Lighting The Nuclear Fire

Fuzzy Red Lines

Nobody can predict if or when the nukes might fly



By Nisid Hajari

NEWSWEEK



http://www.msnbc.com/news/757314.asp



June 3 issue — In most conflicts, the “fog of war” usually settles in after the shooting starts. Not so in strife-torn Kashmir. There, on what might well become a nuclear battlefield, India and Pakistan know frighteningly little about each other’s most devastating weapons. Neither side really knows how many nuclear warheads the other has. Neither is sure how the other plans to deliver those weapons—or under what circumstances. To this day there are conflicting accounts of how many nuclear tests each country staged in 1998, when they sought to outdo each other with displays of their martial prowess.

THOSE UNKNOWNS NOW have terrifying implications. A million troops have been eyeballing each other across the Kashmir border—the so-called Line of Control—since January, when New Delhi threatened to retaliate for a suicide attack on the Indian Parliament by militants allegedly linked to Pakistan. Ever since another attack on an Army base in Kashmir on May 14, India has trumpeted its preparations for war: fighter squadrons and large artillery batteries have been moved to forward bases in Kashmir, warships are steaming toward the Pakistani coast, troops and supplies have been rushed north. Last week Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee told troops along the Line of Control to prepare for a “decisive battle.”







In the past the possibility that any military confrontation could quickly escalate has restrained both sides; Indian saber-rattling has generally been meant to push the United States to exert pressure on the Pakistani president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, its erstwhile ally in the war on terror. (Even now many observers think India will not launch any attack while high-level envoys—including British Foreign Minister Jack Straw and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage—are on their way to the region.) But for the first time, say both Indian and Pakistani officials, New Delhi seems confident that a limited conventional attack—most likely airstrikes or a “combined arms” assault on terrorist camps in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir—will provoke only a limited response. Some analysts also believe that India is laying plans not only to destroy training camps, but to take and hold the mountain passes through which insurgents enter Kashmir, and even possibly push far enough north to control the Indus River watershed that supplies Pakistan.











• From the origins of the India-Pakistan rivalry to its modern nuclear reality.





The problem with this logic is that India’s war aims also remain opaque. The strategic balance in South Asia has for years relied on what analysts call “ugly stability”: the threat of nuclear weapons has enforced calm between India and Pakistan, while allowing low-level violence to fester. Now, however, New Delhi may be looking to change the conflict’s unwritten rules. “Provocations that originate on the Pakistani side of the Kashmir divide... are [traditionally] not responded to in kind by the Indian armed forces,” says Michael Krepon, an expert on South Asian security issues at the Stimson Center in Washington, who just returned from meetings with senior Indian officials. “My sense is that violence across the Line of Control henceforth will be a two-way street.”

But how would Pakistan respond to an Indian attack? Neither India nor Pakistan has ever laid out specific “red lines”—the triggers for a nuclear retaliation. Islamabad describes its tipping point vaguely, as a looming collapse in the face of Indian conventional or nuclear attack: “If Pakistan’s existence is threatened, it will use nuclear weapons,” the Communications minister, retired Lt. Gen. Javed Ashraf, said last week. Even if an Indian strike were purely conventional, Pakistan, with its much smaller military and stockpile of nukes, might feel compelled to retaliate massively.





The potential for one side or the other to miscalculate is immense. Krepon of the Stimson Center recently asked Indian generals if they knew what exactly would provoke a Pakistani nuclear response. “All but one expressed confidence that they did,” he says. “But they all laid out different red lines.” If war starts, it will become all too easy to get lost in the fog.





With John Barry in Washington, Ron Moreau in Islamabad, Sudip Mazumdar in New Delhi and Carla Power in London

Re: Ras Siddiqui #19

Ras, Times of India is the most garbage newspaper I have come across anywhere in the world. This paper is an affront to journalism. Asking whether Times of India speaks the truth is like asking if a chimp talks like a human.

