I am Ashamed and I Apologize

A query, that perhaps our Indian friends could help with:

One of the most surprising things about the Gujrat riots, is the lack of criticism from prominent Indian Muslims. Maybe, I missed it. But did people like Premji, Shahrukh, and others in their category, say anything about the massacres. If not, then why not?

Based on this, how exactly can Dr. Kalam justify becoming a BJP candidate for the Presidentship of India. One could understand if he were nominated by the Congress. But isn`t he hurting the Indian Muslim cause, and in a way justifying the Gujrat massacres, by accepting the BJP offer?

Or am I missing something?

very important article and emotionally written and i think that was the best part about it. i am a free thinker who doesnot want to associate with any religion but 9/11 pushed me to be sorry and ashamed for all the muslims. unfortunately i didn ot have the words and courage as you showed and i am impressed by that. i believe that people with your mindset on either part of the subcontinent border must continue to write to start some level of peace b/w these unfortunate countries.

Shah #130

{If you are proving or rather disproving Vajpayees ``alleged`` speech based on rationale}

I mentioned Vajpayee`s record during his long career as a sanity check. He`s never been known to say anything even remotely resembling ``All Muslims are terrorists`` or ``Muslims and other minorities should be second-class citizens of India`` or the like. He had a general reputation as a peace-maker and a nice guy even among his political opponents. And it would be political suicide for Vajpayee to declare ``All Muslims are terrorists`` - if that is indeed what he truly believes - when he needs the political support of the Samata, Trinamul and TDP, none of whom can afford to alienate large Muslim constituencies.



I am not happy that Vajpayee was equivocal about Hindu communalists in Gujarat when he should have condemned them unreservedly. And it is not the first occasion when he has been equivocal when he should have been blunt. But it just doesnt seem to be true that Vajpayee said that ``wherever there are Muslims, there is terrorism``; it is quite clear that he was referring only to `jehadi Islam`. I addressed myself squarely to this point of fact. People who think I was ``defending the BJP``, etc. etc. are misinterpreting my motives.

{WHY not put your ``Alleged`` charges of random pilferage & mayheim by Muslim minority of India unleashed on innocent & hapless hindus to the same type of rationale?}

Actually I would do EXACTLY THAT, unless presented with very solid evidence that, say, Muslims somewhere wnt on a completely unprovoked rampage.

{then why you insist in your later posts to incriminate Indian muslims}

Excuse me? WHERE have I incriminated Indian Muslims? I haven`t said a word against Indian Muslims, and I never will. I don`t like Islamists, and political Islam - a different matter entirely. I detest Hindutvadis equally intensely. I have no problem with Christianity - or Hinduism - or Islam - as a personal faith, as long as it is tempered by a common sense knowledge and understanding of the world.

{If articulate & foreign educated,person like you , cant see your own biase prejudice & double standard what hope for minorities right can there be in India?}

You seem to be jumping to conclusions about my background and worldview based on a paucity of evidence. Could it be that I was born into a minority faith, a Judaic one perhaps, and that I consequently have a very strong vested interest in secularism in India? To let you know where I stand on Hindu communalists - I think Bajrangis and VHPites deserve a sound thrashing. But it doesn`t justify misrepresenting facts about what Vajpayee said.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re: ankitjhingan # 127

``...and if some of the bad muslims want godhra....then y not gujarat afterwards....if u have read GITA....or even Kuran....a popular saying goes in each and every sacred book....its being mentioned that u will bore the brunt of ur fellows if u have done something wrong....and no religion in the world could have justified what was being done with innocent Lord Rama`s devotees on February 26....if any of u can justify it....``

What crap is this? It is this kind of thinking that is our/humanity`s GREATEST enemy.

Look, get it straight. NOTHING justified/justifies mass murders that occurred in Gujarat. Similarly, NOTHING justified/justifies Godhra.

NO ifs, buts, and excuses of anykind. Otherwise, there is NO difference between you and the Jihadis ot other sundry fanatics who kill innocent men, women, and children in pursuit of some sick fantasy of theirs.

