist at Quaid-i-Azam University in Islamabad, the capital. ``The question now is if this really leads to a de-escalation and genuine dialogue for a peaceful settlement of the issue.``

International diplomatic efforts, such as Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld`s visit to the region this week, are expected to dwell on measures to verify the frontier`s stability and to coax both sides to pull back military forces and, eventually, begin talks.

Many Pakistanis worry that Musharraf has conceded too much. With the jihadis cut off from Indian-controlled areas, they fear, India`s security forces are likely to move more freely against indigenous Kashmiri separatist groups. Any such action from New Delhi would put pressure on Musharraf to unleash the jihadi groups again, especially if there is no progress toward negotiations.

``If he gets nothing [from India], he`ll ask the militants to lie low and consider his options,`` Rais said. ``He`ll keep the structures [of the militant groups] intact.``

Los Angeles Times

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-000041298jun12.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dworld

scouty,

{{there`s nothing to gain from being accusatory and negative towards a neighboring country.}}

Aw, come on , Mother Teresa, whats wrong with a little bit of harmless mud slinging?:)

Its a guy thing, OK! You know..mine is bigger than yours...?:)))

Come to think of it, you gals are no better. I mean.. dont you enjoy a khunnas-ka cat fight every now & then?

Let me tell you, I live with 2 feminazis. Talking about PMS. For some reason, when 2 women live under the same roof, their cycles become synchronized. Jesus Christ, when the 2 of them are PMS, I YEARN for the peace & tranquility of the Psychiatric Intensive Care Unit!

I grew up with 3 brothers (no sisters), 13 cousin brothers (no cousin sisters), went to an all-boys Catholic school. The first 16 years of my life were extremely easy.

Then I came in contact with another species of humans: WOMEN!! Perhaps thats why I became a Psychiatrist--to try & understand the ``other half`` of humanity. Fat chance! I ask my collegues (even the female shrinks) even THEY cant understand them! I can even figure out CRAZY people, but WOMEN..thats a whooole different ball game!!

The ONLY thing I cant figure out about us men is why we cant live with them & why we cant live without them. I think its because God has cursed us with those damned hormones...

The ONLY people, IMO, who have REALLY figured out women are the fundo muslims. ``Respect them by locking them up in the house..only send them out with an escort & cage them in a burkha``. Anything less & they will eat you alive!

I think there is a lot of wisdom in that logic. I mean, how else can a guy up to marry 4 of them & still retain his sanity is beyond me! (grinning, running & ducking)...

Tribal marriages

In the traditional marriage market, laws of primitive tribalism obtain. These tribalistic laws are given a thin veneer of religion by almost all peoples. Brahminism promulgated such religious laws, Catholics and Protestants did, Jews did.

Hence, common attitudes toward inter-community marriage(of which inter-religion marriages are a special case) can best be understood by the logic of tribalism.

The logic of tribalism has three salient features: (1) Marriage is seen as an EXCHANGE between two families or groups, not a UNION of two souls. (2) Women are considered as chattel, belonging to men. (3) Daily life is pathologically bound up with constant status gaming.

So when two members of a tribalistic universe marry, one group/family ``gives`` a possession (a daughter) to another group/family. The giving party earns status when the gift is given to a HIGHER status group. The giving party loses status when the gift is ``wasted`` on a lower status group. The receiving party earns status when the gift is received from a higher status group. It loses status when it accepts a gift from a lower-status group.

Some implications quickly follow -

1. Irrespective of religion or nationality, people will be far more willing to accept a man from a `higher-status` other group, or a man who himself enjoys high social status.

2. Outgroup women will be far more welcome than outgroup men. However, women from higher-status outgroup are likely to be treated differently than women from lower status groups. Marriage to women from higher status other-group are likely to be relatively ``public`` affairs. When property is received from a `lower status` group, the exchange is less likely to be equally public. In positive situtations, the dominant attitude is likely to be of magnanimity (we are good people; we don`t discriminate). In negative situations, the attitude is likely to be one of condescension (we did you a favor - humare ladke to tau kaisee kaisee ladkiyan mil saktee theen).

3. People with naturally secured status that can not be easily challenged are more likely to accept an outgroup man for their daughters.

