Dissing Ideologies

Re: Hobbyty

``...Thks for the site info - who paid for this sample - do you know?...``

Lord Averbury of the British Parliament

Re Urstruly (#376) … instead of getting mad at me, you should review your own understanding of Islam … and see if it makes sense.

Distortions in Islamic teachings by the mullahs cannot be denied. Their “Quranic” belief of Issa-in-the-sky attests to this fact. This is only the tip of the iceberg.

You can deny this all you want … and quote ahadith … call it a matter of belief … and claim rejection of these notions by the ullema. Fact is that the Issa-in-the-sky is being preached by the ullema all over the world. Check any Muslim website, talk to your Iman, or check a translation of Quran to verify this.

You own jihalat attests to the point I am trying to make. In post # 292, while trying to show that Issa-in-the-sky is not an authentic part of Islam … you supported the notion that … Issa used to raise the dead!

This indicates that you just as delusional as your mullahs. It is like … I called you a jahil for reason “A”. While trying to prove me wrong … you readily accepted being a jahil for reason “B” … while in principle, reasons “A” and “B” are similar to each other. Believing that Issa raised the dead … is just as absurd as believing that he lives today in the sky.

If you do not have anything to add to this … let it go man. You are wasting your time trying to prove your Islam is a rational religion.

Moving on …

You now explain violence and propaganda against Ahmadis … as mullahs, being human, erring. Declaring Ahmadi worthy of being killed and inciting masses to violence causing death and destruction of hundreds of Ahmadis and their houses and mosques … cannot be accepted as “mullahs erring”. I totally reject your explanation here.

The duration and scale of this violence shows it is not a few bad mullahs … it shows organization … and systemic corruption of Islamic principles at the hands of mullahs … on a large scale. Remember … the first wave of riots against Ahmadis started in 1953. Then again in 1973. It continues to this day. Combine this with shia-sunni violence, suicide bombings, wtc attacks, sectarian violence, Taliban dilemma, madrisah culture which serves as breeding grounds for violence and fundamentalism …and it becomes clear how corrupt your Islam has become.

If you disagree … then let’s also call Abu Jehal a person temporarily erring… just like the rest of the kuffar who persecuted the Muslims. Using the same criterion, let’s also call the incident of Gujrat as some “bad people erring”. Other than these minor incidents … all is fine and dandy.

Moving on further …

You have not responded to my explanation of the “khattam” verse in Quran … while insisting that mullahs believe “khattam” to mean “last”. This is a fool’s conjecture and does not constitute intelligent reasoning. I provided another Quranic verse that clearly supports coming of more messengers … but you have been silent here as well. The ahadith I provided to counter yours … also remain unanswered.

I would like to hear your response to Quranic verses … before moving on to other scholars. If you can ignore the Word of Allah … what’s the point in quoting humans to you?

Ref: Tahmed #372

Dear Tahmed,

First of all I was only quoting the MORI poll. I myself do not claim any spiritual or empathetic powers to be able to reach a judgement about whether the people of J&K are happy or not in India. However, I do find this poll a more convincing reflection of the popular mood than the assertion that because a gang of gun-toting (largely non indigenous (ref. BBC))militants exist and can throw their weight around, they reflect the wishes of the majority.

Secondly, just because some part of India is happy with being Indian is no reason to hold a plebscite. If this were so, we would be holding plebscites in UP tomorrow and Tamil Nadu day after. Now you may dispute Kashmir being ``some part of India``, but most Indian don`t. In light of the ratification of accession by an elected Kashmiri parliament, and the participation of the state in national affair and elections for 40 years (till 1990), The issue is considered settled and we do not see any need to hold a plebscite now. Maybe these reasons are not enough to convince you, but that is not India`s prime concern.

On the issue of oppression in kashmir, which is correctly everyone`s concern, may I note that the people of J&K have the same rights as any other Indian citizen. In particular they are free to elect representatives who can express their opinions for them. They will get this chance in October this year. If you are worried about the fairness of the elections, please do drop in. It seems foreigners will be given free access to see the election process. These representatives can then negotiate with the Indian government for an amicable solution. In my opinion giving this opportunity is not characteristic of an ``oppressor`` nation, nor do ``oppressed`` people usually get a chance to have their say.

I guess what I am trying to say is that India feels that J&K is part of it, and will never willingly give it up. Pakistan cannot make us do it. The Kashmiris can, but India is betting that once it atones for its past sins and gives the people the rights and privileges that they are guaranteed under the (Indian) constitution, they will not want to. The world seems happy enough with the status quo, especially if India can make the Kashmiris go along with it (but in all probability stopping the instability will be enough for it). If India still talks about a Kashmir dispute, it is only to keep Pakistan engaged. For it, Kashmir is a dispute only in the sense that the de facto settlement has not been given legal cover. Call this hypocrisy or whatever, it is a fact.