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/03/landesman.htm

Islamabad

A Modest Proposal From the Brigadier

What one prominent Pakistani thinks his country should do with its atomic weapons



by Peter Landesman



.....



n the center of the biggest traffic circle of every major city in Pakistan sits a craggy, Gibraltarish replica of a nameless peak in the Chagai range. This mountain is the home of Pakistan`s nuclear test site. The development, in 1998, of the ``Islamic Bomb,`` intended as a counter to India`s nuclear capability, is Pakistan`s only celebrated achievement since its formation, in 1947. The mountain replicas, about three stories tall, are surrounded by flower beds that are lovingly weeded, watered, and manicured. At dusk, when the streetlights come on, so do the mountains, glowing a weird molten yellow.

Islamabad`s monument to the atomic bomb occupies a rotary between the airport and the city center. Nearby stand models of Pakistan`s two classes of missile: Shaheen and Ghauri. The Islamabad nuclear shrine stands at a place where the city is dissolving into an incoherent edge town of shabby strip malls and empty boulevards and rows of desolate government buildings. A little farther in one comes to the gridded blocks of gated homes. The neighborhoods are called sectors. The streets are numbered, not named.

Late last year, after nearly two months in Pakistan, I paid the last of many visits to house No. 8 on street 19, sector F-8/2, a modern white mansion known as Zardari House. The house has been used by Asif Ali Zardari, the imprisoned husband of Benazir Bhutto, Pakistan`s exiled former Prime Minister. Neither Zardari nor Bhutto has been there for a long time. Zardari has been confined for five years, most recently in Attock Fort, a medieval fortress perched over the Indus River between Islamabad and Peshawar. He is charged with a slew of crimes: large-scale corruption; conspiracy in the murder of Bhutto`s brother Mir Murtaza; conspiracy to smuggle narcotics. Bhutto, who also faces corruption charges in Pakistan, lives in Dubai with their three children. Pakistan`s leader, General Pervez Musharraf, has promised to have her arrested and tried if she ever returns to Pakistan. Outside the gate to the empty Zardari House sits a man with his back to the wall, a sawed-off shotgun across his knees.

I had been going there to consult with Brigadier Amanullah, known to his friends as Aman. Aman, in his early fifties and now retired, is lithe and gentle-natured and seemed to me slightly depressed. He works in a small office behind Zardari House, where, as the secretary to Benazir Bhutto in Islamabad, he coordinates Bhutto`s efforts to return to Pakistan and regain its prime ministership. He also keeps in close touch with old colleagues, who include many powerful people in Pakistan. Aman was once the chief of Pakistan`s military intelligence in Sind Province, which borders India. Pakistan`s biggest city and a cultural center, Karachi, is in Sind. That put Aman squarely in the middle of things, his finger near many sorts of buttons. Today Aman is believed to act as Bhutto`s liaison with the armed forces, and he maintains contacts with serving army officers, including senior generals. When I wanted to speak to someone in the Pakistani government, I asked Aman. When I wanted to speak to someone in the Taliban, or in military intelligence, or in the political opposition, I asked Aman. His replies were mumbled and monosyllabic. He never offered opinions. He would simply hear me out and, most times, tip his head and say, ``Why not?`` Within an hour after Aman and I parted, I would receive a phone call from his secretary. References would be made to ``that man`` or ``that matter,`` and I would be given a phone number and a time to call. Having spoken with Aman, I was always expected.

On the day of my final visit Aman seemed more sullen than usual. He ushered me into a room adjoining the office. The room was long and spare. There was an oil painting on the far wall. The other walls were empty and lined with cushioned chairs. Aman sat across from me. We had tea and spoke about the latest events.

As we were wrapping up our conversation, I looked at the oil painting. It was a strange picture, a horizontal landscape about four feet across, with overtones of socialist realism. In the foreground a youthful Benazir Bhutto stood in heroic pose on an escarpment overlooking the featureless grid of Islamabad. Beside her stood her father, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, a Prime Minister who in 1977 was ousted in a coup and two years later hanged. On the other side of Bhutto was Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the long-dead founding father of Pakistan. Their postures were exalted, their expressions a combination of pride and awe. Jinnah`s arm pointed to the vast plain beyond the city, where a rocket was lifting out of billowing clouds of vapor and fire into the sky.

