Lighting The Nuclear Fire
Pervez Hoodbhoy May 25, 2002
#81 Posted by jay on May 27, 2002 12:12:37 pm
NEED OF THE HOUR,
It is no more the kashmir issue, it is the question of containing the jihadists. Paki jihadists were in afghanistan, they are in the philippines, at last time has come to get rid of them from the womb, pakistan. If it is not done now it will become more costly to destroy later. Not many times does a nation have to answer the call of the mankind.
It is no more the kashmir issue, it is the question of containing the jihadists. Paki jihadists were in afghanistan, they are in the philippines, at last time has come to get rid of them from the womb, pakistan. If it is not done now it will become more costly to destroy later. Not many times does a nation have to answer the call of the mankind.
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#82 Posted by DRUMZ on May 27, 2002 12:12:37 pm
urstruly / sadna / bluenoon / jay / waheed etc...
No intelligent person would ever spend time arguing about something over which he has no control. If someone honestly believed that kashmeris should get independence, he would go over there with a rifle or a book and get it himself.
Only an armchair political fool would bother discussing this issue on the internet. I laff every time one of you uses the word `war.` You actually have the audacity to play with the lives of others while u hide behind computer screens?
Its funny cuz in real life ALL of you would run like cowards from any fight, and your here discussing war. Your not ready to die, or kill, you people are as pathetic as your countries.
Fukk. u dont know how hard i wanna bring it to you all. If only u couldnt hide behind ur god damn computer screens.
No intelligent person would ever spend time arguing about something over which he has no control. If someone honestly believed that kashmeris should get independence, he would go over there with a rifle or a book and get it himself.
Only an armchair political fool would bother discussing this issue on the internet. I laff every time one of you uses the word `war.` You actually have the audacity to play with the lives of others while u hide behind computer screens?
Its funny cuz in real life ALL of you would run like cowards from any fight, and your here discussing war. Your not ready to die, or kill, you people are as pathetic as your countries.
Fukk. u dont know how hard i wanna bring it to you all. If only u couldnt hide behind ur god damn computer screens.
#83 Posted by Ralph on May 27, 2002 12:12:37 pm
Why is a hue and cry being raised if India retalitates to a war Pakistan has been fighting against India for twenty years? Pakistanis threaten to use the nuclear bomb if India crosses the Line of Control but Pakistan has been crossing it for twenty years. Nuclear blackmail can`t be accepted. India should deal with this country once and for all.
#84 Posted by cutandpaste on May 27, 2002 12:12:37 pm
May 27, 2002
Pakistan`s arms race has left both sides no room for error
From Zahid Hussain in Islamabad
NEWS that Pakistan has been working flat out for more than three years to produce weapons-grade uranium merely supplements the reasons why the world should be intensely nervous about the confrontation between Islamabad and Delhi.
The two capitals have none of the safeguards that America and the Soviet Union established to prevent a nuclear holocaust during the Cold War.
They are linked by no working hotlines. The warning time — from launching to impact — is not more than five minutes. There is no room at all for a mistake or a misjudgment.
The two states became open nuclear weapon nations after they carried out test explosions in May 1998, and both have developed missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads.
Estimates of the number of warheads each can command vary widely. Jane’s Defence Weekly maintains that Pakistan could have as many as 150 warheads against an Indian arsenal of 200 to 250. The Washington-based Institute for Science and International Security says that India probably has 50 to 100 plutonium-core nuclear warheads, and the Pakistanis 30 to 50 of highly enriched uranium.
Through its accelerated programme Pakistan is believed to have developed extra warheads over the last few months. Each was probably around 15 kilotonnes, equivalent to the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima, a physicist from the institute said.
Pakistan launched its nuclear programme in 1972 when the then President, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, announced his plans to develop atomic weapons at a secret meetings of scientists and top civil and military officials, just months after the country suffered a humiliating defeat in its war with India. The decision was driven by fears of Indian domination and a desire for prominence in the Islamic world.
India’s test explosion in 1974 gave further impetus to Pakistan’s plan for nuclearisation.
Security concerns were primary, but not the sole factor. Bhutto’s vision of an “Islamic bomb” also fuelled Islamabad’s nuclear ambition.
As early as 1975 Pakistan began clandestinely to acquire hardware and technology for the sophisticated centrifuges required. Through smuggling and black-market channels, Islamabad obtained the hardware for building a uranium enrichment plant in Kahuta, near Islamabad.
Most of the equipment was acquired from western European countries. From 1977 to 1980 Pakistan reportedly smuggled an entire plant for converting uranium powder into uranium hexafluoride, the material used as the feed for the Kahuta plant.
By the end of 1984 Pakistan had crossed the “red line” in successful uranium enrichment.
US intelligence concluded in 1986 that Kahuta had acquired nominal capability sufficient to produce enough weapons-grade material to build several bombs per year. The Pakistani nuclear weapon was based on a Chinese design and was more advanced than the first American nuclear device.