I hope I have complied with your wish not to be wishy-washy in my answer.

regards,

narain

satyavadi #382 Yes I will get back, and thanks for the reminder.

I have mismanaged my interactions on this board, and have ended up getting swamped with more interactions than I can handle. My wife is beginning to suspect that ``chowk`` is a cover for some sexy female I have found on the internet. She does not realize that I am busier than Kofi Annan trying to bring peace in this world.

hobbyty #382 I smell something in your post. Is it burnt toast? No. Is it rotten fish? No. Yes, I know what it is. It is the smell of mendacity.

BTW I picked up this line form an ancient movie I just finished watching on TV ``Cat on a Hot Tin Roof`` (the questions and answers are my own improvement on the original lines). I think I can use these lines every time you write something about Kashmir. But I am a fair man (I picked this line from another move): I can use this line every time anyone else on chowk - hindu or muslim or sikh or eesayee - writes something about Kashmir too.

You may carry on explaining your moral position.

Aphra Behen #320 To continue the Saga of the Progressive:

you had written

``fancy heself th` mulla masta

of the New Plantation retold

with the women in the house,

house negresses to the mouse!

the warm blooded host to the louse!

Oh, If he only had a soul!``

I shall provide the chorus now:

(All together)

Lordy! Lordy!

Massa Progressa

Aint got no soul

Saudi! Saudi!

His brain done gone

Out on parole

(Repeat)

The House Negresses stroke

The wretched bloke

L`il chillun from the cotton fields

Do cutandpastes as good deeds.

Then with hands a-shakin`

And legs a-quakin`

The chillun all gawk

As Massa Progressa sends

One more mile-long text to chowk.

(All together)

Lordy! Lordy!

Massa Progressa

Aint got no soul

Saudi! Saudi!

His brain done gone

Out on parole

(Repeat)

re : some saminahshah post on islamist or islamacist or islam

for those of us who believe in islam ......this is an offensive term and it doesnt clarify anything but obfucates debate you have joined the comp of daniel pipes and alan keyes in my book rabid islamophobes who see a ``fundamentalist`` lurking behind any person who seeks political self expression through islam.....the division should be between violence and nonviolence in describing islamic radicals terms like islamacist or islamist is an indirect attack on islam and i find it racist , offensive , and fascist and it exposes the true nature of the LEFT:condescending of any and all religion and ultimately neo pagan ............

IS VAJPAYEE LIKE PAST DUE DATE MEDICINE USELESS?

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020617-260747,00.html

Asleep at The Wheel?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

As India and neighbor Pakistan put up their nukes, is an ailing and frail Vajpayee the right man to have his finger on the button?

BY ALEX PERRY NEW DELHI

ALEXANDER NEMENOV/AFP

A frail Vajpayee, shown on a trip to Almaty this month, must appease moderates and militants alike





Home Minister Krishna Lal Advani: Interview



Back on the Brink: India and Pakistan



He drank heavily in his prime and still enjoys a nightly whiskey or two at 74. India`s leader takes painkillers for his knees (which were replaced due to arthritis) and has trouble with his bladder, liver and his one remaining kidney. A taste for fried food and fatty sweets plays havoc with his cholesterol. He takes a three-hour snooze every afternoon on doctor`s orders and is given to interminable silences, indecipherable ramblings and, not infrequently, falling asleep in meetings.

Atal Behari Vajpayee, then, would be an unusual candidate to control a nuclear arsenal. But for four years the Indian Prime Minister`s grandfatherly hands have held the subcontinent back from tumbling into war. Despite the fact that he heads the pro-Hindu Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), a constituency stuffed with extremists, Vajpayee has ambitiously pursued peace with neighbor and rival Pakistan, even traveling to the Pakistani cultural capital of Lahore in 1999, vainly hoping to bury the bloody animus of the past and start an era of good feelings.

