The Perfect Murder
Farzana Versey May 26, 2002
#573 Posted by DRUMZ on June 12, 2002 11:37:53 am
Samina: No, i know they had yoga in egypt, but not sure what the method was.
Peace.
Peace.
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#572 Posted by scout on June 12, 2002 11:37:53 am
anNy #567,
and you should get married to ali1 and watch the floor break ;)
and you should get married to ali1 and watch the floor break ;)
#571 Posted by cutandpaste on June 12, 2002 11:37:53 am
A Good Voice Silenced: Kashmir`s Loss Is Also Mine
By Pamela Constable
Sunday, June 9, 2002; Page B02
KABUL, Afghanistan
Two weeks ago, I was in a dingy government office in northern Afghanistan, interviewing a police official. A small TV set flickered in the corner, but I barely noticed it until I suddenly glimpsed a familiar, grizzled face frozen on the screen. Underneath was a one-word caption: Assassinated.
It was Abdul Ghani Lone, a70-year-old lawyer and politician from India`s Kashmir Valley. He had been gunned down in Srinagar, the region`s major city, just after delivering a speech at a memorial service for another slain political leader.
Sick with sadness and rage, I sank down in front of the TV and touched the face on the screen. Lone had been my friend, a man I admired greatly for his candor and courage. I had no idea who had killed him, but I immediately knew why: The stakes in Kashmir had simply become too high to tolerate an honest, moderate voice.
Tens of thousands of people have died violently in the Kashmir Valley, a corner of India whose natural beauty has been savaged by avicious guerrilla war for the past 13 years, a place where fading posters of scenic lakes and mountain crags were long ago eclipsed by news photos of kerchiefed women wailing over corpses.
During numerous visits to Kashmir over the past four years, I have written about dozens of these deaths, always struggling to achieve that fraudulent balance between outrage and impartiality. Sometimes I saw the mutilated bodies of young Kashmiri guerrilla suspects dumped by roadsides, sometimes the charred bodies of young Indian soldiers torn to shreds by grenade blasts.
Always, the killings were fresh fodder for the propaganda war being waged by India, Pakistan and the Kashmiri separatist movement, whose competing claims to the divided border region are rooted in the chaotic, never-clarified partition of Hindu-dominated India that created Muslim Pakistan more than half a century ago.
Always, facts were hard to come by and blame was easily diffused in the murky fog of a protracted proxy war in which all sides were guilty of intransigence, cruelty and cynicism -- and virtually no one ever told the truth.
But when I learned that Lone had been assassinated on May 21, I felt as if an unforgivable line had been crossed -- as if the forces of extremism were sending the ultimate, nihilistic message from the murk. I felt a sense of despair far deeper and sharper than anything I had experienced while covering scores of more anonymous deaths in Kashmir.
For years, Lone had been one of the few voices of consistent reason in a conflict dominated by radical posturing, narrow self-interest and gratuitous violence. A one-time state legislator and lifelong Muslim separatist who was a senior leader of the All Parties Hurriyet Conference, he harbored equal mistrust of India`s and Pakistan`s designs on Kashmir.
He defended the Kashmiri armed insurgency, but only as a necessary, limited evil in the absence of dialogue and democracy. And when Islamic fundamentalist fighters from Pakistan began gaining influence over the guerrilla movement several years ago, he was the only prominent separatist who spoke out against them.
Since 1998, Lone and I had met periodically in his barren Srinagar office for long conversations, closer to history lectures, laced with his mournful aphorisms and wry wit. I ate with his family, I traveled with him, I was invited to his son`s wedding. I called him ``Lone Sahib,`` a term of respect. He called me ``daughter,`` which made me feel embarrassed but never compromised.
Our conversations helped me understand the tortured history of Kashmir, the fatalistic pride and bitterness of the valley`s Muslim majority, the alienation and frustration that drove thousands of young Kashmiri men to take up arms in the early 1990s against the far more powerful military forces of the Indian state.