Aman noticed me looking at the painting and followed my gaze. I asked him if Benazir Bhutto had commissioned it, and Aman said no. He told me that one day when she was still Prime Minister, an unknown man, an ordinary Pakistani citizen, had come to the gate of Zardari House with the picture and told Aman that he`d painted it for the Prime Minister and wanted to present it to her as a gift. Aman said that he was immediately transfixed by the painting. He called to Bhutto inside the house, but she refused to come down to see the man. Aman was persistent, and eventually she came down.

``I insisted Benazir accept it as a gift,`` Aman told me.

We both looked up at the painting in silence. ``A rocket ship heading to the moon?`` I asked.

Aman tipped his head to the side. A smirk tugged at the corners of his mouth. ``No,`` he said. ``A nuclear warhead heading to India.``

I thought he was making a joke. Then I saw he wasn`t. I thought of the shrines to Pakistan`s nuclear-weapons site, prominently displayed in every city. I told Aman that I was disturbed by the ease with which Pakistanis talk of nuclear war with India.

Aman shook his head. ``No,`` he said matter-of-factly. ``This should happen. We should use the bomb.``

``For what purpose?`` He didn`t seem to understand my question. ``In retaliation?`` I asked.

``Why not?``

``Or first strike?``

``Why not?``

I looked for a sign of irony. None was visible. Rocking his head side to side, his expression becoming more and more withdrawn, Aman launched into a monologue that neither of us, I am sure, knew was coming:

``We should fire at them and take out a few of their cities—Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta,`` he said. ``They should fire back and take Karachi and Lahore. Kill off a hundred or two hundred million people. They should fire at us and it would all be over. They have acted so badly toward us; they have been so mean. We should teach them a lesson. It would teach all of us a lesson. There is no future here, and we need to start over. So many people think this. Have you been to the villages of Pakistan, the interior? There is nothing but dire poverty and pain. The children have no education; there is nothing to look forward to. Go into the villages, see the poverty. There is no drinking water. Small children without shoes walk miles for a drink of water. I go to the villages and I want to cry. My children have no future. None of the children of Pakistan have a future. We are surrounded by nothing but war and suffering. Millions should die away.``

``Pakistan should fire pre-emptively?`` I asked.

Aman nodded.

``And you are willing to see your children die?``

``Tens of thousands of people are dying in Kashmir, and the only superpower says nothing,`` Aman said. ``America has sided with India because it has interests there.`` He told me he was willing to see his children be killed. He repeated that they didn`t have any future—his children or any other children.

I asked him if he thought he was alone in his thoughts, and Aman made it clear to me that he was not.

``Believe me,`` he went on, ``If I were in charge, I would have already done it.``

Aman stopped, as though he`d stunned even himself. Then he added, with quiet forcefulness, ``Before I die, I hope I should see it.``

ras #19

... this is the kind of doodoo that you find regularly in our urdu press along with reports of alien abductions and princess di sightings ..... i seriously doubt if the dawn or news would publish such stuff .... hopefully, this indicates that our english readers are a little bit more intelligent and less odiferous than those who read the times of india ......... on the other hand, it is scary to think that there are fools on the other side who might be crazier than our own suicidal jihadis .........

....... normally i don`t read the swahili press from the wrong side of the border, but in times like this my curiosity gets in the way of good taste .......in a way it is heartening to note that, inspite of their claims of being a real country with civilization and deodrant, they are not a whole lot different from our own bantuland .......equally pathetic, i must say ....however, it is scary to think that we have fools and imbeciles on both sides playing with matches ........

..... god help us - even though in the bigger scheme of things the stanley cup is more important than some unwashed natives blowing themselves up ..... let`s take care of the annoying avalanche first - the horrible hindoos can wait ............

Dear Dr. Hoodbhoy:

Presently in India, there is a leadership vacuum. The best leaders - Naidu and Manmohan Singh - are outside the coalition. This presents a great opportunity for President Musharraf. Agra was just the glimpse of Indian system. He should remember, how he was able to capture the media, and mind space of Indians. He can articulate and sell to billions, a grand South Asian vision. If he does so, he would realize, Kashmir (I am a proud Kashmiri too), is a very very small part of the overall South Asian equation. He can also stop putting shines on Gauri and Ghaznavi. He must realize that no self-respecting Indian would give into this kind of blackmail, because 1-billion people in that part of the world see it as pure and simple blackmail. I am sure Pakistan has its own exigencies to look after, but it must understand the psyche of 1-billion neighbors, because in that neighborhood Pakistan must live and prosper.

