Lighting The Nuclear Fire

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DRUMZ #334
You have spent lotsa time writing lotsa posts saying only one thing : how biased I am. You could have spent all that effort explaining how wrong I was in my information/theses and why. Since you aren`t going to be doing that, move on!

shakir69 #331:

[….As a card-carrying Pakistani who lives in Pakistan (as opposed to pakistanis abroad who seem to think they have their hands on the pulse of every Pakistani in Pakistan) I can say that the blood of Kashmir doesnt flow through my blood. Ask any man/woman/child on the street and they will say the same thing. The majority of the populations of both India and Pakistan want the same things - food, clean water, shelter, access to health care, and better lives for their children. My proposition is not regurgitated rhetoric or theories, it`s actually a money spinner and a half. Lease Kashmir to the Japanese for 200 years and turn it into a huge golf course and ….]

…damn you for stealing my ideas…almost:)….

…well here is to a card carrying Pakistani from a tattooed disapora one…what is a tattoed Pakistani you may ask…just made it up sir…anyways…

just this morning in the shower had this idea…

[….for the purposes of this temporal doctrine Kashmir is to mean both portions of Kashmir…]

[…islam is one of the two root causes…for all problems between the republics of Uglistan and Smellistan…am busy writing the 31st chapter for the former…this is taking longer since have no angel help…and the voices that I hear out of thin air have very bad acoustics…so will put it on the backburner for now…]

...the other root cause is...well Kashmir…and am struck by our individual and collective audacity/ies…(and a suffocating and debilitating immobility)...

…will suggest a simple solution…let us walk away from kashimr…`US`…as in Uglistan and Smellistan…and leave the indecisive Kashmiris under some vague UN mandate to sort out whatever it is they (really) want to do with themselves…give them twenty years or so to do it…

…let the UN manage their defense and external affairs……republics of Uglistan and Smellistan to contribute a fixed portion towards the Kashmir operating budget…don’t care what it is… could be Rs. 1 per litre gasoline/diesel consumption tax or an average of what the republics spent in the past twenty years…with inflation indexing… plus an annual surcharge roughly equivalent to ‘shelling’ and ‘firing’ expenses incurred over the last twenty years across the line of control...

…of course we will call this the temporal doctrine…

…let’ s further fine tune this... who will be responsible for internal and external security?…in the beginning it will have to be UN forces…but as soon as they can they should raise and train local kashmiris to look after their local security...as for the external security…well…along the Smellistan border it should be guarded with Uglistan soldiers under UN command and along Uglistan border it should be Smellistan soldiers under UN command…

…and soon… japanese golfers, Uglistani and Smellistani tourists and traders and other will be seen singing a chorus along dal lake…`kaashmir ki kali houN main….mujh ko na chehRo babuji…kabhi nahiN, kabhi nahiN, kabhi nahiN…

rgds,

t

Summer games with nuclear bombs



[MONDAY, JUNE 03, 2002 10:56:39 PM]

_______________________________________________

ARUNDHATI ROY

As diplomats’ families and tourists disappear from the subcontinent, western journalists arrive in Delhi in droves. Many call me. “Why haven’t you left the city?” they ask. “Isn’t nuclear war a real possibility?

Isn’t Delhi a prime target?

If nuclear weapons exist, then nuclear war is a real possibility. And Delhi is a prime target.

It is.

But where shall we go? Is it possible to go out and buy another life because this one’s not panning out?

If I go away, and everything and everyone — every friend, every tree, every home, every dog, squirrel and bird that I have known and loved — is incinerated, how shall I live on?

Who shall I love?

And who will love me back? Which society will welcome me and allow me to be the hooligan that I am here, at home?

So we’re all staying. We huddle together. We realise how much we love each other. And we think, what a shame it would be to die now. Life’s normal only because the macabre has become normal.

While we wait for rain, for football, for justice, the old generals and eager boy-anchors on TV talk of first strike and second-strike capabilities as though they’re discussing a family board game.

My friends and I discuss Prophecy, the documentary about the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The fireball.

The dead bodies choking the river. The singed, bald children, still alive, their clothes burned into their bodies.

The cancers, implanted genetically, a malignant letter to the unborn. We remember especially the man who just melted into the steps of a building. We imagine ourselves like that.

As stains on staircases. I imagine future generations of hushed schoolchildren pointing at my stain...that was a writer. Not She or He.

