Dissing Ideologies
Zia Ahmed June 7, 2002
#375 Posted by bong_dongs on June 17, 2002 6:43:47 pm
shammi,
Some info on ``Project Pluto`` the US effort to build a nuclear powered ramjet:
http://www.nv.doe.gov/news&pubs/publications/historyreports/news&views/pluto.htm
There is also a discovery or PBS documentary on it that they run from time to time
Some info on ``Project Pluto`` the US effort to build a nuclear powered ramjet:
http://www.nv.doe.gov/news&pubs/publications/historyreports/news&views/pluto.htm
There is also a discovery or PBS documentary on it that they run from time to time
reply to this interact
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#374 Posted by satyavadi on June 17, 2002 6:43:47 pm
Tahmed321:
I addressed my post #357 to you. If you find time,I will appreciate a response.
Satyavadi
I addressed my post #357 to you. If you find time,I will appreciate a response.
Satyavadi
#373 Posted by shammi on June 17, 2002 6:43:47 pm
Re: Tahmed321 # 372
Tahmed321, I believe that India and Pakistan should resolve their differences over Kashmir through negotiations, with India accomodating some of Pakistan`s concerns. For a plebiscite to be held, a few conditions have to be met:
a) Pakistan is required to withdraw unconditionally for a plebiscite to take place (no action is expected of India until this happens) under the `49 UN Security Council Resolutions
b) The demographic balance in AJK has changed (migrants have been allowed to settle, and others forced out) -- this cannot be reversed
c) Northern Areas and the region ceded to China has to be de-annexed and China`s claims publicly revoked
d) In light of the above, Kofi Annan has himself publicly questioned whether a plebiscite is practical anymore
Barring some of the theoretical impediments above, the practical impediments are (i) what would the impact of any such vote be on the rest of India -- will it revisit Partition? and (ii) the time to have organized this plebiscite would have been early `50s (but the Indian narrative states that when Pakistan threw in its lot with CENTO and offerred US bases in Peshawar and elsewhere, Indians (allergic to any foreign intervention) were not about to give any more leverage to the Western powers that constituted the Security Council then)
Tahmed321, I believe that India and Pakistan should resolve their differences over Kashmir through negotiations, with India accomodating some of Pakistan`s concerns. For a plebiscite to be held, a few conditions have to be met:
a) Pakistan is required to withdraw unconditionally for a plebiscite to take place (no action is expected of India until this happens) under the `49 UN Security Council Resolutions
b) The demographic balance in AJK has changed (migrants have been allowed to settle, and others forced out) -- this cannot be reversed
c) Northern Areas and the region ceded to China has to be de-annexed and China`s claims publicly revoked
d) In light of the above, Kofi Annan has himself publicly questioned whether a plebiscite is practical anymore
Barring some of the theoretical impediments above, the practical impediments are (i) what would the impact of any such vote be on the rest of India -- will it revisit Partition? and (ii) the time to have organized this plebiscite would have been early `50s (but the Indian narrative states that when Pakistan threw in its lot with CENTO and offerred US bases in Peshawar and elsewhere, Indians (allergic to any foreign intervention) were not about to give any more leverage to the Western powers that constituted the Security Council then)
#372 Posted by shammi on June 17, 2002 6:43:47 pm
Re: Hobbyty
``...I cannot speak to the method or validity of this (MORI) poll...``
Please check out this website for methods/validity (Read the details on Technical Note, Sample Profiles, and Statistical Reliability):
http://www.mori.com/polls/2002/kashmir.shtml
``...I cannot speak to the method or validity of this (MORI) poll...``
Please check out this website for methods/validity (Read the details on Technical Note, Sample Profiles, and Statistical Reliability):
http://www.mori.com/polls/2002/kashmir.shtml
#371 Posted by Urstruly on June 17, 2002 4:49:29 pm
Sattar
I don`t think you are left with anything more to add to this subject:
You say:
``You are incorrect when you state the stories about old-prophet and fire-breathing-giant-donkey cannot be proven right or wrong. Now you want to pass these absurdities as a matter of faith that cannot be questioned.``
Answer:
Wrong. These stories have been questioned and were rejected by ullema some 1500 years ago. That is what I wrote in my post. What I said about being a matter of faith was the coming of Messiah. Lying and twisting words seems to be the thing that Ahmadis are best at.
You say:
In the light of the teachings of Quran, basic science, and common sense these fairy tales are proven wrong beyond any doubt.