Romair #98

{I am continously amazed at the lenghts certain Indians will go to to defend the BJP.}

I am continuously amazed and amused at the lengths to which certain Pakistani ideologues will go to ignore what has been placed in plain view before them.

{I have no interest in misinformation.}

Absolutely astonishing if true ... I could have sworn it was not the case, what with your trotting out neo-Nazi William Baker as an `neutral source` on Kashmir, Islamist fellow-traveller and amateur jourmalist Eric Margolis as `world-recognized authority` on the Afghan War, Brian Cloughley as an `impartial authority` on the Indian armed forces, etc. etc. ad amusem.

{You have conveniently left out all the controversial parts of the speech}

The `article` I have quoted from Outlook is a COMPLETE TRANSLATION of the speech. In #90, I quoted the extended remarks on Islam and Muslims on page 2 of my link IN THEIR ENTIRETY. There is a very brief mention of Muslims in paragraph 4 which I left out. Here it is - you can judge whether the omission is significant:

{{This is our tradition (sanskriti... Culture?) of treating all religions equally (lit: to view all the religions with one vision). But still, charges are being levelled that secularism is under threat. Who are these people levelling these allegations? What does `secularism` mean for them? When the Muslims had not arrived in India, when the Christians had not stepped foot here, even then India was secular. It is not that it`s become secular after their arrival.}}

If you think there are any other controversial parts that I `conveniently left out`, please go to the link:

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?sid=1&fodname=20020420&fname=atal

and quote them.

{{and have only quoted one article from Outlook India, which tries to put a spin on the speech.}

How so? The Outlook translation I provided is of the COMPLETE SPEECH. You can see the ENTIRE CONTEXT of Vajpayee`s remarks; that should take care of any complaints of `selective quotation`.

I URGE EVERYONE WHO`S INTERESTED to revisit AlephNull #90 and the links I provided there and see for themselves. Don`t take my word for. And on no account take Romair`s word: his record so far is extremely dubious - to put it politely.

{I would encourage you to look at all the Indian and international sources which quoted the speech. I am providing some of them below.}

The sources you`ve provided DO NOT PROVIDE THE COMPLETE SPEECH. For that precise reason they are vulnerable to charges of `selective quotation` and spin, whereas Duggal`s translation isn`t. The CNN article [http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/04/18/india.vajpayee/], by the normally reliable Mark Tully, has almost no quotation, instead it provides its own very brief and misleading parapharase.

{{Vajpayee maintained that wherever there were Muslims in the world there was strife and suggested that Hindus had the right to decide the freedom to be allowed to other religions.

``We have allowed Hindus and Muslims to say their prayers,`` the Indian leader said.}}

Tully is one of the few Westerners reporting on India who understand any Indian languages - nevertheless his precis misrepresents what Vajpayee said.

The Milli Gazette article (http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01052002/0105200253) quotes more extensively - but still selectively. I am especially suspicious of the following quote:

{{The whole world heard Vajpayee say it live on TV on April 12 in Goa: ‘Jahan Jahan Musalman hain ghul milkar nahi rahte hain (wherever there are Muslims they don’t want to live in peace)’.}}

As Sadna#102 has pointed out, a vital AISE (such) has been omitted.

Sheela Bhatt`s article in Rediff (http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/apr/12bhatt.htm) is also marred by selective quotation and distorted paraphrase.

There is really no alternative but to look at the complete speech to form a fair impression. Which is why I provided access to Duggal`s translation. Ignoring it isn`t going to help your cause.