India’s nuclear intention became clear by the 1950s when Washington sought to check Indian production of thorium, an element central to the country’s work with fissionable uranium.
India exploded its first nuclear device in 1974. World reaction was mild.
The former Soviet Union helped India’s nuclear programme by providing two reactors. According to one report Moscow secretly sold about 100 tonnes of heavy water for the reactors.
India has since declared a policy of no first use of atomic weapons, but Pakistan has not forsworn such a step. Miriam Rajkumar, an Indian analyst at Washington’s Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said: “This is Pakistan’s trump card.”
A Pakistani scientist said that the latest series of missile tests underscored that the country had the means to penetrate Indian defences, and that it could use nuclear weapon if its survival was threatened.
In Pakistan the military controls the nuclear trigger. President Musharraf, who is also the country’s military commander-in-chief, is the head of the country’s command and control system. Under pressure from the United States Pakistan in 2000 reorganised and outlined its nuclear system.
The control of nuclear keys in India is with the democratically elected government.
The most frightening delusion, defence analysts say, is India’s under-estimation of Pakistan’s nuclear capability. “Although Pakistan’s nuclear tests had dispelled earlier scepticism, senior Indian military and political leaders continue to express doubts on the operational capability and useability of the Pakistani arsenal,” a Pakistani analyst said.
According to defence experts in Pakistan the nuclear warheads are not permanently fixed to their delivery systems. The warheads and missiles are kept in six separate locations.
That provides a greater safety to the country’s nuclear weapon system, a defence analyst said. “But the entire process of fitting the warheads on the delivery system does not take more than 72 hours,” he added.
Sunday Times, UK
Pakistan`s arms race has left both sides no room for error
From Zahid Hussain in Islamabad
NEWS that Pakistan has been working flat out for more than three years to produce weapons-grade uranium merely supplements the reasons why the world should be intensely nervous about the confrontation between Islamabad and Delhi.
The two capitals have none of the safeguards that America and the Soviet Union established to prevent a nuclear holocaust during the Cold War.
They are linked by no working hotlines. The warning time — from launching to impact — is not more than five minutes. There is no room at all for a mistake or a misjudgment.
The two states became open nuclear weapon nations after they carried out test explosions in May 1998, and both have developed missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads.
Estimates of the number of warheads each can command vary widely. Jane’s Defence Weekly maintains that Pakistan could have as many as 150 warheads against an Indian arsenal of 200 to 250. The Washington-based Institute for Science and International Security says that India probably has 50 to 100 plutonium-core nuclear warheads, and the Pakistanis 30 to 50 of highly enriched uranium.
Through its accelerated programme Pakistan is believed to have developed extra warheads over the last few months. Each was probably around 15 kilotonnes, equivalent to the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima, a physicist from the institute said.
Pakistan launched its nuclear programme in 1972 when the then President, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, announced his plans to develop atomic weapons at a secret meetings of scientists and top civil and military officials, just months after the country suffered a humiliating defeat in its war with India. The decision was driven by fears of Indian domination and a desire for prominence in the Islamic world.
India’s test explosion in 1974 gave further impetus to Pakistan’s plan for nuclearisation.
Security concerns were primary, but not the sole factor. Bhutto’s vision of an “Islamic bomb” also fuelled Islamabad’s nuclear ambition.
As early as 1975 Pakistan began clandestinely to acquire hardware and technology for the sophisticated centrifuges required. Through smuggling and black-market channels, Islamabad obtained the hardware for building a uranium enrichment plant in Kahuta, near Islamabad.
Most of the equipment was acquired from western European countries. From 1977 to 1980 Pakistan reportedly smuggled an entire plant for converting uranium powder into uranium hexafluoride, the material used as the feed for the Kahuta plant.
By the end of 1984 Pakistan had crossed the “red line” in successful uranium enrichment.
US intelligence concluded in 1986 that Kahuta had acquired nominal capability sufficient to produce enough weapons-grade material to build several bombs per year. The Pakistani nuclear weapon was based on a Chinese design and was more advanced than the first American nuclear device.
India’s nuclear intention became clear by the 1950s when Washington sought to check Indian production of thorium, an element central to the country’s work with fissionable uranium.
India exploded its first nuclear device in 1974. World reaction was mild.
The former Soviet Union helped India’s nuclear programme by providing two reactors. According to one report Moscow secretly sold about 100 tonnes of heavy water for the reactors.
India has since declared a policy of no first use of atomic weapons, but Pakistan has not forsworn such a step. Miriam Rajkumar, an Indian analyst at Washington’s Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said: “This is Pakistan’s trump card.”
A Pakistani scientist said that the latest series of missile tests underscored that the country had the means to penetrate Indian defences, and that it could use nuclear weapon if its survival was threatened.
In Pakistan the military controls the nuclear trigger. President Musharraf, who is also the country’s military commander-in-chief, is the head of the country’s command and control system. Under pressure from the United States Pakistan in 2000 reorganised and outlined its nuclear system.
