The Perfect Murder

re. Assad_K #489, rsridhar #507

Guys, since we`re not loathe to provide anecdotes here, let me relate some experiences with Indian co-workers and `roomies` in GA in 2000,2001. The 5-6 Madrassis I querried didn`t seem to know much about Pakistan at all (``Are your women allowed to go out unaccompanied?``), but did express a certain suspicions about indian Muslims, who ``side with Pakistan at times of conflict``. The Norhterners, despite their greater awareness of Pak lifestyles, would generally prefer me as a dinner and movie buddy over their Southern compatriots. Maybe perceiving me as a Christian made a difference.

In any event, Assad, ignorance hardly amounts to hatred, nO? I`ve been asked similar questions re. Pak women status by Yanks. I remember on a trip to Bombay back in the mid-80`s, striking up a conversation with some teens in a disco who didn`t even know where Paksitan was! I assure you every one of my urban compatriots knew not only where India was but every detail of it`s devious, expansionist designs too.

Will be conducting a little survey on Muslim kids` attitudes and perceptions about Hindus/Indians sometime soon. Will post results here.

Two countries were created after the end of WW II.

It was Israel and Pakistan.

Israel has always existed as a country and distinct geographical region from bilical times and before but pakistan as we know of has never existed. It did not exist before 1942.

British were in a hurry to call and shape a country called Pakistan. Pakistan should have included areas of Zhob, Quetta, Peshwar and Surab. But to give away Rawalpindi and Lahore was icing on the cake. It belonged to India.

...damn, now even DRUMZ is laying the smack down on ylh...too easy given how many stupid things the guy says...

FAYAZ KABIL/REUTERS



http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0607/p06s01-wosc.html

Christian Science Monitor

Amid din, Kashmiri voice lost

Heavy mortar shelling continued yesterday as India and Pakistan continued war rhetoric.

By V.K. Shashikumar | Special to The Christian Science Monitor

SRINAGAR – A black funeral shroud hangs lightly over the grave of Abdul Ghani Lone, the slain separatist leader who has turned into a cult hero here.

Mr. Lone was a moderate member of the 23-party Kashmiri Muslim separatist alliance, The All Party Hurriyet Conference (APHC). But his assassination on May 21 has elevated him, like many others, to a martyr`s status.

Some here believe he was killed because he criticized jihadi terrorist groups in Kashmir. Ironically, he now lies buried among those who would have wanted him dead. Spiritual leaders, moderate separatists, die-hard pro-Pakistan separatists, and militants from groups like Harkat-ul-Ansar and Hizb-ul-Mujahideen are all buried here. The ``Kashmir cause,`` it seems, attains unification in death.

But those still alive and championing it are as different as chalk from cheese. There are those who want autonomy within the framework of a genuinely federal Indian Union; while others promote the cause of azadi, or independence. Still others want to be united with Pakistan or India.

A simmering political angst nurtures Kashmiri Muslims` alienation from India. The distance between New Delhi and Srinagar has grown over the past five months, and Kashmiris say they feel that they are pawns in the India–Pakistan hostility.

``We want peace,`` says a Kashmiri youth sitting on the steps leading to the graveyard. ``Nobody wants war, deaths, and violence. The only way out is for India, Pakistan, and Kashmiris to look for a permanent solution.``

The mood on the street is a mix of suspicion, distrust, and anger at the political situation.

During the last 13 years, Kashmiris say, they have learned to be cynically dismissive of New Delhi while harboring a deep distrust toward the Indian security forces, who they say have consistently harassed them.

India officially admits that 33,000 have died in the Kashmir conflict, while Kashmiris claim it`s twice that number. A number of human rights groups, including Human Rights Watch and the Human Rights Commission of India, report widespread violations by Indian security forces, including hundreds of custodial deaths and the rape of young girls and women.

The human-rights violations by Indian forces have hardened the anti-India sentiment in the Kashmir valley.