``Kashmir is like a well with a poisoned dog inside it,`` Lone told me in 1999. ``India keeps removing buckets and buckets of water, but it has never removed the dog. As long as the Kashmir issue is not resolved, the poison will remain.``
But Lone never allowed himself to be poisoned. Despite his abiding suspicion of India`s central government, which he viewed as an occupying colonial power, he never gave up hoping for negotiation and democratic rule in Kashmir. Although convinced he had been cheated out of his state assembly seat by Indian officials in 1987, he recently expressed support for upcoming state elections.
Despite his movement`s longtime dependence on Pakistan, and the separatist myth that most Kashmiri Muslims yearned to be part of the neighboring state, Lone was increasingly critical of Pakistan`s self-interested patronage. Two years ago, during a rare trip to Islamabad for his son`s wedding, he pointedly said it was time for Kashmir`s Islamic ``guest fighters`` to go home.
``Our biggest danger now is sabotage from extremists on both sides,`` he told me then. ``Both the Pakistani [intelligence services] and the Indian army want to continue this war. There are many vested interests, and we must not fall into their trap. Kashmir should be left to manage its own problems.``
But the guerrilla attacks intensified, hostility between India and Pakistan mounted, and now the neighboring rivals -- both possessing nuclear arsenals -- proclaim themselves ready for war. Hundreds of thousands of troops stare each other down across the border, and Pakistani officials have made veiled threats to use nuclear weapons if India attacks.
Against this backdrop of near-total polarization, the slaying of Lone made tragic sense. Just as Kashmir seemed about to boil over into the decisive regional conflict of Islamic extremists` dreams, the senior separatist leader was disavowing their radical agenda and backing Indian elections. He had to be silenced.
Lone`s assassination, by masked gunmen who posed as police and then escaped, made me think instantly of Neelam Tiruchelvam, a moderate Sri Lankan politician from the Tamil ethnic minority, who had been respected for his efforts to find neutral ground and a negotiated solution to the protracted civil war with the Sinhalese majority.
In July 1999, Tiruchelvam, 55, was killed by a suicide bomber, probably from the Tamil Tiger guerrillas. Like Lone`s, his reasonable demands for negotiation and limited political autonomy for an ethnic-minority region posed a far greater threat than any armed foe to extremists` visions of cataclysmic confrontation.
To those genuinely concerned about solving the Kashmir conflict, Lone`s audacious slaying seemed to deal a blow to the prospects for peace. Indian newspaper editorials mourned the ``death of moderation,`` the ``redundancy of reason`` and the demise of a dove in a ``season of hawks.``
To those more concerned with spin, the unsolved crime was another opportunity for easy finger-pointing. Many Indians blamed Pakistan, suggesting that its intelligence agencies had decided to eliminate a persuasive, anti-Pakistan voice. Some Pakistani guerrilla groups blamed India, suggesting that its agents had used Lone to tar them as terrorists.
Given the treacherous history of the Kashmir conflict, neither scenario was out of the question. But to me, it hardly mattered who had pulled the trigger. Lone Sahib was gone. There would be no more edifying chats in his office, no more Kashmiri proverbs and no more embarrassing moments when a grizzled old politician, with sly but irresistible charm, greeted me fondly as ``daughter.``
I will always miss him.
Pamela Constable, who is currently based in Kabul, has been The Post`s South Asia bureau chief for three years.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15805-2002Jun8.html
By Pamela Constable
Sunday, June 9, 2002; Page B02
KABUL, Afghanistan
Two weeks ago, I was in a dingy government office in northern Afghanistan, interviewing a police official. A small TV set flickered in the corner, but I barely noticed it until I suddenly glimpsed a familiar, grizzled face frozen on the screen. Underneath was a one-word caption: Assassinated.
It was Abdul Ghani Lone, a70-year-old lawyer and politician from India`s Kashmir Valley. He had been gunned down in Srinagar, the region`s major city, just after delivering a speech at a memorial service for another slain political leader.
Sick with sadness and rage, I sank down in front of the TV and touched the face on the screen. Lone had been my friend, a man I admired greatly for his candor and courage. I had no idea who had killed him, but I immediately knew why: The stakes in Kashmir had simply become too high to tolerate an honest, moderate voice.
Tens of thousands of people have died violently in the Kashmir Valley, a corner of India whose natural beauty has been savaged by avicious guerrilla war for the past 13 years, a place where fading posters of scenic lakes and mountain crags were long ago eclipsed by news photos of kerchiefed women wailing over corpses.