With 1 million soldiers facing each other at high alert on the India-Pakistan border, those days seem long ago. At the same dangerous time, Vajpayee`s stewardship is looking less and less comforting. The frail bachelor seems shaky and lost, less an aging sage than an ordinary old man. He forgets names, even of longtime colleague and current Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh, and during several recent meetings he appeared confused and inattentive. After a meeting with a Western Foreign Minister, his appearance was described by one attending diplomat as ``half dead.`` At a rare press conference last month in Srinagar, the Prime Minister tottered to the podium?Indian TV crews are asked to film him from the waist up to avoid showing his shuffling gait?to find he had trouble understanding questions, repeatedly relying on whispered prompts from Home Minister Lal Krishna Advani. Even then Vajpayee stumbled over his replies. ``He is very alert when he is functional,`` says one BJP worker. ``But there are very few hours like that.`` Adds one Western diplomat: ``We have a lot of conversations about his health. Some of his mannerisms come down to his personal style. But some of it is definitely spacey stuff.``

While no one questions that key decisions on national security and foreign policy are still made by Vajpayee, the focus is now turning to the two men behind the throne: Vajpayee`s low-key National Security Adviser Brajesh Mishra, and Vajpayee`s hard-line BJP colleague of 50 years, 72-year-old Advani. The consensus among observers and diplomats is that the hawkish Advani is preparing to succeed Vajpayee at the next national elections due by late 2004. ``There is no doubt he is the Prime Minister in waiting,`` remarks a diplomat.

In the meantime, Vajpayee has undergone a sudden conversion from peacemaker to warmonger?primarily in response to political pressures. This year`s standoff on the border shows the dovish Prime Minister has accepted the argument that war?or the threat of it?works. In comments that set off alarm bells around the world, Vajpayee last month spoke twice of an impending ``decisive battle`` against India`s ``enemy.`` Although he has repeatedly said that he does not want war, the Prime Minister has sound strategic reasons for ratcheting up the rhetoric. Since Sept. 11, he has found the international community more sympathetic to the idea of India waging its own war on terror against jihadis in the contended state of Jammu and Kashmir, where many of them have been inserted by Pakistan. And it plays well for India to keep the pot boiling: New Delhi can claim a victim`s solidarity with the U.S., avoid addressing the awkward issue of its heavy-handed rule in Muslim-dominated Kashmir?and just possibly get Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf to actually shut down the jihadi industry on his territory, ending what India calls a ``proxy war.``

Last week, Musharraf told visiting U.S Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage that he was going to put a permanent end to terrorist incursions into India. Vajpayee`s government promised in turn some de-escalation measures, though a withdrawal of troops from the border has been ruled out. The big risk, however, is that no matter what Musharraf does, there are enough jihadis already in Kashmir to keep hammering India with suicide bombs and death squads. Four people were killed by terrorists Friday night in Kashmir, even as heavy shelling continued at the frontier and an unmanned Indian spy plane was shot down by the Pakistani air force. Any small spark can still push Vajpayee to deploy his soldiers in some punitive counterattack on Pakistan, which can lead to full-scale war.

Meanwhile, Vajpayee`s colleagues carp that he`s still not being hawkish enough. ``Any Prime Minister that takes action against Pakistan will sweep the elections, but Vajpayee is reluctant and that will definitely damage the BJP,`` complains BJP hard-liner B.P. Singhal. ``As the Prime Minister, for him, national interest is above party interest.``

Tellingly, Vajpayee was forced to give up his moderate stance and attend to his party in response to a domestic disaster, not an international crisis. On Feb. 27, a group of Muslims firebombed a train in the western state of Gujarat murdering 58 Hindus. The reprisals against Muslims in Gujarat were fierce, unpoliced, and went on for weeks, killing some 2,000 according to human rights groups. (The official death toll, widely disbelieved, is half this.) On April 4, Vajpayee reacted with revulsion, urging Hindu rioters to rediscover ``a sense of unity and brotherhood.`` Asked the published poet: ``Burning alive men, women and children? Are we human or not? Or has a demon taken over us?`` His office briefed newspapers on the likely candidates to replace Gujarat state leader Narendra Modi, a member of the BJP who was accused of complicity in the violence, or at least, ineptness in containing it. But scarcely a week later, on April 12, Vajpayee changed his tune. Nothing more was said about sacking Modi. And speaking to an audience in Goa, Vajpayee shocked the country by declaring: ``These days militancy in the name of Islam leaves no room for tolerance. Wherever such Muslims live, they tend not to live in coexistence ... they want to spread their faith by resorting to terror and threats.``

In the subcontinental context, that kind of statement is a license for the killings to continue. According to diplomatic sources, the burden of the crisis made Vajpayee unwell. Adds Vinod Mehta, editor-in-chief of the Indian weekly Outlook magazine, Advani and his supporters used the illness to gather the party`s hard-line core and read him the riot act. ``The party basically gave him no room to maneuver,`` says Mehta. ``He knew he could have lost his job and he had neither the spirit nor the physical strength to fight back. So he just gave up his moderate stance and fell in line. Now he`s just a party mascot, a puppet of the hard-liners.``