The freedom in South Asia was led by British trained lawyers. Let new breed of professional South Asian entreprenuers, and not military generals and not corrupt politicians, lead the next change. The cooperation among these entreprenuers in Silicon Valley provides a glimpse of what can be achieved, if these entreprenuers are left alone and given the basic tools and environment to practice their art.

President Musharaff can do it, Manmohan Singh can do it, Naidu can do it. Other than a handful, the present breed of politicians in India emerged out of the vacuum, and corrupts and criminals got the opportunity. Many leaders even have criminal base to grab power. The scene is similar to the robber-barons of early development of American economic and political scene.

I do not believe BJP will come back to power in India, unless Pakistan blinks and in the process, gets BJP re-elected. So far, President Mushrraf has controlled Pakistani generals` testosterones quite well.

BJP`s image is too tarnished in Gujrat. The only way, BJP can wash away all the Muslim blood before next election, is if Pakistan continues to give BJP leadership a reason for rhetorics, which after a while becomes believable political propoganda. Pakistan must also understand that it is India and not just BJP, which wants cross-border terrorism stopped. Pakistan can call it whatever it wishes, but it must understand that is having great difficulty sellling it as a freedom struggle to other world leaders.

I also believe that Pakistani leadership must realize, that even President Bush, the leader of world`s most powerful democracy, does not have the power and will to break a poor man`s - however corrupt - experiment with democracy that India is, which now has become the world`s largest democracy. This democratic genie is too much out of the box. In my discussions, the U.S. think tanks with access to the corridors of power, clearly say that Indian experiment with the demoracy needs the support to evolve, and be further built and propogated in the third world. May be, this unspoken doctrine that troubles Pakistani leaders who hear this democratic mantra during their visit to Washington. And that worried President Musharraf into holding a referandum. This democratic doctrine is so powerful that it makes nuclear deterrants miniscule. Just add economic development of 6% per year by 1-billion people, the mixture is very potent. It seems like Indian elephant is on the move, and could easily intoxicate corrupt and criminal elements in politics. On the other hand Pakistan in peace could achieve what it could never achieve through three wars and Kargil misadventure. The supply line to Indian economic engine would pass through Pakistan. No one need to say any more than this.

On the humorous side, if Pakistanis can act in India at such micro-levels, and if Indians can act in Pakistan at similar micro-levels, to create trouble in each others` country then may be Pakistani Home Ministry should have Indians and Indian Home Ministry should have Pakistanis. May be that is how the cooperation should start.

I am absolutely certain that no leader in South Asia, can defy the world and press THAT trigger. The world reaction to 3-million deaths and suffering would be so swift and overwhelming, that it would be very hard to imagine let alone factor into Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) policy about what will emerge is almost impossible to imagine.

Pakistani visionaries and successful entreprenuers that I have talked in Silicon Valley are clear about cooperation among South Asian nations. The cooperation must start first, otherwise defective industrial base develops and soon people ask for protection in the name of nationalism.

President Musharraf is wrong in his interview to Washington Post that their are only two options - capitulation or India changing its attitude. Indian attitude, like Pakistani attitude is formulated by a few and given shape by - may be the generals in Pakistan, and by the present breed of politicians in India. This needs changing, which implies having a system to bring newer people in power.

There is a quote that GDP of a handful of NRI`s is same as that of entire India. I am sure similar coorelation exist among NRP`s and Pakistanis in Pakistan. An examination reveals that NRIs (and possibly NRPs too) had access to superior tools (capital, technology) and environment (efficient markets). In increasingly greater global world, the access to superior tools and environment is also coming within the reach of Pakistanis and Indian in their respective countries. The leadership vision should accept this chance, and accelerate it more. India has world`s seventh largest economic base, but the productivity is not even in the charts. The flow of capital (banking system and financial markets), the flow of raw material and products are frought with inefficiency. Can you imagine the economic prosperity that can be unleashed, if the roads, banks and communication are made more efficient for the benefit of the seventh largest industrial base.

