Dissing Ideologies

Reply #: 309

cutandpaste,

I quote from the article (The Economist) that you posted:

“If India addresses the alienation of the Kashmiri people, Pakistan will be perfectly happy to live with the territorial status quo,” says Rifaat Hussain, a Pakistani academic now at Stanford University.``

My response: If pakistani dictator can take his army to barracks, have free elections in Pak and usher in democracy, treat Ahmadias as human beings, stop honor killings, stop training and nurturing terrorists in Pak soil, India too shall be happy and at peace with Pak.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 314

tahmed321,

Did not even read the article (just like you did not read the one by Subhash Kak)when i learnt that Praful Bidwai was the author. The guy is a commie. He probably grew up licking Jyoti Basu`s A$$. you need to take his views with a pinch of salt (because he subscribes to an ideology that is all but dead). Leftist party have fielded another candidate whose one foot is in grave. They do it just for the sake of opposition. Bengal is passing through a crisis of intellectual paucity. And it shows.

Rest of the country does not agree with the likes of Praful Bidwai.

Nobody said Abdul Kalam will bring peace. He will be a good thing for India. Whether the subcontinent has peace or not depends on how successful Pak will be in combating terrorism both at home and across LOC.

Sridhar

Re: Tahmed321 on Kalam

I read the Op/Ed by Bidwai, and came away with a feeling that he is an alarmist (such people are needed, if for nothing else but to complete the public debate), but his piece is hardly illuminating on Kalam -- switch Kalam`s name with Eishenhower`s in `52, and a smiliar case could have been made regarding `dogged militarization` - in the end the pundits were wrong about Eisenhower. (Neither men made their political affiliations clear till elected, and Kalam will not even after being elected). I have no position on Kalam, other than the fact that he is apolitical, and that he declined a Cabinet position in the Vajpayee government in `99 -- and that alone points to aspect of his personality that Bidwai has chosen to gloss over. That Kalam will wield enormous power in an era of coalition governments (unlike past Presidents) is perhaps a good thing -- a necessary tonic to dismiss or atleast embarrass an overtly fascist regime that only a President has the power to do, and after Gujarat -- a heightened sensitivity that perhaps only a Muslim can have. Can you imagine how embarrasing a public Presidential request for information on the law and order situation of a state and its law enforcement machinery can be for any ruling junta?

As regards Bidwai`s assertion that `Kalam has many outlandish ideas, including combining the occult with hardcore science, powering airliners with nuclear fission...`, might I add that it was none other than Richard Feynman (Physics Nobel laureate) who proposed exactly the same, and even obtained a patent for a nuclear powered car/plane? And in science, outlandish ideas are desirable. The rest of Bidwai`s piece is focused on BJP/Advani, and not on Kalam.

I see Bidwai`s piece as a summary of his opinions (as he has the right to propound), but based little on fact (as I have the right to request).

Although most Indian Presidents have been largely apolitical, they had played occassional partisan roles based upon their prior political affiliations at crucial times in inviting certain groups to power - Kalam is unlikely to do that because he has been apolitical, and has no political baggage.

Further, Bidwai`s tarring Kalam with the Advani brush is irresponsible heresay -- Kalam has been around in the defence establishment for much longer than Advani has been in elected office.

Lastly, if you go to Kalam`s own description of his vision for India from his website, it can be summed up in 3 words - freedom, development, strength. What`s so wrong about that?

re: Shape of things to come in Pak: Karachi shows the way



``World News

June 15, 2002

One of the world`s most violent cities

By Zahid Hussain







KARACHI might be Pakistan’s biggest and most prosperous city but it is also among the world’s most lawless and violent.

Long known as the crime capital of the country, the city has now become a haven for Islamic terrorists who have fled Afghanistan.

Before the creation of Pakistan in 1947, Karachi was a sleepy port with 100,000 inhabitants. Half a century later, its population has swelled to 13 million.