During numerous visits to Kashmir over the past four years, I have written about dozens of these deaths, always struggling to achieve that fraudulent balance between outrage and impartiality. Sometimes I saw the mutilated bodies of young Kashmiri guerrilla suspects dumped by roadsides, sometimes the charred bodies of young Indian soldiers torn to shreds by grenade blasts.
Always, the killings were fresh fodder for the propaganda war being waged by India, Pakistan and the Kashmiri separatist movement, whose competing claims to the divided border region are rooted in the chaotic, never-clarified partition of Hindu-dominated India that created Muslim Pakistan more than half a century ago.
Always, facts were hard to come by and blame was easily diffused in the murky fog of a protracted proxy war in which all sides were guilty of intransigence, cruelty and cynicism -- and virtually no one ever told the truth.
But when I learned that Lone had been assassinated on May 21, I felt as if an unforgivable line had been crossed -- as if the forces of extremism were sending the ultimate, nihilistic message from the murk. I felt a sense of despair far deeper and sharper than anything I had experienced while covering scores of more anonymous deaths in Kashmir.
For years, Lone had been one of the few voices of consistent reason in a conflict dominated by radical posturing, narrow self-interest and gratuitous violence. A one-time state legislator and lifelong Muslim separatist who was a senior leader of the All Parties Hurriyet Conference, he harbored equal mistrust of India`s and Pakistan`s designs on Kashmir.
He defended the Kashmiri armed insurgency, but only as a necessary, limited evil in the absence of dialogue and democracy. And when Islamic fundamentalist fighters from Pakistan began gaining influence over the guerrilla movement several years ago, he was the only prominent separatist who spoke out against them.
Since 1998, Lone and I had met periodically in his barren Srinagar office for long conversations, closer to history lectures, laced with his mournful aphorisms and wry wit. I ate with his family, I traveled with him, I was invited to his son`s wedding. I called him ``Lone Sahib,`` a term of respect. He called me ``daughter,`` which made me feel embarrassed but never compromised.
Our conversations helped me understand the tortured history of Kashmir, the fatalistic pride and bitterness of the valley`s Muslim majority, the alienation and frustration that drove thousands of young Kashmiri men to take up arms in the early 1990s against the far more powerful military forces of the Indian state.
``Kashmir is like a well with a poisoned dog inside it,`` Lone told me in 1999. ``India keeps removing buckets and buckets of water, but it has never removed the dog. As long as the Kashmir issue is not resolved, the poison will remain.``
But Lone never allowed himself to be poisoned. Despite his abiding suspicion of India`s central government, which he viewed as an occupying colonial power, he never gave up hoping for negotiation and democratic rule in Kashmir. Although convinced he had been cheated out of his state assembly seat by Indian officials in 1987, he recently expressed support for upcoming state elections.
Despite his movement`s longtime dependence on Pakistan, and the separatist myth that most Kashmiri Muslims yearned to be part of the neighboring state, Lone was increasingly critical of Pakistan`s self-interested patronage. Two years ago, during a rare trip to Islamabad for his son`s wedding, he pointedly said it was time for Kashmir`s Islamic ``guest fighters`` to go home.
``Our biggest danger now is sabotage from extremists on both sides,`` he told me then. ``Both the Pakistani [intelligence services] and the Indian army want to continue this war. There are many vested interests, and we must not fall into their trap. Kashmir should be left to manage its own problems.``
But the guerrilla attacks intensified, hostility between India and Pakistan mounted, and now the neighboring rivals -- both possessing nuclear arsenals -- proclaim themselves ready for war. Hundreds of thousands of troops stare each other down across the border, and Pakistani officials have made veiled threats to use nuclear weapons if India attacks.
Against this backdrop of near-total polarization, the slaying of Lone made tragic sense. Just as Kashmir seemed about to boil over into the decisive regional conflict of Islamic extremists` dreams, the senior separatist leader was disavowing their radical agenda and backing Indian elections. He had to be silenced.