With an enfeebled Vajpayee at the helm, the prospect of war with Pakistan becomes more real. ``Advani would really like to finish this proxy war, and perhaps do a bit more,`` says one diplomat. India has none of the checks and balances designed during the cold war to prevent a nuclear launch in anger. (Although India`s military is comfortingly professional, nonpolitical and obedient to civilian control. The country`s nukes are controlled by government scientists, and deployment orders come from the Prime Minister`s office alone.) For his part, Advani denies any undue influence, or even the tag of ``hawk``?although, characteristically, he describes communal violence under the BJP as ``minimal,`` even after the shame of Gujarat. But asked about the possibility of attacking across the Line of Control in Kashmir, Advani answers that in his view India is already facing an ``undeclared war`` from the militants. His list of conditions that Musharraf must meet before peace talks can begin is lengthy. ``As long as this undeclared war, this training, arming, financing of jihadis, and this infiltration and terrorism and sabotage continues,`` he says, ``then any dialogue will be meaningless.`` And he hints that the international community has given tacit approval for action. ``One major change in the last 10 days has been that the U.S., Britain and other coalition members have said publicly and forcefully that Pakistan should stop cross-border terrorism,`` he says. ``Our Prime Minister took really radical initiatives in the past. There`s no question of that now``?in other words, of actively looking for peace. An Indian army source adds that unless India detects that promised shift in militant activity and capability in the next five weeks, the military expects an order to attack.

The body on the other end of the seesaw is Mishra, a 70-year-old career civil servant and diplomat, who functions as the equivalent of a White House chief of staff. The fact that Mishra has survived countless calls for his removal?he`s accused of wielding influence beyond his position?is testament to his pivotal role, diplomats say. Mishra is considered to be the brains behind the peace overtures of the past. His influence with Vajpayee these days waxes when the two men get away from the capital and the rest of the BJP. At a regional security conference in the Kazakh capital of Almaty last week, the Prime Minister made a rare and unexpected conciliatory gesture when he proposed joint Indian-Pakistani patrols along the Line of Control to ensure an end to infiltration. All week Mishra was briefing India`s national newspapers that the government had decided to tone down the rhetoric. And significantly, when Vajpayee returned to Delhi on Wednesday night, Mishra stayed behind for further talks. But, warns Outlook editor Mehta, Mishra is just an appointed government servant, however close he is to the boss. ``Mishra`s influence is directly proportional to Vajpayee`s position. He has no party base. When Vajpayee goes down, Mishra goes with him.``

Observers say that the BJP is hoping to use Vajpayee through the next general elections, but no further. The party currently rules in a coalition, with Vajpayee as the glue that holds it together. If it manages to win an absolute majority, it won`t need him any longer. The Prime Minister has largely accepted this gradual decline. His great ambition on gaining office was to do for India-Pakistan relations what Nixon did for China and the U.S.: only a right-winger, went the argument, could take the country into a peace deal with the archenemy. And this Vajpayee wanted to do, to secure a place in the history books. Friends say this ambition is now dead. Much of the Prime Minister`s energy is now devoted to the business of weight rather than weighty affairs of state. His staff coaxes the reluctant old man onto a treadmill for 10 minutes every day and encourages him to take short walks. His ``family``?longtime companion Rajkumari Kaul, who suffered a heart attack in March, and her daughter Namita?ensures he is served only boiled vegetables and rice. But Vajpayee still insists on an evening drink or two. In the family cottage in the Himalayan foothills, says an aide, nothing can keep him away from deep-fried trout. ``He promises to stick to his diet with doubled rigidity once he leaves,`` says an aide, ``but the trout he must have.`` On a long flight abroad, Vajpayee compared his menu with other members of the government party. ``He was terribly upset when he discovered he had been singled out for special treatment,`` says the aide, ``and tried to browbeat the in-flight staff into serving him the general meal, which was spicier.`` Meanwhile, tension seems set to continue between India and Pakistan. But as Vajpayee`s ability to steer a moderate course diminishes, he`s spending the twilight of his political life where he wants to be?out to lunch.

Chowkies

WE have hearing about the poll done by the ``British`` company MORI in Captive Kashmir - What you have not been told is that the poll was done by the Indian representative of MORI - But there is a wealth of Data here and I invite your comments, in particular with regard to conclusions and method, I for one, see in this poll, several omissions and the portends of what the upcoming Indian occupation forces`s ``elections`` will throw up: the creation of a new party to replace Hurriyet. The differences among the opinions of the valley folk and Jammu are significant and suggestive of a deep divide that does not support the conclusion that a division based on religion is as alien as the official conclusions suggest. The age group in the sample is rather wide and I wonder if it would not have been a more objective sample and the respondents been grouped by age as well. I have put certain words in quotation marks, as empahsis and to invite your comments on what they may mean:

``Kashmiris Reject War In Favour Of Democratic Means

MORI publishes results of major new survey

31 May 2002

The vast majority of Kashmiris oppose India and Pakistan going to war to find a permanent solution to the situation in Kashmir and believe the correct way to bring peace to the region is through ``democratic elections``, ending violence, and economic development.