The control of nuclear keys in India is with the democratically elected government.
The most frightening delusion, defence analysts say, is India’s under-estimation of Pakistan’s nuclear capability. “Although Pakistan’s nuclear tests had dispelled earlier scepticism, senior Indian military and political leaders continue to express doubts on the operational capability and useability of the Pakistani arsenal,” a Pakistani analyst said.
According to defence experts in Pakistan the nuclear warheads are not permanently fixed to their delivery systems. The warheads and missiles are kept in six separate locations.
That provides a greater safety to the country’s nuclear weapon system, a defence analyst said. “But the entire process of fitting the warheads on the delivery system does not take more than 72 hours,” he added.
Sunday Times, UK
#85 Posted by cutandpaste on May 27, 2002 12:12:37 pm
12 Million Could Die at Once in an India-Pakistan Nuclear War
By THOM SHANKER
ASHINGTON, May 26 — An American intelligence assessment, completed this week as tensions between India and Pakistan intensified, warns that a full-scale nuclear exchange between the two rivals could kill up to 12 million people immediately and injure up to 7 million, Pentagon officials say.
Even a ``more limited`` nuclear war — as measured in number of warheads — would have cataclysmic results, overwhelming hospitals across Asia and requiring vast foreign assistance, particularly from the United States, to battle radioactive contamination, famine and disease, officials said.
``The humanitarian crisis that would result would be so great that every medical facility in the Middle East and Southwest Asia would be quickly overwhelmed,`` one Defense Department official said. ``The American military would have no choice but go in and help with the victims and to clean up.``
American estimates of the number of warheads in the Indian and Pakistani nuclear arsenals, and their capacity, remain classified. But Pentagon and administration officials, speaking in general terms, said Pakistan has ``a couple of dozen`` nuclear warheads and India ``several dozen.``
Pakistan`s nuclear warheads are comparable to the Hiroshima bomb, delivering a yield below 20 kilotons, or 20,000 tons of TNT, in explosive power. They can be delivered by jet — although India maintains an air-defense system superior to Pakistan`s — and by missile, Defense Department officials said. India`s nuclear warheads vary in explosive power depending on whether they are intended for delivery by aircraft or by missile, but are believed to carry a yield ``in the low 10`s of kilotons,`` one Pentagon official said.
For the second time this weekend, Pakistan conducted a missile test today, launching a missile with a reach of 175 miles on its maiden flight. Officials said the missile was made for striking Indian troops on the border. On Saturday, Pakistan tested a missile with a range of more than 900 miles.
Pentagon and administration officials who discussed the new intelligence assessment said they wanted to counter any false perception that India and Pakistan, which have fought three wars since independence from Britain in 1947, were simply going through a well-rehearsed dance of threat and counterthreat.
``We just don`t know where the `red lines` are any more,`` one administration official said, adding that President Bush and his senior advisers were not confident that the Indians and Pakistanis do, either.
Pentagon and administration officials said the analysis of Indian and Pakistani nuclear abilities, finished on Thursday, factored in current weather conditions to update casualty estimates of a nuclear exchange between the two nations.
Using military judgment to guess the targets and postulating that most but not all the weapons would be used, the intelligence estimated 9 million to 12 million deaths, and injuries ranging from 2 million to 7 million people, one Defense Department official said. ``But those are just the immediate casualties,`` the official added.
Not included in the estimate were subsequent deaths caused by urban firestorms ignited by the heat of a nuclear exchange, or deaths from long-term radiation, or the disease and starvation expected to spread.
The estimate also postulated that the nuclear weapons would explode on the surface and not in the air; such ``ground bursts`` dig up tons of soil and spread the poisonous, radioactive debris over a large area.
The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, an arms control research organization that tracks nuclear capacity worldwide, estimates that India maintains a nuclear arsenal of 25 to 40 nuclear weapons, compared with 15 to 20 for Pakistan.
The institute reports that India can deliver nuclear warheads with two types of combat aircraft, the MIG-27 and the Jaguar, and that Pakistan could arm its F-16`s with nuclear bombs. India also has ballistic missiles that can carry nuclear payloads: the short-range Pritvi I, which can carry a warhead up to 155 miles, and a two-stage Agni missile, with a range of 1,500 miles.
Pakistan`s short-range missile, tested today, is called the Hatf III, or Ghaznavi; its longer-range missile, tested Saturday, is called the Ghauri.
Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said on Friday that officials across the Bush administration were working to ``lower the temperature`` between India and Pakistan. ``There`s no question but that they have a capability of waging a nuclear war,`` he said at a Pentagon news conference. ``And needless to say, countries that are interested in that not happening think about those things.``
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/27/international/asia/27NUKE.html
By THOM SHANKER
ASHINGTON, May 26 — An American intelligence assessment, completed this week as tensions between India and Pakistan intensified, warns that a full-scale nuclear exchange between the two rivals could kill up to 12 million people immediately and injure up to 7 million, Pentagon officials say.