4. Even historically, lower status people gave their daughters to higher status people in return for the latter`s protection, friendship, or simply, mercy. Whoever heard of a woman from a higher status group marrying a man from a lower status group?

Old brahminism had a curious dictum. Brahmin women could NEVER EVER marry a non-brahmin man. However, brahmin men could (although it was not advisable) marry non-brahmin women. Brahminism, went the argument, was a great ocean into which women as tributaries could flow, so long as they were willing to lose their prior identitiy, take up the life of brahmins, raising their children as brahmins.

The silliness of such arrogance and bigotry is, ofcourse, astonishing. But in a tribalistic framework it makes perfect sense. For many people - people with weak individual identities - it is the only way.

Cheers.

anNy #474 I know a Pakistani lady who left her Pakistani husband for an Anglo who has not bothered to convert. She (and sometimes her husband) frequently go to Pakistan and no one has a problem with the situation (except perhaps the ex-hubby, but that is his problem).

I dont know how this question came up, or what the point is, but thought I would throw in my two-bits.

dost mitter

I am glad that you get the point.

Re: Dost Mittar

The current head of the Aga Khan Rural Support Program is an American and his wife is a Pakistani . To the best of my knowledge, he has not converted, even nominally, to Islam and no one has demanded her death. However, I think that she is an Aga Khani so not really a Muslim after all (according to some whackos) if you want to get reaaaaaaaaally picky about it.

dostmittar

there are pakistani muslim women married to non muslims...not too many though..one example for you would be durriya qazi (writer artist high profile professor of the arts) married to an anglo who is also an artist and teaches art...nobody has slaughtered her yet :)

shankar bhai #468,

are you PMS`ing :)

i`ve come to realize that this India-vs-Pakistan debate is so useless and endless.... i don`t wish to burn brain matter over it.

there`s nothing to gain from being accusatory and negative towards a neighboring country.

and don`t be so quick to judge all Pakistanis based on some idiots who love the military. i`m not judging you or other Indians based upon what happened in Gujarat or other political, economic, social ills.

----

http://www.msnbc.com/news/764085.asp

A Secret Army’s Vow

In clandestine meetings with NEWSWEEK, Pakistani extremists say attacks in Indian-held Kashmir will continue

By Zahid Hussain and Ron Moreau

NEWSWEEK

June 17 issue — The Pakistani guerrilla commander is thin, soft-spoken and ever so polite. So when Pakistani military officers invited him to an emergency meeting two weeks ago, he showed up as requested, even though he suspected that he might not like what he heard. The guerrilla, whom we’ll call Atif, directs several hundred fighters who operate deep in Indian-held Kashmir. He was one of some two dozen Kashmiri commanders invited to the meeting, held at a Pakistani Army base 25 miles from the front lines.

THE MOOD GREW TENSE, Atif says, as soon as a major general from the powerful Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency began speaking. “We don’t have a choice, given the tremendous pressure on Pakistan,” the ISI man said, almost apologetically. “So you are ordered to stop immediately all cross-border operations.” Several of the guerrilla commanders jumped to their feet, thundering that Pakistan shouldn’t cave to Indian threats. They denounced President Pervez Musharraf by name, Atif recalls. “After ditching the Taliban, Musharraf has now betrayed the Kashmiri cause,” shouted one commander. “How can we accept this?” Anger swept the room, and all the commanders stalked out without accepting the general’s invitation to join him for a meal.

Musharraf seems to be getting serious, at last, about preventing cross-border attacks on Indian soldiers and civilians. The reason is simple. Kashmiri militants, with their spectacular suicide attacks on the Indian Parliament in December and an Indian Army base on May 14, have brought the world closer to nuclear war than perhaps at any time in 40 years. India and Pakistan have a million troops on their common border, and much of the world is worried. A procession of top-level diplomats has passed through (Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld will make his appearance this week). They’ve all pressed Musharraf, in particular, to stop the brinkmanship.