A commercial and industrial hub, the city presents sharp contrasts in affluence. Shantytowns rub shoulders with fashionable upper-class neighbourhoods. More than 40 per cent of the city’s population lives in wretched conditions in the ever-expanding slum areas.

A weakening of state institutions and the collapse of law and order has led to the rise of the local mafias and gangs of armed mercenaries who enjoy the patronage of powerful political and religious groups. Thousands of people have been killed in ethnic and sectarian violence as rival political parties vie for control of the city.

The past few years have seen a significant increase in the influence of Islamic militant groups who easily find recruits among the growing numbers of unemployed young men living in the slums. The groups also receive funding from wealthy businessmen who support the Islamic militants’ cause.

Until recently, before the Government banned public displays of firearms, the radicals were commonly seen parading with sophisticated weapons. They would openly recruit volunteers to fight in Kashmir and Afghanistan. Three years ago in the same city, Maulana Masood Azhar — a firebrand cleric who founded Jaish-i-Muhammad, the most violent of the Islamic militant organisations — started a campaign to mobilise half a million warriors to fight against the Indian forces in Kashmir.

Although outlawed by President Musharraf earlier this year, the group, which is closely linked with al-Qaeda, has developed a strong infrastructure in the city and is said to be responsible for the recent attacks on foreigners.

The hundreds of madrassas (Islamic seminaries), which have sprung up recently, have been the centres of the groups’ activities.

Pakistani intelligence officials believe the city is infested with al-Qaeda fugitives who are trying to regroup with the support of Jaish-i-Muhammad and others.

“The city is a safe haven for the terrorists where they can easily melt away,” said one official. “They cannot be easily identified in a place where one finds people of every nationality.”

Url:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-327015,00.html

Sridhar



















ALSO IN THIS SECTION



Mixed messages in hunt for al-Qaeda



One of the world`s most violent cities





FBI and CIA call a truce on leaks, or so a leak says





Fast-track sainthood for priest dismissed as a fraud



Madagascar presidential rival `flies into exile`



Socialist boss`s safe seat in la Chiraquie is challenged





BREAKING NEWS

World from PA



Israel pulls out of West Bank







Three killed in Kashmir fighting







Russian troops killed in clashes







147 still detained over September 11







Amnesty wants ex-president on trial















TOOLS & SERVICES



Find a holiday

Search our database of flights, city breaks, holidays and late deals, today including 2 nights in Paris from only £105

.........................................

Money Shop

Search and compare loans, credit cards, mortgages and other financial products and buy online

.........................................

The Sunday Times Enterprise Network

Case studies, information, advice, events and exclusive offers for middle market businesses online

.........................................

Football auction

Signed shirts, programmes, autographs and more

.........................................

Crossword Maestro

Get the expert software system for solving crosswords

.........................................





ADVERTISEMENT



















Copyright 2002 Times Newspapers Ltd.

This service is provided on Times Newspapers` standard Terms and Conditions. Please read our Privacy Policy.

To inquire about a licence to reproduce material from The Times, visit the Syndication website.

Lalloo Shahji

More and more Brahmins of the South have reconciled to the inevitable numbers of ``others` surrounding them and have adjusted to that.

Can we say the same about the ``twice-born`` of Uttar Bharat.

People who have to live within 80% reservation societies adapt and adjust quicker than societies where the truth has not sunk in yet.

MISSION KASHMIR

CNN

Life and death imitate art in Kashmir

June 14, 2002 Posted: 4:01 PM EDT (2001 GMT)



CNN`s Martin Savidge



Editor`s note: In our Behind the Scenes series, CNN correspondents share their experiences in covering news around the world

SRINAGAR, India (CNN) -- The next time you stop in your local Indian video shop (there`s one down the street from my home in Atlanta), pick up a copy of the movie ``Mission Kashmir.``

The film is an action-packed thriller that was shot on location here in Srinigar several years ago. It`s a romantic tale of Kashmir`s ongoing battle against terror, albeit with a heavily pro-Indian skew.