Even a ``more limited`` nuclear war — as measured in number of warheads — would have cataclysmic results, overwhelming hospitals across Asia and requiring vast foreign assistance, particularly from the United States, to battle radioactive contamination, famine and disease, officials said.
``The humanitarian crisis that would result would be so great that every medical facility in the Middle East and Southwest Asia would be quickly overwhelmed,`` one Defense Department official said. ``The American military would have no choice but go in and help with the victims and to clean up.``
American estimates of the number of warheads in the Indian and Pakistani nuclear arsenals, and their capacity, remain classified. But Pentagon and administration officials, speaking in general terms, said Pakistan has ``a couple of dozen`` nuclear warheads and India ``several dozen.``
Pakistan`s nuclear warheads are comparable to the Hiroshima bomb, delivering a yield below 20 kilotons, or 20,000 tons of TNT, in explosive power. They can be delivered by jet — although India maintains an air-defense system superior to Pakistan`s — and by missile, Defense Department officials said. India`s nuclear warheads vary in explosive power depending on whether they are intended for delivery by aircraft or by missile, but are believed to carry a yield ``in the low 10`s of kilotons,`` one Pentagon official said.
For the second time this weekend, Pakistan conducted a missile test today, launching a missile with a reach of 175 miles on its maiden flight. Officials said the missile was made for striking Indian troops on the border. On Saturday, Pakistan tested a missile with a range of more than 900 miles.
Pentagon and administration officials who discussed the new intelligence assessment said they wanted to counter any false perception that India and Pakistan, which have fought three wars since independence from Britain in 1947, were simply going through a well-rehearsed dance of threat and counterthreat.
``We just don`t know where the `red lines` are any more,`` one administration official said, adding that President Bush and his senior advisers were not confident that the Indians and Pakistanis do, either.
Pentagon and administration officials said the analysis of Indian and Pakistani nuclear abilities, finished on Thursday, factored in current weather conditions to update casualty estimates of a nuclear exchange between the two nations.
Using military judgment to guess the targets and postulating that most but not all the weapons would be used, the intelligence estimated 9 million to 12 million deaths, and injuries ranging from 2 million to 7 million people, one Defense Department official said. ``But those are just the immediate casualties,`` the official added.
Not included in the estimate were subsequent deaths caused by urban firestorms ignited by the heat of a nuclear exchange, or deaths from long-term radiation, or the disease and starvation expected to spread.
The estimate also postulated that the nuclear weapons would explode on the surface and not in the air; such ``ground bursts`` dig up tons of soil and spread the poisonous, radioactive debris over a large area.
The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, an arms control research organization that tracks nuclear capacity worldwide, estimates that India maintains a nuclear arsenal of 25 to 40 nuclear weapons, compared with 15 to 20 for Pakistan.
The institute reports that India can deliver nuclear warheads with two types of combat aircraft, the MIG-27 and the Jaguar, and that Pakistan could arm its F-16`s with nuclear bombs. India also has ballistic missiles that can carry nuclear payloads: the short-range Pritvi I, which can carry a warhead up to 155 miles, and a two-stage Agni missile, with a range of 1,500 miles.
Pakistan`s short-range missile, tested today, is called the Hatf III, or Ghaznavi; its longer-range missile, tested Saturday, is called the Ghauri.
Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said on Friday that officials across the Bush administration were working to ``lower the temperature`` between India and Pakistan. ``There`s no question but that they have a capability of waging a nuclear war,`` he said at a Pentagon news conference. ``And needless to say, countries that are interested in that not happening think about those things.``
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/27/international/asia/27NUKE.html
#86 Posted by sarwar on May 27, 2002 12:12:37 pm
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#89 Posted by Romair on May 27, 2002 12:12:37 pm
Anyone who has been critical of Pakistan` nuclear program needs to rethink their criticism. The only reason the Hinduvta brigade is not into Pakistan, turning Lahore, Karachi and Peshawar into Ahmedabad is because of good old Ghauri and Ghaznavi. This may not appeal to the anti-nuke lobby, but it ahs now proven to be a fact.
If the purpose of nuclear weapons is to deter an attack, then Pakistan`s nuclear weapons are certainly playing their part.
I had been pointing for two years towards the arm build-up of the Indian military. I had mentioned that countries do not buy offensive weaponary for display. They buy it to threaten and to use. This is exactly what has happened. The current Indian military buildup is one of the largest since WWII.
I had also been pointing to the BJP manifesto, and its openly anti-Muslim stances for two years. Once again, this has been exposed in the Gujrat riots. To me, it had been exposed during Ayodhya.
The BJP asking Pakistan to reign in religious militants is like the Ku Klux Klan asking someone to reign in racism. That someone maybe practicing racism, but not as much as the Ku Klux Klan.
The Indians need to realize that the BJP, India`s massive nuclear and conventional arms race buildups, and India`s actions in Kashmir will never allow South Asia to settle down into piece. These are the only three things I do not like about India and Indians.