Answer:
Agree
You say:
Ahmadis believe that Issa-ibne-Marriam was put on the cross, was rescued, recovered, and migrated eastwards, where he eventually passed away, and is buried in Kashmir. This version of events is supported by Quran, Biblical accounts, history of Kashmir, and works of several western and eastern scholars some of whom traveled to Kashmir and documented and published their findings.
Answer:
I have absolutely no problem with this contention, as long as you do not pass it as a ``Muslim`` belief. I dont care what Quadianies believe in.
You say:
This, you find confusing. On the other hand you do not find anything confusing about a two-thousand-year old prophet living in the sky. Go figure!
Reply:
Filling up the blanks with alphabets does not make an assertion strong.
You say:
The view of Ahmadis is squarely at odds with the Christian ideology. If anything your own doctrine that Issa was lifted to the sky to descend later to earth complements Christian beliefs that he was son of God and will return to earth.
Reply:
This is a blatant lie. I never said that ``Issa was lifted to the sky to descend to .`` Is a Muslim doctrine. If you some how prove that or post the actual wordings in my post, I will leave Chowk for good, otherwise will you?
You say:
While you continue to sing hymns praising the virtues of the mullahs do not forget that these mullahs continue to propagate lies against Ahmadis and you also admit to this. This, combined with the violence perpetuated by the mullahs, is enough for one to question their credibility unless of course one believes in fire-breathing donkeys.
Reply:
Mullah`s are human beings prone to err as other people. You cannot measure everyone with one scale. There are good people and bad people. Don`t forget that the issue of the circumstances surrounding Mirza Sahibs death in the letrine was also clarified by person whom you love to call a Mullah i.e. me.
You say:
On the issue of prophethood you conveniently ignore the ahadith that clearly support continuation of prophethood. This view is supported by earlier scholars as well including Mujaddid Alfe Saani, Mohayuddin Ibn Arabi, and Shah Waliullah Dehlavi. I have shown this from the Quran as well. But you continue to remain silent on the arguments and references I put forward
Reply:
I have never seen a bay sharam person like yourself. I am not sure about Mohayuddin Ibn-e-Arabi but attributing such lie to Shah Walliullah and Mujadid Alif Sani is slander. Laa`nat on one who lies.
You say:
When you fail to present arguments you selectively cite the ullema who support your views. You seem to forget that these ullema also believe in a two-thousand-year-old prophet and a fire-breathing donkey and tell us that Quran supports such absurd notions.
Reply:
I do not fail to present arguments. Period.
You say:
Your position, that all this should be accepted without question, as a matter of faith, underscores lack of confidence in mullahs and amounts to admission that Islam has been corrupted by the ullema.
Reply:
Balatant lie. I never said or took a position to say that anything should be accepted without question. If that were the case, then I have never argued about week and strong ahadith which were proven week or strong after mullahs questioned their authenticity.
I don`t think you are left with anything more to add to this subject:
You say:
``You are incorrect when you state the stories about old-prophet and fire-breathing-giant-donkey cannot be proven right or wrong. Now you want to pass these absurdities as a matter of faith that cannot be questioned.``
Answer:
Wrong. These stories have been questioned and were rejected by ullema some 1500 years ago. That is what I wrote in my post. What I said about being a matter of faith was the coming of Messiah. Lying and twisting words seems to be the thing that Ahmadis are best at.
You say:
In the light of the teachings of Quran, basic science, and common sense these fairy tales are proven wrong beyond any doubt.
Answer:
Agree
You say:
Ahmadis believe that Issa-ibne-Marriam was put on the cross, was rescued, recovered, and migrated eastwards, where he eventually passed away, and is buried in Kashmir. This version of events is supported by Quran, Biblical accounts, history of Kashmir, and works of several western and eastern scholars some of whom traveled to Kashmir and documented and published their findings.
Answer:
I have absolutely no problem with this contention, as long as you do not pass it as a ``Muslim`` belief. I dont care what Quadianies believe in.
You say:
This, you find confusing. On the other hand you do not find anything confusing about a two-thousand-year old prophet living in the sky. Go figure!
Reply:
Filling up the blanks with alphabets does not make an assertion strong.
You say:
The view of Ahmadis is squarely at odds with the Christian ideology. If anything your own doctrine that Issa was lifted to the sky to descend later to earth complements Christian beliefs that he was son of God and will return to earth.