They also believe the unique ``cultural identity`` of the region should be preserved in any long-term solution, and there is virtually no support for the state of Jammu and Kashmir being divided on the basis of religion or ethnic group.

These are the main findings to emerge from a poll conducted by the independent market research company, MORI International, at the end of April (20-28 April 2002), just before the start of the recent escalation of conflict in the region.

Interviews were conducted in the Jammu and the surrounding rural areas, Srinagar and its surrounding rural areas and in Leh. Interviewers were set quotas for ``sex`` and religion (assessed by the interviewer)`` to match the population of each region.

Although the vast majority in Jammu and Leh believe the correct way to bring about peace is though ``democratic elections``, opinions are more evenly divided in and around Srinagar, with a bare majority (52%) agreeing with this view.

Nevertheless, the vast majority - 76% - of those in the Srinagar region believe India and Pakistan should not go to war to bring about a permanent solution.

There is a general consensus across the regions that it is not possible to hold democratic elections while violence continues – 65% agree while 34% disagree.

A very clear majority of the population – 65% - believes the presence of foreign militants in Jammu and Kashmir is damaging to the Kashmir cause, and most of the rest take the view that it is neither damaging nor helpful.

Overall, two thirds of people in Jammu and Kashmir take the view that Pakistan’s involvement in the region for the last ten years has been bad. Only 15% believe it has been good for the region, while 18% say it has made no real difference.

On the issue of citizenship, overall, 61% said they felt they would be better off politically and economically as an Indian citizen and only 6% as a Pakistani citizen, but 33% said they did not know.

A suggestion that most people do not feel that the current political parties have the solution to the problems in Kashmir is reflected in the fact that around half, or more, of the population in each region agree with the view that ‘a new political party is needed to bring about a permanent solution in Kashmir’.

People in all regions are in general agreement that ‘the unique cultural identity of Jammu and Kashmir – Kashmiryat – should be preserved in any long-term solution’. Overall, 81% agree, including 76% in Srinagar and 81% in Jammu.

There is also widespread consensus on the types of proposals which will help to bring about peace in Jammu and Kashmir. More than 85% of the population, including at least 70% in each region, think the following will help to bring about peace:

Economic development of the region to provide more job opportunities and reduction of poverty – 93%

The holding of free and fair elections to elect the people’s representatives – 86%

Direct consultation between the Indian government and the people of Kashmir – 87%

An end to militant violence in the region – 86%

Stopping the infiltration of militants across the Line of Control – 88%

The critical role people see for economic development in helping to solve the problems is further underlined by the 74% who think that ‘people from outside of Kashmir being encourage to invest in the area to help rebuild Kashmir’s economy and tourist industry’ will help to bring peace to the state.

There is also a widespread view, held by 80%, that allowing displaced Kashmiri Pandits to return to their homes in safety will help to bring about peace.

Views are mixed on the likely impact of ‘People in Jammu and Kashmir having the freedom to travel in both directions across the Line of Control’. Those in and around Srinagar and Leh generally feel this would help to bring peace while those in Jammu take the opposite view.

An overwhelming 92% oppose the state of Kashmir being divided on the basis of religion or ethnicity. There is also overwhelming support – 91% – for a forum in which Kashmiris from both sides of the Line of Control can discuss common interests.

A clear majority - 70% - also support the borders between Pakistani-controlled Kashmir and Indian Kashmir being opened for much more trade and cultural exchange. However, while the views in Srinagar and Leh were very decisive – over 90% support – those in Jammu were much more balanced – 47% support, 53% oppose.

Views are also split on the issue of granting more autonomy to Kashmir. Overall 55% support ‘India and Pakistan granting as much autonomy as they can to both sides of Kashmir to govern their own affairs. However, while the majority in Srinagar and Leh support this, the majority in Jammu oppose this policy.

There are also mixed views about the role and impact of the Indian security forces. In Srinagar and Leh, at least nine out of ten believe that security forces scaling down their operations in Jammu and Kashmir would help to bring peace, whereas in Jammu opinions are reversed.

There are clearly different perceptions of the behaviour of the Indian security forces. Nobody interviewed in Leh or Jammu believes that human rights violations by Indian security forces in Jammu and Kashmir are widespread, whereas in Srinagar 64% of the population think they are widespread.