That.

I’m sorry if my thoughts are stray and disconnected, not always worthy. Often ridiculous.

My husband’s writing a book on trees. He has a section on how figs are pollinated. Each fig only by its own specialised fig wasp.

There are nearly a thousand different species of fig wasps, each a precise, exquisite, synchrony, the product of millions of years of evolution. All the fig wasps will be nuked. Zzzz. Ash. And my husband. And his book.

A dear friend, who’s an activist in the Narmada Bachao Andolan, is on indefinite hunger strike protesting the forced eviction of villagers to make way for the Man Dam. Today is the fourteenth day of her fast.

What an act of faith and hope! How brave it is to believe that in today’s world, non-violent protest will register, will matter.

Will it?

To governments that are comfortable with the notion of a wasted world, what’s a wasted valley?

The threshold of horror has been ratcheted up so high that nothing short of genocide or the prospect of nuclear war merits mention. Peaceful resistance is treated with contempt. Terrorism’s the real thing.

The underlying principle of the War Against Terror, the very notion that war is an acceptable solution to terrorism, has ensured that terrorists in the subcontinent now have the power to trigger a nuclear war.

Displacement, dispossession, starvation, poverty, disease — these are now just the funnies, the comic-strip items.

Our home minister says Amartya Sen has it all wrong — the key to India’s development is not education and health but Defence (and don’t forget the kickbacks, O Best Beloved).

Perhaps what he really meant was that war is the key to avert the world’s attention from fascism and genocide.

To avoid dealing with any one single issue of real governance that urgently needs to be addressed.

For the governments of India and Pakistan, Kashmir is not a problem, it’s their perennial and spectacularly successful solution. Kashmir is the rabbit they pull out of their hats every time they need one. It’s a radioactive rabbit now, and it’s careening out of control.

No doubt there is Pakistan sponsored cross-border terrorism in Kashmir.

But there are other kinds of terror in the Valley.

There’s the inchoate nexus between jehadi militants, ex-militants, foreign mercenaries, local mercenaries, underworld Mafiosi, security forces, arms dealers and criminalised politicians and officials on both sides of the border.

There’s also rigged elections, daily humiliations, ‘disappearances’ and staged ‘encounters’.

And now the cry has gone up in the heartland: India is a Hindu country.

Muslims can be murdered under the benign gaze of the state.

Mass murderers will not be brought to justice. Indeed, they will stand for elections.

Is India to be a Hindu nation in the heartland and a secular one around the edges?

Meanwhile the International Coalition Against Terror makes war and preaches restraint. Britain is busy arming both sides.

Tony Blair’s ‘peace’ mission a few months ago was actually a business trip to discuss a one billion pound deal (and don’t forget the kickbacks, O Best Beloved) to sell Hawk fighter-bombers to India.

“Why isn’t there a peace movement?” western journalists ask me ingenuously. How can there be a peace movement when, for most people in India, peace means a daily battle: for food, for water, for shelter, for dignity?

War, on the other hand, is something professional soldiers fight far away on the border.

And nuclear war — well, that’s completely outside the realm of most peoples’ comprehension. The last question every visiting journalist always asks me is: Are you writing another book?

This talk of nuclear war displays such contempt for music, art, literature and everything else that defines civilisation. So what kind of book should I write?

It’s not just the one million soldiers on the border who are living on hair-trigger alert.

It’s all of us.

That’s what nuclear bombs do. Whether they’re used or not, they violate everything that is humane. They alter the meaning of life itself.

Why do we tolerate them? Why do we tolerate the men who use nuclear weapons to blackmail the entire human race?(AR)<

Rsaxena #329 Actually, Drumz prefers his babes to be whip-snapping, combat boot wearing types.

Drumz #314 you write (not to me, thank God, but to someone else): ``Your WHOLE outlook whould change if u were not an Indian. This is the idiocy of patriotism. Its is DEPENDENT on traits u have no control over. If u were Paki, then you would side with Pakistan. This requires NO thought, just automatic, mechanical, robot like regurgitation of ``opinions.``

Heil Drumz!! I bow before your insightful words! This is the clearest, more accurate, definition of patriotism (chowk style, mob style too) I have come across.

Rsax: I found somefin better. I was chillin with the crew when allova sudden, a bunch of palestinians walked by and went into a building... Apparently some canadian MP`s were giving a speech on the horrors of the occupation. Long story sort, Palestinian gurls are BANGIN. Ima hit up mad rallies in support of Palestinian gurls and their rite to be bangin. What could be better? U even get to make fun of the whiteman.