Reply:
This is a blatant lie. I never said that ``Issa was lifted to the sky to descend to .`` Is a Muslim doctrine. If you some how prove that or post the actual wordings in my post, I will leave Chowk for good, otherwise will you?
You say:
While you continue to sing hymns praising the virtues of the mullahs do not forget that these mullahs continue to propagate lies against Ahmadis and you also admit to this. This, combined with the violence perpetuated by the mullahs, is enough for one to question their credibility unless of course one believes in fire-breathing donkeys.
Reply:
Mullah`s are human beings prone to err as other people. You cannot measure everyone with one scale. There are good people and bad people. Don`t forget that the issue of the circumstances surrounding Mirza Sahibs death in the letrine was also clarified by person whom you love to call a Mullah i.e. me.
You say:
On the issue of prophethood you conveniently ignore the ahadith that clearly support continuation of prophethood. This view is supported by earlier scholars as well including Mujaddid Alfe Saani, Mohayuddin Ibn Arabi, and Shah Waliullah Dehlavi. I have shown this from the Quran as well. But you continue to remain silent on the arguments and references I put forward
Reply:
I have never seen a bay sharam person like yourself. I am not sure about Mohayuddin Ibn-e-Arabi but attributing such lie to Shah Walliullah and Mujadid Alif Sani is slander. Laa`nat on one who lies.
You say:
When you fail to present arguments you selectively cite the ullema who support your views. You seem to forget that these ullema also believe in a two-thousand-year-old prophet and a fire-breathing donkey and tell us that Quran supports such absurd notions.
Reply:
I do not fail to present arguments. Period.
You say:
Your position, that all this should be accepted without question, as a matter of faith, underscores lack of confidence in mullahs and amounts to admission that Islam has been corrupted by the ullema.
Reply:
Balatant lie. I never said or took a position to say that anything should be accepted without question. If that were the case, then I have never argued about week and strong ahadith which were proven week or strong after mullahs questioned their authenticity.
#370 Posted by tahmed321 on June 17, 2002 3:30:48 pm
dost-mittar #366 there was an article on Pakistan Gujrat`s daulah shah kay chuhay in the Washington Post. As I recall, it did say that these were children suffering from Down`s syndrome. While it is said that thugs kidnap children and chop off their limbs in order to make them more ``marketable beggars`` (I hope this is not true!), changing the shape of the head and causing IQ deficiency (which I think is associated with Daulay Shah kay Choohay) would be beyond their abilities. So probably you are right in assuming that these are victims of Down`s syndrome (which, being genetic, may be more prevalent in the Gujrat area in Pakistan). They do seem to receive good treatment and food(being revered along with the pir), and so the arrangement may not be a bad one for a poor society like Pakistan.
#369 Posted by tahmed321 on June 17, 2002 3:30:48 pm
narain #367 Simple question: If the majority of the Kashmiris really are happy to be a part of India as you try to say with the support of figures, why doesnt the Indian government hold the plebiscite that it has not had the guts to hold in 50 years?
(And please dont give me any wishy-washy excuse, but reflect on this point honestly).
The hypocrisy behind the Indian government position and many Indian posters on the Kashmir issue is no less than that of the Pakistan government position and of many Pakistani posters. The only ones who suffer are the Kashmiri civilians getting caught in the crossfire.
There is still a long way to go before either India or Pakistan become worthy of being called a society of human beings.
(And please dont give me any wishy-washy excuse, but reflect on this point honestly).
The hypocrisy behind the Indian government position and many Indian posters on the Kashmir issue is no less than that of the Pakistan government position and of many Pakistani posters. The only ones who suffer are the Kashmiri civilians getting caught in the crossfire.
There is still a long way to go before either India or Pakistan become worthy of being called a society of human beings.
#368 Posted by tahmed321 on June 17, 2002 3:30:48 pm
hobbyty #364 I see that you have chosen not to accept my simplesuggestion of defining what you mean by freedom and then considering what it means to the average man.
You are obviously not prepared to discuss this issue in an open and reasoned manner. I wont discuss it further, except to say that in my view neither the Indian govt nor the Pakistan govt has acted with the interests of the Kashmiri people in mind.
As for you, I can only assume that you have no concern for seeking the truth for yourself, no concern for the well-being of the Kashmiri people, and that you are merely re-broadcasting the ``party line`` (i.e. the government`s position, and that of the religious parties) on this. I assume when the government position changes on this someday, you will presumably change your views accordingly. I had hoped for something better from you.