The talk of war, or talk of nuclear fear are waste of Capable Grey Matter on all side of the border. The first time I heard of AKHAND BHARAT was from a Pakistani friend, after I came out of India. This name more than the concept fascinated me for a few days. Later I used it as a joke. Only jokers believe in it on both side of the border. On side, these jokers create fear and hysteria, on the other side they attract a hearty laugh.

Thank you.

ANIL

Pakistan warned to stop militants

From combined dispatches

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Pakistan yesterday and early today test-fired two missiles capable of dropping nuclear warheads on key Indian cities, stoking tension that threatens to erupt into war between the neighboring nations.

Russian President Vladimir Putin, who said after the first test that it added anxiety to an already tense climate, offered to mediate talks between the leaders of the South Asian adversaries during a summit both countries plan to attend next month.

President Bush, speaking after a summit with Mr. Putin in Russia, cautioned against warlike rhetoric and called on Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf to stop militants from carrying out raids into Indian-controlled territory.

``It`s very important that President Musharraf does what he said he was going to do in his speech on terrorism, and that is to stop the incursions across the border,`` Mr. Bush said in St. Petersburg, forcefully reminding Pakistan`s leader that he vowed in January to crack down on militants. ``We are deeply concerned about the rhetoric.``

India blames Pakistan for backing raids by Islamic guerrillas fighting Indian forces in the Muslim-majority state of Jammu and Kashmir.

The two countries have massed a million troops on their mutual border, backed by missile batteries, tanks and fighter planes, since a deadly raid on India`s Parliament in December. New Delhi said Pakistan-based militants were responsible.

Gen. Musharraf declared the first test yesterday of the medium-range surface-to-surface Ghauri missile a success.

``God is greatest,`` he intoned three times in an address to Islamic scholars broadcast on national television on the anniversary of the birth of Islam`s Prophet Mohammed. ``We don`t want war, but we are not afraid of war.``

The firing of the Ghauri missile, which also can carry a conventional warhead, was the first in what Pakistan said would be a series of tests lasting until Tuesday. Pakistan has said the tests are not related to tension with India.

The missile`s 950-mile range puts India`s heavily populated capital, New Delhi, and financial center, Bombay, along with hundreds of millions of people, within striking distance.

But India, which also described the test as routine, downplayed the exercises.

``We don`t take test firing of missiles by Pakistan seriously,`` the Press Trust of India news agency quoted Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee as saying in the northern town of Manali, where he is on a break until Wednesday.

However, Pakistan went ahead today and successfully test-fired a second ballistic missile, an official statement said. The missile was a newly developed short-range surface-to-surface Hatf-3 (Ghaznavi), the statement said. It was the first test of this second type of missile, which has a range of up to 180 miles.

But the timing of the missile tests, Pakistan`s first since 1999, is a defiant gesture that added to world alarm about the situation on the subcontinent.

``Of course the testing, while there is escalating tension, has really aggravated the situation and I`m concerned about that,`` Mr. Putin said.

Mr. Putin said he hoped Gen. Musharraf and Mr. Vajpayee could sort out differences at the regional conference in Kazakhstan next month. India and Pakistan are scheduled to attend the summit meeting of the Council on Cooperation and Confidence Measures in Asia to be held June 3-5 in Almaty, Kazakhstan.

Pakistan welcomed Mr. Putin`s initiative.

``Pakistan has all along been pleading for settlement of all issues with India through dialogue,`` Foreign Ministry spokesman Aziz Ahmad Khan told the state-run news agency Associated Press of Pakistan.

Indian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Nirupama Rao said Mr. Vajpayee would attend the summit and hold talks with Mr. Putin. But, she added, ``There is nothing to suggest that Vajpayee and Musharraf will meet directly.``

India repeatedly has rejected Pakistan`s call for peace talks, saying it would not do so until Islamabad ends the cross-border insurgency of Pakistan-based Islamic militants.

Yesterday, Indian and Pakistani troops exchanged mortar and small-arms fire along the cease-fire line that divides Kashmir between the two nations, killing at least three suspected Islamic militants and two Indian soldiers, an Indian army spokesman said.

The two sides have traded heavy fire across the Kashmir frontier for more than a week, wounding or killing dozens of civilians and soldiers on both sides. Thousands of civilians have fled front-line villages.