``Resolving the Kashmir tragedy cannot just mean that New Delhi transfers power to the state of Jammu and Kashmir,`` says a prominent pro-autonomy leader, Mehbooba Mufti. Ms. Mufti, president of People`s Democratic Party, says New Delhi will have to leave the political process to the will of the people here. ``New Delhi cannot dictate terms in Jammu and Kashmir. It will have to give the people the democratic right to vote in a free and fair elections.``

The common refrain in the Kashmir valley is that the Indian government will never organize ``free and fair`` elections. They point to the 1987 elections here – widely seen to be rigged for the National Conference Party – which were generally believed to have sparked a violent rebellion against Indian rule.

This confidence, however, is not shared by a majority of Kashmiri Muslims, who call for holding elections under the watchful eyes of independent monitors.

The mood here flies in the face of a recent opinion poll commissioned by the Kashmir Friends Society, which is active in nongovernmental conflict resolution initiatives in Kashmir. The results showed that 61 percent of Kashmiris (in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir) want to remain with India. The Muslims in the Kashmir valley have rejected the results of the opinion poll as ``contrived,`` while others questioned the methodology used.

Regardless of the poll`s findings, many in Kashmir demand that New Delhi has the right to tackle the problem of terrorism in Indian Kashmir, but they say it`s unacceptable that Kashmiri Muslims continue to be threatened by the Indian security forces.

``We look at the Kashmir problem in two dimensions – external and internal,`` says Mufti. ``The external dimension that relates to Pakistan`s support to cross-border terrorism in Kashmir and India is something that has actively engaged New Delhi. But what is more important is the internal dimension of the Kashmir tragedy. How can New Delhi ignore the trauma, pain, and suffering of the Kashmiri people? How can the daily killings, custodial deaths, and rapes be ignored?``

Social workers in Indian Kashmir say New Delhi`s first priority should be helping Kashmiri people. ``The human tragedy in Kashmir is often forgotten by New Delhi,`` says Zahoor Ahmed Tak, chairman of an orphanage. Mr. Tak says the Jammu and Kashmir state government`s own estimates reveal that there are more than 100,000 orphans here.

``Violence in Kashmir has ripped apart the Kashmiri society – crime rates have gone up, cases of post-traumatic stress syndrome have shot up dramatically, drug addiction is on the rise, the suicide graph is increasing every year, and family life has been disrupted,`` says Bashir Dabla, a leading sociologist at Kashmir University.

It is, therefore, not surprising that many here have challenged the Indian government to hold a referendum or plebiscite. The 1948 United Nations Security Council resolution called on India to hold a plebiscite in the region. It also required Pakistan withdraw its troops from the area of Kashmir it controlled, which it has not done.

The ruling National Conference, headed by Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister, Farooq Abdullah, has rejected this contention. He says the separatists (grouped under the umbrella organization APHC) should give up their ideal goal of a separate Kashmir and instead run for office under the current Indian Constitution.

``Let [the separatists] prove their representative character in the elections,`` says Omar Abdullah, India`s Deputy Foreign Affairs Minister.

Mr. Abdullah admits that some sections of the Kashmiri society are disillusioned with various processes of governance and democracy and it is the responsibility of the political parties and the state government to reverse this.

Mufti says that the conflict in Kashmir has mostly affected the Muslims in the Kashmir Valley.

``It is understandable that the Kashmiri Hindus and Sikhs in Jammu and the Kashmiri Buddhists in Ladakh would want to remain part of India,`` says Mufti, whose party stands for an autonomous status for Indian administered Kashmir.

``But the fear psychosis in the valley is tremendous because the Kashmiri Muslims have been the worst affected by militancy and counter-militancy operations,`` she says.

Ref Yasser Latif Hamdani #: 476

[Besides being back in Pakistan has made me a lot more secure in what we really are.. no amount of barking will change the facts!!! Please switch on one of our channels... Indus Vision, ARY, Indus Music.. to see the truth. Thank God for Pakistan... the liberal progressive and Modern Pakistan which is a light to the world.]

Yasser, man, I love your optimism regarding Pakistan.

I just read in the Indian newspapers that a couple, Sameena and Palraj, were murdered in cosmopolitan, modern Bangalore.