You are obviously not prepared to discuss this issue in an open and reasoned manner. I wont discuss it further, except to say that in my view neither the Indian govt nor the Pakistan govt has acted with the interests of the Kashmiri people in mind.
As for you, I can only assume that you have no concern for seeking the truth for yourself, no concern for the well-being of the Kashmiri people, and that you are merely re-broadcasting the ``party line`` (i.e. the government`s position, and that of the religious parties) on this. I assume when the government position changes on this someday, you will presumably change your views accordingly. I had hoped for something better from you.
#367 Posted by shammi on June 17, 2002 3:30:48 pm
Re: soysauce `US Patent Office Search`
I suggest that you read ```Surely You`re Joking, Mr. Feynman!` : Adventures of a Curious Character`` wherein Feynman himself describes the patent that he obtained on a nuclear powered plane, and was approached by an aerospace company to sell the patent! Feynman had obtained patent in jest, and was astounded when a company expressed serious interest.
Also, performing a search on the inventor`s name is not good enough -- often the patent belongs to the employer (Regents of the University of California, in Feynman`s case)
As regards your other remark on paternalism and chauvinism -- I suppose there are many different ways of looking at the same issue.
I suggest that you read ```Surely You`re Joking, Mr. Feynman!` : Adventures of a Curious Character`` wherein Feynman himself describes the patent that he obtained on a nuclear powered plane, and was approached by an aerospace company to sell the patent! Feynman had obtained patent in jest, and was astounded when a company expressed serious interest.
Also, performing a search on the inventor`s name is not good enough -- often the patent belongs to the employer (Regents of the University of California, in Feynman`s case)
As regards your other remark on paternalism and chauvinism -- I suppose there are many different ways of looking at the same issue.
#366 Posted by sattar2 on June 17, 2002 3:30:48 pm
Re Urstruly (#354):
You are incorrect when you state the stories about old-prophet and fire-breathing-giant-donkey cannot be proven right or wrong. Now you want to pass these absurdities as a matter of faith that cannot be questioned.
In the light of the teachings of Quran, basic science, and common sense these fairy tales are proven wrong beyond any doubt.
Ahmadis believe that Issa-ibne-Marriam was put on the cross, was rescued, recovered, and migrated eastwards, where he eventually passed away, and is buried in Kashmir. This version of events is supported by Quran, Biblical accounts, history of Kashmir, and works of several western and eastern scholars some of whom traveled to Kashmir and documented and published their findings.
This, you find confusing. On the other hand you do not find anything confusing about a two-thousand-year old prophet living in the sky. Go figure!
Moving on
The view of Ahmadis is squarely at odds with the Christian ideology. If anything your own doctrine that Issa was lifted to the sky to descend later to earth complements Christian beliefs that he was son of God and will return to earth.
While you continue to sing hymns praising the virtues of the mullahs do not forget that these mullahs continue to propagate lies against Ahmadis and you also admit to this. This, combined with the violence perpetuated by the mullahs, is enough for one to question their credibility unless of course one believes in fire-breathing donkeys.
On the issue of prophethood you conveniently ignore the ahadith that clearly support continuation of prophethood. This view is supported by earlier scholars as well including Mujaddid Alfe Saani, Mohayuddin Ibn Arabi, and Shah Waliullah Dehlavi. I have shown this from the Quran as well. But you continue to remain silent on the arguments and references I put forward
When you fail to present arguments you selectively cite the ullema who support your views. You seem to forget that these ullema also believe in a two-thousand-year-old prophet and a fire-breathing donkey and tell us that Quran supports such absurd notions.
Your position, that all this should be accepted without question, as a matter of faith, underscores lack of confidence in mullahs and amounts to admission that Islam has been corrupted by the ullema.
You are incorrect when you state the stories about old-prophet and fire-breathing-giant-donkey cannot be proven right or wrong. Now you want to pass these absurdities as a matter of faith that cannot be questioned.
In the light of the teachings of Quran, basic science, and common sense these fairy tales are proven wrong beyond any doubt.
Ahmadis believe that Issa-ibne-Marriam was put on the cross, was rescued, recovered, and migrated eastwards, where he eventually passed away, and is buried in Kashmir. This version of events is supported by Quran, Biblical accounts, history of Kashmir, and works of several western and eastern scholars some of whom traveled to Kashmir and documented and published their findings.
This, you find confusing. On the other hand you do not find anything confusing about a two-thousand-year old prophet living in the sky. Go figure!