But even if Musharraf is sincere about halting incursions, can he enforce his will? “There could be renegades from these militant groups who can’t really be stopped regardless of the tremendous obstacles they face,” says Talat Masood, a retired Pakistani Army lieutenant general. Many of the commanders who stormed out of the recent meeting with the ISI general said they would soon meet with their fighters to discuss the infiltration ban. A commander we’ll call Irfan, of the radical Harkat ul-Mujahedin group, claims that hundreds of his men have been waiting impatiently for orders to infiltrate into Indian-held territory. (NEWSWEEK met clandestinely with the guerrillas, and none wanted their names used.) “Our volunteers are becoming increasingly upset over the long delay,” says Irfan.

Newsweek.MSNBC.com

Commanders like Atif and Irfan are sizing up their chances of defying the ban, and seem to like the odds. First, they know how to work covertly. Even though their offices have been closed and their bank accounts frozen, they continue to get funding, they say. Nor is acquiring weapons a problem. “What do we need to fight? Not much,” says another commander. “Hand grenades and Kalashnikovs are available everywhere.” They also know the lay of the land better than anyone. “Our men manage to sneak past the Indians, so how can the Pakistanis stop us?” says Irfan.

Atif claims there are between 1,200 and 1,500 Pakistani militants already inside Kashmir. “Many of our men are stuck across the line,” says Irfan. As a result, he believes, some of these men may step up attacks on their own. “If they can’t come home, they’ve got nothing to lose.” And the militants inside Pakistan could eventually target Musharraf. If the president “keeps pressuring the militants while India maintains this aggressive posture, then Musharraf could be finished,” says General Masood. As it is, presidential security has been tightened. Musharraf’s movements are kept secret and his travel route frequently changed at the last minute. The Kashmiri commanders have few such worries. “We will continue to fight,” says Atif. “God always creates ways for us.”

Dost_Mitter

`Zina` is a good point; but when I wrote my last post, I thought of a non-Muslim country where local law has precedence over Islamic law. In that case jurists have recommended social boycott. But in Darul Islam i.e. a Muslim country the perpetrators of such crime are tried under hudood ordinance of zina. A few years ago a couple was tried under this ordinance where a Muslim woman had married a christian man. The case was highly publicized but I don’t remember the outcome of the case. I think in Paksitan you wont find an inter-religious married couple. People even frown upon marrying in different sunni sects, what to talk about inter-religious marriages. Shia sunni marriages are considered a lost cause and sometimes even mourned.

``One of my values is that you do not become different from me just because I do not share your faith.``

It sounds sweet but unfortunately I don’t share this value of yours (and I am pretty sure that neither do you). It is unnatural. Diversity is inherent in human nature. What white man has discovered now i.e. diversity is power, was taught to us some 1500 years ago. Here are some words from the Last Sermon of our Holy Prophet “0 Ye people, Allah says: 0 people We created you from one male and one female and made you into tribes and nations, so as to be known to one another. Verily in the sight of Allah, the most honoured amongst you is the one who is most God fearing. There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab and for a non-Arab over an Arab, nor for the white over the black nor for the black over the white except in God`s consciousness.”

scouty,

Hon,

I HUMBLY admit that Pakistan whips India`s butt hands down in cricket, hockey, women`s beauty & chalo..even cusine..

What I cant STAND about Pakistani (OK Pakistani men) is how they strut around boasting about their military! World famous this & world famous that. Yeah..world famous---my butt..

Darn it, they have lost every goddamned war, comitted a genocide, taken over their own country in 4 coups, spat at Jinah`s ideals of democracy & then have the gaul to strut around like their crap doesnt stink!!!

To make matters worse they`ve made every Pakistani believe that India is salivating at the prospect of annexing Pakistan & that without their great bravery it would have happened!

What rubbish! No offense..Pakistan is no great Shangrila that India wants..heck Pakistanis can barely govern themselves...you expect India to govern them?! GET REAL!!!

This may come as a real surprise to you Pakistanis. Even if Indians think TNT was wrong, 50 + years have passed & we definitely dont want you BACK!!!

Its crazy Pakistanis who shout at rallys ``Delhi mein phir raj karenge!``. I assure you, no Indians EVER shout ``Isloo mein raj karenge!`` So, please tell your children to sleep very soundly at night. Aint no Indian boogey man coming to knock on his door, in the middle of the night! Its just your jawan, with his ubiquitous danda, threatening your rights & then blaming the evil bamman-banias for all your problems..