Lone`s assassination, by masked gunmen who posed as police and then escaped, made me think instantly of Neelam Tiruchelvam, a moderate Sri Lankan politician from the Tamil ethnic minority, who had been respected for his efforts to find neutral ground and a negotiated solution to the protracted civil war with the Sinhalese majority.
In July 1999, Tiruchelvam, 55, was killed by a suicide bomber, probably from the Tamil Tiger guerrillas. Like Lone`s, his reasonable demands for negotiation and limited political autonomy for an ethnic-minority region posed a far greater threat than any armed foe to extremists` visions of cataclysmic confrontation.
To those genuinely concerned about solving the Kashmir conflict, Lone`s audacious slaying seemed to deal a blow to the prospects for peace. Indian newspaper editorials mourned the ``death of moderation,`` the ``redundancy of reason`` and the demise of a dove in a ``season of hawks.``
To those more concerned with spin, the unsolved crime was another opportunity for easy finger-pointing. Many Indians blamed Pakistan, suggesting that its intelligence agencies had decided to eliminate a persuasive, anti-Pakistan voice. Some Pakistani guerrilla groups blamed India, suggesting that its agents had used Lone to tar them as terrorists.
Given the treacherous history of the Kashmir conflict, neither scenario was out of the question. But to me, it hardly mattered who had pulled the trigger. Lone Sahib was gone. There would be no more edifying chats in his office, no more Kashmiri proverbs and no more embarrassing moments when a grizzled old politician, with sly but irresistible charm, greeted me fondly as ``daughter.``
I will always miss him.
Pamela Constable, who is currently based in Kabul, has been The Post`s South Asia bureau chief for three years.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15805-2002Jun8.html
#570 Posted by sadna on June 11, 2002 10:50:43 pm
Concern for Kashmiris? Yeah right.
http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=15967
``.. On the contentious issue of Kashmir, the president explained that its local population has been living in a similar situation for over a hundred years, and the media exaggerates the significance of shots being traded. In fact, this happens on a daily basis, and the local population on both sides of the border have become desensitized to it...``
http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=15967
``.. On the contentious issue of Kashmir, the president explained that its local population has been living in a similar situation for over a hundred years, and the media exaggerates the significance of shots being traded. In fact, this happens on a daily basis, and the local population on both sides of the border have become desensitized to it...``
#569 Posted by cutandpaste on June 11, 2002 4:07:16 pm
MINORITISM: A promoter to Muslim separatism
by R.Upadhyay.
The Gujarat tragedy has once again brought the age old minoritism into focus. There may be multiple causes like social, political, economic and religious behind this problem, but the dangerous game being played by the political class since Independence has caused great harm to the unity and strength of the country. Even though the concept of minoritism is against the spirit of the pluralistic order of Indian society the over powering and dominant political masters of this country are using it as a political tool for fulfillment of their personal ambitions.
The framers of the Indian constitution classified the people of this country between minority and majority on the basis of religion and incorporated certain special privileges and rights to safeguard the interests of the former. The intention was good, but they did not realize that the politicians from both the communities would used it as a hand maid to further their own communal politics and aggravate social tensions. What has happened now is that the constitutional attempt has now become an obstacle to integration!
The concept of minoritism was initially used by the British for their colonial interests but the post-Independence political leadership used it for their vote bank politics. While the conspiracy to play the divisive policy of divide and rule was hatched by the then rulers by granting the status of separate electorate to Muslims in 1909, the post-colonial leadership of the country carried forward this ill-intentioned British legacy for their self seeking political interests. In stead of uniting the people in the wake of partition of the country, the issue was ironically legitimized to work as an extension of the communal award granted to the Indian people by the British.
While promoting a powerful force among Indian Muslims to fight for their share of political power, the British also patronised a section of Indian leaders to counter the forceful nationalist group in the country. This latter group developed a crooked version of secularism by granting special privileges to minority. This privilege to the second largest religious majority of the country helped the anti-majority forces to replay the same divisive game of the British. Such combination of religion and politics not only sidelined the ethical values of Indian society but it generated a national anger among the majority against the vast majority of Muslim minority, who were responsible for partition of the country. The situation gradually turned into a fertile ground for consolidation of majoritarian forces which in turn added further fears in the minds of the minority as the so called secularists created the bogey of insecurity of the minorities.