Zafar: Its not because ur NDN, its cuz uve been brainwashed by the whiteman (happy?). Whats a transgrestite anyways?

``We have to stop pretending that human opinions are eternally sanctioned by divinity.``

Everything is a reflection of the divine, even evil. All opinions have their place in their own contexts. This sh1t cant really be described, only felt.

``Not sure what you mean by idle…as in “useless” perhaps only a Buddha could truly tell which thought facilitated samadhi and which didn’t…or perhaps none of them did…"

A LOT of things can be referred to as idle. Its more reflective of a mindset and ones intentions then its definition. To help another is not idle, but to run around talking about hate is as Idle as it gets. ``As above, so below,`` idle actions proceed idle thought. If one wants to be argumentative, he can try to shoot this down using semantics and different contexts. The means of discerning idleness are not available to the coldly rationalizing intellectual (intuition).

``What are the proper limits of control? How do you decide on them, or even find them? If the two things in life are duty and pleasure, can we say that you have a duty to your pleasure? I think yes.``

These are things which are revealed to the student based on his level of understanding. It shouldnt be talked about because many cannot handle this form of responsibility. If one is on the path, he would exercise his judgement and aquired wisdom when acting and would restrain himself when necessary. These limits are often found through intuition, or the ``vibes`` u get in every situation u find urself. One`s conscious would usually tell him if it is proper to act thus and so. Material pleasure is not an end to itself as some may think. However it would be foolish to avoid it. The wise person will seek a middle path in order to stay on the path. He will reward and punish himself through self control as he wishes. Salam.

Sadna: You said ``Its not pureminded to insist on sitting on a railway track while refusing to allow people to discuss whether trains exist.``

I said u cannot discuss being pure minded if your spewing hate. I said one who does so is ``no where near pure minded.`` Spewing hatred on someone simply because they come from a different country is the antithesis of pure mindedness.

``Abuse``? I apologize for thinking that someone who speaks on war should be able to take some INTENSITY. If u cant take this, how can u speak about missiles?

``IMO, Urdu/Arabic names of missiles with Urdu names will put Pakistani military into a greater tizzy than the missiles themselves because it will upset their fundamental operating philosophy that Muslims have to eternally fight Hindus.``

``A greater Tizzy?`` Do u even understand what ur saying? What effect would naming a missile thus and so have on the Paki military? ``Upset their philosphy``? What does that mean-in ENGLISH? You must remember that these military people hate u as much as you hate them. Both of you have been socialized like robots. Most of yours and theirs opinions are knee jerk reactions requiring little thought. Defend India, attack Pakistan and so on.

It dont matter if u spoke on launching them, that u even had the audacity to speak on missiles while never being in a war was NAIVE.

Do u justify your blind hate of pakistan with that snake analogy? Again Ill ask, what would buddha do if he were in your position? Would he trivialize war (HUMAN SUFFERING) by making ill thought out jokes about missile titles? Is it WISE to fight a war over one province? Buddha said suffering comes from DESIRE. You desire to keep this province of kashmere with the price of the death of millions (none of which will be you because you fight ur wars on an internet message board)!

``Your spewing hateful words at me and imputing motives with much less reason and with much less basis than my comments about the Pakistani ruling class will certainly let you off examining the larger issues.``

You just said a lot of nothing. Just blanket statements with zero evidence that arent fazing anything. Callin me hateful? LOL, your talking about WAR and IM hateful?

``Its much harder to take a long hard look at the rubble of Kabul for example and think what Pakistan was doing there for many years and why``

This is the weak debating tactic u were looking for. This has nothing to do with what we were discussing. You simply have this obsessive habit of mentioning pakistan in every post. Did u actually think I was gonna defend Pakistan? I am not Urstruly, My thought is not limited to political boundaries. Take that sh1t to someone else.

I will commend you for actually attempting to discuss your personal biases. There`s at least a hundred people on this page alone that are too cowardly to do what you have done. Peace.

anNy #324 On pakistan`s response to the Advani missile proposed by soysauce, you call for the ``altafhussainqaziwajidnmushybaybeeehinthaair`` missile. This I assume would be a multi-stage rocket, with altafhussain being jettisoned at 10,000 feet, Qazi Hussain at 20,000, mushybaby at 30,000. Who are what are wajid and hinthair? Also you forgot the warhead, namely that Rolls Royce of warheads, the heavy duty Nawazsharif, loaded with radioactive nihari. That`ll teach them to be nasty. And I recommend adding a fourth stage to the booster rocket, to be jettisoned at 40,000 feet, namely the benazir.