Sameena is Muslim and Palraj is Christian. Sameena`s family were against the marriage and were pestering Palraj to convert to Islam. Palraj refused to do so and both were forced to frequently change residences in order to stay one step ahead of the murderers. Their luck ran out. Their child was kidnapped and both were murdered by Sameena`s family.

This in a country with some 12% Muslims. Can you imagine what life is like in a country with 98% Muslims such as Pakistan?

Progressive, modern Pakistan?

Thanks for the laugh.

To get back to the topic of this piece. There have been several articles on Kashmir written on Chowk, some by me. I had never seen anyone making sympathetic sounds about Abdul Gani Lone and his ability to bring about peace. The Indian government too was not exactly in awe of him. So why this sudden turn-coat behaviour? Anyway, the Hurriyat has reiterated that the moot question is not of infiltration but of the Kashmiri freedom struggle, which is older than cross-border terrorism.

I would also like to quote Shabbir Shah, chairman of the Democratic Freedom Party, who quit the Hurriyat. This is what he had to say in a recent interview to TOI: “I had also gone for the meeting. I do not believe that Lone’s killers were recognised by anyone present there. If they were recognised, their names should have come forward by now…I do not believe that Lone had ever given his consent to participate in the elections…He felt that for the coming elections to take on a representative character, it was important for different parties to participate, but that could only take place if the Indian government started serious deliberations on this entire Kashmir imbroglio.”

The Indian government is not interested. For those who still believe that this government is not misusing the army, they should have checked out their campaign for the Goa assembly elections. Pictures of the soldiers splashed around to gain undeserved mileage.

And another quote dated June 2, 2002 from Praveen Togadia of the VHP: “Ab jahan jahan Godhra hoga wahan wahan Gujarat bhi hoga.” This was not a personal opinion but voiced at a meeting of senior VHP leaders at Ayodhya. And I am being asked why I have not condemned Godhra. Readers will recall that there have been many ‘theories’ propounded about how Godhra could have happened. I did not get into the ‘diabolical schemes’. I did not justify them. And I did not go around asking Hindus to apologise for Gujarat.

Everyone is liberal enough when a Sikh (Harpreet) asks a Pakistani (Hamidm) to do a trash job on the VHP. But an Indian Muslim???? Nah. You are assumed to be a Pakistani agent…

I also wonder how a taxi ride can make people discover what’s going on in the minds of burqa-clad creatures (PS: political correctness is the last resort of the scoundrel)…if it is sought to be conveyed that they can walk about in some suburban lane without any worry despite being easily identifiable as belonging to a certain community, then it is a darned patronising attitude.

Samina (#479):

Thank you! All I can say is that the easiest way out for some people is to call someone a hypocrite. (And the problem is that Muslims who do not weave carpets or make brass vessels are called elitist.) If it makes them feel good, fine. There is no way I am going to list out the contribution of my family to the less advantaged in my country, because I think it is cheap to do so. And my own contribution too will not find mention unless it is part of my writing. I honestly do not need to prove my credentials here to anonymous people. There are millions of Indians who go through a good deal of privation before they can achieve anything; they do not use that as a bullet to shoot others with. The other strategy, if they want to sound reasonable, is to play what their version of a reasonable Muslim is against me. I do know for certain that Zafar does not enjoy this. Besides, I live in India and my perspective/situation is certainly different. Why, following the Bombay riots, even my mother could not understand why I was so personally agitated. I know that had I not visited the affected areas, I too would have reacted differently.

There are a handful of people who do have a problem with me. But as one Chowkie said, when they get into personal attack mode not many, except their type, respond to those posts. We have an example right here of someone who started by being nasty with me. Not one person responded to him. But now that he is talking about a different subject, he has got into an interesting discussion that I too might want to join in. So…respect comes out of a natural sense of justice. It sometimes takes time…

ana (#365):

I think your mother has a point about being proud of you for speaking out. Regarding misrepresentation, it is so tough. It has happened a couple of times with me, and this after the guy had interviewed me for four hours! Of course, I was told to ‘understand’, as I was part of the media. Sigh. When I started out in my career, I was once doing a ‘soft’ story on breast-feeding, how mothers feel about it, the guilt of not nursing, etc…I was just out of college. Knew nothing. I thought I had written a heart-rending account. However, one charming young mother who I had interviewed called after it was published and she was weeping. The editor, a smart woman, had dropped one line, where she said she had nursed her baby for a few months. Now without this line, this woman felt that her in-laws, husband and relatives would be upset. It hurt her, so both of us were howling away…and I at least had no idea why :)

So, don’t let one bad experience get to you. Often there is a communication gap.