World leaders have been scrambling to avert a war between the nuclear-armed rivals, which fought three wars since independence from Britain in 1947. Tensions escalated last week after suspected Pakistan-based Islamic militants raided an army camp in Indian-controlled Kashmir, killing 34.

Mr. Vajpayee said New Delhi`s patience was running out and urged world leaders to step up pressure on Pakistan to act against militants. The Indian prime minister said he had written to Mr. Bush, Mr. Putin and French President Jacques Chirac calling for action.

The European Union, Britain and the United States have begun a diplomatic offensive, with a flurry of visits and phone calls to Mr. Vajpayee, Gen. Musharraf and their top aides.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20020526-26898877.htm

Prof. you must have read prof.OPPEINHEIMER quote fromSanskrit about the Atomic Explosion as viewed by him.......

In URDU it is said Choote(ANTS) ke marne ke din jab aate haine ,tou usse Par(WINGS) nikal aate haine aur Sheher ke our Bhagte hai .

INDIA IS VERY CARELESS, CALLOUS& CAVALLIER ABOUT THE NUCLEAR WAR.THEY ARE FOOLS WHO RUSH IN WHERE ANGELS FEAR TO TREAD

May be its time for India to get her death wish since there has been so much talk & activities about DEATH & Mayheim starting with GujjRIOT by GUJJURATS

Real meaning of Vinash kale vipareeth buddhi!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

One is under the influence of `wrong` intelligence

just before destruction.

Or to paraphrase:

cause of destruction is wrong intelligence.

. ``vipareet`` means ``wrong``,

``anti`` .. et

So what Sanskrit is Indias language & This saying is from Vedas in Sanskrit ....

in URDU it is said Choote ke marne ke din jab aate haine tou usse Par nikal aate haine aur Sheher ke our Bhagte hai

May be its time for India to get her death wish since there has been so much talk & activities about Death & Mayheim starting with GujjRIOT by GUJJURATS

Pak. test-fires Ghauri missile

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Fhttp://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/2002052603660100.htm

Pak. test-fires Ghauri missile

A Pakistan Television image showing the launching of the Ghauri missile on Saturday. ? AP

ISLAMABAD MAY 25. Pakistan successfully test-fired a nuclear-capable missile today.

``Pakistan today carried out a successful test-fire of its indigenously developed medium range surface-to-surface ballistic missile Hatf-V (Ghauri),`` an official statement said.

``This was the third test of the Ghauri missile system. According to the data collected from the test, all the design parameters have been successfully validated. The Ghauri can carry warheads with great accuracy,`` the statement said, adding that Pakistan`s last missile tests were in April 1999.

The Pakistan President, Pervez Musharraf, ``has congratulated the scientists, engineers and all others involved with the programme on their outstanding success, which is a source of pride for the nation.

``The series of tests are a part of the research and development of Pakistan`s indigenous missile programme, which is an essential element of Pakistan`s policy of maintaining minimum deterrence in the interest of our security.

``It demonstrates Pakistan`s determination to defend itself, strengthen national security and consolidate strategic balance in the region,`` the statement said.

The missile was fired in northern Pakistan, a security officer said. ``The Hatf-V can be tipped with any warhead. Any ballistic missile can carry a nuclear warhead.``

The missiles have a range of between 1,500 and 2,000 km.

http://www.newindpress.com/Newsitems.asp?ID=IEL20020525151310&Title=B+R+E+A+K+I+N+G++++N+E+W+S&rLink=0

Pak has developed two types of N-arms: Report

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PTI

NEW YORK: Pakistan has developed two types of nuclear arms while hundreds of scientists are labouring to design nuclear missiles in the Kahuta Khan Research Laboratories, a media report here said on Saturday.

``One is a smaller weapon that can be delivered by an aircraft. The other is bigger. One that was tested can be easily deployed on our Ghauri missiles,`` Abdul Qadeer Khan, director of the Kahuta plant and the man regarded as the architect of the country`s nuclear and missiles programmes, told The New York Times.

American intelligence agencies found ``disturbing evidence that the Pakistani were preparing their arsenals for possible deployment,`` according to a recent paper by Bruce O. Riedel, a former member of the Clinton administration`s National Security Council.