Sure it`s all in Hindi, but the plot has enough action and is simple enough that even us non-speakers can get the gist. Like Kashmir – the land at the source of the tensions between nuclear powers India and Pakistan -- the film is marked by beauty and violence: It shows all the magnificent scenery of Kashmir, yet it is violent even by American standards.

The plot is fairly typical. Tough, heroic special-forces commander loses young son in tragic accident, and adopts a local boy after wiping out his family in a raid. Boy grows up happy until he realizes his new father killed his old family. Boy runs away and becomes a terrorist.

Now don`t go rolling your eyes mumbling, ``Not that old plot again.`` I left out the ending so not to spoil it for you.

Unlike your typical, gratuitous, explosion-packed, bad-guys-get-it-in-the-end saga, the Indian directors have worked in something that is the staple of all their movies: singing and dancing.

It`s not your typical militant musical, so it`s worth a peek.

I bring this up because what goes on at times in this lesser- known war on terrorism can seem almost as odd. There`s really nothing to smirk about.

India says since cross-border terrorism began here in 1989 more than 30,000 people have been killed. Other unofficial estimates say the figure is closer to 80,000.

Anyway, I`m wandering. A source who helps keep me in the know calls me up to say seven militants have been killed in a gun battle. I take down the info, including where and when, and then say, ``So, they were killed in a shootout with police?`` ``No`` he said.

Now, this is where it gets a bit Keystone Kop-like, minus the cops. There were actually two groups of militant/terrorists in the same town, the bad and the really bad. Turns out they had a few words over turf rights. By way of settling it, the terrorists decided to kill each other.

When the shooting cleared, six of the less bad guys were dead, along with one really bad guy. Three of his co-terrorists were wounded.

What do you think the police were thinking when they rolled up? Of course there`s nothing funny about this, but I did laugh when the source told me.

Somehow I thought it would make a great plot for a movie. If only I could find a good score writer and choreographer.

Tahmed, to continue...

He will cut and paste Text

long and dreary

lambastes Kanjars like

a modern day Bloody Mary.

Marches to the beat of a different dhol,

Vasai, drink him and you`ll agree,

Better to jump off the hills of Murree,

If his hand he`d only fold,

He serves pasta to the rasta

(stage whisper: who ratha pas` th` duchee)

fancy heself th` mulla masta

of the New Plantation retold

with the women in the house,

house negresses to the mouse!

the warm blooded host to the louse!

Oh, If he only had a soul!

Sattar

``Such absurdities are only the tip of the iceberg … there is more … Adam … living in paradise …the woman … the fruit … the fall from grace … prophets controlling “jinns” … talking to animals … Mohammad being flown to heaven at night to meet god … Moses having a “white hand” (I only recently learned this) … giving life to dead birds … turning wood into snakes … springs sprouting from the ground where he struck his staff … all this is coming from the Quran Sahib … Which planet do you live in?``

earth only betae..you saying there are no jinns? you dont believe there is a heaven, if you do, that you cannot be flown to it? how in hell will we get there then? most intrigued..please answer

Urstruly # 291

from what i saw on the net, mongolism is ``an out of date term for Down`s Syndrome``..are all these kids suffering from that? can u point me to someplace (the human rights orgs, ngo`s that have looked this myth up) where they have more details? its bad that kids who are unwell are being made to go through all this but i guess better than someone first doing this to them then making them beg

thanks

http://www.ivillage.co.uk/pregnancyandbaby/tools/pregnancy_gloss/0,10005,2-455-M-,00.html

http://www.rush.edu/worldbook/articles/031000a/031000156.html

To those who think the appointment of Kalam is a good thing, I recommend reading this editorial in the Hindustan Times:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/150602/detide01.asp

Summary of the article: Kalam is not the golden boy - the guy is a nut, and a dangerous one.