Moving on
The view of Ahmadis is squarely at odds with the Christian ideology. If anything your own doctrine that Issa was lifted to the sky to descend later to earth complements Christian beliefs that he was son of God and will return to earth.
While you continue to sing hymns praising the virtues of the mullahs do not forget that these mullahs continue to propagate lies against Ahmadis and you also admit to this. This, combined with the violence perpetuated by the mullahs, is enough for one to question their credibility unless of course one believes in fire-breathing donkeys.
On the issue of prophethood you conveniently ignore the ahadith that clearly support continuation of prophethood. This view is supported by earlier scholars as well including Mujaddid Alfe Saani, Mohayuddin Ibn Arabi, and Shah Waliullah Dehlavi. I have shown this from the Quran as well. But you continue to remain silent on the arguments and references I put forward
When you fail to present arguments you selectively cite the ullema who support your views. You seem to forget that these ullema also believe in a two-thousand-year-old prophet and a fire-breathing donkey and tell us that Quran supports such absurd notions.
Your position, that all this should be accepted without question, as a matter of faith, underscores lack of confidence in mullahs and amounts to admission that Islam has been corrupted by the ullema.
#365 Posted by shammi on June 17, 2002 3:30:48 pm
Re: Dost-Mittar
The revolution in military affairs (especially the integration of IT in warfare) means that obsolescence of doctrine, weapons systems, capabilities is extremely rapid in today`s world. It may take less than 5 years for the balance to shift, and the neglect has occurred more recently than even `62.
I mentioned the Navy/Air Force examples only to demolish the myth about professionalism -- if the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing, there is something amiss at the highest levels of decision making.
The revolution in military affairs (especially the integration of IT in warfare) means that obsolescence of doctrine, weapons systems, capabilities is extremely rapid in today`s world. It may take less than 5 years for the balance to shift, and the neglect has occurred more recently than even `62.
I mentioned the Navy/Air Force examples only to demolish the myth about professionalism -- if the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing, there is something amiss at the highest levels of decision making.
#364 Posted by hobbyty on June 17, 2002 3:30:48 pm
Narain
Dear Narain:
How nice to hear from you - I hope you will interact more frequently. Of course the question you pose, much like Tahmed`s, is not one whose answer will be persuasive to those who have already taken a position.
The MORI poll has been mentioned before, I cannot speak to the method or validity of this poll. Of course I have been on record as suggesting that if we shall find that our theory is not supported by results/testing, then it is incumbent upon us to change our theory and not the results; However; we must remain conscious that MORI sample supports a particular opinion/point of view and that Hurriyet and the various armed factions, represent evidence in support of point of view that MORI sample may not support; at this stage I balance this method with fact that there is a great deal of fatigue among the captive Kashmiri - yet I am not convinced that this means that they willingly surrender their desire to be free or that they have freely chosen to put their lot in with India. In fact, were such a fact, with genuine public support - a giant sigh of relief would be heard in most of Pakistan - not because they do not support the captive Kashmiris desire to be free, but because they too are conscious of the price of this effort, but such is the stuff dreams are made of. The fact is that no such freely arrived at consensus will exist in captive Kashmir, as long as it is, captive kashmir.
If the ``gaurantees`` provided by Pakistan to India will stand for the next year, then I am sure the notion that the struggle of the Captive Kashmir to be free of Indian rule, will not be sustained and may have to wait for another day.
On another level, if we grant that the MORI sample is legitimate in every sense - we may conclude that a shift in the value system has taken place in captive Kashmir - a shift that will be reflected elsewhere as well.
Dear Narain:
How nice to hear from you - I hope you will interact more frequently. Of course the question you pose, much like Tahmed`s, is not one whose answer will be persuasive to those who have already taken a position.
The MORI poll has been mentioned before, I cannot speak to the method or validity of this poll. Of course I have been on record as suggesting that if we shall find that our theory is not supported by results/testing, then it is incumbent upon us to change our theory and not the results; However; we must remain conscious that MORI sample supports a particular opinion/point of view and that Hurriyet and the various armed factions, represent evidence in support of point of view that MORI sample may not support; at this stage I balance this method with fact that there is a great deal of fatigue among the captive Kashmiri - yet I am not convinced that this means that they willingly surrender their desire to be free or that they have freely chosen to put their lot in with India. In fact, were such a fact, with genuine public support - a giant sigh of relief would be heard in most of Pakistan - not because they do not support the captive Kashmiris desire to be free, but because they too are conscious of the price of this effort, but such is the stuff dreams are made of. The fact is that no such freely arrived at consensus will exist in captive Kashmir, as long as it is, captive kashmir.