hey....all my sweet muslim buds....plzzzz try 2 understand that all of us hindus (read Indians) r not bad....like all muslims r not bad....like u r not bad....but plzzzz dnt b presumptous while making any mindset abt ur hindus....and....mind u all....Mr. Jinnah spoilt our freedom party by asking 4 pakistan...and if some of the bad muslims want godhra....then y not gujarat afterwards....if u have read GITA....or even Kuran....a popular saying goes in each and every sacred book....its being mentioned that u will bore the brunt of ur fellows if u have done something wrong....and no religion in the world could have justified what was being done with innocent Lord Rama`s devotees on February 26....if any of u can justify it....I would b more than happy 2 listen 2 any *LOGICAL *.....read.... *LOGICAL *....mails....plzzzz dnt say that u all were also tolerating the brunt of us hindus in India....the conditiosn of muslims r much better than it is in pakistan....and mind u....u pakis r not the tough types....as if u ppl would have been tough then u would nt have seen some 3 - 4 military dictators who sucked ur blood....and still u can very proudly sing ur national anthem on august 14....I have full sympathies with u....plzzzz tell me....y....y....all this hatred....chowk.com was established 2 make the interaction between Indians and pakis more sweeter and ofcourse 2 spread love and peace....but I feel for the guy who started chowk.com as his dreams have been shattered....I sympathesis with u....owner of chowk.com....but u cant change the mindset of some ppl who r into this world 2 divide the world frm one big harmonious family into Hindus, pakis, chritians....u knw....I went 2 one paki chat room...and I aksed if I m allowed 2 chat over there....one very rude paki said....that I must better leave....but other pakis came 2 my defence and said that ofcourse I can talk 2 them....and they always loved talking 2 their Indian brothers....Hindu brotehrs....when that rude paki asked why they r allowing me 2 chat in all paki room....they said that its becoz I m their brother....and noone can say no 2 their brother....I was moved....those were such a nice brothers....and u r such rude creatures (I m addressing u as creatures as u dnt deserve 2 b called humans....leave alone pakis)....my mail is not 4 all the pakis....but only 2 those who said that they pity the mentality of jinnah that the Indian muslims will live in India....peacefully....I belive u guys dnt read newspapers....come out of Ptv....they r making more fools out of u....kashmiris says....read....muslims in our Kashmir says that they prefer being the part of our gr8 India....they said that the conditions of muslims in pakistan r worse than the conditions of muslims in India....and 2 the whole world....we r not just dhoti clad innocent Indians....we have shown this 2 ur paki govts in past also....in 1948, 1965, 1971....how can u forget kargil....and plzzzz now stop saying that if ur cricket team keeps the logo, ``proud to be a paki`` on their shirts....r they really proud?....come back 2 reality....this is the real world

I agree with you Hemendra....our fellow hindus have let our hindu community down....we....all pure hindus....apologize to our fellow muslim brothers and sisters....we can`t give you back what our some foolish hindus brothers have taken away from you....but we will try not to repeat this incident anywhere in India....and in the whole world....please continue loving us as you all our friends were being doing all the years through....Luv Ankit

Rsidhar #116: ``Vajpayee may be telling the truth``

Do you agree that he actually did state this in his speech? That is what was being discussed.

Considering the fact that his own party, under his leaderhip, organized the killing of over 2000 of his own Muslim citizens, do you think has any moral standing to make such a statement?

If what you state is true, then in your opinion, in India, do you think that your own Muslim countrymen cause and create all the violence? After all, you have stated that Vajpayee is telling the truth.

``The world over, some muslims are doing a lot of bad things (blowing up buildings, killing innocent people etc), many muslims are watching helplessly (the so called ``silent majority) and a miniscule minority has come out against islamic militancy.``

Hindu Tamil Tigers carry out more suicide attacks than all the other suicide attackers of all the religions of the world combined. They just don`t get a lot of press coverage.

Based on that, wouldn`t one have to say that Hindus, ``are doing a lot of bad things.`` I have yet to see any Hindu condemn any of these. At the same time, the Tamil Tigers are a very small percentage of the total Hindu population. Based on that, the Muslims that carry out suicide attacks against innocent people are even a smaller percentage of the total Muslim population.

Do you think one has right to condemn all of Hinduism because Hindus carry out more suicide attacks than all the ohter religions combine?

I would be interested in your comments.....

PM: Where`s all the intensity? Please continue callin me a jackazz (id prefer u do that in person though).