This is not to say that Pakistani govts. haven`t been guilty. I have been very critical of Pakistan`s actions in East Pakistan and in Afghanistan. However, in the Kashmir situation, I think Pakistan is on the right side. One may disagree with the tactics used by Pakistan, but it is supporting the humane stance in Kashmir.
I will never believe the Indian claims of terrorism in Kashmir until India allows a neutral party to make such decisions in Kashmir. India is a party to the conflict and hence cannot become the judge and jury. I think 99% of the terrorism in Kashmir is being carried out by the Indians. And 1% by the rogue militant forces. India only shows the 1%.
The future of South Asia is in the hands of India, since it is the largest nation. And the future of India is in the hands of the BJP, since it is the most powerful political party. And the future of the BJP is in the hands of Advani (and to a lesser degree in the hands of Vajpayee).
Pakistan needs to do the following:
- Return to some kind of a democracy (keeping BB and NS out; anyone else is acceptable), as soon as possible.
- Make a strong policy of never using its military to attack India, or any other country. Even if the cause is 100% correct. However, never back down if it is threatened or attacked.
- Get out of all Ummah-based battles. The Ummah is currently sitting on its arses, and hasn`t said anything in support of Pakistan. Shouldn`t Yasir Arafat utter a few phrases in Pakistan`s support. If not, then why the hell do we burn our buildings for him. Pakistan needs to get out of becoming a platform for supporting Chechnyans, and Palestininians and God-knows who else. We have too many of our battles to fight. We are not strong enough to fight other`s battles.
- Make a clear statement to the Arab League and the IOC that Pakistan wants proactive action against India (which will never happen). Once the Arab League doesn`t do anything, then Pakistan should recognize Israel. Or at least, initiate the first steps of recognizing Israel. If the Arabs have recognized India, then why shouldn`t we recognize Israel. And countries like Morocco, Egypt, Jordan, Turky etc. recognized Israel a long time ago. Why are trying to be holier than the pope?
- Assure the Israelis and the US of our nuclear security systems, and convince them that it is not an Islamic bomb. Then get the Israeli pressure groups to ask Oracle, Pepsi, Nike and the other massive Jewish/US conglomerates to start investing in Pakistan. The Israelis would love to develop good relations with Pakistan, since they are dead scared of our nukes getting into the hands of Arabs.
- Apologize publicly to the Bangladeshis and Afghanis for killing them and putting the Taliban on them (not because I have any love or hatred for Bangladeshis or Afghanis, but because I feel Pakistan thorougly screwed them). Anyone trying to present a moral case on Kashmir, needs to clear its own closets first.
- Go out of our way to develop good relations with Iran. This is the only Islamic country that will stand by Pakistan in its conflicts with others (although recognizing Israel may not make them too happy).
- Have good relations with the USA, but throw our complete lot with China. China has a very strong interest in Pakistan remaining strong, and this is where Pakistanis future should lie economically and strategically.
- Kick out all the Arab warriors sitting in our madrassahs etc. No religious organization should be allowed any funding from Saudi Arabia or Iran or anywhere else. All Sudanese and Algerians and Saudis etc. need to be sent packing. These guys will screw up Pakistan. The only thing entering Pakistan from Islamic nations should be trade and money. No people should be allowed to enter Pakistan from other Muslim nations to preach Islam in Pakistan. And Pakistan should not send our people there, either.
- Stop trying to force secularism and Shariah down the throats of Pakistan. Pakistan is neither, and it needs to evolve at its own pace.
- Have a detailed discussion/referendum etc. on what Pakistanis want to do with Kashmir. If Pakistanis decide that it is not worth their while to support Kashmir, then Pakistan needs to withdraw and concentrate solely on Pakistan. And let the Kashmiris fight their own battles.
If Pakistanis decide they want to support Kashmir in all manners, then Pakistan should do so openly. Kashmir is disputed territory. It does not belong to India nor to Pakistan. Pakistan should state this and say that Pakistan will support Kashmiris morally, politically and if people train in Pakistan`s Kashmir and go into Indian Kashmir to fight, then Pakistan should declare it openly. Tell the whole world that Pakistan isn`t going to do anything to encourage of discourage such freedom-fighters, until India agrees to bilateral actions like UN monitoring, and removing Indian troops from Kashmiri villages and cities (where they are killing people in much highers numbers than what is going on in Palestine) etc. Also tell the whole world that Pakistan will not accept any terrorism charges of Indians, unless they are certified by International human rights organizations.
- Follow the lead of APHC on Kashmir. If the Pakistanis decide they want to support Kashmir, then only do so within the borders laid down by the APHC.
If after all of this, India is bent upon declaring war on Pakistan, because it wants to kill Muslims in Kashmir and dominate South Asia,with even more gusto, then Pakistan needs to realize that there comes a time in every country`s destiny where it has to stand up for itself. Don`t attack India, but don`t back off from defending Pakistan.