The article writes about how the missile tests of last week and the doctrine of first use of nuclear weapons in case of a conventional attack was not a bluff as many wishful thinkers in India seem to have been saying. The article provides a dose of realism that both Indians and Pakistanis seem to need.

And so the ``clattering train`` has not yet been halted in South Asia, and the nuclear genie may yet dance his evil dance over the cities of India and Pakistan. Meanwhile the pathetic economies are going to hell. And the terrorists are having a field day. And now we have a nut being appointed president in India. And generals in Pakistan doing something that is too important to be left to generals: deciding on matters of war and peace.

This has not been a good day. Time to go to bed and pray that things start getting better.

Aphra Behen #301 Excellent. To continue this song in praise of progressive, per your suggestion...

He will cut and paste

Text long and dreary

He does this to lambaste

Kanjars

Like a modern day Bloody Mary.

sattar2 #248 Sattar, my friend, I have a few problems with your post. As follows:

starting with your last sentence first, you write ``Sahib … I accept I am not destined for greatness … but what can I do if great things are thrust upon me?``

Why is greatness so important to you?? Please ask yourself why doing what you consider to be a good deed is not an end in itself, rather than a means to an end (i.e. greatness, applause). On your dying day (which will be many, many happy decades from now, I pray), that recognition will no longer mean anything to you. All that would matter to you will be how you lived your life, and any good that you left behind.

This brings me to my second problem with your post, where you write ``I am involved with promoting Islam in the bay area … by organizing information booths and interfaith conferences in our mosque and other places.``

Why is promoting Islam so important to you? If you truly believe in the Quranic message that it is deeds and intentions that are important in the eyes of God on judgement day, not the particular religion (or lack thereof) that you follow, then promoting islam should be the the least of your concerns. And the most of your concerns would be to be good deeds. All you are telling me is the usual bickering that goes on in mosques with, as you say, `` “other” Muslims … some of whom cannot get enough of hurling abuses at me … upon discovering that I am an Ahmadi.`` and ``theological debates`` and ``the giant-donkey`` (this is a good one) and that you are called ``kaffir`` and ``discussions regarding how many angels will be required to safely land Issa to the ground.`` Why do you waste time in such activities and with these half-brained good-for-nothings?? Why not spend that time with, e.g., your wife and children.

I hope you will reflect upon these problems, and not feel insulted or ridiculed by my post.

Tahmed

Poverty and Ignorance existed in 1947 as well, should we have not been free?

Indians were poor and ignorant in 1947 - more so than they are now - did they deserve to be free?

Is it OK to oppress, torture, rape and kill poor and ignorant people?

Clearly a rethink is in order. All agree that we have poverty and ignorance - but the continued captivity of Kashmir is the most serious problem between Pakistan and India - how so? because it is a denial of moral legitimacy of both Pakistan and India. To attempt to sweep this under the rug is the equivalent of piling on more dirt and dust, just that it is out of our view (this competes with poverty and ignorance? it is ignorance) - Better to acknowledge a mutual problem and seek a redress that has acceptance among Pakistanis, indians and the captive kashmiri - this way we actually deal with our problems, I`m not suggesting it will be solved over night - but at least we will, all three parties be commited, involved in a process, seeking to resolve it peacefully - if not - then, in one year 10 years, 20 years, we`ll be back to the same violence.

Urstruly (#292):

First things first. Length of a post … or time spent on it … cannot compensate for absurdity of its content. Moving on …

In your post you rambled on and on … but failed to clarify … what should one make of this old-prophet-and-giant-donkey concept … that your ullema are preaching all over the kingdom.

Another fine point, that you missed, perhaps deliberately, is that … ullema are “proving” these absurd notions … from the Quran. It is no longer a matter of weak or strong ahadith … but the very Quran has been dragged into this bloody mess by your mullahs. There are exact verses these idiots cite to prove Issa-ibne-Marrian was lifted to heaven … alive … physically. After all the research … how could you not know this? From what I recall … even your Maudoodi supported this absurd idea.