Perceptions are different with respect to human rights violations by militant groups in Jammu and Kashmir. 96% of those in Jammu believe such violations are widespread whereas only 2% of those in Srinagar believe they are widespread (although 33% believe they are ‘occasional’).

Technical note

Methodology

Fieldwork was carried out by FACTS Worldwide, MORI`s affiliate company in India, between 20 - 28 April 2002.

In total, 850 interviews were completed, face-to-face, with adults aged 16+ across 55 localities within Jammu and Kashmir. This comprised 22 localities in Jammu City, 20 in Srinagar City and 6 in Leh (urban areas), as well as in 3 villages around Jammu and 4 villages around Srinagar (rural areas).

Quotas were set by gender, religion (assessed by observation) and locality, according to the known population profile of the region.

A random selection procedure was used to select individual respondents.

Sample Profile

The following table details the profile of respondents by locality and religion:

Locality Total i`views Breakdown by religion (observed)

Muslim Hindu Sikh Buddhist Christian

Srinagar 300 292 8 - - -

97% 3% - - -



Villages nr Srinagar 60 58 2 - - -

97% 3% - - -



Jammu 344 103 229 7 1 4

30% 67% 2% *% 1%



Villages nr Jammu 71 21 50 - - -

30% 70% - - -



Leh 75 35 4 - 36 -

47% 5% - 48% -





Total 850 509 293 7 37 4

60% 34% 1% 4% *%

Quotas were based on 1981 Census data (population in 1,000s):

Total pop. Muslim Hindu Sikh Buddhist Christian

Kashmir Valley

(Srinigar & surrounding areas) 3,102 2,977 125 - 0.2 -

96% 4% - *% -



Jammu region 2,717 805 1,803 100 1 8

30% 66% 4% *% *%



Ladakh

(incl. Leh) 134 62 4 - 68 -

46% 3% - 51% -





Total 65% 32% 2% 1% *%

Statistical Reliability

The sampling tolerances that apply to the percentage results in this report are given below. This table shows the possible variation that might be anticipated because a sample, rather than the entire population, was interviewed. As indicated, sampling tolerances vary with the size of the sample and the size of percentage results. The confidence intervals take no account of design effects and, of course, there were certain areas in each region we did not conduct interviews.

Approximate sampling tolerances applicable to percentages at or near these levels (at the 95% confidence level)

Base: 10% or 90% 30% or 70% 50%

850 (total) 2 3 3

415 (Jammu region) 3 4 5

360 (Srinagar region) 3 5 5

75 (Leh) 7 10 11

Source: MORI

For example, for a question where 50% of the people in a sample of 850 respond with a particular answer, the chances are 95 in 100 that this result would not vary more than 3 percentage points, plus or minus, from the result that would have been obtained from a census of the entire population using the same procedures. Tolerances are also involved in the comparison of results between different elements of the sample. A difference, in other words, must be of at least a certain size to be statistically significant. The following table is a guide to the sampling tolerances applicable to comparisons.

Differences required for significance at the 95% confidence level at or near these percentages

Base: 10% or 90% 30% or 70% 50%

432 (Men) and 418 (Women) 4 6 7

415 (Jammu region) and 360 (Srinagar region) 4 7 7

415 (Jammu region) and 75 (Leh) 7 11 12

360 (Srinagar region) and 75 (Leh) 8 12 13

Source: MORI

Shammi

Thks for the site info - who paid for this sample - do you know?

Dost Mittar

You heap accusation on me and then do not have the gumption to back it, instead you want me to respond to a charge you cannot be bothered to substantiate? If the content is ``dumbed down``, it is because you refuse to take responsibility for your understanding (foggy land - I don`t understand) you do not even realize the importance I give you, to that searching heart, to explain this - You do not even realize that you are not owed an explanation - Please be conscious! Listen, I will once again to explain (in an attempt to be more lucid) what this debate about ``method`` is all about. With Islam, the controversies that you witness, and misidentify, are debates about ``method`` (training/point of view - which is more valid?)

Obscuritanists as you have corrected observed seek to infuse in present life, a meaning derived very many centuries ago - They do this in order to maintain control - after all, if the ideal society is being realized why change? What need new knowledge, for what purpose????? In this way they are exactly like the utopians of the left - both are totalitarians, reactionary, romantic and VIOLENT. Both fear change; the Obscuritanists in his misadventure to create the perfect society, sees things going from bad to worse, the utopian left by preserving the so-called perfect society of the future.