If this doesnt work, we will send out the multi-head Mullah III rocket (warhead packed with mullahs).

As a card-carrying Pakistani who lives in Pakistan (as opposed to pakistanis abroad who seem to think they have their hands on the pulse of every Pakistani in Pakistan) I can say that the blood of Kashmir doesnt flow through my blood. Ask any man/woman/child on the street and they will say the same thing. The majority of the populations of both India and Pakistan want the same things - food, clean water, shelter, access to health care, and better lives for their children. My proposition is not regurgitated rhetoric or theories, it`s actually a money spinner and a half. Lease Kashmir to the Japanese for 200 years and turn it into a huge golf course and geisha bar (the second is optional), and let the four parties (pakistanis, indians, the kashmiris, and ofcourse the japanese) benefit from it. Water to both countries will be garanteed, tourism will flourish, money will be made, and lives will be seriously improved for future generations. The only other positive result will be unemployed politicians (and ofcourse generals) who`ll need to think very hard with their seriously limited brains to come up with another serious problem....

GREEDY GENERALS:

Our Generals think that India will hand over Kashmir like cantonment board officer hands over plots to fat overfed no good generals who have not won a single war - lived on fat commissions and loot of the state - under the garb of national security. They have brought the world dangerously close to nuclear war. The terrorist training camps are fundamentally ISI appendages and the Generals are hostage to this organisation and their greed. They ousted Nawaz Sharif because they were on the verge of being cashiered.

re: DRUMZ

...drumz dude, forget all these chowk debates...at some party at the estonia house in nyc, i met the perfect babe for you...4 rings in one ear, 3 in the other, 1 at the navel, red-n-spiky hair, and a weed connoisseur as best as i could tell...says she sews her own clothes so third world labor isn`t exploited :)

DRUMZ #314

`` U actually claim to be anywhere close to pure minded? You write about making missiles with urdu names.``

I didnot claim to be pureminded. Abuse is one thing, but to put words in my mouth is plain dishonest.

Have I talked anywhere of launching missiles? IMO, Urdu/Arabic names of missiles with Urdu names will put Pakistani military into a greater tizzy than the missiles themselves because it will upset their fundamental operating philosophy that Muslims have to eternally fight Hindus.

About missiles themselves, Buddha told the snake that he shouldn`t bite. The snake tried to practice that but got severely beaten up instead. Buddha told him, I told you not to bite, I didnot tell you not to hiss.

Your spewing hateful words at me and imputing motives with much less reason and with much less basis than my comments about the Pakistani ruling class will certainly let you off examining the larger issues. I grant you the wisdom of that tactic, a common one on chowk. Its much harder to take a long hard look at the rubble of Kabul for example and think what Pakistan was doing there for many years and why.

To each his own. Namaste to you too.

To anyone else not wholly blinded by their own piety, this is a informative article about previous near-nuclear exchanges, apparently we are just reliving the whole rigmarole the 3rd or 4th time:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/382021.asp
To the brink in South Asia — again

In depth: India, Pakistan have often been on the verge of war

Kashmir is NOT worth fighting a nuclear war -- (Irfan Husain).

Here are excerpts from the latest column of Irfan Husain -- GIVING PEACE A CHANCE

....Contrary to popular wisdom, nuclear capability seems to have made the subcontinent a more dangerous place as its deterrence value appears to be encouraging adventurism on both sides.

Despite Gen Musharraf`s assurance that Pakistan is not exporting extremism to Kashmir or any other country, many world leaders, including Bush, Blair and Chirac, disagree, and all of them have urged restraint on Pakistan.

It should be possible to establish whether cross-border infiltration is taking place by patrolling the LoC.

India has rejected neutral patrolling, but an Indian reader has suggested joint patrols by Indian and Pakistani troops.

So what`s wrong with this idea? Why can`t the military commanders sit down and work out the modalities for its implementation?

Given a modicum of goodwill, tension can be lowered, and eventually, the two countries can return to serious negotiations.