Indian constitution is loud and clear that there is no discrimination on Indian citizens on account of their faith as all of them are enjoying the rights of full citizenship. Rather minorities in India are accorded more protection with constitutional, legislative, and statutory guarantees along with various national and international obligations. But despite such protection, our experience of last 55 years suggests that the gap of communal mistrust between Hindus and Muslims is gradually widening. Why is this so and what could be done?
It is ironical that the Muslims kept themselves isolated even from other religious minorities in India. They were never found to be aggressively agitated on the anti-Sikh riots in 1984 or the incidents relating to anti Christian agitation in the country. This shows the extreme religious exclusiveness inculcated into them by their leaders.
Let me quote Rafiq Zakaria a noted Muslim scholar, who admitted in his book The Widening Divide,`` a deep study of the last hundred years of British rule has, however, convinced me that at every crucial moment, when unity might have been preserved, it is Muslims, who betrayed; but Hindus cannot escape the blame.``
The term minority has a subjective definition; but no attempt was ever made to define it precisely in the context of the pluralistic order of Indian society. The general interpretation that a minority community means a community, which is numerically less than 50% of the total population of the country may not give justice to inter or intra-religious minority. Hindus in Nagaland, Mizoram, Meghalaya, Kashmir, Lakshadweep and Punjab states are in minority but they do not have any privilege of being minority there. This would equally apply to many of the castes in different states in India!
Is there no lasting solution to this problem of Muslim minority in India? The answer to this most baffling question lies with Muslim intelligentsia as also the majority community.
Many consider the two nation theory as the main reason behind the widening divide between the two major religious communities in India. Rafiq Zakaria, a noted Muslim scholar remarked in his book The Widening Divide(Penguin Books 1996, page xvii):-`` It is now universally except in Pakistan admitted that two nation theory did great harm to inter-communal harmony.``
The two nation theory has done great harm more to the Muslims in India. At best the theory should have been seen as a tool for partition then and nothing beyond. It needs to be buried deep and never to be resurrected. There is no doubt that a historical wrong has been done to the people of India and the communal division has affected India more than Pakistan..
Humanity may demand that majority must be considerate to allay the fear of insecurity from the minds of the minority. But for this, minority is also expected to create an atmosphere of goodwill with the majority. The secular fabric of the nation can be protected only when religious leaders belonging to both minority and majority draw a line between religion, personal and political life.
Protection does not and should not mean pampering. Some would argue that the security of minority lies with the goodwill of the majority which is the key to create such an atmosphere. Rafiq Zakaria, expressed similar view, which is rather uncommon.. He said in his book entitled The Widening Divide (Penguin Books 1996), ``I believe placed as Indian Muslims are, their well being and security lie in the goodwill of the majority, not in resorting to agitation and violence.`` A similar view expressed by the RSS chief received severe criticism from many quarters.
Conclusion: Fringe groups are present in all communities and the Muslim community is no exception. What is needed is that the Muslim intellectuals should take the lead in resolving the minority problem by letting their brethren to join the mainstream and not display the hypocrisy of trying to act as saviour of the community by actually widening the divide. As said before and we maintain that the two nation theory should be buried once and for all. Those who chose to stay in India are Indians first and Muslims next. There should be nothing like Indian Muslims or Muslim Indians. There is a need to look at the special privileges, whether such provisions are meant to uplift them economically and yet get integrated with the mainstream or whether these privileges perpetuate the division of majority and minority.
by R.Upadhyay.
The Gujarat tragedy has once again brought the age old minoritism into focus. There may be multiple causes like social, political, economic and religious behind this problem, but the dangerous game being played by the political class since Independence has caused great harm to the unity and strength of the country. Even though the concept of minoritism is against the spirit of the pluralistic order of Indian society the over powering and dominant political masters of this country are using it as a political tool for fulfillment of their personal ambitions.
The framers of the Indian constitution classified the people of this country between minority and majority on the basis of religion and incorporated certain special privileges and rights to safeguard the interests of the former. The intention was good, but they did not realize that the politicians from both the communities would used it as a hand maid to further their own communal politics and aggravate social tensions. What has happened now is that the constitutional attempt has now become an obstacle to integration!