Go to any “Muslim” web-site … or read any translation of Quran … or talk to any mullah in a mosque after ishaa prayers … and they will tell you the same … that Issa-ibne-Marriam was taken up alive … and will descend down to earth … and fight the Dajjal … the one-eyed monster.



Such absurdities are only the tip of the iceberg … there is more … Adam … living in paradise …the woman … the fruit … the fall from grace … prophets controlling “jinns” … talking to animals … Mohammad being flown to heaven at night to meet god … Moses having a “white hand” (I only recently learned this) … giving life to dead birds … turning wood into snakes … springs sprouting from the ground where he struck his staff … all this is coming from the Quran Sahib … Which planet do you live in?

Absurdity of mainstream Islam is further proven by … the web-site you provided a link to … where some idiot named Chirri rambles on about the supernatural miracles of prophets … who parted the ocean … raised the dead … healed the blind … while trying to make some absurd point. He only made a jackass of himself … and dragged you down with him.

Unable to salvage the reputation of your mullahs … you go on to criticize Ahmadis. You earlier suggested that they are a sect planted by the British … but could not back this up … tacitly acknowledging that your hatred has dwindled your intelligence (or whatever was once left of it). You acknowledge that mullahs are involved in hateful propaganda against Ahamids. If they stand on firm grounds … intellectually and theologically … they would not have resorted to propaganda and violence. But the jahil mullahs and you … have sunk this low. Let`s not change the subject here ... after all ... it is your ullema who are telling fairy tales about dead prophets ... and giant donkeys ... not the Ahmadis.

War and terrorism

Jun 14th 2002

From The Economist Global Agenda

Although tension between India and Pakistan over Kashmir is ebbing after a visit by Donald Rumsfeld, the American defence secretary, a massive bomb blast in Karachi has shown that a dangerous terrorist threat remains

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1187468

A HUGE car bomb, thought to be driven by a suicide bomber, exploded near the American consulate in the southern Pakistani city of Karachi on Friday June 14th, killing at least eight people. The blast came just as Donald Rumsfeld, the American defence secretary, wound up his visit to the region. Although Mr Rumsfeld appears to have had some success in curbing the extremism that threatens to lead India and Pakistan into another war over the disputed territory of Kashmir, he can now be less sure about the containment of terrorist groups such as al-Qaeda.

Al-Qaeda is thought to be behind the latest blast. Last month, the group was blamed for exploding a bomb near the Sheraton hotel in Karachi. That killed 11 French nationals who were working in the city, along with three Pakistanis. Karachi, the country`s biggest port, has long been a hotbed of Islamic extremism shaken by murders and bomb attacks, not only against foreigners but also between rival factions. Although Mr Rumsfeld had praised Pakistan`s efforts to try to hunt down militants who had fled from Afghanistan, the bombing in Karachi shows just how difficult that is in such a chaotic country.

Pakistan was already edgy about reports of al-Qaeda operating within the country. After visiting senior Indian officials, including the prime minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee, Mr Rumsfeld had said there were signs that al-Qaeda was also operating in Kashmir. Pakistan was furious and accused him of falling for Indian propaganda. Most Pakistanis see the militants in Kashmir not as terrorists, but as “freedom fighters.” Once Mr Rumsfeld had arrived in Pakistan and had visited the Pakistani president, General Pervez Musharraf, he changed his tune and described the reports as “speculative”. He added that he was sure that Pakistan would be able to deal with the al-Qaeda militants if any were found in the part of Kashmir it controls.

That remains to be seen. Wherever the militants lurk, Pakistan is clearly finding it hard to track them down. Some of the country`s military resources have been diverted to deal with the treat of a war with India. Both nuclear-armed rivals have more than a million troops massed along the “line of control”, the disputed border which divides Kashmir. They have been engaged in an almost daily exchange of gunfire.