``The point was your liberal use of blankets, and your glaring failure to bring circumstances and history to bear on situations (be it on matters of race, ethnicity or religion)``

Give ONE example. If i say the FACT that ``the white race has committed the most genocides in history`` you will say ``not all white people are bad.`` The blanket statement was generic, of course not all people are X. U are the only person who must have this explained to him.

``that`s the thing about prejudice…. there`s often nothing rational about it (so there goes your attempted defence :) )``

LOL, PM u do not know me, stop the acting. Your internet based inferences are sophomoric.

``read: you didn`t HAVE to defend yourself if I was being so lazy anyway) :)``

So im a narcissist if I answer and even if i dont. Try using a lil bit of logic please. If you look ``inward,`` u should know that Humbility infringes upon HONESTY.

Im gonna be out for a few days and theres no chance in hell that daddy can carry the torch, so take care and come correct next time.

Hey DRUMzie:

The point isn`t whether it was ``most`` or ``all``; the point was your liberal use of blankets, and your glaring failure to bring circumstances and history to bear on situations (be it on matters of race, ethnicity or religion)

Most of your friends are desi? Hey, my brother, the biggest Paki-hater you`ll find that side of the Atlantic, has mostly Paki friends and would kill for a plate of mutton bryani. See… that`s the thing about prejudice…. there`s often nothing rational about it (so there goes your attempted defence :) )

``I know people 14 years old who have written poems that are outta this world, 17 year olds who are 10 times deeper then I, so there goes ur narcissist crack. This is too easy...``

Hey, it`s okay manny…chill… I didn`t ASK you to prove my point about narcissism :) (read: you didn`t HAVE to defend yourself if I was being so lazy anyway) :)

``Why do u assume this internet alter ego. In real life ur quiet, unassuming and delicate, lol. Who are u trying to fool?``

Gee, I bow to the power you weild, O omnipotent one, Ye with knowledge of others who have no knowledge of Thineself!

That said, didn`t Daddyboy ever tell you that 10 minutes with yourt back facing a guy visiting your place for the first time isn`t quite enough take proper stock? :)

rgds, (both to you and pa! :) )

Muslims in the dock


Rafiq Zakaria


Sometime in 1985, on the basis of such verses, a petition was filed to ban the Quran as a threat to peace and communal harmony before the Calcutta High Court. It was admitted by the judge who was satisfied that there was a prima facie case. However, when it came for final hearing before Justice C.C. Basak, after hearing both the sides at length, he dismissed the petition, stating that “in my opinion it cannot be said that the Quran offers any insult to any other religion. It does not reflect any other deliberate or malicious intention of outraging the religious feeling of non-Muslims. Isolated passages picked out from here and there, read out of context, cannot change the position.” Thereafter, no appeal was filed against the judgment.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/140602/detide01.asp

Borders in the Mind: Glitter and Gloom in Gujarat

HARSH MANDER

Our agony deepens when we encounter the defiant absence of remorse in mainstream Gujarati society. Ever since the early weeks after the massacre, the first impression when one alights at Ahmedabad is of its strident normalcy. Glittering shops, bustling roads, people engaged in their everyday business as though nothing is amiss. Barely kilometres away, in makeshift camps across the city, are one lakh people, brutalised, bereaved and destitute, whose agony seems of no concern to the rest of the city.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Articleshow.asp?art_id=12907217

Now that the war clouds seem to receding it is time to focus attention back to gujrat. Here is another letter from Gopal.



Friends

I have been in Ahmedabad for over 2 weeks....many of you have followed my journey and have been with me in spirit if not in person.

Perhaps you have read my last four mails.Perhaps they have stirred something inside you...or maybe find them tedious and depressing.

Either way,if you have got this far,then you have not hit the delete button when you saw my name on the mail.....if you dont like to read such stuff you could press delete now,for the picture is still very bleak.

To begin with let me say I cannot over emphasise the need for people to come here...whatever your skills may be you will be able to put them to good use, in the process of healing the wounds....but first come as pure and simple humans....people who still believe in the ideals of secularism, democracy, togetherness, interdependence, love and above all....insaaniyat....the idea that all humanity is one.This city needs such people ...