And please please dont make excuses like we are so much smaller than you...well if you are, then dont try & butt heads with India. Please dont LIE & say ``Oooh we NEVER do``...you were caught RED HANDED in Kargil & recently in cross border terrorism, on & on. NOBODY in the WHOLE WORLD is believing Pakistan, so dont even try debating this point.

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muslim women should marry whoever they damn well please ...............if they were practicing muslims they wouldnt but if they do so what? i could care less ..............

also i want to have bars in pakistan openly

i want dance clubs women in skirts open dating and a few sausage houses ...........

honestly islam can only thrive in a secular society it will show who is muslim cuz he believes in islam and who i muslim out of tradition or force or gains

Re Urstruly (#454):

You wrote ” …those who openly show contempt towards Islam and its core principles (like Quadianies) …”

This is a blatant lie. As an Ahmadi-Muslim, I have highest regard for the teachings of Islam, the message of Quran, and the dear Prophet (pbuh). I consider myself a true Muslim … and nothing more or less.

Your comments regarding Ahmadis amount to propaganda and lies, which you have not been able to substantiate. On the other hand, you have maintained silence over my blunt criticism of absurdities of “your” Islam.

Or … perhaps you are waiting to ask Issa-ibne-Marriam when he finally descends from the sky … and has killed the one-eyed monster riding a huge fire-breathing donkey … or perhaps you don’t believe that this will ever happen. In any case … it sure makes a good bedtime story … in the name of Islam …

So tell me again … you were discussing core principles of Islam. What about them …?

Aeisha or whatever

First there are still a few aborigines left in Australia , there are some Maoris left in NZ, there are Indians left in America, what does all this prove?

In your question is your answer.

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````I had earlier asked a question that no Pakistani answered.

Has a Muslim Pakistani girl EVER married a non-muslim in Pakistan`s history and still alive in Pakistan? ````(dost-mitter)

Not-a-Pakistani -- but I will answer that.

Yes -- dost mitter saheb:



Mrs. Naipaul -- Sir Vidia`s beloved -- sharp tongued short tempered wife -- Nadira Khanum Alvi -- a noted Pakistani columnist -- who according to Naipaul`s mentor-now nemesis --

chauvnist pig Theroux -- is ``in her bumptiousness and careless writing, the antithesis of everything Naipaul cherished``.

yes she is still alive and kicking -- but outside Pakistan:-)

``But NEVER have I seen any Muslim (including the likes of Shabana Azmi) supporting Muslim girls marrying a non-muslim````(Dost-mitter)

Mere bhai/dost mitter saheb:

:-) ....:-) .....:-)

Never say Never in this world --- let me tell you -- at least ONE Muslims -- whose daughters and son have married Christians, and Jewish -- and whose niece has married a Hindu kid -- with all the support and blessings I could give and afford:-)

hasan

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dost-mittar,

the reason muslim women do not--cannot--marry non-Muslim men (and remain Muslims) is because it has been explicitly forbidden in the Qur`an Sharif. If you have a problem with that...tough.

* * * * * *

shankar bhai #451,

we may have lost wars (what are the odds that a smaller country is going to win against a larger country?), but we`re still better looking than you all ;)

Dost-Mitter #452

Your understanding of Muslim law of inter-religious marraiges is incorrect on several accounts. First of all Muslim men are not allowed to marry anyone whom they please. A Muslim man is allowed to marry among the people of the book only i.e. Jews and Christians (book being Torah and Bible). Some Muslim jurists have argued to include Zortostrians as the people of book as well. The pre-condition for such a marriage is that the jew or christian woman must agree to raise the children as Muslims. Some jurists have argued that it must be a formal pre-nuptual agreement before such marriage is commenced by authorities. It is also a general agreement among Muslim jurists that Muslim women can only marry Muslim men, however, there is a minority school of thought (I can`t recall which one) which allowes Muslim women to marry among people of Book. Both Muslim men and women are strictly restricted from marrying with non-Muslims, pagans, atheists, and those who openly show contempt towards Islam and its core principles (like Quadianies).

The reason for this is very simple and very explicit. Islam in its nature, is a religion, that stipulates propogation through conversion. The purpose being that the message of Allah reaches to the far and wide corners of this globe. The inter-religion marriages among people of book promotes goodwill and also as a vehicle for conversion.