The concept of minoritism was initially used by the British for their colonial interests but the post-Independence political leadership used it for their vote bank politics. While the conspiracy to play the divisive policy of divide and rule was hatched by the then rulers by granting the status of separate electorate to Muslims in 1909, the post-colonial leadership of the country carried forward this ill-intentioned British legacy for their self seeking political interests. In stead of uniting the people in the wake of partition of the country, the issue was ironically legitimized to work as an extension of the communal award granted to the Indian people by the British.
While promoting a powerful force among Indian Muslims to fight for their share of political power, the British also patronised a section of Indian leaders to counter the forceful nationalist group in the country. This latter group developed a crooked version of secularism by granting special privileges to minority. This privilege to the second largest religious majority of the country helped the anti-majority forces to replay the same divisive game of the British. Such combination of religion and politics not only sidelined the ethical values of Indian society but it generated a national anger among the majority against the vast majority of Muslim minority, who were responsible for partition of the country. The situation gradually turned into a fertile ground for consolidation of majoritarian forces which in turn added further fears in the minds of the minority as the so called secularists created the bogey of insecurity of the minorities.
Indian constitution is loud and clear that there is no discrimination on Indian citizens on account of their faith as all of them are enjoying the rights of full citizenship. Rather minorities in India are accorded more protection with constitutional, legislative, and statutory guarantees along with various national and international obligations. But despite such protection, our experience of last 55 years suggests that the gap of communal mistrust between Hindus and Muslims is gradually widening. Why is this so and what could be done?
It is ironical that the Muslims kept themselves isolated even from other religious minorities in India. They were never found to be aggressively agitated on the anti-Sikh riots in 1984 or the incidents relating to anti Christian agitation in the country. This shows the extreme religious exclusiveness inculcated into them by their leaders.
Let me quote Rafiq Zakaria a noted Muslim scholar, who admitted in his book The Widening Divide,`` a deep study of the last hundred years of British rule has, however, convinced me that at every crucial moment, when unity might have been preserved, it is Muslims, who betrayed; but Hindus cannot escape the blame.``
The term minority has a subjective definition; but no attempt was ever made to define it precisely in the context of the pluralistic order of Indian society. The general interpretation that a minority community means a community, which is numerically less than 50% of the total population of the country may not give justice to inter or intra-religious minority. Hindus in Nagaland, Mizoram, Meghalaya, Kashmir, Lakshadweep and Punjab states are in minority but they do not have any privilege of being minority there. This would equally apply to many of the castes in different states in India!
Is there no lasting solution to this problem of Muslim minority in India? The answer to this most baffling question lies with Muslim intelligentsia as also the majority community.
Many consider the two nation theory as the main reason behind the widening divide between the two major religious communities in India. Rafiq Zakaria, a noted Muslim scholar remarked in his book The Widening Divide(Penguin Books 1996, page xvii):-`` It is now universally except in Pakistan admitted that two nation theory did great harm to inter-communal harmony.``
The two nation theory has done great harm more to the Muslims in India. At best the theory should have been seen as a tool for partition then and nothing beyond. It needs to be buried deep and never to be resurrected. There is no doubt that a historical wrong has been done to the people of India and the communal division has affected India more than Pakistan..
Humanity may demand that majority must be considerate to allay the fear of insecurity from the minds of the minority. But for this, minority is also expected to create an atmosphere of goodwill with the majority. The secular fabric of the nation can be protected only when religious leaders belonging to both minority and majority draw a line between religion, personal and political life.
Protection does not and should not mean pampering. Some would argue that the security of minority lies with the goodwill of the majority which is the key to create such an atmosphere. Rafiq Zakaria, expressed similar view, which is rather uncommon.. He said in his book entitled The Widening Divide (Penguin Books 1996), ``I believe placed as Indian Muslims are, their well being and security lie in the goodwill of the majority, not in resorting to agitation and violence.`` A similar view expressed by the RSS chief received severe criticism from many quarters.