By urging you to come here,I dont want to encourage and add to the ``riot tourism`` that I already see around us... You will also find enough people here who are making a fortune out of this tragedy, both because of the destruction, and also from the process of relief.It may sicken you.

Most who come here even with good intentions still end up being blind to the ``real`` Ahmedabad,because everything seems so normal.Well one part of the city is always like that....McDonalds even had a gala opening of a new outlet in the midst of the riots (which were happening in the ``other`` part of the city) and there were huge queues on the first few days...

.....

... you and I have not been living in a filthy overcrowded camp for the last three months, not knowing how to answer the children`s questions.We can have a cup of tea or go the toilet without making a massive effort for it and the question of ridiculous, insensitive and insulting compensation amounts does not weigh on our minds day in and day out. Also we have never lost ``everything`` we owned and even if we had, we would still have the privelege of education. We are not being told by government officials that we are only ``guests`` in this country for another two months and after that we either leave or get
killed...

......

I know that there is suffering everywhere,probably in your own backyard, so why come here... well something about present day Ahmedabad puts many things in perspective... I guess it would be rare to find such extreme suffering and such extreme indifference co existing so close to each other. It will help you fully fathom the effect that propoganda and blatant lies can have on people so easily... When you press the rewind button and see how the situation developed you will realise that the same thing is happening very close to you and how you will be it`s next victim.You will then realise how dangerous ``acceptance`` can be, and that we are all guilty of this acceptance.You will know how we have ``consumed`` images of Bosnia, Israel,Kalahandi and Gujarat and how they have made us numb.

One friend said that what has happened here is like Aids....Gujarat can never be the same again, but we can prevent it elsewhere.

.....

Let me digress a little here...speaking of friends who have changed, I find the same with some of mine, especially those in the US....what is it with that place? I wonder why the VHP finds it so easy to spread their poison there? They tell me that I am wasting my time and that the Muslims have only got what they deserved...when I try to talk reason, I get the reply... where were you when this was happening in Kashmir...I want them to come here and meet a few freinds. Like 5 year old Irfan in the Shah Alam camp....he saw his aunt being raped and burnt by men who were shouting Jai Shri Ram.They wore khaki shorts and saffron banians.Irfan sings quite well and likes imli.When I got him to draw, he made the Indian flag. I dont know too much else about him... Nilofer is six, she wanted to see me dance to a Daler Mehndi tune and when I did, she smiled.Her mother told me that it was the first time she smiled since she saw her best friend, another 6 year old girl pulled out from her wheelchair, and hung on a tree.Nilofer does not know yet that her friend was burnt alive, because her mother took her inside.Well I am sorry I did nothing for Kashmir,truly sorry and am extremely guilty about it.....but I am sure that these kids did not deserve this... Neither did the Hindus in Kashmir or at Godhra. But if you think that killing innocents is the right way of avenging the deaths of other innocents then there is something fundamentally wrong with you.

Coming back to those who may be coming to Ahmedabad,when you visit camps please do not ask people to repeat these horrific stories.They are being made to relive these moments again and again... When they see an ``outsider`` like me they assume that I have come to hear their tales of woe and they start telling me about what they have gone through.The press makes them do it several times.The police too do it, supposedly for their ``investigations``. When they start telling me,I actually stop them midway and tell them that I know of stories more horrific than theirs. Which is true.

.....

You also need to know that although there has been relative calm for the last 15 days, there is always the chance that the situation may take a dive.There have been sporadic incidents almost everyday... there is also talk of ``Muslim`` retaliation with the help of Pakistan (Isn`t it amazing how Musharraf and the VHP make the job so much easier for each other?)... in which case there may be another small round of violence... then there is the impending Rath Yatra in the middle of July... what I mean is that you must remember before you call your travel agent that this is a ``disturbed`` area in that sense...

....