A deal over Kashmir?

Mr Rumsfeld may have laid the foundations for some of those troops to be pulled back. There are signs of de-escalation, but the situation remains dangerous. Even Mr Rumsfeld admits that diplomatic efforts, however intense, can only go so far to prevent India and Pakistan from escalating the conflict.

Mr Rumsfeld has welcomed India’s decision to end a five-month ban on Pakistani civil aircraft entering its airspace, withdraw its navy from waters near Pakistan and to name, but not yet send, an ambassador to the Pakistani capital, Islamabad. But Pakistan wants India to do more.

The peace process, if it is to continue, must now pass through two phases. The first deals mainly with procedure, the second with principle. Each has its pitfalls. If they are overcome, India and Pakistan might finally end the feud that began when they became independent in 1947.

Phase one is a trade: Pakistan is to end support for terrorists fighting Indian rule in Kashmir, a Muslim-majority state. India is to back off from its threat of war and, eventually, to resume talks with Pakistan on Kashmir. Both sides accept this blueprint, but it could easily be botched in execution. Avoiding that was the main object of Mr Rumsfeld’s trip this week.

Each side suspects the other of dragging its feet. General Musharraf has called India’s gestures “a very small beginning”. India demands that Pakistan get on with dismantling the “infrastructure of terror,” including the camps in Pakistani Kashmir where terrorists await orders to cross over. Politics encourages dawdling. For General Musharraf, shutting down the anti-Indian militancy means discarding his main method of keeping alive Pakistan’s claim to Kashmir. He is unwilling to do it without significant Indian concessions, and his country is full of vengeful zealots who will refuse to do it at all.

In India, it is mainly up to the armed forces to verify that Pakistan is blocking infiltration by terrorists across the line. For their part, the armed forces are itching for a fight with Pakistan. If the next terrorist strike in Kashmir is spectacular enough, they could get their way.

But the moderates are making the decisions, at least for now. They have acknowledged that infiltration from Pakistan is down and have started a “calibrated” response. The process would probably survive even another attack. Ending terrorism “is very difficult to achieve on the ground because the disease has spread over 20 years,” says Jaswant Singh, India`s foreign minister.

America wants further de-escalation, starting perhaps with a pullback of the airforce from the border and home leave for soldiers there. But India made it clear that it would do no more until Pakistan reduces infiltration further and starts dismantling militant camps. Much of its force will remain in place at least until elections in Kashmir this autumn.

AP





Rumsfeld at work



Pakistan’s ultimate prize is a dialogue on Kashmir, which is where arguments on principle will come in. Since its founding as the homeland for South Asia’s Muslims, Pakistan has seen Kashmir as stolen property. India’s abuses of democratic norms and human rights in the state add to the indignation. Multi-religious India sees no reason to give up a state that acceded to it legally. It regards the discontent of ordinary Kashmiris as an internal matter. Talking to Pakistan will change none of that.

India wants to cure Kashmiri separatism with elections, which it hopes will produce a popular government willing to negotiate a political deal short of independence (which most Kashmiris want) or accession to Pakistan. Diplomacy is now Pakistan’s main tool for stopping India consolidating its hold over Kashmir. Pakistan counts it a victory that the nuclear panic has drawn third parties into the dispute.

In the past this would have rattled India, which regards Kashmir as a bilateral issue. But India and the United States have become firm allies in the fight against terrorism. But America and other outsiders are unlikely to help Pakistan much on Kashmir. They have neither the power nor the inclination to force India to surrender large additional chunks of the state. At best, they can pressure India to sit at the table and to treat its own Kashmiri citizens decently enough so that General Musharraf can claim to have protected their rights. Perhaps Pakistan is ready for this. “If India addresses the alienation of the Kashmiri people, Pakistan will be perfectly happy to live with the territorial status quo,” says Rifaat Hussain, a Pakistani academic now at Stanford University. That might be a formula for a lasting peace.