Never fear to negotiate, but never negotiate in fear. Live Free or Die. Olive branch in one hand, but arrows at the ready.
If the above phrases seem strange to anyone, they should realize that these phrases are out of the JFK`s speech, the New Hampshire state motto and the US symbol of the Bald Eagle. Why should Pakistanis not preach them within Pakistan, regardless of what the US or anyone says, when the US practices them.
Pakistan has been wrong in many historical issues, but in the current conflict Pakistan is in the right, and is handling it quite maturely and sensibly.
If the purpose of nuclear weapons is to deter an attack, then Pakistan`s nuclear weapons are certainly playing their part.
I had been pointing for two years towards the arm build-up of the Indian military. I had mentioned that countries do not buy offensive weaponary for display. They buy it to threaten and to use. This is exactly what has happened. The current Indian military buildup is one of the largest since WWII.
I had also been pointing to the BJP manifesto, and its openly anti-Muslim stances for two years. Once again, this has been exposed in the Gujrat riots. To me, it had been exposed during Ayodhya.
The BJP asking Pakistan to reign in religious militants is like the Ku Klux Klan asking someone to reign in racism. That someone maybe practicing racism, but not as much as the Ku Klux Klan.
The Indians need to realize that the BJP, India`s massive nuclear and conventional arms race buildups, and India`s actions in Kashmir will never allow South Asia to settle down into piece. These are the only three things I do not like about India and Indians.
This is not to say that Pakistani govts. haven`t been guilty. I have been very critical of Pakistan`s actions in East Pakistan and in Afghanistan. However, in the Kashmir situation, I think Pakistan is on the right side. One may disagree with the tactics used by Pakistan, but it is supporting the humane stance in Kashmir.
I will never believe the Indian claims of terrorism in Kashmir until India allows a neutral party to make such decisions in Kashmir. India is a party to the conflict and hence cannot become the judge and jury. I think 99% of the terrorism in Kashmir is being carried out by the Indians. And 1% by the rogue militant forces. India only shows the 1%.
The future of South Asia is in the hands of India, since it is the largest nation. And the future of India is in the hands of the BJP, since it is the most powerful political party. And the future of the BJP is in the hands of Advani (and to a lesser degree in the hands of Vajpayee).
Pakistan needs to do the following:
- Return to some kind of a democracy (keeping BB and NS out; anyone else is acceptable), as soon as possible.
- Make a strong policy of never using its military to attack India, or any other country. Even if the cause is 100% correct. However, never back down if it is threatened or attacked.
- Get out of all Ummah-based battles. The Ummah is currently sitting on its arses, and hasn`t said anything in support of Pakistan. Shouldn`t Yasir Arafat utter a few phrases in Pakistan`s support. If not, then why the hell do we burn our buildings for him. Pakistan needs to get out of becoming a platform for supporting Chechnyans, and Palestininians and God-knows who else. We have too many of our battles to fight. We are not strong enough to fight other`s battles.
- Make a clear statement to the Arab League and the IOC that Pakistan wants proactive action against India (which will never happen). Once the Arab League doesn`t do anything, then Pakistan should recognize Israel. Or at least, initiate the first steps of recognizing Israel. If the Arabs have recognized India, then why shouldn`t we recognize Israel. And countries like Morocco, Egypt, Jordan, Turky etc. recognized Israel a long time ago. Why are trying to be holier than the pope?
- Assure the Israelis and the US of our nuclear security systems, and convince them that it is not an Islamic bomb. Then get the Israeli pressure groups to ask Oracle, Pepsi, Nike and the other massive Jewish/US conglomerates to start investing in Pakistan. The Israelis would love to develop good relations with Pakistan, since they are dead scared of our nukes getting into the hands of Arabs.
- Apologize publicly to the Bangladeshis and Afghanis for killing them and putting the Taliban on them (not because I have any love or hatred for Bangladeshis or Afghanis, but because I feel Pakistan thorougly screwed them). Anyone trying to present a moral case on Kashmir, needs to clear its own closets first.
- Go out of our way to develop good relations with Iran. This is the only Islamic country that will stand by Pakistan in its conflicts with others (although recognizing Israel may not make them too happy).
- Have good relations with the USA, but throw our complete lot with China. China has a very strong interest in Pakistan remaining strong, and this is where Pakistanis future should lie economically and strategically.
- Kick out all the Arab warriors sitting in our madrassahs etc. No religious organization should be allowed any funding from Saudi Arabia or Iran or anywhere else. All Sudanese and Algerians and Saudis etc. need to be sent packing. These guys will screw up Pakistan. The only thing entering Pakistan from Islamic nations should be trade and money. No people should be allowed to enter Pakistan from other Muslim nations to preach Islam in Pakistan. And Pakistan should not send our people there, either.
- Stop trying to force secularism and Shariah down the throats of Pakistan. Pakistan is neither, and it needs to evolve at its own pace.