Despite claims by Pakistan that the late version of Ghauri missile was indigenously designed, the paper quoted experts and senior retired Pakistani officials as saying that Islamabad in fact obtained assistance from North Korea.

Under heavy pressure from Washington not to sell missiles to Pakistan, China instead reportedly financed North Korea to develop Pakistan`s missile programme, the daily said.

North Korea, in turn, agreed to provide Pakistan with components from its Nodong missile line, based on an old Soviet Scud. Pakistan was also assisted in its nuclear and missile programmes by Iran and Syria, it added.

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S

indications are there will be NO WAR between the two adversaries -- not even the

exciting ‘conventional’ one -- drat!!

The pathetic subcontinentals may be Iodine-deficient cretins -- they are definitely NOT self drowning lemmings.

those of us drooling and praying for the nuclear winter -- can go on praying till eternity -- the nuclear hell has no chance of freezing any time soon -- the West will see to it.

Musharraf will dismantle terrorist launching pads in Pakistan`s side of Kashmir -- under the direct supervision of US, EU and UK -- with continued monitoring of the LOC by the NATO countries.

After Pakistan`s all party elections -- with a non belligerent all powerful civilian Prime Minister in control -- and the gunman Moosharraf as President Tarar minus the beard -- with Vegepie dozing off on the opposition benches -- India and Pakistan will usher in the new era of friendship and cooperation -- travelling together on the IT superhighway -- with Kashmir somwhere --neeme darooN, neeme burooN -- living ``happily ever after``.



From the faalnama of hasan -- the permanently `delusional peacenik`.

Reply #: 10 cutandpaste

Patten is a known imperialist. Few people would know when he was Governor of Hong Kong entrusted to oversee its transition to Chinese rule, China had been so infuriated with his attitude that they had refused to accept Patten`s position as an accredited negotiator on Britain`s behalf and declined to deal with him. It was a slap on Patten`s face but he had continued with his governorship as if nothing had happened, and did nothing towards damage control. He was too conceited to do that. The Chinese as a result continued unilaterally in their preperations. In the end Patten sailed away with pomp & ceremony with nothing to show for his assignment, which was to win some concessions for the Hong Kong people before the handover. Many people in Hong Kong blame Patten for abandoning them for personal pride.

It`s a pity Patten has been chosen by the EU as a diplomat between India and Pakistan. Patten isn`t even a diplomat.

Zeemax

Pervez sahib: Good article. While I think that the return of democracy, and peace with India, is job 1 for Pakistan, I also believe that in the current crisis Musharaff has behaved more responsibly than the Indian politicians. On the Indian side, we have Vajpayee all but declaring war by calling for a ``decisive victory`` against a nuclearized Pakistan - and then backing off two days later with all sorts of vague talk. On the Pakistan side, Musharaff did the right thing by conducting missile tests to ensure that there is no doubt about Pakistan`s capacity and intentions. Wars have historically been the result of a misunderstanding of the enemy`s intent and/or capacity: The Korean War, I have read, started because the US did not make clear to N. Korea that it would not tolerate invasion of the south. WWII started because Hitler thought he would get away with Poland the way he got away with the Anschluss and in the Sudetenland. And so on.

temporal #20 you write ``…that is not my islam…or yours i suspect…" Agreed. I think the problem is based on incorrect use of terminology. The religious parties and jehadists in Pakistan have nothing to do with religion. These are simply individuals who have ambitions of becoming somebody. And do not have the stamina for honest hard work that is required to be somebody in society. So, they try to take shortcuts. ``Bandits`` is the term that is normally applied to such individuals I believe. And it is time the government stamped them out rather than pandering to them.

bluenoon26 #48
`` Lives are continuously being lost in India. Not in Pakistan.``

The Pakistani elite/ruling class donot particularly care about Indians dying, its only when Indians object to being killed that there is this nuclear war hysteria raised by them. The threat of nuclear war is all from the Pakistani side as India has declared a no-first-use policy. Pakistani elite/ruling class donot care even if other Pakistanis die, as long as the dead Pakistanis are of a different class. 60,000 Pakistanis are said to have fought in Afghanistan(Ahmed Rashid), what to speak to those being sent to their deaths in Kashmir. Did you hear any uproar?