The argument against the Obscuritanists is that their credibility is zero, with obvious implications for the ideology they espouse because their ``method`` is faulty - How so?

1. Humans are not God. The relationship between the word of God to human understand, is like that of a thought and the language used to express it. We as humans cannot hope to comprehend the word of God as God does - if we did it would mean we are Gods - Blasphemy! We can only understand (comprehend) the word of God, as humans, we can only use human knowledge and reason to approach the Scriptures/Text.

2. We ``comprehend`` (interpret) text based on the knowledge (sciences - note the plural)

that we have today and the knowledge of the past (point of view/training).

3. The nature of of human knowledge is that it evolves. This means our comprehension of the scriptures/text is dynamic.

4. With the 3 points above, we can assert that it is that any claim to know the word of God is ``PROVISIONAL`` - and that to assert one point of view or another, as the only comprehension of the word of God, is error manifest.

5. Because our knowledge of today (sciences) enable a variety of comprehension of the Scriptures/Text, based on our training, that is the point of view, which we bring to the subject -we are conscious that a pluralty of understanding exist, each valid within the general framework - This allows us to assert that if this plurality exists and is valid, might we not be open to examining the validity of other ``understandings/comprehension`` within their own framework, to be valid to an adherent of that framework (that is valid for him or her OR valid

in a particular timeframe).

6. Because of the plurality of religius comprehension, because of the validity, to the adherent, of his or her religious framework, we assert that tolerance of others comprehension is central to civil and religious life.

Sattar2 usually monitors posts about blasphemy - perhaps he may give you reasons to justify your charge of me wanting death for Blasphemy - and if he should give you reasons to ``confirm`` your ``thinking`` - I make a pledge to you before Chowk, that I will be open to your charges.

You believe in one commandment - but not in one religion? Why must you make these kinds of absurd statements. Commandment as in legal or religious? Temporal or Eternal? Whacha talkin abut, eh?

Muslims got Blasphemy, you don`t - so why aren`t they more like me? Why don`t they believe as I do? What about obscuritanists and method did you not get?

Now, This business about ``war on terrorism`` and ``Islam=Terrorism`` - talk about blasphemy - anyway, some people hold that it is so - so what? some people hold the earth is flat or that you are unworthy - so what? Well, is it the ``truth``? How can we tell? Is ``Islam=terrorism`` a scientific proposition? Do you agree that it is an absurdity to posit that is? If so, how can we know? Can we get any help from ``method``? You will agree, won`t you that ``scientific method`` used to be observe, note results of observation, test observations, develop theory and test? But of course, we do not just observe, do we? We first choose, select, the object of our observation - don`t we? What is it that we reveal in our selection? is it not a ``point of view`` that we reveal in our selection of what to observe? That gravity was `invented` when an apple fell on Newton`s head? The object of our observation is never neutral to our ideology, our point of view -there is as much ``truth`` to Islam=Terrorism as one is willing to invest results of observation of that theory - Are the majority of Muslims enaged in terrorist activity? If your results suggests the answer is, yes - then one would have conclude that the proposition that islam=Terrorism is ``truth`` - But if sense should intervene and the necessity of all this theory and testing is not required - what must we make of the proposition that the West thinks Islam is terrorism - we may conclude that such statements are ignorant hyperbole. They appeal to persons not comfortable with thinking things through for themselves.

Clarifications: Kardh or Karz (the Z is the influence of Persian, whereas the J sound in words in that do not have a subcontinental origin is other influence) - no need to get hung up over it.

Interest Vs Usury. Perhaps you can help me understand is Usury the same as interest? Catholic doctrine preaches against Usury, yet I am not aware that it is understood as interest -Jesus rid the temple of money changers - but again if I understand it correctly, his stance was against Usury - Do you seek how Obscuritanism functions - The religious imagery is pure ``historicism`` - to imagine that one can creat the exact past in the present or the future. Do you see how Obscuritanism is rejection of this life? Do you see how it is utopian in nature and must be antithetical to change? What is there to change in a perfect society? All both the Obscuritanists and leftist utopians can do, is to arrest the development of change.

Re Shah (#360):

Ahmadi-Muslims are not a problem for the “Muslim world”. They only practice and preach the message of Quran … while peacefully putting up with persecution from mullahs … the guardians of faith. Just this is enough for one to see … who is causing schisms in Islam … and who is practicing the message of peace given by Islam.

Militant fundamentalism is the main enemy of Islam. This fundamentalism has caused much violence and unrest … in the name of Islam … while serving as a cover for various political agendas for the mullahs. The Islamic message of peace for all … that one should display love and kindness towards others … reflect to better understand attributes of God … make an effort to integrate patience and prayers in one’s life … sacrifice one’s comfort for others … all seem to be largely lost on these fundamentalists.