- Have a detailed discussion/referendum etc. on what Pakistanis want to do with Kashmir. If Pakistanis decide that it is not worth their while to support Kashmir, then Pakistan needs to withdraw and concentrate solely on Pakistan. And let the Kashmiris fight their own battles.
If Pakistanis decide they want to support Kashmir in all manners, then Pakistan should do so openly. Kashmir is disputed territory. It does not belong to India nor to Pakistan. Pakistan should state this and say that Pakistan will support Kashmiris morally, politically and if people train in Pakistan`s Kashmir and go into Indian Kashmir to fight, then Pakistan should declare it openly. Tell the whole world that Pakistan isn`t going to do anything to encourage of discourage such freedom-fighters, until India agrees to bilateral actions like UN monitoring, and removing Indian troops from Kashmiri villages and cities (where they are killing people in much highers numbers than what is going on in Palestine) etc. Also tell the whole world that Pakistan will not accept any terrorism charges of Indians, unless they are certified by International human rights organizations.
- Follow the lead of APHC on Kashmir. If the Pakistanis decide they want to support Kashmir, then only do so within the borders laid down by the APHC.
If after all of this, India is bent upon declaring war on Pakistan, because it wants to kill Muslims in Kashmir and dominate South Asia,with even more gusto, then Pakistan needs to realize that there comes a time in every country`s destiny where it has to stand up for itself. Don`t attack India, but don`t back off from defending Pakistan.
Never fear to negotiate, but never negotiate in fear. Live Free or Die. Olive branch in one hand, but arrows at the ready.
If the above phrases seem strange to anyone, they should realize that these phrases are out of the JFK`s speech, the New Hampshire state motto and the US symbol of the Bald Eagle. Why should Pakistanis not preach them within Pakistan, regardless of what the US or anyone says, when the US practices them.
Pakistan has been wrong in many historical issues, but in the current conflict Pakistan is in the right, and is handling it quite maturely and sensibly.
#90 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on May 27, 2002 12:35:46 pm
RE: Reply #: 87 Romair wrote ...
``Anyone who has been critical of Pakistan` nuclear program needs to rethink their criticism. The only reason the Hinduvta brigade is not into Pakistan, turning Lahore, Karachi and Peshawar into Ahmedabad is because of good old Ghauri and Ghaznavi.``
Romair ``aap log itna takalluf quyoon kartay hain?``
It is high time that you and your buddies in Khaki
thanked Z. A. Bhutto and his daughter Benazir for the above.
Ras
#91 Posted by sadna on May 27, 2002 1:03:10 pm
DRUMZ #83
I find it amazing that you(and others) equate opposing jihad with advocating war. I urge you to see before its too late that there are essential differences between these two stances.
I find it amazing that you(and others) equate opposing jihad with advocating war. I urge you to see before its too late that there are essential differences between these two stances.
#92 Posted by tvarad on May 27, 2002 1:11:03 pm
RE: Reply #: 87 Romair
The irony of your post is the fact that you are willing to go to such great lengths to make peace with a country which is at the periphery of your world viz. Israel (whose people don`t give a s * *t about what Pakistan thinks about them, anyway) but forget the one and only suggestion that will result in durability for the concept of Pakistan, viz.:
making peace with India.
The irony of your post is the fact that you are willing to go to such great lengths to make peace with a country which is at the periphery of your world viz. Israel (whose people don`t give a s * *t about what Pakistan thinks about them, anyway) but forget the one and only suggestion that will result in durability for the concept of Pakistan, viz.:
making peace with India.
#93 Posted by rsridhar on May 27, 2002 4:55:13 pm
re:Reply #: 87
Romair,
You make me feel like puking all over the keyboard. What Ummah are you talking about? How many islamic countries have voiced support for Pak during the current crisis. You guys are fukcing morons. You don`t get it, do you? Pak is totally isolated today. US tolerates Pak because it needs it. Did you listen to what Bush had to say in a joint conference with French President? I have yet to see one foreign country support Pak. Your Ummah is dead. You do not get it because you are as brain dead as your freaking Ummah.
Indira Gandhi waited for months after the refugees started pouring in before she stuck decisively. India is tightening the screws on Mushy. When it has demonstrated to the world that it has acted responsibly but Mushy has done Zilch in controlling terrorism, it will go to war. Military analysts must have factored in Pak`s nuclear capabilities. Do you seriouly think US will just watch on as Pak nukes India. Pak`s airspace is under complete US surveillance. Pak`s nuclear assets are possibly under some kind of surveillance. No western power would like these assets to fall in jehadi hands. Hence, make no mistake, the moment Pak mobilises nuclear warheads, Pak would have crosse a threahold and would be answerable to the world community.
A limited strike in POK will be fast and decisive. India is probably waiting for international community to give its tacit approval. Only very recently has the world community come to know how janus-faced Mushy is. Noone believes him today when he says there is no infiltration across the border.