Conclusion: Fringe groups are present in all communities and the Muslim community is no exception. What is needed is that the Muslim intellectuals should take the lead in resolving the minority problem by letting their brethren to join the mainstream and not display the hypocrisy of trying to act as saviour of the community by actually widening the divide. As said before and we maintain that the two nation theory should be buried once and for all. Those who chose to stay in India are Indians first and Muslims next. There should be nothing like Indian Muslims or Muslim Indians. There is a need to look at the special privileges, whether such provisions are meant to uplift them economically and yet get integrated with the mainstream or whether these privileges perpetuate the division of majority and minority.
#568 Posted by sarwar on June 11, 2002 4:07:16 pm
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#567 Posted by sarwar on June 11, 2002 1:56:46 pm
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#566 Posted by sarwar on June 11, 2002 1:56:46 pm
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#565 Posted by rsaxena on June 11, 2002 1:56:46 pm
re: anny
...feign ignorance...chalo theek hai...whatever...jao baarish mein naacho, aur mujhe thung na karo...adios
...feign ignorance...chalo theek hai...whatever...jao baarish mein naacho, aur mujhe thung na karo...adios
#564 Posted by anNy on June 11, 2002 12:31:39 pm
``...soono soono..dhyaan se soono...ali1 is out insulting someone somewhere...might even be women...go back to cheering him on...aur phir you can come and scold rsaxena for taunting retards, ok bacchey?...
- have a lovely day in the islamic republic of pakistan; and please use the full, correct name...yaad hai kitna gussa aya tha jab kisine pakistan ke naam mein A ko U se replace kar diya tha?...phir kyon aadha naam drop karna hai?...``
merae pyaarae saxena, sweetoo, thora sa coherant reply hee likh daetae...samajh tau aata...relevent hee hota, haain? buts its okay, i i will still respond, lots of faaltoo time...the rain is falling and the sunflowers are smiling and the horses are neighing and merae khayaal sae ill end this before it turns into one of those annoying things u and scout have every few weeks...shaadi karloe tumn do...the bed will break i tell you...waisae na karro, itnae manhoos bachae hongae...budtameez aur jhangli aur dheet...ill wait to be slaughtered now..tata
- have a lovely day in the islamic republic of pakistan; and please use the full, correct name...yaad hai kitna gussa aya tha jab kisine pakistan ke naam mein A ko U se replace kar diya tha?...phir kyon aadha naam drop karna hai?...``
merae pyaarae saxena, sweetoo, thora sa coherant reply hee likh daetae...samajh tau aata...relevent hee hota, haain? buts its okay, i i will still respond, lots of faaltoo time...the rain is falling and the sunflowers are smiling and the horses are neighing and merae khayaal sae ill end this before it turns into one of those annoying things u and scout have every few weeks...shaadi karloe tumn do...the bed will break i tell you...waisae na karro, itnae manhoos bachae hongae...budtameez aur jhangli aur dheet...ill wait to be slaughtered now..tata
#562 Posted by rsaxena on June 11, 2002 2:22:31 am
re: anny
...soono soono..dhyaan se soono...ali1 is out insulting someone somewhere...might even be women...go back to cheering him on...aur phir you can come and scold rsaxena for taunting retards, ok bacchey?...
- have a lovely day in the islamic republic of pakistan; and please use the full, correct name...yaad hai kitna gussa aya tha jab kisine pakistan ke naam mein A ko U se replace kar diya tha?...phir kyon aadha naam drop karna hai?...
...soono soono..dhyaan se soono...ali1 is out insulting someone somewhere...might even be women...go back to cheering him on...aur phir you can come and scold rsaxena for taunting retards, ok bacchey?...
- have a lovely day in the islamic republic of pakistan; and please use the full, correct name...yaad hai kitna gussa aya tha jab kisine pakistan ke naam mein A ko U se replace kar diya tha?...phir kyon aadha naam drop karna hai?...
#561 Posted by sadna on June 10, 2002 7:34:20 pm
And of course, the identities, career histories and pro/anti-Hindu views of Pakistani corp commanders are still open questions, conveniently.
#560 Posted by sadna on June 10, 2002 7:03:05 pm
tahmed321 #558
``I refused to change the subject and get you off the hook``
I don`t want to be `taken off the hook by you`. I consider your use of this phrase extremely patronizing. I stand by everything I said, will say it again if need be and I would prefer you or anyone else take my comments seriously.