But with the current level of insanity and macho swaggering on both sides, it seems that we are doomed to helplessly drift from one crisis to another until somebody finally pulls the trigger.

Surely Kashmir is not worth a nuclear holocaust.(Dawn)

In fact NOTHING IS ......

inder #307 your theory has one little problem - it is not based on realities. These individuals are historical figures with whom many (not all) pakistanis identify with (I personally have a problem with an invader of any kind, regardless of whether he is ``ours`` or ``theirs``, but that is just me). And descendants of people from these invaders tribes are very much around in Pakistan. I have been told by people from a pathan family, e.g., that Ahmed Shah Abdali was a pathan from their tribe.

For me, the Ghauri, Abdali etc. have been useful in keeping an aggressive Indian army sitting on the borders, and that is all I care about. (I am sure I have hindu ancestors - but I fail to understand what the big deal is in that one way or another).

I have no doubt these missiles were named by someone in the pakistan military as much out of identification with past muslim heroes as they were to ring psychological bells among those in India who cannot distinguish past history from today`s realities. Your post proves that whoever named these missile succeeded in ringing these psychological bells and thus got more bang for the buck on these missile.

US concerns about Musharraf mounting

From Afzal Khan

WASHINGTON — US concerns about the fate of President Gen. Parvez Musharraf are mounting as he faces diverse intense domestic and international pressures amid escalating tensions between India and Pakistan, according to US media and renowned analysts.



President Musharraf is trapped in a potentially untenable position within a wider swath of society as he struggles to accommodate demands from his restive population, his US allies and his Indian rivals, according to Los Angeles Times.



What happens next between India and Pakistan will depend heavily on what the Pakistani general decides to do, the paper quoted US officials, while saying Musharraf remains a central player in the war on terrorism and the Bush administration considers a model of moderation for the turbulent Islamic world.

And the pressures he faces over the disputed Kashmir region are far greater than those growing out of his support for the US campaign in Afghanistan.



Musharraf’s options for preventing some kind of conflict range from unappetizing to dangerous. Some could even undermine his hold on power at a time when Washington still needs his support in tracking down terrorists with the Al-Qaeda network who have evaded American forces in the region for seven months, the LAT said.

“This is the toughest test of his political life,” a senior Bush administration official said, asking to remain anonymous.



Opposition to Musharraf at home is growing. Islamic militants distributed leaflets around mosques Friday calling on Pakistanis to overthrow him because he is a “corrupt policeman” acting only on behalf of the US.

The Bush administration’s concern, however, goes beyond pressure on the Pakistani leader from militants.



“It took courage for Musharraf to acknowledge that supporting the Taliban was a failure and a strategic blunder.

But to do the same thing on his Kashmir policy may be a bridge too far,” said Ellen Laipson, president of the Henry L. Stimson Center, a Washington think tank, and former vice chairman of the National Intelligence Council.



“Kashmir is so fundamental to Pakistani political identity that it’s much harder, in terms of political stability, to walk away from Kashmir too,” Laipson said.



Kashmir has long been a professional preoccupation for Musharraf.

A hawk on security issues, he orchestrated the 1999 military incursion across the so-called Line of Control between the two sections of Kashmir when he was head of the Pakistan Army.



India and the US now demand that Musharraf act to stop the insurgency over Kashmir.

If he doesn’t end the cross-border infiltrations, he confronts the very real danger of Indian retaliation. Musharraf would then face extraordinary pressure to strike back—and risk a full-scale war.



“If the Indians do anything that embarrasses him, then he’s compelled to respond forcefully. This is the escalation scenario,” said Stephen Philip Cohen, a South Asia expert at the Brookings Institution in Washington.



Pakistan would then be engaged in a war it almost certainly could not win, because it is significantly outgunned and outmanned by India’s security forces.



Yet yielding to world pressure and opting not to respond if India took military action “would really hurt him,” Cohen said. It could well cost Musharraf one—and potentially all three—of the positions he holds as president, prime minister and army chief, he predicted.

There are even potential costs if Musharraf is seen as complying with US requests to ease back from the brink, which will be made in person this week by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and Deputy Secretary of State Richard L. Armitage.

The anti-Musharraf leaflets, distributed by the radical Muslim group Hizbul Tehreer, charged that Pakistan has been “consigned to the sidelines” by a new US friendship with India. Washington’s enemies are “now perceived to be Muslims,” the leaflets said.(Nation)