If the ``gaurantees`` provided by Pakistan to India will stand for the next year, then I am sure the notion that the struggle of the Captive Kashmir to be free of Indian rule, will not be sustained and may have to wait for another day.
On another level, if we grant that the MORI sample is legitimate in every sense - we may conclude that a shift in the value system has taken place in captive Kashmir - a shift that will be reflected elsewhere as well.
#363 Posted by Urstruly on June 17, 2002 2:55:23 pm
Dost Mitter
I dont think that environment, race, geography or heredity causes this genetic disorder. I am not a geneticist but I think it is nature`s game of chance to mess up with number of chromosomes in the gametes. In west Punjab, most of these patients (lets not use the phrase Choohay from now on) are concentrated in one place in one city. They are taken in organized fashion to beg alms therefore they are more visible. Punjab (West) has a population of approximately 75 million; dividing it on an average household of 5 people, which actually is the case we get 15 million households. It is guessed that there are 5-7000 patients in gujrat which means that every 5000th hosehold has one patient with Downs Syndrome. This is a negligible ratio as compared to the total population. Do not ignore the fact that Doulay Shah has following in sindh as well that brings the ratio further down below normal. I do not know what is ratio of Down Syndrome patients in other societies. I do know for sure that in Western societies, there is a test that screens foetus for DS. The parents are then given the option to abort or keep the pregnancy.
I do not support how they are made to beg on the streets. It is true that they are physically abused. I have seen creeps fondling female patients who were begging on aboard buses and trains. It breaks ones heart to see that these forgotten children of god have an IQ lower than that of a 5 year old and still they have to go through this. But until the allegation that they are ``made`` for this purpose is proved to be true I will give the benefit of doubt to the organizers. Until then it should remain as a slap on the face of our society until we find a better life for them.
I dont think that environment, race, geography or heredity causes this genetic disorder. I am not a geneticist but I think it is nature`s game of chance to mess up with number of chromosomes in the gametes. In west Punjab, most of these patients (lets not use the phrase Choohay from now on) are concentrated in one place in one city. They are taken in organized fashion to beg alms therefore they are more visible. Punjab (West) has a population of approximately 75 million; dividing it on an average household of 5 people, which actually is the case we get 15 million households. It is guessed that there are 5-7000 patients in gujrat which means that every 5000th hosehold has one patient with Downs Syndrome. This is a negligible ratio as compared to the total population. Do not ignore the fact that Doulay Shah has following in sindh as well that brings the ratio further down below normal. I do not know what is ratio of Down Syndrome patients in other societies. I do know for sure that in Western societies, there is a test that screens foetus for DS. The parents are then given the option to abort or keep the pregnancy.
I do not support how they are made to beg on the streets. It is true that they are physically abused. I have seen creeps fondling female patients who were begging on aboard buses and trains. It breaks ones heart to see that these forgotten children of god have an IQ lower than that of a 5 year old and still they have to go through this. But until the allegation that they are ``made`` for this purpose is proved to be true I will give the benefit of doubt to the organizers. Until then it should remain as a slap on the face of our society until we find a better life for them.
#362 Posted by narain on June 17, 2002 1:34:57 pm
ref: Hobbyty #340
Dear Hobbyty,
When you speak about ``freedom for the Kashmiris``, are you quite sure that what you (and Pakistanis in general) think constitutes ``freedom`` for the Kashmiris, is the same as what they actually want? The results of a recent survey conducted by a British firm (MORI) seem to indicate otherwise. This is what they find:
-The vast majority of Kashmiris believe the correct way to bring peace to the region is through democratic elections, ending violence, and economic development.
- A very clear majority of the population 65% - believes the presence of foreign militants in Jammu and Kashmir is damaging to the Kashmir cause, and most of the rest take the view that it is neither damaging nor helpful.
-Overall, two thirds of people in Jammu and Kashmir take the view that Pakistans involvement in the region for the last ten years has been bad. Only 15% believe it has been good for the region, while 18% say it has made no real difference.
-On the issue of citizenship, overall, 61% said they felt they would be better off politically and economically as an Indian citizen and only 6% as a Pakistani citizen, but 33% said they did not know.