Your information that a Muslim women who defies this law and still marries a non-Muslim should be killed is absolutely incorrect. The prescribed ``punishment`` for such an act is social boycott of the couple at all levels. However, if she renounces her religion (i.e. Islam openly) then she is tried under the Law of Apostasy, for which the capital punishment is prescribed. (Sunni school of thought even exempts women from the capital punishment for Apostasy). The ``honor killing`` that takes place, to which you have indirectly reffered to has no basis in religion. Those people who commit this dastardly act (honor killing)are transgressors. In most cases, however, the honor killing is a crime of passion.

The rest of your comments are a value judgement on Islamic law and show only your personal preferences. You prefer your values or system of values over those of Islamic, therefore, you are not Muslim. Your personal like and dislike of a certain law does not invalidate it. So is the case with a value, especially if it is a value of the people who are differnt than you.

Chunkey Chutya,

{{Without Sglph Mukti Bahni ,Manekshaw would be eaten alive by the Khasia like Bangladeshi tribals.}}

Hahahaha!!!

Add this to the looooong list of excuses you Pakis come up with for why you got your asses whupped in every frikking war with India. You guys are WORLD FAMOUS for that..I grant you!

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AeishA 448

[More Parsis are intermarried with Muslims than Hindians per capita.]

Wrong. How many Pakistani Parsi men have been able to marry Pakistani Muslim girls and accepted as part of Pakistani society?

Parsis are not intermarried with Muslims. Parsi girls have been married to Muslim men and converted to Islam. Daughters of these same Parsi girls will not be allowed to marry Parsis.

This one sided pattern was set by the secular Jinnah who married an underage Parsi girl, got her converted to Islam, and would not accept a daughter born of a Parsi wife to marry a Parsi boy. This is not intermarriage between two communities. This one sided marriage market is called fascism.

Children of that Parsi girl Jinnah forced to convert to Islam do not want to anything to do with Pakistan. They call themselves Indians.

The view from London

By Irfan Husain

(excerpts -- with a few tufseers/tubsaraas)

Just before leaving Karachi, I read in the newspapers that General Musharraf had dispatched a number of envoys around the world to brief leaders and opinion-makers about the Kashmir issue.

Now this might come as a bit of a surprise to our president, but this is precisely what our ambassadors have been doing for the last five decades.

In fact, the mileage racked up by the special envoys sent from Islamabad over the years to brief the world on Kashmir would have filled the large gap in our budget had they been kept home.

I don`t think we have any idea of the profound boredom the mere mention of the word `Kashmir` inspires in the chanceries of world capitals.

(...and the civilized world`s horror -- at the brazen pronouncements of one of these `army envoys` -- like Karamt miaN -- claiming the right and readiness -- to nuclear ``first strike`` -- in ``extreme eventuality`` -- khoda mahfooz rukhkhe ghum ko aise ghum goosaaroN se)

I can understand Musharraf`s dilemma and can even sympathize with him: having dumped the Taliban under American pressure, he is having a hard time doing the same thing to the Kashmiri mujahideen because the Indians are demanding it.

Having supported both extremist groupings (or rather, different manifestations of the same phenomenon) for years, the army is now loath to ditch them.

And on their part, the Indians are offering no quid pro quo, thus making it even harder for Musharraf to break away from the policy he inherited (did anybody asked him to?) and has carried forward during his (illegal) tenure (as a convenient oozre goonaah).

But tough times call for tough decisions, and that`s what leadership is about.

Given the tension on our borders and the very real danger of war with all its imponderable consequences, somebody has to blink first.

Musharraf has said in his otherwise uncompromising speech last week that Pakistan would not export extremism or militancy.

If he can deliver on this pledge, we should welcome his statement of intent.

(If -- now that`s big IF -- for Musharraf miaN -- Irfan Husain saheb -- buqaul Ghalib -- tere waade pe jiye hum....ke khushi se mur na jatey agar etabaar hotaa -- buhurkaif...let`s see)

There has been some talk of joint patrols to ensure that border crossings in Kashmir are halted. If this can be implemented, it could be the first step towards de-escalation.

Perhaps secret talks on neutral territory with third party facilitation would help both countries pull back