What remains are … calls for jihad … fatwas of kuffr … and defining who is, and who is not, a Muslim. One look at the shia-sunni riots … suicide bombings … and wtc attacks … and this fundamentalism starts to looks very different from the Islamic message of peace. The efforts by the militant mullahs … aimed at having Ahmadis declared as non-Muslims … did not make things better for the people. It did not reduce corruption, illiteracy, violence, poverty, lack of clean food and water and medicines and shelter for the masses. Those efforts would have been better spent on serving the humanity …by opening schools and hospitals … helping the needy and looking after the poor … if indeed the idea was to follow the principles laid out in Quran. Remember … this would have been the best form of ibadat.

Muslim nations, led by the ullema, have generally declined … socially and economically … because they are no longer following the message of Islam. Allah did not renege on His promises … it is just that we the people are no longer following the guidelines laid out in Quran … and seem to have lost the desire to serve the mankind. US policies … or Israel … or the Hindus are not to be blamed … the fault lies with us … the proud Muslims.

Unless we change our view of the world … our condition will remain the same.

re:

``To bring smiles & cheers to:

SCOUT!

and to placate(somewhat)PROGRESSIVE!``

Dear Scout,

I believe this interactor is referring to his other nicks as other entities-ah, why should the cyber world not be the playground for multiple personalities? So much leeway for them. Only, they must change their writing styles to be truly convincing....therefore, it is my opine that HA and Progressive are one and the same.

Consider:

1. The same tedious subject matters

2. The same writing styles

3. The same arbitrary punctuation

4. The same unexplored perpectives

5. The same stealing of ideas, writing tropes, parodies, poems and songs from other interactors- a dead on indicator of the Afaqui consortium`s inability to have one clear idea on his own. (By the way, wasn`t Adolph Hitler a talentless painter who channelled his pathology into fascism because he could`nt hack it as an artist?)

6. Unaccounted use of western progressive media to propigate an Islamacist agenda.

(See Jayne Cortez`s poem ``Nigeria``

``They want the oil but they don`t want the people``

In this case, its:

``They want the media, but they don`t want the democracy.`` But I digress....

But dearest Scouty,

fear not...it pains me to see you so fed up with the endless quibbling and going round on Chowk, that you are reduced to weakly admitting you will accept (gasp!) poetry. I am moved...and the paltry and slightly odiferous verses of HA Consortium...well, no self respecting person should have to endure that...so, we`ll try and provide you with the real stuff shortly...

sattar2 #341 you write ``I agree that intentions and deed are most important in the eyes of God Almighty.``

Agreed.

you write ``The spirit of Islam … the kernel … consists of accepting God Almighty in one’s life, having love, compassion towards others, understanding human suffering … and that all humanity springs from the same fountainhead … that all religions have the same divine source … that all our conflicts are man-made. This I believe is the central message of Quran.``

Basically agreed. I would add emphasis on learning - the reason God created man.

you write ``The goal is to have a person rise above the religious differences … and view all religions … and humanity … as having the same divine origins. After that … whether or not a person is interested in “formal” Islam or Quran … is entirely up to him … and none of my business.``

Agreed.

you write ``If “promoting Islam” still does not sound right … then call it “promoting peace”. I hope this makes sense.``

I think ``promoting peace`` is more accurate. Since clearly Islam is not the only religion that promotes peace.

you write ``My comments about destiny and greatness were only meant to poke fun at your inquiry … which suggested that Sattar seems to have a somewhat unhealthy level of knowledge about the giant donkey and stuff. My point was … I had no choice … it was all forced upon me.``

OK.

So we are in agreement on these basic points. Good luck with promoting peace. God knows we can all use some peace in the subcontinent nowadays.

re: shammi

...this soysauce dude is eternally bitter and angry...i don`t think he knows who feynman is...no point reasoning with idiots...

re:Reply #: 345

tahmed321,

What i meant was the left-leaning mentality in India is in a minority and is to be found in Bengal, Kerala among other places. Bidwai is pro-left and is biased. That takes away objectivity. I do not doubt his courage in bringing some contentious issues to focus. But, clearly he is in a small league when he tries to put Kalam in a bad light (if you do not believe me, take a census: how many Indians in this chowk have criticised Kalam and said he will is a bad choice).

Sridhar

Tahmed

A straw man argument. So many Assumptions you feel comfortable with - good - who am I to stand in your way.

Search for ``truth``? without a knowing subject?

Do be reasonable and not personal - If the paradigm I support presently will become untenable, my position will reflect that.