When the war does break out, not even China will be there to help you. This war will be costly but has become necessary for India. India cannot progress with the present set up in Pakistan. This set up which includes ISI, Army and militants need to be dismantled. Since Army is giving a safe haven to the other 2, Army needs to be defeated in a decisive war.
Sridhar
Romair,
You make me feel like puking all over the keyboard. What Ummah are you talking about? How many islamic countries have voiced support for Pak during the current crisis. You guys are fukcing morons. You don`t get it, do you? Pak is totally isolated today. US tolerates Pak because it needs it. Did you listen to what Bush had to say in a joint conference with French President? I have yet to see one foreign country support Pak. Your Ummah is dead. You do not get it because you are as brain dead as your freaking Ummah.
Indira Gandhi waited for months after the refugees started pouring in before she stuck decisively. India is tightening the screws on Mushy. When it has demonstrated to the world that it has acted responsibly but Mushy has done Zilch in controlling terrorism, it will go to war. Military analysts must have factored in Pak`s nuclear capabilities. Do you seriouly think US will just watch on as Pak nukes India. Pak`s airspace is under complete US surveillance. Pak`s nuclear assets are possibly under some kind of surveillance. No western power would like these assets to fall in jehadi hands. Hence, make no mistake, the moment Pak mobilises nuclear warheads, Pak would have crosse a threahold and would be answerable to the world community.
A limited strike in POK will be fast and decisive. India is probably waiting for international community to give its tacit approval. Only very recently has the world community come to know how janus-faced Mushy is. Noone believes him today when he says there is no infiltration across the border.
When the war does break out, not even China will be there to help you. This war will be costly but has become necessary for India. India cannot progress with the present set up in Pakistan. This set up which includes ISI, Army and militants need to be dismantled. Since Army is giving a safe haven to the other 2, Army needs to be defeated in a decisive war.
Sridhar
#94 Posted by rsridhar on May 27, 2002 4:55:13 pm
re: Pak`s missile tests
Everytime Pak tests a missile, i feel happy. Why? Because i know that that benighted country and its ruler has wasted yet another missile. These missiles are Korean and Chinese missiles, repainted as Ghauri and Hatf and what not. These missiles are already tested. Present tests are probably meant to reassure the domestic audience.
Sridhar
Everytime Pak tests a missile, i feel happy. Why? Because i know that that benighted country and its ruler has wasted yet another missile. These missiles are Korean and Chinese missiles, repainted as Ghauri and Hatf and what not. These missiles are already tested. Present tests are probably meant to reassure the domestic audience.
Sridhar
#95 Posted by DRUMZ on May 27, 2002 4:55:13 pm
sadna: ``I find it amazing that you(and others) equate opposing jihad with advocating war. I urge you to see before its too late that there are essential differences between these two stances.``
Read your post #60. What was the point of it? Which elite is not like that? I find it amazing that the SAME people have been having the same partisan, pointless conversation since the day i came on this site. For one year u have been talking about the same thing. What is the point???
You`re opposing Jihad, and they are opposing Indian troops in kashmere, who cares? If any of you were half as serious about kashmere as u THINK u are, u would not be typing on the computer. THIS is not opposing jihad, this is having mindless dialogues with mindless people. Indians believe their country is rite, pakis believe their country is rite.
If you really care, go there and handle it. Talking to that idiot urstruly (who is talking about war while living in detroit) will accomplish what? Are you people for real?
Sh1t, every day i think about death. Some of my friends discuss various ways to kill a man over dinner. These are real soldiers. If sh1t went down, they would handle it with their lives. This is what i respect. They dont talk about idle sh1t. Then i have to come here and listen to you computer addicts talking about war? Give me a break!
Read your post #60. What was the point of it? Which elite is not like that? I find it amazing that the SAME people have been having the same partisan, pointless conversation since the day i came on this site. For one year u have been talking about the same thing. What is the point???
You`re opposing Jihad, and they are opposing Indian troops in kashmere, who cares? If any of you were half as serious about kashmere as u THINK u are, u would not be typing on the computer. THIS is not opposing jihad, this is having mindless dialogues with mindless people. Indians believe their country is rite, pakis believe their country is rite.
If you really care, go there and handle it. Talking to that idiot urstruly (who is talking about war while living in detroit) will accomplish what? Are you people for real?
Sh1t, every day i think about death. Some of my friends discuss various ways to kill a man over dinner. These are real soldiers. If sh1t went down, they would handle it with their lives. This is what i respect. They dont talk about idle sh1t. Then i have to come here and listen to you computer addicts talking about war? Give me a break!
#96 Posted by DRUMZ on May 27, 2002 4:55:13 pm
Arjun: ``More than 80% of the terrorist incidents against the US have some paki angle?``
What the HELL do u think my point was? What kind of bullsh1t is this? ``Paki angle?`` How old are you?
You do not deserve that name.
What the HELL do u think my point was? What kind of bullsh1t is this? ``Paki angle?`` How old are you?
You do not deserve that name.
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