[Don`t let `em get you down Farzana! Courage!]

Yo! Reminds me of a letter I got recently from a journalist in a regional paper. He asked me where I got the courage from. Strange. I never think of it as courage. When one is in tune with one’s convictions even something written impulsively is part of one’s identity. Which is why I have never regretted anything I have written.

Nuff said :)

Regards,

Farzana

Yasser

Welcome home :)))) (Collective ‘I told you so’ rents the Chowk air!!)

After you have finished eating etc, please let me know what the young people there have to say about the possibilities of a nuclear or any war with India. Also, a personal request: Can you check if calls can be made to India? I have been trying to call Pak, different cities at different times, but I just hear a buzzing sound.

And don’t let those comments about your family get to you…

There are balanced voices in the media in the west making themselves heard after all. Reporters are beginning to write about the role of India in the crisis in the subcontinent.

An editorial from the Seattle Times has this to say:

``(Musharraf) wants to rid Pakistan of terrorists and many Muslim fundamentalists — a nearly impossible task — to get on with the job of building his country into a democratic and modern Islamic nation. He is having elections in October for the parliament, from which will be selected a prime minister to head the government.

He is very determined and very straight — unusually so for a politician, especially a Pakistani politician. Pakistan has been plagued with leaders that have not been so — I have known many of them over the past 30 years.``

He goes on to say:

``Why would India want to go to war? Probably the overwhelming reason is its Hindu nationalist government has never accepted Pakistan as a reality and always wanted to eliminate it.``

Complete article at:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/editorialsopinion/134467029_indiapakistan04.html

The LATimes has an editorial that points out:

``In fact, India has been playing the U.S. like a violin throughout this crisis. It is getting from Washington the carte blanche it seeks, which is to advance the agenda in regard to Kashmir that India has sought for years.``

Complete article at:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-000038690jun02.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Dcomment%2Dopinions

And the Independent has this to say:

``...that it is Mr Vajpayee who is primarily responsible for having provoked this grave and dangerous confrontation. He has cynically exploited the rhetoric of George Bush`s war against terrorism to rouse nationalist indignation against Kashmiri separatists, and he was at it again yesterday.``

Complete article at: http://argument.independent.co.uk/leading_articles/story.jsp?story=301639

Reply Sadna # 513



“Who ARE the [Pakistani] corp commanders, what are their histories and careers, what are their positions on various issues, can anyone knowledgeable enlighten us?”

My websearch tells me that they are non-veg. Apart from that….illai.

tahmed,

Everyone likes to focus on the negative. Zofran bibis sentencing to death-by-stoning was greeted by much wringing-of-hands by Pakistanis as evidence of Pakistani barbarism and smug glee by Indians for the same reason. I notice that noone has seen fit to comment on the fact that she has been acquited and set free by the courts.

#479 saminashah

FWIW, by normal definition of gender differences, i`d qualify as a man, rather than a woman. Other than that, thanks for your kind words.

#499 layman

Leave the old man be. He`s battling a phantom of his own creation. Soysauce this, soysauce that - the man is working out his bigotry in public...

Have you heard the story of the sadhu who is destined for narakam (hell) when the prostitute in his neighborhood is taken to swargam (paradise)? The sadhu tries to convince Yama that he had been fasting and chanting Ramarama while the prostitute was (gasp!) entertaining clients. He shows Yama the notes he has been keeping on how many clients visited the prostitute and at what times, etc. As he is saying all this it dawns on the sadhu why he is to go to hell.