-More than 85% of the population, including at least 70% in each region, think the following will help to bring about peace:
1)Economic development of the region to provide more job opportunities and reduction of poverty 93%
2)The holding of free and fair elections to elect the peoples representatives 86%
3)Direct consultation between the Indian government and the people of Kashmir 87%
4)An end to militant violence in the region 86%
5)Stopping the infiltration of militants across the Line of Control 88%
-An overwhelming 92% oppose the state of Kashmir being divided on the basis of religion or ethnicity.
more at: http://www.mori.com/polls/2002/kashmir.shtml
Dear Hobbyty,
When you speak about ``freedom for the Kashmiris``, are you quite sure that what you (and Pakistanis in general) think constitutes ``freedom`` for the Kashmiris, is the same as what they actually want? The results of a recent survey conducted by a British firm (MORI) seem to indicate otherwise. This is what they find:
-The vast majority of Kashmiris believe the correct way to bring peace to the region is through democratic elections, ending violence, and economic development.
- A very clear majority of the population 65% - believes the presence of foreign militants in Jammu and Kashmir is damaging to the Kashmir cause, and most of the rest take the view that it is neither damaging nor helpful.
-Overall, two thirds of people in Jammu and Kashmir take the view that Pakistans involvement in the region for the last ten years has been bad. Only 15% believe it has been good for the region, while 18% say it has made no real difference.
-On the issue of citizenship, overall, 61% said they felt they would be better off politically and economically as an Indian citizen and only 6% as a Pakistani citizen, but 33% said they did not know.
-More than 85% of the population, including at least 70% in each region, think the following will help to bring about peace:
1)Economic development of the region to provide more job opportunities and reduction of poverty 93%
2)The holding of free and fair elections to elect the peoples representatives 86%
3)Direct consultation between the Indian government and the people of Kashmir 87%
4)An end to militant violence in the region 86%
5)Stopping the infiltration of militants across the Line of Control 88%
-An overwhelming 92% oppose the state of Kashmir being divided on the basis of religion or ethnicity.
more at: http://www.mori.com/polls/2002/kashmir.shtml
#360 Posted by hamzadafaqui on June 17, 2002 12:40:55 pm
To bring smiles & cheers to:
SCOUT!
and to placate(somewhat)PROGRESSIVE!
__________________________________________________
English Ghazal
The nation talks in urdu,the nation writes in urdu
Dear readers! that is why, I always write in urdu
Naho jub heart in the chest,tO phir tongue in the mouth kyooN?
To beautify these lines,throw some light in urdu
Poetry kee nishistaiN cultural mehfil sahee laikin
Please aye sahibaan e dil,mujhhay invite in urdu
Miree nazmoN kaa majmooaa hai yeh published urdu mein
Therefore I would like a copyright in urdu
There should be yaqueenun no milavat in the literature
Therefore I never call shub ko night in urdu
Figaar iss nuzm mein teree zubaaN urdu ho OR english
Mugur likhhay hain too ney quafiyay kyaa tight in urdu.
DILAVAR FIGAAR
SCOUT!
and to placate(somewhat)PROGRESSIVE!
__________________________________________________
English Ghazal
The nation talks in urdu,the nation writes in urdu
Dear readers! that is why, I always write in urdu
Naho jub heart in the chest,tO phir tongue in the mouth kyooN?
To beautify these lines,throw some light in urdu
Poetry kee nishistaiN cultural mehfil sahee laikin
Please aye sahibaan e dil,mujhhay invite in urdu
Miree nazmoN kaa majmooaa hai yeh published urdu mein
Therefore I would like a copyright in urdu
There should be yaqueenun no milavat in the literature
Therefore I never call shub ko night in urdu
Figaar iss nuzm mein teree zubaaN urdu ho OR english
Mugur likhhay hain too ney quafiyay kyaa tight in urdu.
DILAVAR FIGAAR
#359 Posted by hobbyty on June 17, 2002 12:40:55 pm
tahmed
You and I simply disgree on what the value of freedom is or ought to be. To you freedom is a value can may hold after one has eliminated poverty and ignorance - To me freedom is the first step towards the elimination of poverty and ignorance. Let us see which paradigm will find greater acceptance.
You and I simply disgree on what the value of freedom is or ought to be. To you freedom is a value can may hold after one has eliminated poverty and ignorance - To me freedom is the first step towards the elimination of poverty and ignorance. Let us see which paradigm will find greater acceptance.
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