``And I will exercise my right to air my views on chowk even if you find them unbelievable.``
Exactly, so will I, though you find my views unbelievable and keep scolding me for them.
`` if you find my consistent calls for respect for all religions and communities false peity``
No, I find your consistent implication that you alone have respect for all religions and communities and that you get to declare which others do or donot, to be false peity.
If there is a `generalized` Pakistani mindset which debases things Hindu and a Hindutva mindset which debases things Muslim, both being debating points, my pointing these out doesnot constitute my disrespect for any community and religion and its arrogant on anyones part to brush off the issues by saying so.
``I refused to change the subject and get you off the hook``
I don`t want to be `taken off the hook by you`. I consider your use of this phrase extremely patronizing. I stand by everything I said, will say it again if need be and I would prefer you or anyone else take my comments seriously.
``And I will exercise my right to air my views on chowk even if you find them unbelievable.``
Exactly, so will I, though you find my views unbelievable and keep scolding me for them.
`` if you find my consistent calls for respect for all religions and communities false peity``
No, I find your consistent implication that you alone have respect for all religions and communities and that you get to declare which others do or donot, to be false peity.
If there is a `generalized` Pakistani mindset which debases things Hindu and a Hindutva mindset which debases things Muslim, both being debating points, my pointing these out doesnot constitute my disrespect for any community and religion and its arrogant on anyones part to brush off the issues by saying so.
#559 Posted by tahmed321 on June 10, 2002 6:34:27 pm
Stuka #550 I am surprised that you think the choice is not between war and peace, but war and war by other means. This is at odds with the post you wrote a couple of weeks back at the height of the current round of tensions. I agree that women and children and farmers keep dying on the borders from shelling.
I see both sides heading toward peace - due to the grim realities of nuclear war (with decision makers on both sides personally risking death, their nationalistic fervor and dreams of glory rapidly disappear), and due to international pressures (who realize that they could have the fallout entering their lungs at some point). I think the Day of the Mullah is already over in Pakistan as a result. The next few months and years will I am sure prove me correct.
I dont think therefore that it is too early to start changing the tone of Indo-Pakistan relations now. So, hope you will continue to stay above the Indo-Pak armchair warriors on chowk.
I see both sides heading toward peace - due to the grim realities of nuclear war (with decision makers on both sides personally risking death, their nationalistic fervor and dreams of glory rapidly disappear), and due to international pressures (who realize that they could have the fallout entering their lungs at some point). I think the Day of the Mullah is already over in Pakistan as a result. The next few months and years will I am sure prove me correct.
I dont think therefore that it is too early to start changing the tone of Indo-Pakistan relations now. So, hope you will continue to stay above the Indo-Pak armchair warriors on chowk.
#558 Posted by tahmed321 on June 10, 2002 6:34:27 pm
sadna #556 You can keep saying ``nope``, ``nope`` all all you like. 2 plus 2 is still 4. You can keep ducking the issue that got this exchange going (namely the bigotry evidenced in your our post about the ``generalized pakistani mind``) by changing the subject and talking about the corp commanders in Pakistan. I refused to change the subject and get you off the hook, so in your latest post you accuse me of attacking you personally and of false piety. Let me therefore respond that I dont need anyone`s approval on chowk since I am not here to make money or run for elections or win popularity contests. Nevertheless, I have been factual, and certainly not rude, in my criticism of your views. That does not mean personal attacks. And I will exercise my right to air my views on chowk even if you find them unbelievable. However, the views I express are those to be expected from a normal, intelligent person not from a saint: if you find my consistent calls for respect for all religions and communities, concern for the suffering poor of the subcontinent, peace rather than violence, to be false piety, therefore, then I think you have a problem with your way of thinking. Rather than arguing and being clever, you would be better of reflecting on your way of thinking.
I will now let you have the last word. Or you can chose not to respond since in light of what I said in my last sentence. NOW I am being pious.
I will now let you have the last word. Or you can chose not to respond since in light of what I said in my last sentence. NOW I am being pious.
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