Our friend harimau has been pestering me to explain the lyrics of some the ``poets`` he is allergic to but is fascinated enough by them nonetheless to warrant such close attention to the garbage they turn out. harimau is our ultimate sewer-inspector.

Unkalji, i`m not a movie buff. The last tamil movie that i was forced to watch was hey ram and i was utterly revolted by the violence. On the other hand most indians (& most tamils) seem to devote their weekends to watching all the crap that they turn out from bombay, madras or hyderabad and a large majority of them, as far as i could tell, are brahmins. So there!

RDesikan Saxena and Zafar

Before we get carried away South has people who do not apply coconut oil , who are definitely tall and and also those who can definitely give thugs from the North a run for their money when it comes to notoriety.

YLH: ``If someone makes heinous use of pearl`s murder the way your countrymen are doing.. I will resort to a much more befitting description of them.. ie dogs... Whatever my age... I am far ahead in maturity than you are...``

Pearl??? I am from Canada, What the fukk is canada doing? And u call the wrong person a dog and he will slap the bullsh1t outta you. I was referring ONLY to ur assinine comment ``Or maybe its acceptable `Indian` behavior.`` To extrapolate the act of a few onto a country is the mark of stupidity not maturity.

rsridar: ``Looks like you are speaking in front of a mirror.``

10 Marks for attempt. 2 for Style.

MT: Idries shah was sophomorically trying to prove that everything on earth came from Sufism. The attempt was very weak. However, sufism and zen buddhism are very very similar (not with orthodox Islam). Zen originated in the 12th century, so it is plausable that there was contact with them and sufis, but i doubt zen is of sufi origin. Buddha has several africoid statues showing him with cornrows. It is likely he was an NDN black.

Trilly: I am out for a few days so take ya time.

re:Reply #: 494

sadna,

Thanks for your post.

Looks like i have displeased tahmed sahib. But i was trying to make a point, which is, that Pak has to change its mindset and view Indians as friends if any progress were to be made. I know i sound funny saying this in these troubled times. But, like you i feel that this mindset has been carefully nurtured by the Paki establishment for many decades (it obviously benefits the Army to have India projected as the enemy). It has been drummed into the minds of young and old alike: India is the enemy and we need to fear Indians. I do not remember growing up in India with the message that Pak was an enemy and i needed to fear Pakistanis. I also agree that this mindset is not much different from the Hindutva mindset of the BJP and Sangh parivar. In fact people of the extreme fringe have often used similar ideologies. I was amazed to hear Louis Farrakhan (some years ago in C-Span) accuse the whites in America of a plot to render the black youth as drug addicts. How could there be so many drug addicts among us, he thundered? It is so convenient to shift the onus to some known enemy than to confront reality.

Paksitanis should wake up to the fact that their worst enemy is the Army and the ISI and not the people of India. We may kick BJP out of power tomorrow and elect a more sensible govt but unless Pakis are able to send Army to the barracks and compel Mushy to hold elections for a meaningful democracy, i am afraid there won`t be peace in the subcontinent.

Sridhar

tahmed321 #511
Tsk tsk, how can you bring peace on the subcontinent unless you use AT LEAST a few thousand words and half a dozen posts to diss sadna on chowk ? Getting lazy?
Another thing, everyone knows Vajpayee, Fernandes, Advani etc by name and their words, positions and career are all part of the public record. One can call them names, criticise their statements, recall their past record going back decades. But no one knows their Pakistani counterpart in decisionmaking, the corp commanders, who they are and what they think, what have they done before they became corp commanders. Who ARE the corp commanders, what are their histories and careers, what are their positions on various issues, can anyone knowledgeable enlighten us?

On sadna: In posting your usual rubbish about the ``generalized mindset`` of Pakistanis, you reveal your own very specific mindset. I wont state the obvious on the nature of this very specific mindset.

Same to rsridhar for posting an article of which he obviously approves titled to dehumanize Pakistanis.

For a more objective look on these matters, chowk readers should read Kissinger`s indepth and well-balanced article a couple of days ago in the Washington Post on the Indo-Pak mess. Being well-balanced, neither the Indian chauvinists on chowk nor the Paki chauvinists thought it fit to post it.