In fact what depressess me most is thought that there are some NGO`s here for whom this is a great ``professional`` opportunity....they are hesitant to share their information and resources.They are willing to buy riot footage from people at exorbitant prices, or carry suffering children to Delhi, as it can get them much funding. They dont seem keen to co ordinate with each other.....when there are such few people working for such an enormous tragedy the crying need is to be systematic so that you can maximise your output from the limited human and material resource... I dont see that happening the way it should be. I feel terrible when I see petty bickerings between camp organisers and allegations of hoarding and diversion of funds... I know that all this is just another manifestation of human nature...

I do get bogged down by depression.That`s when I go to the area which is the ray of hope... This is a small island of sanity called Ram Rahim Nagar.This area, inhabited by poor people, has always kept itself away from all this madness... and even in these trying times Hindus and Muslims live here in complete harmony.The inhabitants are amazing people.The place makes me wonder if I could have maintained my own sanity in the midst of a city like this.

.......

The mind may say that the situation is so hopeless that any effort will be in vain. My devious mind finds many other ways to discourage me but, so far I am hanging in there.There is no greater remedy than action... it helps both me and someone else. I was exteremely depressed before coming here....the little activity I do in the camps has helped me tremendously. Friends ask me if I have become an ``activist``, I reply no, I have merely become ``active``. I spend most of my time with the children who need my time,but here are just too many of them...

....

My friend Neeraj Sahay is trying to co ordinate filming efforts... he has worked out a good plan to use filmmakers and equipment in the way they will be most valuable... but there are too few of us,if any more come here do get in touch with us... your services and equipment will be extremely valuable. We can also guide others who have particular skills about how to best use their time and effort and whom to co ordinate with. And even those who may think they have no special skills but have the time and inclination.You could mail us on gurpalforpeace@hotmail.com or call at 079-6633914.

......

Some people have been asking us where to send money.This is a tricky question because you would want your hard earned money to go to the people who really need it.We too struggled with this for a while, visavis the money we had collected before coming here. I will soon be writing to you about how that money was spent.

If you like you could send them in the name of St. Xavier`s Social Service Society, and send to St. Xaviers Social Service Society, P.O. Box 4088, Navrangpura, Ahmedabad - 380009, Gujarat, India OR you could send in the name of SPRAT (that is Society for the Promotion of Rational Thinking) SF/8 Rajnagar Complex,Narayan Nagar Road, Near NID, Paldi, Amdavad 380007.

If you like you could send it to us at B4 Elite Flats, Jethabhai Park, Narayan Nagar Road,Paldi,Amdavad 380007.We will personally hand
over your cheques and get receipts.You could also help fund our effort as we need tapes and equipment.I will soon send more details about our effort and how you could help in that.

.....

If you dont agree with what I am saying then please do mail me... I fully realise that I may be wrong... about anything... each of us will find our own answers which will be applicable only to ourselves, but in such a situation it is important to share your thoughts. I also apologise if I hurt anyone by sharing their mails with others, but I feel it is extremely important now to talk about these things in the public
domain.....if you specifically tell me not to forward your mails to others I will of course comply....

You could think of several ways of helping out from wherever you are....please share these with others.

With faith and hope

Gurpal

Has anyone seen ``the Legend of Bhagat SIngh`` ??

Very interesting movie - would have been better w/o the bollywood masala. Interesting for 2 reasons - I had never heard the name associated witht he Freedom Struggle and second it portrays Gandhi as a snake. A bit confusing there!!

Ajay Devgan has done a good job.

re:Reply #: 98

Romair,

Vajpayee may be telling the truth (ie if what you allege is true and Sadna is wrong). Truth hurts. The world over, some muslims are doing a lot of bad things (blowing up buildings, killing innocent people etc), many muslims are watching helplessly (the so called ``silent majority) and a miniscule minority has come out against islamic militancy. For Islam to be understood correctly by non-muslims (as being really a religion of peace), let this ``silent majority`` come out openly against the militants and terrorists. I am still waiting for this to happen, even in this chowk forum.

Sridhar