The Pakistani elite/ruling class is worried because they may have to either pay for or die now for their policies as they got used to expecting others to die for years.

Professor Sahib

Now a time has come in the freedom movement for Kashmir that everything from here is irreversible; no amount of action or words can undo what has done by the people of Kashmir who have laid down the lives of 80,000-100,000 of them just for one cause-the freedom. Now it does not matter whether Paksitan remains in the picture or not-all roads lead to independence. That is the ultimate eventuality. The limited or unlimited wars, the rapes, declaring terrorists or freedom fighters, has no meaning now. Especially after 9/11, nothing has been more clearer-that the world is headed by the greatest immoral power that there ever was. And Kashmiris know it very well too. They know the limitations of Paksitan and they know that they are on their own. The rest of the world has given them a cold shoulder just because they are Muslims-And they know that the rest of the world, especially, the champions of human rights and democarcy, value the blood of their children and their women, their sons, their daughters cheaper than that of animals. They know that there is no United Nations to deliver them justice. There are no International Criminal Courts who would indict the murderers of their newborns. THere are no Amnesty Internationals who could give their daughters amnesty from the rapists of Hindu army; and by God they know that it is just God whom they can look upto and trust now. So in this world, which is so unjust, so cruel, so cold, so callous what do they care if the whole goddamned planet turns into a nuclear apocalypse. Do you have an answer to that? Prof. Sahib it does not matter if Paksitan remains in picture or not. Now it is either freedom or death.

No matter what Paksitan does, it is not doing enough to save the lives of Kashmiris. Our first and foremost duty is to the humanity itself if we are human. Paksitan is on winning side because people always win; they have always won since the beginning of time no matter how strong their oppressor was-people always win.

And I never understand the logic of your ilk. Suppose Paksitan backs down completely and withdraw its support from Kashmiris (i.e. like the rest of the world who are enjoying this murder of Kashmiris like romans used to enjoy murder and mayhem in their arenas) and something happens in Kashmir and India, what are the guarantees that Indians will not blame Paksitan. What are the guarantees? They dont let independent observers to monitor situation in Kashmir? So what are the guarantees? None. right? So Paksitan is doing whatever is right, that is giving moral and diplomatic support to Kashmiri freedom fighters. Only a person has to be as dumb as a Professor of Physics to think that it is somehow possible to sneak men and material into Kashmir with 700000 army watching the border. Understand the Hindu`s game. They are not after Kashmir, they are after you and your home where you will be sleeping tonight without a worry on your mind that no Hindu soldier will torture your teenage son to death or you will come home next day to find out that a bunch of Hindu soldiers have stripped you off your human dignity.

Re: Professor Hoodbhoy

Interesting article. The major flaw with this article was that it was relying on rationality to prevail in South Asia in order to avoid a war.

The problem is that Indians and Pakistanis are an emotional people and they would not know what rationality is, even if some one showed it to them with a flashlight!

Besides war is good for the economy. After India and Pakistan have erdicated each other like the vermin they are, some one will have to rebuild this axis of stupidity - India and Pakistan and they will do a better job.

Hell, war will take care of the population problem and it will surely end the evil of poverty in South Asia. After a good little nuclear war and a rest period of about 10,000 years, the soil would have re-generated to allow some basic cultivation. Maybe, the exposure to the nuclear radition will improve our DNA sequence and the next generation of Indian and Pakistani mutants will have an instinct to avoid any future wars.

Dear Professor sahib, there is no sense running scared from war; buy your a good bottle of scotch and find yourself a morally loose woman and enjoy the remaining moments of twilight in South Asia.

Hell, let the morons kill each other - my philosophy is that if some one wants to hang themselves, all you do is give them an enough lenght of rope and sit back and enjoy the show! They will hang themselves - hey, where there is a will, there is a way! LOL

A war is good idea; it always is and all this garbage arguing why it should not happen is nothing more than intellectual masterbation! It only releases the pressure for a moment, but does not solve anything! Hell! Let war come - it can be no worse than the peace which has existed between India and Pakistan since 1947.

Hell...I rather burn out than fade out!

Ciao

Cut n Paste..

What a stupid man that Brigadier...!

Pakistan`s real true enemy!

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